And you take a risk dumping Deng and Hinrich, two guys who play hard, for say, someone like Bosh, who doesn’t particularly play that hard
Oh, Sam. You never cease to amaze.
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Illini15
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I'm not really sure why I still read anything he writes
Let's sign LeBron and dance our way to the NBA championship. It'll be so crazy!
I stopped reading him.. I used to post him but stopped that as well.
He’s so out of touch and small minded about all this. We wanna dream big. People are tired of nba hell.
Bosh versus Deng/Hinrich is ridcilous in the abstract, but I agree with the underlying point.
If the Bulls can get James without some magic sign and trade for Bosh being part of the equation, I would rather keep Deng and Hinrich than acquire Bosh. Giving one of them away for cap space to potentially sign another free agent has never made much sense to me. Then again I don’t irrationally hate either player. If the Bulls can get James they already will have their two primary scorers and they will be truly competing for a championship where all those cliched reasons for keeping both of them on the team actually matter.
by Scotter on Jun 20, 2010 1:04 PM CDT reply actions 2 recs
So would you advocate playing LeBron at SG or moving Deng to the 4?
Who would come off the bench out of Hinrich, Deng, and Taj?
More importantly, I just think if you have an opportunity to acquire a 3rd (super)star like Bosh at the price of Deng (who plays a LBJ’s position) and Hinrich, who is a middling combo guard that can be replaced in this draft by a guy like Dominique Jones, then you’ve gotta do it.
Let's sign LeBron and dance our way to the NBA championship. It'll be so crazy!
by Illini15 on Jun 20, 2010 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions 5 recs
I start the game with Deng and James on the wings.
The defensive matchups can be figured out game to game. Starting lineups play together 20 minutes per game. The rest of the time only one of them is on the floor or they are playing together at the forward spots. James changes the eqautaion, James is a second ballhandler on the court. The team has the ability to go big or go small. Playing James and Deng together on the wings is nothing like playing Deng at SG in order to play Nocioni at SF.
Taj Gibson starts at PF. Hinrich comes off the bench to backup both guard spots. If you think Dominique James can really replace Hinrich you’re nuts.
Sure, a rookie combo guard like Dominique Jones probably can't fully replace Hinrich right off the bat,
but I think it’s equally crazy to think that replacing Hinrich is really that huge of a deal, when LeBron would be stepping in for Deng and Bosh would be at PF instead of Taj Gibson. The NBA has shown year after year that stars win, and the more of them you can accrue, the better chance you have of winning a title.
I’m sorry, but Kirk Hinrich is replaceable, and he shouldn’t be part of any reason why we don’t decide to go after Chris Bosh.
Let's sign LeBron and dance our way to the NBA championship. It'll be so crazy!
by Illini15 on Jun 20, 2010 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
That stars win in the NBA is true, but way over simplified.
The very best players in league history when championships. The accumulation of stars is of marginal benefit byond that great player unless the secondary stars bring considerable contributions to the non-scoring aspects of the game.
Bosh is always significantly greater than Deng/Hinrich in the abstract. In reality even if Colangelo smoked some crack and is willing to sign and trade Bosh to Chicago the cost isn’t going to be a as simple as Hinrich/Deng. All of this Bosh sign and trade discussion is basically fantasy land anyway.
Hinrich can start and play big minutes in the NBA at two positions. He can run a team as the point guard or play off the ball. He can defend two positions better than average. He plays unselfishly and competes on both ends of the floor. What if Rose gets hurt for 15 games in the regular season, which is a very realistic possibility. You want Dominic James playing 35 minutes a night? In the Eastern Conference Finals you want Dominic James chasing Ray Allen off of screens or guarding Wade. Really think about what type of players you would want in a playoff series where there’s a constant chess match of strategies playing against the same team over and over. You can have Anthony Morrow and his 3P%, I’ll stick with Hinrich.
by Scotter on Jun 20, 2010 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions 5 recs
While you bring up some good points
I’ll take my chances if Colangelo decides to smoke crack and deal us Chris Bosh, leaving us with 2 superstars (Bosh and James) and a star in Rose. Those 3 guys + Noah, and we’re in the hunt for the title, no matter who the hell fills out the rest of the roster. Kirk Hinrich, as versatile, gritty, and experienced of a player as he might be, is not going to make that much of a difference over a guy we can draft in the first round. Or, at least enough of a difference that it wouldn’t be worth trading him and Deng in some fantasy land for Chris Bosh. There’s lots of Kirk Hinrichs out there, but there’s only so many superstars. If you can acquire a superstar at the cost of losing a couple of versatile, gritty players, but ones that aren’t terribly difficult to find, I think it’s something you have to do in order to give yourself the best possible chance at winning a title.
I just worry that your line of thinking is the reason why The Captain has never been, and will never be, traded. Glue guy and all that. I appreciate his contributions, but you’ve gotta cash in on the acquisition of a superstar if the chance is there. You can never have enough top-shelf talent, and that’s what wins.
Let's sign LeBron and dance our way to the NBA championship. It'll be so crazy!
by Illini15 on Jun 20, 2010 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Directly trading Deng and/or Hinrich for Bosh is one thing.
Dumping one of them for the possibility of signing someone is a different thing, and there are a lot of people that would advocate that on here. I’m purposefully taken this position primarily to highlight that people are mostly thinking with a reguar season mentality. Getting a superstar means thinking with a playoff mentality and the rules are different. People get too locked into simplistic thinking about a game that becomes much more complex when you’re trying to win playoff series. Hinrich and Deng are not easily replaceable. Sure you can replace their scoring with a bunch of other players. Replacing all the other stuff they do is a different story.
The upside of Hinrich/Deng for Bosh can be greatly affected by other factors such as
1. How does it impact the likelihood of James signing in Chicago?
2. How good do you think Derrick Rose will become? Again there’s only one ball.
3. What’s Bosh’s attitude going to be? I saw you post in the Bosh, “I’m a centerpiece” thread.
4. What is the new CBA really going to look like? Jerry may have a decent idea. I certainly don’t, but there are scenarios where acquiring two max players this summer hamstrings the team beyond next season.
The reason I disagree is it's not just dumping Deng/Hinrich just for the chance to get Bosh
If we dumped Deng/Hinrich and struck out on Bosh, we would still be players for Amare, Boozer, or Lee. And even if we missed out on all 4 of those guys, we would still have tons of cap space which we could spend on role players to at least partially (and possibly completely) offset the loss of value from dumping Deng/Hinrich.
Brad Miller is god.
by Poloplaya14 on Jun 20, 2010 6:37 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
i agree and would like to add to that by saying
We’ve been crapping out and sacrificing seasons for the sole purpose of a CHANCE at a free agent. So why would you retardedly stop now at the cost of hinrich and deng? We’ve been going all in for a while now so I say we keep it up and not give up here in the two weeks remaining
by sin on Jun 20, 2010 7:21 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
that's how I see it too
we’ve been dumping guys no problem.
I do think what Hinrich and Deng do is more replaceable than what Bosh can do. Give me Rose/Noah/Bosh as a start, they’re young enough to where there’d be years to build and find the rest.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 20, 2010 9:33 PM CDT up reply actions
::groan:: I lost my head and forgot that we're talking LeBron
but I guess that works even moreso. I find it more ‘regular season mentality’ to worry about Hinrich and Deng. In the playoffs they’ll need guys who can create against the toughest defenses in the league. And it’s not like Bosh is that poor of a defender (and who knows how much better he can be there with Noah next to him)
I guess like Sam we’re all speculating on Bosh’s mindset (and Rose for that matter) as a second banana. I don’t think he’s had issues playing hard. If they win it’ll be easier to cope.
The real question is the risk in moving either or both what the Bulls have ‘in hand’. Considering they’re both overpaid as it is, opening up cap space to overpay others is just worst-case, there’s the potential for signing better value players even if Bosh is off the table.
plus in this scenario we have LeBron so I can’t care about Kirk or Luol either way. I’ll thank them for their plateauing productivity allowing for this great tanking for our new savior.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 20, 2010 9:52 PM CDT up reply actions
I love all these platitutdes for Kirk that ignore he was carrying a per of less than 10
for the first 4 months of the season
by Basketball Smurf on Jun 20, 2010 10:15 PM CDT up reply actions
Haha, seriously. He's just not a very good player.
Let's sign LeBron and dance our way to the NBA championship. It'll be so crazy!
I could care less what any player's PER or Win Score or what ever linear weight
single number summation formula you want to use. They’re terrible at evaluating everyone short of a star player withn the context of a team.
Shane Battier has a PER that’s 12.0 or under since going to Houston four years ago. Would the Rockets still trade him for Rudy Gay who has put up a PER above 15 for the last three seasons? Given the way they talk about him, I suspect that they would, Derek Fisher has never had 15 PER or above in his career. How many guards do you think Phil Jackson would rather have?
indeed, if we're then going by coach praise
Hinrich is indispensable.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 20, 2010 11:24 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
and I actually think Hinrich would be great on a LeBron-led Bulls
he only has 2 years left, and the less you ask of the guy the better he is (and yes, that is a backhanded compliment)
But…I think Bosh would be a better fit, and I just don’t see much ‘risk’ in having to find the next Kirk Hinrich after a couple stars are landed. I mean, ask Phil Jackson about Fisher, but ask first if he had to lose Pau Gasol.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 20, 2010 11:39 PM CDT up reply actions
as much as it pains me to say this..
I agree. Assuming he comes off the bench and they can find a shooting guard that can shoot, I wouldn’t mind Kirk around.
There's a difference between good and undervalued
Derek Fisher has long made MLE type money despite being a capable 30mpg starter, so for the price he’s been a savvy choice to place around max contract stars. Shane Battier was a great find by Daryl Morey, but only because Battier earns $6 million a year. If Battier made $10 mil right now, it would just be another ho-hum fair contract.
Kirk and Luol are fine players, but at their contracts, they aren’t comparable to Fisher/Battier. I’d rather keep Luol now because he’s an above average starter when healthy, but at this point Kirk’s costing more than he’s providing.
Battier is a more versatile defender than Hinrich, makes less money, is asked to do even less on offense....
…and still has a higher PER. That’s kind of the point.
I think you’re falling into a trap here, too. You’re insinuating that someone is only going to use one metric, when, in fact, they wouldn’t.
Plus, Fisher has two great players ahead of him, one really good player and one good player. He’s the fifth option just about any time he’s on the court. He has the lowest USG on his team. If the Bulls had James and Bosh, Rose and Noah, then yeah, Hinrich is completely serviceable.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
But not on that contract. The problem with Kirk, as it's always been, is that contract of his.
2010 Offseason Motto: Get Greedy, Bulls. 1 top FA down (Thibs), 1 (or 2) to go.
by fundamentallysound on Jun 21, 2010 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions
Well, if he we had James and Bosh and the Chairman was willing to lock up Noah and Rose...
….I can live with two more years of a bad contract. But just one of them? Iiiii don’t know.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
My point is mostly that you can find lots of guys that do Kirk things for way cheaper than Kirk money.
Especially with a coach like Thibodeau, who somehow managed to turn Ray Allen into a passable defender.
Dominique Jones can do Kirk things at probably 1/5th the contract price.
There are plenty of guys that could do that role as well if not better than Kirk for cheaper money. Heck, even Thabo could do Kirk’s current role as well as Kirk and he makes half of what Kirk makes.
2010 Offseason Motto: Get Greedy, Bulls. 1 top FA down (Thibs), 1 (or 2) to go.
by fundamentallysound on Jun 21, 2010 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions
This year with Jones? Of course not.
In two to three years? Absolutely.
And this all assumes that Hinrich doesn’t lose another step off of his already slowing body.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Yeah, he'll need to be even more clutch-y and grabby as he slows further. More fouls and more technicals for
Captain Klank.
2010 Offseason Motto: Get Greedy, Bulls. 1 top FA down (Thibs), 1 (or 2) to go.
by fundamentallysound on Jun 21, 2010 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions
I also gotta say, for as concerned as everyone is about Joe Johnson's decline. Kirk is going to be 30 next
year and he was absolute rubbish this year. How much further will he drop over the next two years? Yikes.
I really hope we dump him.
2010 Offseason Motto: Get Greedy, Bulls. 1 top FA down (Thibs), 1 (or 2) to go.
by fundamentallysound on Jun 21, 2010 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions
Yep.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
I'm with you
I’m wondering is Lebron could play the 2 guard spot in general. There’s no law against him rebounding at the same clip as a 2 guard. If he did come here and Luol stayed I think him being the 2nd ball handler and playing 2 guard like you said makes a lot of sense
Giving one of them away for cap space to potentially sign another free agent has never made much sense to me.
i basically agree with you, except when it comes to bosh though. i just see him as significantly better than the other FAs the bulls can realistically get and too good to pass up.
"I wrote a short story a few years ago about my mother, called 'The Castrating Zionist', and now I want to turn it into a novel."
I would say that I agree that I would be hesitant to trade one away right now, before free agency.
I’d rather trade Hinrich because he’s older and even more overpaid. He’s also the one that would still have a spot on the team if the Bulls got James, Bosh, Boozer, Lee, etc.
Although… listing all of those guys now. Man, I’d much rather have Rose, Noah, James, Lee than Hinrich and no Lee.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
He is correct.
You do need people that play hard, accept their roles and play good defense.
The Thing is I can name twenty players that we can get, for less money that do this while I can only name 4-5 PF’s in the league who can score and rebound like CB4.
Right, plus....
You would be solidifying a superstar core for the next five years, with Bron & Bosh, plus and extended Rose and Noah…
Plus the Bobcats potential lottery pick in a couple years, plus our mid level exception every year (after this one)… We would be in ridiculous shape.
Ask me about Tom Thibodeau!!!
www.kidronmusic.com/podcast.html
And by this I mean...
It’s a bit much to worry about Loul & Kirk if we can build the team outlined above…
Let’s not continue to overpay for Deng, who has a large (but workable) contract now, but would be the 5th best player on a team with LeBosh. And let’s not worry about Kirk, our back up point guard, who plays out of position at shooting guard. Despite shooting less than %40 percent from the perimeter.
Ask me about Tom Thibodeau!!!
www.kidronmusic.com/podcast.html
what year is the future 1st rd draft pick for??
?
by Da Bears2333333 on Jun 20, 2010 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions
Depends
I remember reading that it’ll come no sooner than 2014 and no later than 2020, but I could be wrong. It’s something like that though.
Brad Miller is god.
I have some thoughts, and then an answer to Da Bears' question:
My 2 cents:
I really enjoy having the above-average players that are Kirk and Luol on the team. Luol is quite capable of starting at SF, but I like Kirk only as a 6th man.
Many people have made the argument that “superstars win championships.”
Well, superstars and depth win championships. And while we are infact overpaying Luol and Kirk, who are we going to sign that gives the championship depth of Glen Davis, Rasheed Wallace, Tony Allen, and Nate Robinson (for, unassumingly, the veteran minimum)?
Now, Kidron brings up an interesting point with the Bobcats draft pick, plus our draft picks each year, plus are MLE and/or trade exceptions. Because of that, I would do a trade (or, I guess, trade for cap space to get) “LeBosh” in an instant. The core of LBJ, Bosh, Rose, and Noah would be a nearly unstoppable force for the starting lineup.
But they would all wear down without championship depth, and we would not win a championship in year one. Maybe with Omer Asik you can argue center depth, maybe you’re somehow suggesting we keep Taj in this scenario and thus also have PF depth. Lebron’s been playing 40 minutes per game throughout his career, so I figure JJ can cover 8 minutes a game of SF depth (…really, I’m sure he can pull that off.) But where does that leave us with our guards?
It is for this hypothetical scenario that I truly hope we draft an outside shooter / prototypical shooting guard Thursday. Then, in some weird fantasy unrealistic scenario, we could arguably have a superstar core and solid depth.
I don’t find any of this realistic. I still maintain that if we sign either Bosh or Lebron, that’s a dream come true. Sure, the full dream might be LeBosh, but I’m not going to be like “ah, you play that one, GarPax, by only getting Lebron and keeping Kirk/Deng/Taj” or something.
that’s my say.
To DaBears:
http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nba/news/story?id=4925000
Forman said on “The Afternoon Saloon” on ESPN 1000 that the first year for the pick would be 2012, and it would be lottery protected that year. Forman said the protection would decrease each year after that for “four or five years.”
A true friend stabs you in the front - Oscar Wilde
I see...
so the cost of not giving us the pick sooner rather then later is the lottery protection. The more years they keep it, greater is the chance they have in losing a pick that’s worth more.
so pretty much if they have a good year 2012 we will probably be getting the pick
by Da Bears2333333 on Jun 20, 2010 9:12 PM CDT up reply actions
ugh, I knew that'd be Sam
I wish he wrote less hard
BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 20, 2010 9:31 PM CDT reply actions
I think what bothers me most is
what’s with the implication that Bosh doesn’t play hard?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 20, 2010 9:40 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
yeah it comes out of nowhere
how do you measure if someone is playing hard? It certainly isn’t by results…
by Basketball Smurf on Jun 20, 2010 10:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Well there are some tell-tale signs
Like when a senior citizen makes the All-rookie 1st team, he’s probably trying pretty damn hard.
Brad Miller is god.
by Poloplaya14 on Jun 20, 2010 10:51 PM CDT up reply actions
It's the same train of thought that Pau Gasol was 'soft' until the Lakers won 2 straight titles with him as their 2nd best player
Moral: A good portion of the media are idiots, and some seems to be a crazy one these days. It’s a shame, because he does some great reporting and has a really good sense of humor, but some of the stuff he says these days is way out of left field and has no factual basis.
Let's sign LeBron and dance our way to the NBA championship. It'll be so crazy!
He's a winner.
All that matters.
by Grinder in Training on Jun 21, 2010 7:53 AM CDT up reply actions
no, no he's not
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Which would you rather try reading?
Bleacher report or Sam Smith? I don’t know I might stab myself in the stomach.
So, doesn't that make Hinrich's putrid season all the more embarrassing in the eyes of Sam?
I mean, the guy tried so hard and still couldn’t remain an average offensive player?
"Boozer's dumb ass jumped. So I dunked on his ass."-Joakim Noah
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