Monday Vinny Del Negro update: Still wind-twisting
by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 3, 2010 8:32 AM CDT
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PrintUPDATE: McGraw this afternoon had not much of an update.
I was hoping for something more definitive, but here's the best we can get on VDN news:
Vinny Del Negro met with Bulls Chairman Jerry Reinsdorf on Sunday, but the embattled coach's 11th-hour argument to keep his job won't change what the Tribune has reported since December 2009:
Del Negro is expected to be dismissed with one year and roughly $2 million remaining on his guaranteed three-year contract. Barring a snag, the Bulls will make this news official Tuesday.
At that point, executive vice president of basketball operations John Paxson and general manager Gar Forman will embark on a search focusing on candidates with previous NBA head-coaching experience.
(emphasis mine, since I'm not sure what the heck that means)
July 1st is two months away so there's still some time, but the sooner the better when it comes to the coaching search. A bit discouraging that our two-headed basketball executive isn't mentioned as in trouble, and that they'll be leading the search. Which then I suppose Reinsdorf will have to meddle approve.
As ChicagoNow points out this morning, it's strange that Reinsdorf is having this meeting directly with VDN in the first place. While it's indeed his $2m, it'd be nice if the Chairman left it to his basketball executives to fire their coach that they all agree (and I do as well) should be fired. And GarPax can't be happy that their boss is having a meeting where Vinny will have to denigrate their job to save his own.
This way doesn't bode well for the hope of a newly streamlined front office, and the upcoming search (and free agency) will be business as usual.
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I really don't understand the whole groundswell to keep Vinny.
He’s mediocre at best, but can be downright awful at times. I give the players almost all of the credit for playing hard, especially Noah. It seemed like he was the guy that was leading the team and giving all the effort that people are lauding Vinny for.
And the biggest thing that nobody seems to be mentioning is that Vinny would be a lame duck if he coached this year. Why would a free agent want to step into that kind of situation? And even if they didn’t care, why would the organization want that? Vinny being gone is great news, he’s extremely replaceable. Now, if you wanna make the case that Pax and Gar should follow, that’s a different story.
If you're reading this signature, there's a good chance you don't like Vinny Del Negro.
by Juiceboxjerry on May 3, 2010 8:38 AM CDT reply actions 5 recs
If he came back for a third year
I think it’s safe to assume they’d extend him so it wasn’t a lame duck situation. He wouldn’t come back with just one year left on his contract. By now, they know if they want him here or not, so if they did want to keep him they’d have added to the contract before next season starts.
"A common mistake made by baseball fans is to call a pitcher unhittable when that pitcher is not Matt Thornton." - Hardball Times
by Grinder in Training on May 3, 2010 8:52 AM CDT up reply actions
I think it’s safe to assume they’d extend him so it wasn’t a lame duck situation.
Do you think that would be a good thing?
If you're reading this signature, there's a good chance you don't like Vinny Del Negro.
by Juiceboxjerry on May 3, 2010 8:56 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm not sure what you are asking?
If you’re asking if I think we should keep him, my answer is no, I think it would be a terrible thing to bring him back. He needs to be fired, while the players like him, and play hard for him, he is not a good coach.
If you’re asking, if we did choose to keep him, what would I do in that situation, I think you need to extend him for two years, so he can focus on coaching and not his contract.
"A common mistake made by baseball fans is to call a pitcher unhittable when that pitcher is not Matt Thornton." - Hardball Times
by Grinder in Training on May 3, 2010 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions
Ok
Just sounded like you thought it was a good idea for them to bring him back and extend him for a couple years. I guess I agree that if they were to bring him back, extending him would be logical.
If you're reading this signature, there's a good chance you don't like Vinny Del Negro.
by Juiceboxjerry on May 3, 2010 10:13 AM CDT up reply actions
Why do you think it's safe to assume they'd extend him?
If they bring him back, I would assume it’s just because they don’t want to pay another coach and him at the same time more than anything else. There have been lame duck coaches before so it’s not like it would be strange for them to do that.
Joakim on whether he ever tried tennis: "I played a little bit. If anybody on the Bulls wanted to play me, I would kick their ass."
Because he doesn't make all that much money
There’s no reason for it. Lame duck coaches are usually caused by a guy having an outlier season that made the team rethink their opinion of the guy and now want another year to see him. Or the coach has demanded too high a salary so the team wants another year to see if he’s worth it. I don’t consider taking an average team to a .500 record an outlier by any means. They know exactly what they have. They either like it or don’t. They aren’t going to into the season w/ a lame duck coach.
"A common mistake made by baseball fans is to call a pitcher unhittable when that pitcher is not Matt Thornton." - Hardball Times
by Grinder in Training on May 3, 2010 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Can't speak for everyone
Personally, it’s not so much that I want Vinny to be the coach next season.
It’s (a) I don’t necessarily trust them to hire someone better, especially considering that Vinny would likely be better next season with another off-season of work and two years experience to build on. Say what you will about how idiotic some of his decisions are in the first place, he has improved. However simplistic his offense, the guys know it now and look good when they execute (which might be even more troubling if you believe the reports about certain players having trouble picking schemes up). And the guys did play hard and not quit.
(b) I think in the objective sense of things, Vinny has done well for a complete novice. That doesn’t excuse the FO for hiring a complete novice as head coach in the first place, but that’s not Vinny’s fault. When you consider the injuries and team makeup, I think Vinny at a minimum met expectations results-wise, which is how we usually judge sports. Sure, a better coach might have squeezed even more out – but there are also a lot of coaches that would have done worse. And that just feels like a harsh standard for firing a guy hypothetically.
© Most of all, the FO has handled it horribly, dating all the way back to the “imminent firing” reports back in December. Sure, they have the right to part ways, “thank Vinny for his hard work,” and hope for something better – and in spite of suggestions to the contrary here, the org doesn’t have complete control over the media – but I have no respect for how they’ve gone about it. As yfBB pointed out above, “barring a snag” is ridiculous – if the decision has been made, fire him and let everyone get on with it.
This part doesn’t make Vinny a better coach, obviously – but it sure makes him more sympathetic. And outside of the fans who watch the team day-in-and-day-out, the rest of the world is seeing a coach who made the playoffs two years straight in spite of injuries, trades, and no experience, and who is now getting treated like total crap in return.
by wjb1492 on May 3, 2010 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
i just dont buy the vinny did ok argument
I attribute I’d say maybe 5% of the past two years success to vinny
The only two reasons we survived last year were Gordon and rose
The only two reasons we made it this year were rose and Noah
Vinny is also the one who decided to play Gordon.
Even though management would rather have him not play him…as seen by Sefolosha starting over him in 08-09.
We’ve seen some good defense from Vinny’s team this year, and that is attributable to coaching.
His offensive sets free people up for open shots. Our players just suck at making them. When he had Gordon and Salmons at the end of 2009, he has one of the best offenses in the league.
The guys not a bad coach. He’s been an average to above average coach. The guy is a lot like Doc Rivers imo. He will take you as far as the talent can go.
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he is not a good coach sorry
Gorodons increased playing time was due to a change in coaching philosophy from skiles to vinny
he only started gordon
after hinrich got injured…
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
by Jaina on May 3, 2010 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Can Vinny play the guys he wants to play?
Apparently not.
12/31/08: Fire Vinny Del Negro.(upd: 1/7/10)
by NBA Observer on May 3, 2010 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions
correct me if im wrong
“as seen by sefolosha starting over him in 08-09.”
del negro was the coach then. your argument is invalid.
http://ExtendtheGame.blogspot.com
read that wrong.
regardlesss it wasnt managment’s decision to play sefolosha. he was left over from the skiles era as the starter.
vinny changed that because a) sefolosha sucked ass b) gordon fit his 3 guard lineup system much better
um, so i didnt read that wrong
vinny was the coach in 08-09. he started sefolosha over gordon, not “management” or “the jackass who shall remain nameless who finished out the 07-08 season.” i dont care what coaches before him did, it was his team and he started sefolosha over gordon.
http://ExtendtheGame.blogspot.com
so youre agreeing with me that hes a bad coach right?
all i was saying was that he was trying to say that vinny made a correction which was a good move to counter management’s decision
i was trying to say that management had nothing to do with it and that it was all del negro making the mistake to keep him in the lineup in the first place
by sin on May 3, 2010 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions
he started hinrich
before he went to starting gordon. hinrich got injured, so he finally conceded to starting gordon after that.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
yup theres that too
hooray for vinny, he started our best 2 guard after learning that thabo is pathetic and hinrich got hurt. and it only took paxson threatening his life for him to realize that rose needs to be on the court in crunch time.
these pro-vinny arguments are such reaches it’s not even funny. “but he played the right rotations.” only when management filled the end of the bench with useless players, or when players got hurt. “we played good offense last year.” with really good offensive players. “we played good defense this year.” with really good defensive players. “we tried hard.” with players who always try hard. christ can’t we expect more than the bare minimum from a coach? is that apparently too much to ask?
http://ExtendtheGame.blogspot.com
by Calogero on May 3, 2010 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions 5 recs
recd a thousand times
The only real reason to keep vinny is if a guy like bosh comes out and says “i want to play for vdn” our players will give vdn their vote of confidence because all of them are real nice guys (except deng, hes a jerk who will undoubtedly say something like “its nice having a real practice, its been like forever since we have had one” or something jerkface and underhanded not to mention sneaky)
i dont hate vdn, and i wouldnt mind giving him an extra year if we already had bosh (and kept gordon or got a decent shooting guard) but the case is that we dont have a free agent, and keeping vdn doesnt make things better-
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
well said.
exactly what i was arguing as well.
the only ONLY thing i may give vinny credit for is that he didnt quit when it got rough and seemingly the team took that mentality on thats about the closest thing to compliment i can give
Ummm
We’ve seen some good defense from Vinny’s team this year, and that is attributable to coaching.
While it’s usually the case that defense is a product of scheme, the Bulls team was composed almost entirely (save Derrick) of guys that were defensive talents first. Replacing Gordon with Hinrich (this was a small part of it), getting Deng back in the SF slot (this was the biggest part of it), and Derrick and Joakim’s improvements were almost entirely the reason for the Bulls resurgence on defense. It had nothing to do with Vinny.
by fundamentallysound on May 3, 2010 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions
taj is a decent enough defender too
and, as you mentioned, rose’s d improved greatly from his rookie year to this season (although he obviously still isn’t a particularly good defender). vinny had a team of mostly good defenders and they played above average defense (i think we were 11th in def efficiency); must be all that coaching.
oh, i forgot, were supposed to credit the basketball genius that is del negro for any and all improvements rose made because, you know, first overall draft picks who are only 21 can’t be expected to improve on their own.
http://ExtendtheGame.blogspot.com
just think
if we took Beasley instead, he’d be putting up 30-15’s with VDN “developing” him!
by M 80 on May 3, 2010 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
but it seems like the open shots that the bulls get are either created by the fact that
derrick is awesome and defenses collapse on him, or the open shots are exactly those shots which defenses are willing to concede to opponents: 17-22 foot 2s.
there is something awesome about Pargo, though.
Seriously. It’s kind of awe inspiring: he WILL shoot. He has no conscience. No remorse. He will shoot – the situation, the opponent, the country. He could be in zero gravity floating in orbit. The dude would be jacking up shots. And missing.
-MPG
People need to quit with the whole "But he made the playoffs!" thing
He barely got us in, the team was .500 two years in a row. And we actually do have a pretty talented roster. Also, he gets credit for developing players, I disagree. While Rose has become a great player and incredible scorer, there’s still a lot of areas of his game that leave a lot to be desired. Something that a new/better coach would be great for. And screw this thought that it;s the front offices fault. That’s fine, maybe it was, but why do we have to be punished with a bad coach because of it? I’d like to see em all go, but if we can’t they should still fire Vinny.
If you're reading this signature, there's a good chance you don't like Vinny Del Negro.
by Juiceboxjerry on May 3, 2010 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Making the playoffs is a legitimate checkpoint
It divides the league in half. As long as coaches are fired for missing the postseason, no matter how illogical it would be to expect their team to make it, people will keep pointing to making the playoffs as “success.”
And yes, we have some talent on the roster. We also have no depth whatsoever and lost quite a few games to injuries.
And while I’d agree I didn’t get my point across very clearly, what I was trying to say is that the FO stringing Vinny along like this is creating a sympathetic figure – the groundswell to keep Vinny has less to do (imo) with ability and more to do with people sympathizing with how he’s being hung out there, and this ongoing time period of “firing imminent but not yet official” is allowing all those arguments to gain momentum.
Had they fired him right after the final game, I don’t think you’d have this. People would just move on.
The front office sucks and they're awful at handling things like this
And they have made Vinny the sympathetic figure, there’s no doubt about it. But to say that he deserves to keep his job because of these things is just ridiculous.
If you're reading this signature, there's a good chance you don't like Vinny Del Negro.
by Juiceboxjerry on May 3, 2010 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm not saying he deserves to keep his job
At the same time, I think there’s a decent argument that he doesn’t deserve to be fired from his job.
It depends on which direction you look at it, and whether you measure Vinny against what is reasonable to expect from a guy in his situation or against some objective standard of “good coach.”
And just to reiterate
I’m not saying I want Vinny to keep his job. I just think the FO put itself in an incredibly awkward position, which it is making worse every single day that passes without actually doing something official.
I think that's a bit of an exaggeration
It’d be one thing if the other coaching options were getting hired left and right. It’s not like we’ve lost any options, and it’s not like Chris Bosh is signing with a team any time soon. A few extra days is a bit annoying, but in the grand scheme of things I don’t think it’s going to matter.
Not to mention, they’ve known for months they are going to fire Vinny, I’d like to think they have a good idea of who they want to talk to already.
"A common mistake made by baseball fans is to call a pitcher unhittable when that pitcher is not Matt Thornton." - Hardball Times
by Grinder in Training on May 3, 2010 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions
Interviews have started.
The sixers are interviewing, the hornets are interviewing. The Bulls are not. Yes, the Bulls at the very least will be working from a contracted coaching pool once Vinny actually gets fired. ‘Process’ is slowing the FO and getting in the way of the coaching search now.
Bosh or Bust
by JockstrapNoah on May 3, 2010 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions
exactly.
not a huge deal yet, but technically they’re already behind.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 3, 2010 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions
Yes, they just started..
Two days is not going to ruin everything for them.
"A common mistake made by baseball fans is to call a pitcher unhittable when that pitcher is not Matt Thornton." - Hardball Times
by Grinder in Training on May 3, 2010 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions
The Bulls have a history
of moving slowly. They always choose ‘process’ over ‘time’ without acknowledging that ‘time’ is really important. Two days is not a big deal, but the slow team did not get ahead of the game.
Bosh or Bust
by JockstrapNoah on May 3, 2010 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm talking specifically about the situation with Vinny
They hired him with no experience.
Year 1 – they foisted assistant coaches on him, which reportedly didn’t work out at all. They told him to play the rookie PG – even if it wasn’t the best call in the moment, it was all about “the future.” The team makes the playoffs and has a reasonable shot at getting to the second round.
Year 2 – they let a huge part of the offense go to another team. Guys still on the team are out or playing through injuries. There are stories of an imminent firing midseason which the FO does absolutely nothing to put to bed. The FO repeatedly does things publicly that cast Vinny in a negative light. One of his bosses subjects him to a physical altercation in the workplace. The org suggests repeatedly that this is a throw away season. The team makes the playoffs again anyway, and is more competitive against the top seed than almost anyone expected.
Post year 2 – the FO wants to part ways with Vinny. Instead of just doing it, they drag it on for a week post season. ’dorf listens to his best pitch to keep his job – which is followed by reports that the Bulls will fire Vinny. Instead of just firing him and being done with it.
So in summary, they hired a guy with no experience, they set ambiguous standards of “success” for him, they don’t fire him when the team is playing like crap in December, and are now in a position of firing someone who didn’t “suck” but didn’t do great either – and are dragging it out in a way that casts Vinny as the sympathetic figure. Not only that, reporters are now filling the void by asking players about it and writing stories about the team liking Vinny.
All they needed to do was announce immediately that he wouldn’t be back, thank him for all his hard work, say they’re pleased with where the team is at but feel a change is necessary to “take the next step.” In other words – act like any of the functional organizations in the league.
by wjb1492 on May 3, 2010 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Yep, that pretty much sumarizes why our org sucks
I got the skills to pay the bills and that's about it
by Rose Colored Goggles on May 3, 2010 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I’m not saying he deserves to keep his job
At the same time, I think there’s a decent argument that he doesn’t deserve to be fired from his job.
Really? Come on now, that’s just silly. It sounds to me like you know he should get canned, but you’re feeling a little sorry for him, so you’re trying to stick up for him a little. That’s fine by me, as long as actually gets canned.
If you're reading this signature, there's a good chance you don't like Vinny Del Negro.
by Juiceboxjerry on May 3, 2010 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think it's more of an arbitrary checkpoint
If the Bulls lost to the Raptors the last week of the season, and they’re out, does that fundamentally shift VDN’s coaching credentials?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 3, 2010 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions
Exactly..
The fact is we’d probably have a better playoff seed if we have a good coach. Just because the team was good enough to make the playoffs doesn’t mean the coach did a good job.
"A common mistake made by baseball fans is to call a pitcher unhittable when that pitcher is not Matt Thornton." - Hardball Times
by Grinder in Training on May 3, 2010 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions
A good coach
would have prevented Rose, Noah and Deng from getting injured? Or would he have won with Pargo, JJ, and Chris Richard playing major minutes against good competition?
The Bulls were on track to get the 5 seed in the East until those injuries happened. I would also argue that no coach would have made the Bulls better than CLE, ORL, BOS, or ATL, especially after those midseason trades to give away Salmons and Tyrus.
Vinny: "[Thrust] means pace, it means getting the ball out, it means getting your back to the sidelines, it means extending your outlets, it means getting the ball up the court into our early offense with plenty of time."
by runningman on May 3, 2010 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Only 3 games behind Charlotte
To move back up a spot. And it’s my opinion Vinny’s poor coaching was enough of a difference to make that up.
"A common mistake made by baseball fans is to call a pitcher unhittable when that pitcher is not Matt Thornton." - Hardball Times
by Grinder in Training on May 3, 2010 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
No point arguing on opinions
Vinny: "[Thrust] means pace, it means getting the ball out, it means getting your back to the sidelines, it means extending your outlets, it means getting the ball up the court into our early offense with plenty of time."
by runningman on May 3, 2010 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'd say absolutely
Which is not to say it makes him any different as a coach. It’s the same reason Doc Rivers went from sucking it up to being a great coach overnight. Because “credentials” depends on a whole hell of a lot more than actual coaching talent and ability.
Do you honestly believe, if the Bulls had the same record as they do but Toronto hadn’t free-fallen quite so far and made the playoffs instead, that there would be no mention of Vinny failing to make the post-season?
by wjb1492 on May 3, 2010 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
There would be mention of it
By people who don’t watch the games. He was a bad coach, his making or not making the playoffs should not have mattered to anyone making a decision in the Bulls front office, or anyone who watched the games.
"A common mistake made by baseball fans is to call a pitcher unhittable when that pitcher is not Matt Thornton." - Hardball Times
by Grinder in Training on May 3, 2010 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions
The only reason I think making the playoffs counts in his favor this season
is because it’s reflective of the fact that the team didn’t quit on him when it was looking seriously unlikely that they’d have a shot at 8th. And no, record and playoff appearances shouldn’t matter, but they do anyway.
But I assumed jbj was talking about the groundswell among the media and non-BaBers. I don’t see much support for Vinny keeping his job around here. But I can see the argument for it.
And even on BaB I believe the “not making the playoffs” thing would be brought up as a nail in the coffin. You may not want to place any credit for it at Vinny’s feet, but the absence of the postseason would be used to crucify him.
winning a title is less arbitrary :)
Rivers also already did the ‘overachieving 41-win team’ and won a coach of the year award for it in Orlando, which also puts him ahead of VDN.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 3, 2010 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Vinnt did a "nice" job...
Good luck in your future endeavors…
"When I played pro football, I never set out to hurt anyone deliberately - unless it was, you know, important, like a league game or something." ~ Dick Butkus
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on May 3, 2010 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions
I still believe this is just a dog and pony show.
They are trying to look fair, like they really did consider Del Negro to return. Or they’re just retarded.
i fear the latter
http://ExtendtheGame.blogspot.com
Maybe they'll offer the job to LeBron
He’s coaching the Cav’s anyway. I wonder if that would be a convenient way around the salary cap, if you let him be the head coach and paid him $10 mil per year plus his salary?
The NBA already closed that player-coach loophole.
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The meetings
Could it have anything to do with JR wanting to make sure he had the full story on the fight between Paxson and Vinny, and making sure he wasn’t going to have more come out later?
"A common mistake made by baseball fans is to call a pitcher unhittable when that pitcher is not Matt Thornton." - Hardball Times
by Grinder in Training on May 3, 2010 8:51 AM CDT reply actions
that's certainly possible
that any delay is due to the possible legal implications of the ‘fight’.
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"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 3, 2010 9:24 AM CDT up reply actions
JR is negotiating the buyout.
Didn’t Skiles want his buyout like series of payments made over time. As apposed to a lump sum? I’m sure JR is trying to go over the details to muzzle VDN about the organization.
I think Skiles actually got it all up front
it’s just that the Bulls budgeted it as ‘coaching money’ over the course of a few seasons.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 3, 2010 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions
Yea, anything is possible
I’m not too pissed that this has taken a little while. There could be a lot of different reasons that we as fans may not know about. The thing that would bother me is if they drag ass again on hiring a new coach.
KC has said for a while that this was inevitable, I believe that. So if that’s the case, this thing should be widdled down to a couple guys already at least, at best they should already know the guy they want. It’s not like that much has changed since two years ago as far as candidates are concerned, and they basically interviewed everyone and their mother then. So the next hire should happen very quickly if they have any brains at all. Unless they were waiting for a coach that has a team still playing right now, which I doubt.
If you're reading this signature, there's a good chance you don't like Vinny Del Negro.
by Juiceboxjerry on May 3, 2010 10:20 AM CDT up reply actions
Doug Collins as the next Bulls coach.
This story is moving fast. It appears that Vinny is gone and Doug Collins is in play. Despite his needing Psychiatric care during the first sign of adversity I think Collins would be a great hire. Notice Doug met with Philly for 5 hours yesterday and Philly is going on with their search. Pax and JR trust Collins. I am rooting for Doug Collins as our next coach. In the past Collins has been reluctant to pursue coaching opportunities saying he would rather stay in broadcasting. A five hour interview shows significant interest. Now the Bulls need to move and sign Collins.
I actually agree that this will happen
But what do you mean “the story is moving fast”? there’s been nothing written about this anywhere that I’ve seen and the link you gave is only about Collins interviewing with the Sixers and saying he was “intrigued”. Did I miss something?
If you're reading this signature, there's a good chance you don't like Vinny Del Negro.
by Juiceboxjerry on May 3, 2010 10:33 AM CDT up reply actions
Collins seems committed to coaching again and my intuition tells me this is going to happen.
My intuition is that it is news that Collins spent 5 hours yesterday with the 76ers. This is a change for Collins who in the past has never showed this much interest in coaching. Vinny should be fired today or tomorrow. The Bulls know Collins really well. One coversation with him and it is done. There is no way Collins coaches the 76er mess over the Bulls. My guess – Collins is coach of the Bulls by the weekend.
So Jerry Reinsdorf, who personally decided to veto Doug Collins as head coach two summers ago
Is now convinced that his personal relationship won’t be a problem anymore?
"Boozer's dumb ass jumped. So I dunked on his ass."-Joakim Noah
by Ozzie Montana on May 3, 2010 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions
That's easy
I don’t ever think that was the reason Doug didn’t get the job. That sjust sounds like bullshit anyway. What happened is, Reinsdorf knew that team wouldn’t compete for anything and wanted to see how the team progressed, while keeping an eye on 2010 free agency.
So Vinny was brought in, with the idea that he wouldn’t be too hard to get rid of in a couple years. And Reinsdorf tells Collins that if he still felt like coaching and the team looks like it could contend, he can get the job. Why would he want Doug to coach that team when they could have been awful (no one knew if Rose was gonna be good)? So now the situation is a little more clear cut, and a better situation for his friend. Plus Collins apparently loves Lindsey Hunter and we’re keeping him around for some reason…
If you're reading this signature, there's a good chance you don't like Vinny Del Negro.
by Juiceboxjerry on May 3, 2010 11:07 AM CDT up reply actions
Dorf has a big problem
sperating frienship and buisness, he lets his emotions get involved, I don’t know if Collins will be the coach, Collins is a son-friend to dorf, he doesn’t want to fire him twice, imo, Dorf get the hell out the way, just CTC, and Let GarPax do their job and stop meddling.
by QUINTEN DALEY on May 3, 2010 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions
that's not too crazy
no crazier than the initial excuse not to hire him
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 3, 2010 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions
I agree
The only thing that gives me a little pause is that apparently in one of his columns recently Sam Smith said there was zero chance of it happening. Although Sam can be a little/a lot wacky at times, he does know this franchise very well, so I wonder what would make him so certain. Other than that you’re right, all signs point to Collins
If you're reading this signature, there's a good chance you don't like Vinny Del Negro.
by Juiceboxjerry on May 3, 2010 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions
Collins coaching interest has dramatically changed
My sense is that Collins was convincing he liked broadcasting and was not interested in coaching. The 5 hour meeting with Philly yesterday is the big change. He appears to now to want to coach. Also the liklihood of the Bulls being successful 2010 – 11 is much higher today than 2 years ago. If I remember JR was frightened he would have to fire Collins which would hurt their friendship. A quick fire is less likely with the Bulls today than the Bulls of two years ago. I think this is a good fit.
Collins would slow this offense down hard
He’s a big name that gets respect but it would be dumb to hire someone who won’t fully take advantage of these players
the whole staff needs to go
I don’t think throwing Vinny under the bus yet again will make the difference this upcoming year. I think owing Vinny 2mil will come into play when deciding next years coach anyway. Maybe add Pippen as an assistant for a year and let him walk into the HC spot the following year.
don't let the bed bugs bite
it’s strange that Reinsdorf is having this meeting directly with VDN in the first place.
’Nothing strange bout that…Jerry is in BAWSE mode
"The Bulls Are Back" - D. Stern (2010)
Most organizations respect the chain of command
so as to respect the various authorities of each participant. That the Bulls don’t do that, that they have 4 participants with ambiguously overlapping authorities, is strange.
Bosh or Bust
by JockstrapNoah on May 3, 2010 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions
Agreed, the owner doesn't
allow the GM to hire the coach he wants, but is forced to hire a guy he didn’t want
by QUINTEN DALEY on May 3, 2010 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions
with all the bad shows on tv lately
I wish they’d make a drama of the bulls fo
by sin on May 3, 2010 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
He did it for the White Sox..
So you know JR is OK with it.
"A common mistake made by baseball fans is to call a pitcher unhittable when that pitcher is not Matt Thornton." - Hardball Times
by Grinder in Training on May 3, 2010 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions
and it should be from kirk's point of view
just so we could have him be the face of the show
by sin on May 3, 2010 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions
The coaching search shouldn't be this complicated.
Bulls are ready to step up into the elite of the NBA. Time to get a real head coach. There are only a few options available that are worthy of coaching an elite team.
The list of candidates is basically Avery Johnson, Jeff Van Gundy, and Doug Collins. Go get one of them, and you’re done. Really simple.
But this will end up being a process, and we’ll end up interviewing Dwane Casey and Tyrone Corbin and end up with a coach worse than Del Negro.
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then we're screwed anyway
this is like the argument that we should not sign a non-elite FA because we won’t go into the tax to compensate for a ‘bad’ contract. Gotta at least pretend that the Org. wants to win, or else these arguments get even more depressing.
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"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 3, 2010 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions
Agreed.
If you don’t think they are willing to get the right coach, or pay the luxury tax in the next few years if they end up with a superstar, might as well find a new team to root for or wait until JR dies or sells the team.
"A common mistake made by baseball fans is to call a pitcher unhittable when that pitcher is not Matt Thornton." - Hardball Times
by Grinder in Training on May 3, 2010 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions
Lou Canellis takes viewer comments on Chicago Bulls’ coach, Vinny Del Negro.
"The Bulls Are Back" - D. Stern (2010)
lol...i could have wrote down the whole transcript
but its monday bro..and im mad lazy today..lol
"The Bulls Are Back" - D. Stern (2010)
Pax does if he wants to keep his job.
"A common mistake made by baseball fans is to call a pitcher unhittable when that pitcher is not Matt Thornton." - Hardball Times
by Grinder in Training on May 3, 2010 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Genious is fleeting
Skiles didn’t look like such a genius as Salmons and Jennings through up brick after brick game 6 and 7. He had the same look when the Bulls seem to give up on him just before he was fired.
salmons finally became salmons
and jennings is still young so i give him a pass
i think the bucks will be back better next year with bogut
Aren't the White Sox pretty shitty?
The Chairman needs a distraction. Meddle mode ON!
12/31/08: Fire Vinny Del Negro.(upd: 1/7/10)
It's really funny
because I’m a Cubs fan, but not a White Sox hating Cubs fan like a lot of people. I just don’t root for or against them. But every year I find myself hating the White Sox more and more only because of Reinsdorf.
If you're reading this signature, there's a good chance you don't like Vinny Del Negro.
by Juiceboxjerry on May 3, 2010 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions
I find a lot of Cubs fans share your sentiment, except most don't give two shits about the Bulls.
They just hate Reinsdorf.
"Boozer's dumb ass jumped. So I dunked on his ass."-Joakim Noah
by Ozzie Montana on May 3, 2010 1:53 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Why would Cubs fans hate Reinsdorf?
Should be focused on hating the tribune company that ran the team so poorly. It’s not Reinsdorf’s fault the Cubs never win the World Series.
"A common mistake made by baseball fans is to call a pitcher unhittable when that pitcher is not Matt Thornton." - Hardball Times
by Grinder in Training on May 3, 2010 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions
Reinsdorf was hating on Cuban,
who should be the Cubs owner.
by QUINTEN DALEY on May 3, 2010 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions
It's not like Reinsdorf
Is the only voice in the room. If the rest of MLB wanted Cuban, it would have happened. I realize Reinsdorf is powerful in MLB, but if the rest of the league wanted Cuban to be there, it would have happened.
"A common mistake made by baseball fans is to call a pitcher unhittable when that pitcher is not Matt Thornton." - Hardball Times
by Grinder in Training on May 3, 2010 4:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Who knows, die-hard Cubs fans are not the most rational of people.
HAHA GO SOXX WE RULE 2005 WAS AWESOME
"Boozer's dumb ass jumped. So I dunked on his ass."-Joakim Noah
by Ozzie Montana on May 4, 2010 1:26 AM CDT up reply actions
Vinny needs "hand"
I have no idea why VDN wanted to stick around and plead his case when he knew already that he was going to be fired. From leading his team to back to back .500 seasons to the altercation that we all know he let leak (come now, Vinny, you know you have no poker face) his termination was all but sealed regardless of playoff status. So why not get the upper hand? Why not execute the George Costanza pre-emptive break-up? Only good things could have come from it:
- The front office, which already looks like the villain in this particular play, would be robbed of the opportunity to dangle his job in front of him like a dirt farmer dangles a carrot in front of a mule.
- The players will not think ill of him. They already know what is coming and would probably be pleased to see him leave on his own terms.
- He avoids having a termination on his resume. Some coaches and executives around the league like him (big endorsement by Pop) so maybe seeing him get some “hand” in the situation will only improve his standing.
Unless it is a matter of money I see no point in VDN waiting around to get fired. Stepping down on his own accord would have made the most sense but I guess he is just content to await his termination. I don’t get it.
by Dr. Handsome, D.D.S. on May 3, 2010 1:59 PM CDT reply actions
if he do......
he is going to pull a Scott Skiles, and be a Sucessful coach. And the Bulls Front office would react like “Damn we shouldnt have let him go”.
Skiles quit on
the Bulls, Pax just put him out of his misery.
by QUINTEN DALEY on May 3, 2010 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions
McGraw with an update
sortof. Not much there, still says Vinny is likely fired ‘within 48 hours’ (crimeny)
Here’s a weird-ass nugget:
Forman will be making more of the key decisions while vice president of basketball operations John Paxson moves into a consulting role. This was the plan long before Paxson got into a physical confrontation with Del Negro following a March 30 home game. So one of the key questions is whether Forman and Del Negro can work together next season.
It doesn’t matter if Pax and VDN don’t get along, Gar Forman is in charge now ::jedi mind-trick::
How many ‘consultants’ run into the coach’s office post-game? I see the benefit of keeping Pax around in a limited role (he does seem to be a pretty decent scout) but it isn’t realistic. As long as he’s getting a paycheck Forman will never be seen as in charge. I think that myth was busted after the confrontation, as well as learning Gar had to text Pax about Noah’s minutes in the New Jersey game.
Plus, who’s going to be wooing the FAs? Forman or the consultant?
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"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 3, 2010 3:38 PM CDT reply actions
he's the VP of Basketball Operations
his shamed brother Jim is a consultant (still, I believe)
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"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 3, 2010 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Speaking of jedi mind tricks
“Wooing…woo? Now that’s a name I haven’t heard in a long time…a long time.”
These aren’t the words you are looking for. Move along.
the best part is
“This was the plan long before”
surrrrrre.
"4 inches, baby!" --ripped off from Kush
really, I hope this is addressed at the press conference
just ask: WHO IS IN CHARGE? Who is targeting FAs, meeting with coaches, etc. Is Pax a consultant or the boss? Figurehead or spearhead?
Technically that’d only serve use of putting fans at ease, but I honestly wonder if they know the answer.
I’m guessing it won’t be asked and KC will say ‘everyone knew Pax did such-and-such’.
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"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 3, 2010 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions
This guy is mention McHale or Lawrence Frank as possibilities. Seriously?
by sweetneyisfat on May 3, 2010 5:02 PM CDT up reply actions
McHale would be great
Bulls organization too stupid though.
So much for my Bill Laimbeer pipe dream...
John Paxson and general manager Gar Forman will embark on a search focusing on candidates with previous NBA head-coaching experience.
Unless you count three (W)NBA championship coaching seasons that are on his resume.
Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.
Pretty sure the jesters
said the same thing before they hired the well traveled NBA head coach Vinny Del Negro.
12/31/08: Fire Vinny Del Negro.(upd: 1/7/10)
Chuck Attack is really starting to lose it
To speculate on the next coach of the bulls while vdn is still employed in that capacity is totally low class and a lack of respect
I was the only person to vote for Andrea Bargnani as ROY -never pressured by anyone on the Raps. I based it on his stats and impact he had
Without Bargnani the Raps don’t make the playoffs his rookie year. I also publicly released my votes as I do every year. Integrity matters
I believe all NBA voting should be made public-I have no problem with that-none.
Regardless of my personal and professional opinions I still believe in treating people with dignity and respect I guess I’m old school
dignity is for wusses!
I’m glad someone is following Chuckattack so I don’t have to.
Seriously though, Chuck is a bit of a wiener. Immediately upon coming back to Chicago he commented that sports radio currently had too much ‘filth’. His priorities are to be a ‘good person’ and work diligently for the team. That’s fine, but he’s not unbiased.
I guess it’s little different than KC holding the story due to the ‘humanity’ involved. Can’t trust either for the inside info.
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"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 3, 2010 5:02 PM CDT up reply actions
I like Chuck
I dont think a radio play by play guy has ever broken a story, so who cares if he’s biased towards the team or the organization? All we can ask of him is to accurately report what happens on the court (Neil Funk, I see you!) and try to be interesting while doing so. Chuck is enthusiastic and his calls are accurate, so he’s fine by me.
KC is the beat writer so, by definition, he should be breaking news about the team. He’s just a clown.
Chuck is at least up front with the blatant homerism.
He knows who cuts the check.
"Boozer's dumb ass jumped. So I dunked on his ass."-Joakim Noah
by Ozzie Montana on May 4, 2010 1:28 AM CDT up reply actions
You and me both...
Marginal upgrade…its not like he has taken a team out of the first round since the 80’s…
Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.
From Kelly Dwyer, via Andrew Cieslak, via Jason Goff
RT @AndrewCieslak: RT @jgoff670: Vinny Del Negro out as Bulls head coach.
This line from a movie, television show or other piece of popular culture pretty much sums up my entire personality.
by ScottieG33 on May 3, 2010 5:39 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Haha. Yes. Via the mind of God.
This line from a movie, television show or other piece of popular culture pretty much sums up my entire personality.
From Adrian Wojnarowski
Vinny Del Negro was just on way into Bulls team facility and has yet to be informed he’s been fired, league source says.
Classy till the end, GarPaxDorf
This line from a movie, television show or other piece of popular culture pretty much sums up my entire personality.
by ScottieG33 on May 3, 2010 5:57 PM CDT reply actions 2 recs
just like the clippers when camby was traded. nice job fellas.
there is something awesome about Pargo, though.
Seriously. It’s kind of awe inspiring: he WILL shoot. He has no conscience. No remorse. He will shoot – the situation, the opponent, the country. He could be in zero gravity floating in orbit. The dude would be jacking up shots. And missing.
-MPG
And msnbc.com
Chicago media sources are reporting that Vinny Del Negro has been fired, though Del Negro and other Bulls’ assistants seemed unaware of the decision.
This doesn’t even rate on the list of bad decisions, but I’ve never been less impressed by the org than now. Considering how often we hear the whole “character guys” mantra, the FO’s not showing much.
Well, I'm sure they're completely aware of the situation
That’s a little different than hearing from someone other than your boss that you have definitely been fired.
Who cares...
This doesnt even register on the radar of things that matter with this firing imminent.
Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.
can i just say again
i really hope the Bulls do not hire doug collins
by juicewolta on May 3, 2010 6:00 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Collins isn't good
Wasn’t really a good NBA coach and this is a new era of the game that requires foreward thinking coaches who rely more on stats. It’s like the Cubs hiring Pinellia over Girardi.
Because he hasn't coached a good team since 1997?
He’s proven to be emotionally unstable?
"Boozer's dumb ass jumped. So I dunked on his ass."-Joakim Noah
by Ozzie Montana on May 4, 2010 1:29 AM CDT up reply actions
i'm kind of in the same thought as hoopshype with DC
“What has Doug Collins done to warrant all the interest he’s commanding?”
“Collins has not been particularly successful. Not to mention his last team, Washington, was extremely boring to watch.”
from hoopshype’s twitter
Nor with the team prior to Washington...
He has not been particularly successful in 20 years.
Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.
They just announced
on CTL there will be a press conference at the Berto in the morning but I didn’t catch what time they said.
Alright Alright!
Though the focus will immediately turn to a coaching search that could include such candidates as Doug Collins, Maurice Cheeks, Eric Musselman, Phil Jackson, Jeff Van Gundy, Byron Scott, Sam Mitchell, Tom Thibodeau, Lawrence Frank, Dwane Casey, Avery Johnson and John Calipari, the Del Negro era goes out with something of a bang.
Im gonna SOOO FUCKING PISSED
if we get Collins. Seriousness: Vin-Dog is better than 1/2 of these old fucks, simply based on the fact that he can get better. Rest of the lame ducks dont know how to even google
"The Bulls Are Back" - D. Stern (2010)
Woj . . .
Haven’t asked him, but I think people can forget Jeff Van Gundy as candidate with Bulls. Management support of a coach is his top criteria.
That'll be the same with any big name
Not the JR would pay for one, but no talented coach is going to join this circus.
These guys are so insecure
If you're reading this signature, there's a good chance you don't like Vinny Del Negro.
by Juiceboxjerry on May 3, 2010 7:23 PM CDT up reply actions
yeah, who wants a job where the bosses actually let you work?
there is something awesome about Pargo, though.
Seriously. It’s kind of awe inspiring: he WILL shoot. He has no conscience. No remorse. He will shoot – the situation, the opponent, the country. He could be in zero gravity floating in orbit. The dude would be jacking up shots. And missing.
-MPG
Classy till the end
We are hitting new lows as an organization. The Isiah Knicks and Clippers have just welcomed us to the party.
by Niwrad on May 3, 2010 6:46 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
It appears last discussions with JR and Foreman assured Vinny
KC Johnson Tribune and Issacson of ESPN.com report the Bulls assured Vinny incident with Paxson will not harm future coaching jobs.
Del Negro, sources said, wanted assurances from the organization the incident wouldn’t cause Bulls officials to harm his future chances at employment.
If they're smart they'll really kiss his ass tomorrow
If you're reading this signature, there's a good chance you don't like Vinny Del Negro.
by Juiceboxjerry on May 3, 2010 7:23 PM CDT up reply actions
new thread is up
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 3, 2010 7:26 PM CDT reply actions
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