Bulls really want to interview Thibodeau
[From the FanShots. KC reporting that there is added urgency in direct response to the reports that he's a finalist for the Hornets job. No doubt Thibs stock keeps rising after every dominating Celtics performance. I'm still against risking with another first-timer -ed.]
So, um, interview the guy already...I mean, he is no Bill Laimbeer, but I can get on board with this candidate above the retreads on the market....
about 2 years ago
Dionysus2.0
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KC said they would hire before July 1 on CTL.
I’m down with Tom. I’d rather have Doc but if they’re talking about Cheeks and Frank I’ll take me some Tom T.
i read that as
“above the retards on the market…” ha.
That is what I meant...
Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.
Thank baby Jesus.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
I don’t mind not having a coach without head coaching experience as long as they have a ton of b-ball experience in general. Personally I don’t like retreads, they are retreads for a reason. Because they F-CKIN sucked at their last job.
Scott Skiles would like to have a word with you.
by darksmokepuncher on May 22, 2010 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions
skiles is great if you want to be a 4 or 5 seed year in and year out
for anyone better, you need to go out on a limb.
"The superior man blames himself. The inferior man blames others." Don Shula
by TonySoprano on May 23, 2010 11:06 PM CDT up reply actions
How can you say that
Skiles has never had a great team to coach. There is no way to know what he would do with a great team. I’d imagine he’d win a title or two with Kobe just like anyone else.
Look at the Bulls we still got to the playoffs and we had Vinny, a coach only makes so much of a difference in the NBA. It’s a star driven league.
"A common mistake made by baseball fans is to call a pitcher unhittable when that pitcher is not Matt Thornton." - Hardball Times
by Grinder in Training on May 24, 2010 8:21 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
are you serious?
The Bucks started Carlos Delfino, Ersan Illyasova and Brandon Jennings, who was about as efficient as Kirk Hinrich for the second half of the season. And they were still a better team than the Bulls.
by darksmokepuncher on May 24, 2010 8:52 AM CDT up reply actions
Only due to injuries
If Rose and Noah stay 100% healthy Bulls would have challenged for the 8th seed.
Derrick played in 78 games this year
and Noah in 64.
Even without Bogut in the lineup at the end of the season, they still beat us.
by darksmokepuncher on May 24, 2010 9:23 AM CDT up reply actions
Noah was hobbled a few games he played
and Luol Deng missed some games. That’s our 3 best players.
Well Michael Redd was also hurt for nearly the entire season.
Their team was not good. Scott Skiles is a good coach, the results alone should be enough evidence to prove that.
"A common mistake made by baseball fans is to call a pitcher unhittable when that pitcher is not Matt Thornton." - Hardball Times
by Grinder in Training on May 24, 2010 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Skiles went to 2nd round
without Rose and w/o Noah
by JustAnotherFan on May 24, 2010 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions
With Ben Gordon, PJ Brown, and Ben Wallace when he was still trying
against a depleted Miami team.
If this Bulls team played that Miami team, I think they would have advanced too.
Considering that Redd is a one-dimentional player,
isn’t that a reason why they did better without him? He’s another of those classic high PER, low D, non-team, overpaid players that litter NBA rosters. And no one can figure out why those teams don’t do better.
They also improved the rest of the team
And Bogut grew up. Considering they did fine w/ John Salmons, I’m sure Redd could have helped.
If he was their only player again, then no, of course they would have been terrible. If he’s used properly though, which Skiles would have done, they’d have liked to have him around at a lower price.
"A common mistake made by baseball fans is to call a pitcher unhittable when that pitcher is not Matt Thornton." - Hardball Times
by Grinder in Training on May 24, 2010 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions
people said the same thing about Ben Gordon
I don’t think we are a better team w/o BG
by darksmokepuncher on May 24, 2010 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions
bucks were 22-25 before Redd got injured in 08-09
they were 12-23 afterwards, so no they are not a better team without him. they are significantly worse.
by darksmokepuncher on May 24, 2010 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions
"a lot worse"
I disagree that it’s “a lot” worse.
Noah averaged 12/10 this year, and was a better defender than Bogut (though Bogut was improved on that end, and a better shot-blocker). Deng averaged about 18 per game, which is pretty close to 20 per game, and Deng is a much better defender and rebounder than Redd.
In fact, Redd was a ball-stopping perimeter shooter and doesn’t do anything else. IMO, he hurt the team with his one-dimensionality than he contributed through his scoring. Bucks fans that I know have been wishing that they got rid of him when his contract was up, rather than re-sign him.
I’m not at all saying that the Bulls’ losses were bigger, just that they are comparable or at the very least, the Bucks’ losses weren’t “a lot worse”. And that doesn’t factor in that the Bulls traded away two of their best perimeter scorers – one of which going to the Bucks.
They've been wishing they got rid of him
Because he has a monster deal and got injured two years in a row.
I’m sure they’d have been happy to have him at his actual value. Similar to many Bulls fans dislike of Kirk or Deng. It’s not that they are completely awful at basketball, it’s just that they are paid more than what they are worth.
"A common mistake made by baseball fans is to call a pitcher unhittable when that pitcher is not Matt Thornton." - Hardball Times
by Grinder in Training on May 24, 2010 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Like Hinrich.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Yes because of his monster contract. As I said.
"A common mistake made by baseball fans is to call a pitcher unhittable when that pitcher is not Matt Thornton." - Hardball Times
by Grinder in Training on May 24, 2010 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions
Other than John Salmons, who is the other perimeter scorer the bulls traded away?
and saying that Salmons was one of our best doesn’t really mean much because he had a pretty terrible first half of the season.
What I think is more telling is the fact that he played a hell of a lot better under Skiles.
And while Michael Redd is indeed a ball-stopper, he is also an efficient perimeter scorer, which is something the Bucks were in dire need of until the trade deadline. Furthermore, his replacement was Charlie Bell, who makes Kirk Hinrich look like Kobe Bryant.
Lastly, Deng played in 70 games this year. Redd in played in 18. Watching Redd play can be frustrating as hell, but he’s still the 2nd best player on that team. Deng missing 12 games for the Bulls isn’t nearly as detrimental as Redd missing 64 games for the Bucks.
by darksmokepuncher on May 24, 2010 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions
My bad
I was counting both Salmons and Gordon – but obviously Gordon wasn’t traded. In any case, the Bulls lost their two best perimeter scorers.
letting him walk for nothing....it never stops hurting.
by darksmokepuncher on May 24, 2010 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions
I support that decision
if the Bulls had signed him, then we wouldn’t be in the LeBron/Bosh hunt this offseason.
Really, we let him walk for cap space, which is something. And right now, it’s something extremely significant.
I'd rather have Captain Klank than BG7
Probably in the minority on this blog, but if I had to make that decision I choose Hinrich. I loved BG, but for that kind of money I want more than perimeter scoring.
Can I sell you
some Elmer’s Glue for $9 million?
I don’t take checks.
by kingj41 on May 24, 2010 4:11 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
IMHO,
Kirk’s ass would’ve been out of her right behind Ben.
by QUINTEN DALEY on May 24, 2010 4:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Heh
If that glue is made with thrust, then sign me up! :P
Seriously though, this argument has been done countless times on this blog, but BG can only score from the perimeter. That’s it – that’s his one skill. I don’t want one-dimensional players, even if he’s good at that one dimension. Hinrich wouldn’t appear to be so bad if they didn’t rely on him to score so much, especially on kick-outs. But he’s a MUCH better ball handler, passer, defender and general basketball player than BG is. Plus he makes $1 million less per year.
Even if that's the decision why not sign and trade him?
Get something, anything. It could have been useful player on contract year or a 2nd round pick or maybe a future 1st round pick.
considering what the bucks had to work with the entire season i think they did much better
a rookie pg who was shooting terribly and TO prone
no consistent outside threat
and i definitely disagree that noah is a better defender than bogut
bogut was in the running for defensive player at the end of the year
noah is a great team defender but not a great 1 on 1 defender (and some of that comes from his lack of size) bogut is a good 1 on 1 defender and help defender as well.
losing your ONLY defensive force is huge for a team solely based on beating you through defense.
the bulls losses were not comparable. i promise you if we lost our top two players we wouldnt be anywhere near the playoffs. and we proved it with how we played for just the few games we lost noah
Their best player was hurt too..
And more hurt than Rose.
"A common mistake made by baseball fans is to call a pitcher unhittable when that pitcher is not Matt Thornton." - Hardball Times
by Grinder in Training on May 24, 2010 9:37 AM CDT up reply actions
Why is Thibodeau such a hot commodity?
For starters, the Bulls’ problem this year was not defense. Could they improve on that side of the ball? Sure, but they need more help offensively, whether it be through free agency or coaching.
Also, why are you all so confident that Thibs is what drives that defense, not KG, Perkins, Rondo and a hungry team of veterans? Wasn’t Thibs around when they sucked defensively? I just don’t want to buy in to the “guru” thing. Look at Detroit and Keuster.
Metal sharpens metal.
And this guy right here understands and knows what leadership is all about: The coach, the hall of famer......... Dick Butka! George Ryan
The Bulls shrink like a dick in cold water.
thibideau
was only hired in august of 2007, so, the year before they won. he had nothing to do with the pre-championship crappy celtics.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
*thibodeau
regardless.
though, at the same time, that is obv the same year that KG was brought in, so, that of course has an effect as well.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
He was hired after all the trades, and he's been a defensive specialist for quite some time.
Coaching with Van Gundy in NY and Houston. Being a specialist doesn’t guarantee you’ll be a solid head coach, but I fail to see how Lawrence Frank or Mo Cheeks have proven anything other than being substandard head coaches. Thibs could likely hire an offensive guy much like Mike Brown did with Kuester.
If you don’t believe in the “guru” thing, then there’s a ton of head coaches who wouldn’t have jobs right now.
"Boozer's dumb ass jumped. So I dunked on his ass."-Joakim Noah
by Ozzie Montana on May 22, 2010 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions
I think all the potentials are all quite unproven anyways
Meaning, they haven’t really done shit to impress me. I’d take my chances with this guy.
Everywhere he’s gone, his teams were amongst the best defensive teams in the league.
That’s somewhat of a proven coach. Like you said though, it doesn’t mean he’ll be a great head coach but those guys are just as risky.
And yeah, just hire an offensive minded assistant to take that pressure off him.
I don't want
Mike Brown anywhere near the Bulls
by QUINTEN DALEY on May 24, 2010 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions
Mike Brown needs to...
SHUT DOWN THE CARTER on his career.
by T.Moore on May 24, 2010 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
How the Bulls improve offensively...
They add Lebron or Bosh or both…
I am all for adding a defensive coach. Thib has been on the top of my list and I am shocked that we haven’t heard more about him.
I like Thibodeau
and Elston Turner as far as assistants go. In fact, I’d like to have both of them, one would obviously have to have the head coach title but they could almost be like offensive/defensive coordinator roles. Just make the assistant (likely Turner) a really high paid assistant and the coach (Thibodeau) at like a $3 mil per year deal (which is pretty standard for a first time head coach with tons of assistant experience I imagine.
I got the skills to pay the bills and that's about it
by Rose Colored Goggles on May 22, 2010 4:47 PM CDT reply actions
I'd prefer my coach to be more of a leader
This guy’s track record is fairly impressive, he seems like a good X’s and O’s guy defensively, but I wonder about the other aspects of coaching. I haven’t heard much about him, but apparently he’s more of a quiet guy. There’s gotta be a reason he hasn’t gotten a job yet, it’s not for lack of results. I guess we could do a lot worse, but I still think we could do better.
If you're reading this signature, there's a good chance you don't like Vinny Del Negro.
you said what I said
in a previous post. It’s just really strange why he keeps getting interviews (over the past 2-3 seasons) and not hired.
Not that he’s the “gold standard” for this type of thing, but I always think back to Jim Clemons. Long time assistant and when he got his first coaching gig, he stunk it up. Not that it was completely his fault, because if I remember correctly, he inherited a pretty crappy Dallas team. But everyone was saying most of the same general things (sans “defensive guru” title) about Clemons back then as they are saying about Thibs now (“this guy deserves a head coaching job!”).
I think we could do WAY worse, but I would prefer someone with HEAD coaching experience this time around.
Yup
I just don’t like the idea of handing over the keys to a (potentially) really good team to him. It’s kind of a boom or bust proposition, and we’ve been through that too many times with this franchise. Just bring in someone that’s proven, what’s so hard about that?
If you're reading this signature, there's a good chance you don't like Vinny Del Negro.
by Juiceboxjerry on May 22, 2010 8:30 PM CDT up reply actions
How many proven candidates exist?
JVG is the only one I can think of, and he doesn’t want to coach.
Plenty of people see flaws with Scott and Avery Johnson which appears to be the next tier.
Who are the people that see flaws in them, the Bulls? That's my point, is it their "flaws", or their pricetag?
As a fan of a team in the third largest market in the country, we shouldn’t just accept the team settling like that. People should be more pissed that they’re not going after a guy like Van Gundy. Instead everyone just accepts it. And by “everyone”, I’m referring more to the local media. They are the people that should be giving them shit about it, why they don’t, I just can’t understand.
If you're reading this signature, there's a good chance you don't like Vinny Del Negro.
by Juiceboxjerry on May 24, 2010 1:18 AM CDT up reply actions
from what i remember
Jim Clemons was also known as a defensive guru. Tex Winters was the offensive guru
"The superior man blames himself. The inferior man blames others." Don Shula
by TonySoprano on May 23, 2010 11:10 PM CDT up reply actions
actually, he seems pretty vocal in the timeouts
and i believe someone commented on another post that they’ve seen him doing all the talking during a few timeouts and Doc just sitting there nodding. but i never thought of the multiple interviews/no hire angle. kinda interesting.
the thigh bone is not connected to the free throw bone.- Shaquille O'Neal
by BULLieving in Miami on May 23, 2010 1:13 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
This guy IS a leader
First of all, Rivers is the guy that shows all of the emotion during games but he’s the one doing the strategic talking most of the time.
And from what I’ve heard other coaches say, this guy actually talks a lot. It’s just that Rivers has a rule where the assistant can’t talk to the media. Apparently Thibs gots a sense of humor like Skiles.
Oh and you’re right about the defense not needed much help. It’s the offense that needs it but that wasn’t due to coaching, it was due to players. Offense was supposed to be VDN’s bread and butter and they were fine last year. But they stripped him of his best offensive talents and they focused more on defense this year.
You add 1 or 2 of those prized free agents and I think you’ll see the offense back on track.
You don’t go from team to team and turn them into defensive forces without being somewhat of a leader. If anything, I’m more worried about the team having respect for Casey, Frank or Cheeks.
by Option27 on May 23, 2010 1:27 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I don't mean to sound like I hate the idea
Normally I would be a fan of this type of hire. In fact, it would have been perfect two years ago, why the hell didn’t he get an interview then? Here’s the thing, the Bulls current situation has “experienced” Head Coach written all over it. They’re trying to recruit free agents, if/when they do get one we NEED a guy who’s ran a damn team before, not another question mark. Our new guy could be coaching Lebron James for christ’s sake.
What is so difficult for the org. about just getting a guy that’s coached before? I’m afraid the main reason we’re hearing Thibadeau’s name right now is because he’ll come cheap and they’ll still be able to sell him to the fanbase as and up and coming guy. It amazes me how people just hated the idea of Doug Collins, but they’re willing to take a guy like this when they have no idea what to expect. He could be WAY worse and we won’t know til it’s too late.
If you're reading this signature, there's a good chance you don't like Vinny Del Negro.
by Juiceboxjerry on May 23, 2010 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Bulls hire cheap coach
remember the bulls management still have to pay vinny next year and unless you are phil jackson or a coach that has won a championship, you aren’t going to get paid a lot of money………..the lakers want phil jackson to come back next year for a cheaper price…….lets face it, there aren’t a lot of real good coach in the nba that are on the market right now, so you have to take what you can get and cheap too
Like I've mentioned before
This is the guy who has orchestrated ways numerous times to beat LeBrons team. What makes you think he’s going to respect the other candidates? They have done nothing to earn anyones respect.
Just because you have experience, doesn’t meed respect is a given.
Thibs is a class act, knows his shit and is very personable as well. He’s proven in a sense. He’s the most logical hire to me. Of course I would rather have a JVG or any other high profile coach but I’m beaing realistic in terms of Bulls ‘cheapness’.
by Option27 on May 23, 2010 2:14 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
After tonights Celtics/Magic game
can there be any question about defense and winning-and what Thibodeau brings to the table.
And secondly, players that have a reputation of being overpaid…like Carter, Starbury,Lewis, McGrady, the list is endless, they all have a high PER, they don’t show up on defense, they aren’t team oriented, and they loose, constantly, throughout their entire career. We do not need J Johnson…for example.
Lastly, if we get LBJ we need to get Ray Allen.
Peoploe are overstating this defensive coach thing
Thibadeau has Garnett, Perkins and Rondo, three of the top defenders for their position. Plus Pierce and Allen aren’t too shabby either. That entire team is extremely scrappy and enjoys playing defense. It says a lot more about their personnel than their coach to me. I’m not saying Thibadeu is a bad coach, but to assume that he’ll just come over here and make us look like the Celtics is a gigantic stretch. That team is a near perfect combination of a great defensive philosophy matched with tremendous talent and it will be very hard for the Bulls to duplicate their success.
If you're reading this signature, there's a good chance you don't like Vinny Del Negro.
by Juiceboxjerry on May 22, 2010 11:00 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
The Bulls were a top ten defensive unit the whole season, and finished 11th mainly due to injuries to Deng and Noah.
We’re not the Warriors.
"Boozer's dumb ass jumped. So I dunked on his ass."-Joakim Noah
by Ozzie Montana on May 23, 2010 12:00 AM CDT up reply actions
We're still quite a few steps below the Celtics, I don't care what our defensive stats say
That Celtics team is taking the Orlando Magic, a team that was in the top 3 in offensive efficiency I believe, and making them look like they just started playing together yesterday. Throughout the playoffs and in big games, when teams really wanted to score on us they could. I don’t think that’s due to lack of effort or coaching, it’s more a result of being a little too slight up front and having to double team, and switching on the pick and roll way too often. That won’t change unless D Rose gets a little better and Noah gets a little more height and beef playing next to him, not when we get a new coach
If you're reading this signature, there's a good chance you don't like Vinny Del Negro.
by Juiceboxjerry on May 23, 2010 12:22 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
no doubt coaches don't succeed without talented players
but i would say with the Bulls he’d be getting a decent defensive team but, more importantly, willing defenders. Noah, Lu, Kirk, heck even Taj. i know they ain’t Boston’s hall of fame squad, but going forward he can make the Bulls a great defensive unit. add Lebron and thats another willing defender.
what just might make the difference is that Rondo is a great defensive PG. Rose needs to step that up. Rondo has really impressed me these playoffs. he impacts the game even when not scoring.
the thigh bone is not connected to the free throw bone.- Shaquille O'Neal
by BULLieving in Miami on May 23, 2010 2:32 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
As far as willingness goes, Rose looks the part
He just isn’t very good at it.
true that they have great defensive individuals
but if you truly watch each and every one of their games, what makes them so great is their team defense and that definitely is something that is thibs
He didn't just start coaching in Boston
So unless the Rockets and the Knicks had a “near perfect combination” also, he just plain knows what he’s doing. Apparently, head coaches know he’s great at defense, keep handing the keys over to him, they keep finishing among the best in the nba, and that’s still not enough to prove he knows what he’s doing.
Allen was known as a bad defender and has clearly gotten better. Rondo, Pierce, and Perkins were on the previous team and somehow that team was only average defensively. Unless you think Garnett alone is enough to turn a team from 17 in defensive efficiency to 1st, Thibodeau’s schemes and teaching clearly had something to do with it.
by runningman on May 23, 2010 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions 5 recs
Good point
I think Thibs to be successful will need to be paired with an offensive coach. Hopefully he has picked up a few tricks from working with Rivers. Boston’s defense along with their efficiency and ball movement in the halfcourt, have destroyed Cleveland and Orlando.
by Basketball Smurf on May 23, 2010 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions
well, those early-mid 2000s knicks teams were pretty weird, so its hard to figure out
what was going on there. but the rockets had a pretty consistent lineup bridging the van gundy-adelman regimes, and when thibs-van gundy left the rockets houston was able to maintain its defensive success. so they likely had a pretty good defensive lineup. the question for me is: is there sufficient evidence that thibs is so good at coaching defense that it makes up for the fact that he might not be able to coach offense and he might not be able to manage a locker room? if the bulls interview him and decide the answer is yes, then i can live with that, though i will be pretty nervous for sure.
"Why don't you do what my buddies and I used to do when we were hard up for dates?"
"Invade Korea?"
Unless you think Garnett alone is enough to turn a team from 17 in defensive efficiency to 1st
Actually I kinda do think that. That combined with an overall attitude change by the team. And yes, some good coaching sprinkled in. Garnett is one of the best defensive players EVER, so it’s not a stretch to think that he can have that kind of impact, especially when you pair it with the team buying in. As I said before, I actually like Thibadeau and think he’’s a great defensive mind, but that does not mean he’ll make a good head coach. There’s a lot more than just strategy that goes into that job. He’s gonna be one of the key faces of an organization in a major market that is supposed to have Championship aspirations next season, that’s a lot to ask of a guy that hasn’t proven shit.
If you're reading this signature, there's a good chance you don't like Vinny Del Negro.
by Juiceboxjerry on May 23, 2010 11:25 PM CDT up reply actions
garnett does not make a team go from 17th to 1st on his own
its a team defense that makes boston so potent.
does having kg make the system work a shit ton better? obviously. but kg alone is not the reason they were 1st
What about leadership?
Garnett is basically a coach on the floor. As annoying as he was to other teams with all his barking and antics, a lot of that was directed at his own teammates. He made that team play good defense, he was a monster. I’d like to see what a fan from the Celtics board thinks about this argument because they probably got to see his impact every game. I don’t think it can be understated
If you're reading this signature, there's a good chance you don't like Vinny Del Negro.
by Juiceboxjerry on May 24, 2010 12:53 AM CDT up reply actions
yes hes the floor leader on defense but that doesnt mean hes the one coming up with the defensive schemes
garnett calls out a lot of the defensive schemes in the heat of the game and what to switch etc.
but those adjustments are things that thibs has taught them and made them repeat over and over during practice so that during a game they can quickly react when the correct switch or scheme is needed
garnett basically is basically just the defensive version of rondo on the court.
just like rondo is the floor leader on offense garnett is the floor leader on defense
that doesnt mean hes the one coming up with the defensive schemes
I really think people overstate things like “defensive schemes”. In the words of the immortal Vincent Del Negro, “there’s no magic pill or magic potion…”. This is the NBA, nobody reinvents the wheel, these teams have seen every scheme around. To me, good defense comes down to a few fairly simple things:
1) How much the coach emphasizes defense.
2) How much the team is willing to listen.
3) How good/talented the team is (ability to execute).
4) The quality of their opponent.
When all those things line up for you, you’ll be ok. Tom Thibodeau isn’t gonna do anything new or special.
If you're reading this signature, there's a good chance you don't like Vinny Del Negro.
by Juiceboxjerry on May 24, 2010 3:53 AM CDT up reply actions
defensive schemes and tactics dont have to be necessary ingenius new ideas
they are simply schemes and tactics that a coach comes up with based on the talent/types of players he has to work with.
thats what a coach does. they take their system and tweak it based on the talent and players they have to utilize.
when garnett is out there calling plays and what to switch and how they should set up the defense. you think the players just automatically know their roles and where they should be? where they should be helping off /on ?
those are all things the coach has drawn up and taught them repeatedly in practice
I get what you're saying, but the basic principles are still pretty much the same
It’s not like Derrick Rose is gonna guard Shaq or something. I know that a coach can help a great deal, but I think all of these coaches have a pretty good handle on defensive schemes. It’s not like Thibodeau is head and shoulders above everyone else, that’s all I’m trying to say. I’m not gonna be super angry if we hire him, I think he could be pretty good, and if he coaches this team I’ll hope he succeeds. I just think it’s a pretty big risk to take for a team that should be looking for a little more certainty this time around.
If you're reading this signature, there's a good chance you don't like Vinny Del Negro.
by Juiceboxjerry on May 24, 2010 4:32 AM CDT up reply actions
There are game to game adjustments
that mean a great deal. How to play opposing players (sag off or play tight), when to double, what the other 3 players should do during a double team, when to gamble on picking off passes, etc.
i agree hes not head and shoulders above everyone else
but hes definitely a step up from some of the names the bulls have been considering.
im with you. i would definitely rather have certainty but i think only about 3-4 guys out there guarantee you that. (and two of them are currently headed for the finals)
1. In Garnett’s last year in Minnesota, they were 21st in defensive efficiency while he started 82 games, and played far more minutes than any teammate. If he can cause as much difference as you say, that would have been impossible.
3. I notice you skipped over the fact that he’s had defensive success with 3 different teams over 15 years. To me that means he has proven “shit”. As we type, he’s proving that he can put together a defensive game plan that embarrasses the 4th and 6th best offenses in the league. What has your preferred candidate or any candidate that hasn’t already said “not interested” proven?
3. Nothing about being the key face of an organization makes a whit of difference in whether you win or lose. Are you saying that you wouldn’t want the best coach if you didn’t like the way he looked? Personally, I don’t want to look good while losing, I want to win. If you also simply want to win a championship or the most games possible, I don’t know where that argument is going.
Jeez, relax a little man, I did say I like him you know. Still, I'll answer each of your points
1. Good point, but I’m sure most of his previous teams in Minny were much better in that regard (I’m too lazy to look, so if I’m wrong I’ll happily eat my words). That team was a disaster from the get go, and because of that, was probably not giving a lot of effort on that end of the floor, as most bad teams tend to do. When you’re team is the favorite to win a Championship guys tend to play a lot harder defensively. A major part of defense is effort.
2. I think you’re completely missing my point when I say he hasn’t “proven shit”. Maybe that came off a little harsh, because I realize he’s a good basketball coach, but I was referring to him as a Head Coach. A job where the responsibilities are not simply drawing up plays or watching video. This team is supposed to be a contender next year, and a Head Coaching job is a pressure packed gig. I would much rather have someone on the bench that has experience dealing with the job and the pressures than handing it to someone that hasn’t “proven” he could do it. That’s all I meant.
3. This one I really have no clue what you’re talking about. When I said “face(s) of an organization”, you do know I’m not literally talking about his face, right?
If you're reading this signature, there's a good chance you don't like Vinny Del Negro.
by Juiceboxjerry on May 24, 2010 12:45 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Who are you referring to?
If you're reading this signature, there's a good chance you don't like Vinny Del Negro.
by Juiceboxjerry on May 24, 2010 2:25 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't like Avery either
I do like Byron Scott though, but I was referring more to Jeff Van Gundy, and someone that I liked, but a lot of people around here didn’t, Doug Collins.
If you're reading this signature, there's a good chance you don't like Vinny Del Negro.
by Juiceboxjerry on May 24, 2010 3:55 AM CDT up reply actions
I mean, I'd prefer Thibodeau to just about any of the retreads out there, in terms of coaching ability
But there is something to be said for name recognition/popularity to recruit guys, so I don’t know. Best case scenario would be to hire a Byron Scott (I think he sucks) or Avery Johnson and then fire him as soon as the ink’s dry on lebron’s contract.
Brad Miller is god.
But there is something to be said for name recognition/popularity to recruit guys
EXACTLY. If the org claims they’re going all out and they’re gonna swing for the fences in free agency, why not use that same tactic with a coach. Hire someone that says “We’re serious about winning”. Even if Thibodeu can do just as good a job, or even better, this summer is about the players, and getting them in a Bulls uniform. If getting a certain coach helps that cause even marginally, then go for it.
Lebron James seems like a pretty arrogant SOB, I don’t know if he’d wanna up and leave Cleveland for a guy that’s never even been a head coach before. Especially when he takes a look at New York with D’antoni and New Jersey with Avery (looks like it). They appear to be trying while the Bulls are nickel and diming it. Why even give him the opportunity to question the orgs willingness to spend for a winner?
If you're reading this signature, there's a good chance you don't like Vinny Del Negro.
by Juiceboxjerry on May 24, 2010 4:40 AM CDT up reply actions
i agree with using the coach as a selling point.
get the FA here and under contract. then fire the coach later and get a better one if you want.
I think LeBron knows *exactly* who Thibs is
since the guy’s defensive schemes are shutting everyone down, and have been for years. Sure, they have good defensive players, but their skills are maximized by Thibs’ tactics. Just because he’s not a big name to the fans doesn’t mean the players don’t know who he is.
I mean, in the 18 years he’s been an assistant, his teams have been top-10 in defense 15 times.
NBA players know who the coaches are
just because the media and/or blogs are either unimpressed or unacquainted with certain coaches, doesn’t mean the player feels the same. I mean, their agents can find out pretty much anything.
And I think the notion that we NEED a big-name coach isn’t as big as it’s hyped to be. Rose + Noah are the important part of FA recruiting…even if we got JVG, would people be lining up to play for him? The only exception is PJ.
by Stacey_Is_King on May 25, 2010 8:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Wow...
The guys with the best winning percentage in the history of the NBA sucks…
At this point, I think your standards are out of touch with reality.
Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.
BTW...
Avery has won 73.5% of games he has coached…a full 3.0% better than Phil Jackson…
Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.
Doesn't mean he's a good fit for the Bulls
2 reasons I don’t like Avery as Bulls’ coach:
1) He’s a slow-it-down-into-the-halfcourt coach. The Mavs were run-and-gun before he took over (“Nellie ball”, heh) and Avery slowed it down and called every play on offense. That obviously helped the Mavs break through to the Finals, but I don’t think it’s a good fit for the Bulls who are super-athletic and built to run on offense.
2) He hasn’t shown that he can handle pressure as a coach. After the game 3 implosion in the Finals, he freaked out, made the team switch hotels during their stay and skipped practice sessions (the assistants had to run them). Then the next year, his #1 seeded team got knocked out by the #8 Warriors.
I just don’t think he’s a good fit for the Bulls, and the only/primary reason his coaching win-loss record is so good is because he was handed a pre-built team full of veterans.
3)
Who wants to hear his grating voice after every game? Honestly.
by darksmokepuncher on May 24, 2010 9:33 AM CDT up reply actions
Do you really believe that Avery Johnson is a full 3 points of winning percentage better than Phil?
That 73.5% was put together over less than 4 years with a loaded roster compared to Phil’s 19 seasons not always with a loaded roster (95 Bulls, 06 & 07 Lakers). To quote you from above
At this point, I think your standards are out of touch with reality.
It will be found an unjust and unwise jealousy to deprive a man of his natural liberty upon the supposition he may abuse it.
George Washington
His teams were absolutely loaded with talent
He got fired for a reason. And listening to him on ESPN, he sounds like an idiot and an asshole.
Brad Miller is god.
by Poloplaya14 on May 24, 2010 3:12 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Not to mention he's completely fell out of favor with the Hornets
Because he supposedly wants front office control. Fuck that shit.
"Boozer's dumb ass jumped. So I dunked on his ass."-Joakim Noah
by Ozzie Montana on May 24, 2010 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Avery is dumb as hell
to think he is going to get front office control and coach, you may offer that to a Phil Jackson but not Avery, Avery here is some advice, the Hornets gig was in your lap and you spit on it for more control, next time except the gig, PLEASE!!!!
by QUINTEN DALEY on May 24, 2010 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions
I kinda think thats a bit over the top
Garnett is one of the best defensive players EVER
As important KG is and is their best defender and one of the best TODAY. The Celts bread and butter is team defense its not just on KG.
I'm not gonna go all the way back to Bill Russell or those days, because I wasn't around then
but in the modern era, how many better defensive big men are there than Kevin Garnett? I’m sure there’s a few, but not many. That would make him one of the best defensive players ever in my book.
If you're reading this signature, there's a good chance you don't like Vinny Del Negro.
by Juiceboxjerry on May 24, 2010 12:48 AM CDT up reply actions
totally. basketball sucks.
"Why don't you do what my buddies and I used to do when we were hard up for dates?"
"Invade Korea?"
its not guard dominated, guards just get all of the attention.
"Why don't you do what my buddies and I used to do when we were hard up for dates?"
"Invade Korea?"
And there's an overflow of guards.
There will be more all-star/big name guards over the next 10 years than big men.
by Stacey_Is_King on May 25, 2010 8:33 PM CDT up reply actions
When Garnett was injured the last half of last season
what were Boston defensive efficiency numbers?
You played them in the playoffs, you should know, there were probably articles published around that issue.
My guess is that sans Garnett they weren’t even a top-10 defensive team in the league.
Boston gave up I think 5 more points per 100
Go Rockets/Nets[CDR]/Bucks[Jennings]!
Oh geez
Here’s a Q&A from 2009:
http://bullsbythehorns.com/?p=654
“1. With Kevin Garnett, the Celtics surrender only 90.8 PPG. Without him, they’re giving up 99.4 PPG and (gulp) 107.5 PPG versus playoff teams. Why can’t they stop people sans KG?”
They were 4 points per 100 better on O and 9 points per 100 worse on D without Garnett. The O was noise [their 3-point shooters just made more threes], the D may have also been inflated[?]. But … 5 points per 100 overall as an impact seems right, somewhere between 5 and 9 anyways.
Go Rockets/Nets[CDR]/Bucks[Jennings]!
Then you're wrong. The Celtics went from being below average to a historically good defense. KG is truly great, but
no one player makes THAT level of difference. Scheme matters and Thibs brings it in spades.
by fundamentallysound on May 24, 2010 8:31 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't know.
2008 ppg allowed – 88.7
2009 ppg allowed – 97.2 (i took out the OT games for obvious reasons)
2010 ppg allowed – 90 (or 90.4 with last night’s OT loss)
The most obvious difference is that Garnett was out last year. Thibadeau was still there. Certainly there are other factors, the biggest being “sample size”, offensive quality of opponent (although we do know last year’s Chicago team was pretty horrible so that’s not as big of a deal), and pace.
I really think Garnett is that amazing.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
You gotta consider that the Celtics have played better teams in the playoffs, though.
(That is stats for the playoffs, right?)
by Stacey_Is_King on May 25, 2010 8:52 PM CDT up reply actions
You know better than to use ppg. What are the pace adjusted numbers?
2010 Offseason Motto: Get Greedy, Bulls. Grab LeBron and Bosh and Phil.
by fundamentallysound on May 27, 2010 8:28 PM CDT up reply actions
um...but the Orlando Magic
are were good at basketball before facing the Celtics.
The Magic hadn’t lost a game during the first two rounds, but have just been CRUSHED by Boston.
Jesus freaking Christ, the Magic have the best defensive center in the league and can’t do squat tn this series. Howard has been just shut down.
by KentuckyBullsFan on May 23, 2010 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions
And this is ALL because of Thibadeau?
If you're reading this signature, there's a good chance you don't like Vinny Del Negro.
by Juiceboxjerry on May 23, 2010 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions
It's more because the matchups suck for Orlando
But Thibodeau’s hand is definitely in there.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.
Far more impressive
than the regular season is Boston’s defense during the playoffs. Many predicted they’d be a first round out since they looked old and tired.
Both the Cavs and Magic have been totally taken out of their offensesby a team they were supposed to beat. I don’t think Doc is devising these defensive tweaks.
by El Toro de Goro on May 24, 2010 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm not interested in getting Joe Johnson
but to lump him with Carter, Marbury, Lewis and McGrady is wrong. Joe Johnson is a willing defender and he is pretty good at it.
by Basketball Smurf on May 23, 2010 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions
In other words, if Joe Johnson decided to start hating money.
Brad Miller is god.
by Poloplaya14 on May 23, 2010 6:22 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I would take McGrady or Carter over Joe Johson any day of the week.
(When they were all healthy, not now)
If you're reading this signature, there's a good chance you don't like Vinny Del Negro.
by Juiceboxjerry on May 23, 2010 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions
Joe Johnson is overrated
He played like garbage in the playoffs and doesn’t deserve a max contract or a long contract either………..bulls don’t need an average player, they need a great player, like lebron, wade, bosh and dirk
I'm with you, I'd much rather have a guy like JJ Redick
Getting JJ would be the classic example of getting a guy just to get a guy. I wish he wasn’t even in this FA class. I could kinda get excited about almost any other FA. Even guys like Lee or Boozer. Joe by himself would be pretty devastating to me
If you're reading this signature, there's a good chance you don't like Vinny Del Negro.
by Juiceboxjerry on May 23, 2010 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Makes sense with D'Antoni connection...
Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.
Even if we dont get james
Ill be happy with Bosh
by rick_ross on May 23, 2010 6:46 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
I'm sure they already know about Thib.
I bet Thib or Byron will be the coach of the Bulls next season.
Bosh 2010!!!!!
Scalabrine says Thib is the right guy for Chicago
“That’s the thing about Tom: He relates to all of us, and we have a lot of strong personalities,” Scalabrine said. "It’s not an easy thing being a coach in the NBA because players are always skeptical. You have to know exactly what you’re talking about because if you’re wrong for one second, players will get on you.
“Tom’s attention to detail is top-notch. And it’s more than all the stories you hear about him watching tons of film. It’s his ability to go over film and then teach it. He does a really good job of explaining what we need to do, and also being open to things the players see.
“As much as I’d hate to see him go, Chicago would be an unbelievable fit for him.”
The only thing that worries me about it is: what Scalabrine knows about basketball?
"here we are now; entertain us"
Probably a lot more than we do.
"A common mistake made by baseball fans is to call a pitcher unhittable when that pitcher is not Matt Thornton." - Hardball Times
by Grinder in Training on May 24, 2010 8:25 AM CDT up reply actions
I hope he gets fined...
At least $10K for talking about another team’s coaching search…
Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.
Scalabrine is completely unathletic, the only skill he has is that he's tall
and yet he’s made, what, $30 million? And he’s in the NBA! And he played in the C’s last championship run and was vaguely effective!
I’m guessing he knows something. :P
Go Rockets/Nets[CDR]/Bucks[Jennings]!
????
He’s a professional NBA player. He probably knows more than all of us.
by Stacey_Is_King on May 25, 2010 8:38 PM CDT up reply actions
You would be surprised
It’s amazing how far athletic talents and a couple skills can take you.
I like Thibodeau but I also liked Collins. Is Thibodeau better than Vinny?
My impression of Thibodeau is based on the announcers praising him as a defensive guru. I also believe that Boston’s rotation and desire defensively are noticeable and is to be commended. However, I thought we fired Vinny because we wanted a big name experienced coach. I thought Doug Collins would be terrific. Thibodeau may be terrific but we do not know. He never was a head coach. Rivers imploring his team “to play as a team” during time outs seemed to impact the players. Can Thibodeau rise to the occasion? Maybe or maybe not. He is an unknown as a head coach. He is my second choice behind Collins but will he really be better than Vinny? I know I know there will be responses that anyone is better than Vinny. Do you guys remember the last few weeks before Skiles was fired? The team gave up on him and were terrible. That never happened with Vinny despite some horrible heartbreaking losses. Every season has moments of real adversity. Vinny got the team through adversity and we miraculously made the playoffs. Will Thibodeau be better than Vinny? I certainly hope so. However we are again going with someoe who has no headcoaching experience. How do we know how he will relate as a headcoach? When we are struggling and there will be moments next year we will be struggling and everyone will be calling for Thibodeau’s head will he perservere with grace and not lose the team as Vinny did? I certainly hope so but we do not know and are essentially starting over again.
Compared to Vinny
He has a lot of experience. Not as a HC, but still a hell of a lot more coaching experience than Vinny Del Negro.
"A common mistake made by baseball fans is to call a pitcher unhittable when that pitcher is not Matt Thornton." - Hardball Times
by Grinder in Training on May 24, 2010 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions
I thought we were looking for a top NBA head coach to match wits in the finals with the opposing head coach.
No doubt about Thibs having more coaching experience than VDN. However, I see us taking a big step forward. My dream – We are in the finals against the Lakers. Who can coach against Phil Jackson? IMO Phil outcoached JVG when Jeff was with the Knicks. Is Thibs at that level we can win a championship over Phil Jackson? No one knows. Thibs does not have that kind of experience. I thought we were looking for someone at the level of the top coaches in the NBA. Thibs may prove to be one but I did not think we were again looking for someone needing headcoaching on the job training. By the way in terms of on the job training Vinny did pretty well.
A big name came up
Lenny Wilkens
But I really don’t have an opinion on him
by JustAnotherFan on May 24, 2010 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions
He wants back in
to keep more victories on his coaching resume, so he can keep the most coaching wins record, because IMO, Don Nelson is only coaching to get the record.
by QUINTEN DALEY on May 24, 2010 4:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Who, who who?
That is the question I have been asking when the talk of firing VDN began. I would have kept Vinny unless we had a specific coach in mind to replace him and knew we could get him. Now we fired him and there is no consensus choice better than Vinny. The often response to my posts are anyone is better than Vinny without giving specific names. Then names come up and there are plenty of reasons to questions the choice. You should not fire a coach who has done arguably pretty good without an idea of who is going to replace him. When Doug Collins was fired by Krause he had made a choice before the firing – Phil Jackson who was immediately named head coach..
I would love him to be our next coach.
If we can’t get Phil Jackson, Doc Rivers, or Jeff Van Gundy, in that order, than Thibodeau would be a great pick up. While I am not a big fan of the Celtics, I love their attitude on the court. It reminds me of the old Bull teams. I think he is exactly the type of guy we need if we want to keep Rose, Noah and the gang focused. He would also be a perfect coach for Lebron and Bosh if we got them.
The thing is
none of those 3 are coming.
by Stacey_Is_King on May 25, 2010 8:39 PM CDT up reply actions
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