Sources: Bosh gives Raptors wish list
[From the FanShots. Figured this would be a fun way to start the weekend -ed.]
"The list of five teams -- Toronto plus the Chicago Bulls, Los Angeles Lakers, Miami Heat and New York Knicks, sources said -- were given to Toronto management in case the Raptors want to construct a sign-and-trade deal (assuming he doesn't re-sign with Toronto). "
"One source said Bosh's decision hinges on where LeBron James signs."
"If LeBron decides to go to either New York or Chicago, I think that's where you'll see Chris land," the source told Ford. "If LeBron stays in Cleveland, I think the process is more wide open."
This feels a lot more bad then good to me. Good that we're on the short list, but bad because this means New York is a real option, and if Lebron and Bosh go to New York, we're pretty much screwed.
about 2 years ago
Juiceboxjerry
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damn. the bulls cant compete with the lakers offer. hell, they might not be able to compete
with miami’s totally crappy offer. — I thought you wanted to be the Man, Chris!
"Why don't you do what my buddies and I used to do when we were hard up for dates?"
"Invade Korea?"
Dunno
Nobody even signed the damn article. This looks more like sauces than sources. But I see your point. Things don’t look so great. However we will have to wait and see if the Lakers want this and would be on the table from miami. I am still not sold that he wants to play with LBJ that badly.
"here we are now; entertain us"
by JustAnotherFan on May 21, 2010 3:31 PM CDT up reply actions
it's true
if he really wants to be the man, i can’t see him going to the lakers.
but then i don’t see him going where lebron does, either.
so hard to say cause we’ve already seen reports that says he’s got one foot out the door – yet this says toronto is still on his list.
not gonna really believe anything, just gotta wait it out.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
The Bulls don't have to compete with any other team's offers, they just have to convince Bosh this is where he should go
It will be found an unjust and unwise jealousy to deprive a man of his natural liberty upon the supposition he may abuse it.
George Washington
What the raptors get back is less important than what he wants to do, they can only sign and trade him to where he wants to go. If Lebron goes to the Bulls, Bosh wants to go to the Bulls, he tells that to the Raptors and they try to get what they can get in a sign and trade.
by CavsLebronFan on May 21, 2010 9:34 PM CDT up reply actions
I think the part about him going with LeBron is good for us
either:
A.) we end up with both, which is totally awesome.
or
B.) they both end up in New York. In this case, I don’t think Boozer or Lee going to Miami will convince Wade to stay and it looks like PHX will be resigning Stoudamire. So, Wade then surprises the world and signs with the Bulls.
I think Rose + Wade + Deng + Gibson + Noah w/ Hinrich, James Johnson, Brad Miller(?) and a draft pick off the bench is at least as good, if not better than whatever the Knicks could throw around LeBron and Bosh.
I got the skills to pay the bills and that's about it
by Rose Colored Goggles on May 21, 2010 3:32 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
that part about amare
not true.
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/16104/source-amares-return-to-suns-unlikely
brace for the worst:
amare/joe johnson/wade in miami
lebron/bosh in NY
boozer to NJN
Lee in TOR
or the best:
noah/rose/bosh/lebron/kurt (still team captain).
"4 inches, baby!" --ripped off from Kush
by anorexorcist on May 21, 2010 4:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Ugh
amare/joe johnson/wade in miami lebron/bosh in NY boozer to NJN Lee in TOR
that would be awful. Who would we get? Rudy Gay? Ray Allen? JJ Reddick???
I got the skills to pay the bills and that's about it
by Rose Colored Goggles on May 21, 2010 4:56 PM CDT up reply actions
carmelo for 2011
Doesn’t seem very moral to me. Might as well take Satan’s autograph while you’re at it. - N.C.
by Illini0509 on May 21, 2010 5:31 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
How the hell Miami ends up with 3 FA?
Beside wade, I think they only have money for one more max contract…
Jannero Pargo = Larry Hughes 2.0
i think i read somewhere
that if they unload beasley, they could have enough. not exactly how they field an entire team with 3 max guys though
Doesn’t seem very moral to me. Might as well take Satan’s autograph while you’re at it. - N.C.
*not exactly sure
Doesn’t seem very moral to me. Might as well take Satan’s autograph while you’re at it. - N.C.
they have about 9 million left over after the 2 max (wade + whoever)
they can sign one more guy. some heat fans think JJ will settle for 9 mill and a chance to win.
"4 inches, baby!" --ripped off from Kush
by anorexorcist on May 21, 2010 6:05 PM CDT up reply actions
even if he won't
gay could go for 9m
Doesn’t seem very moral to me. Might as well take Satan’s autograph while you’re at it. - N.C.
Doubt it...
He is an RFA, the Grizz would match that in a heartbeat…
Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.
yeah 9m prob wouldn't get it done
i remember someone linked to a heisley profile piece that basically said he couldn’t afford to keep gay. looks like he’s changed his stance since then.
Doesn’t seem very moral to me. Might as well take Satan’s autograph while you’re at it. - N.C.
He turned down an offer better than that from the Grizz this last off-season.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Link?
Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.
Nope
Let’s say they had absolutely nobody on their roster. 3 max FAs = $16.5 mil x 3 = $49.5 mil. But then you have 10 roster holds for minimum salary players (about 500K), so that’s $5 mil of cap space you can’t use. So $49.5 mil +$5 mil = $54.5 mil. The cap’s projected to be $55-56 mil, so that’s just barely under.
So to get 3 max players, they’d have to clear everybody and field a roster of those 3 max players + 10 minimum salary guys.
Brad Miller is god.
right
that’s kinda what i figured.
Doesn’t seem very moral to me. Might as well take Satan’s autograph while you’re at it. - N.C.
Correct me if I'm wrong...
But Miami should be allowed to go over the cap to re-sign Wade, since he’s their own free agent. What you said is right if a team was starting from scratch. But the Heat should be able to sign 2 max guys, then re-sign Wade and go over the cap.
by That's Ridiculous on May 21, 2010 9:02 PM CDT up reply actions
Nope
When you use your cap space to sign a free agent, you lose all your exceptions, including your Birds’ Rights Exceptions (the ones used to resign your own players). If Miami burned all their cap space on other free agents, they would not be allowed to resign Wade. Similarly, we can’t use all our cap space and then give a $5 mil deal to Brad Miller.
Brad Miller is god.
by Poloplaya14 on May 21, 2010 10:20 PM CDT up reply actions
If gain players through trades
We would get the exceptions, right? So if we did a sign and trade for LeBron and Bosh, we could give Miller the MLE?
I think so, but I'm not sure
Brad Miller is god.
by Poloplaya14 on May 21, 2010 11:24 PM CDT up reply actions
No this is not possible.
The scenario Tuluse laid out is missing the point. If you renounce Miller, you’ve lost Bird rights. And with Miller’s bird rights holding up so much cap room, any likely S&T with Toronto/Cleveland is going to need some of that.
Also, teams lose the right to the MLE and those types of exceptions to sign players (except the minimum exception) because that’s how teams open up cap space in the first place.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
No problem.
One other point I need to make too. Teams don’t necessarily lose Bird Rights on a player either. Unless Miami has taken a stupid pill (of which I doubt), they won’t renounce Wade. The whole reason Bird Rights exist for a team re-signing their own player is that they can use those rights to go over the cap and sign that player for the most amount of years and money.
Miami doesn’t have to renounce Wade to sign a Max FA. They have plenty of space to sign another max guy plus re-sign Wade using his Bird Rights. That’s been the plan all along.
What Miami CAN’T do is keep the rights of guys like Udonis Haslem and Jermaine O’Neal and have the cap space to sign those FA’s. The cap holds of Haslem/O’Neal would keep Miami from signing any other team’s FA.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
That's what I thought for a while
But then I read something a while ago saying that because Orlando acquired rashard Lewis in a sign and trade and not as a straight-up signing, so they still had their MLE.
Brad Miller is god.
That is the case, teams can retain their MLE by using trades or S/Ts
to exhaust their cap space. Same thing happened w/ Toronto last year. They traded for Turk and signed Jack to the MLE
It will be found an unjust and unwise jealousy to deprive a man of his natural liberty upon the supposition he may abuse it.
George Washington
That's cuz Toronto was over the cap & not under
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
They were under the cap
Because the Turkoglu offer became a sign and trade, the Raptors were able to preserve their mid-level exception ($5.8 million next season), which they used on Jack.
It will be found an unjust and unwise jealousy to deprive a man of his natural liberty upon the supposition he may abuse it.
George Washington
No Orlando didn't have their MLE because they were under the cap
They had to renounce the MLE in order to have cap space.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
The MLE cannot be renounced. A team under the cap does not have it
and it doesn’t count against the cap. Only when a team is over the cap or less than the full MLE under the cap do they get the MLE.
It will be found an unjust and unwise jealousy to deprive a man of his natural liberty upon the supposition he may abuse it.
George Washington
That is not entirely true...
You only lose your exceptions if you renounce your rights to that player…so, in theory, the Bulls will continue to hold Birds rights for every player until the moment they sigh a free agent to a contract…if for whatever reason, they do not use their cap space to sign someone, then they will own cap rights to all of their players as well as their cap exception of the MLE
Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.
Right
But all you’re saying there is that if the Bulls strike out completely in free agency, we’ll still have Brad Miller’s bird rights and the MLE. Not exactly reassuring.
Brad Miller is god.
by Poloplaya14 on May 22, 2010 2:17 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
well, so much for the no-leverage idea
you’d hope Bosh would have more interest in his future than that list. I’d hope it’s just a start and he narrows his choice later. Else it indeed comes down to who has the best to deal.
BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 21, 2010 3:39 PM CDT reply actions
Yeah,
That’s what I’m assuming. He’s going to narrow down the list from there. I don’t think he’s going to let the org that he’s leaving have the final say in who he goes to.
2010... where relevant basketball in Chicago happens!
I hate that Bosh did this. Took away all of his leverage and his that of his future team (hopefully the Bulls).
by fundamentallysound on May 21, 2010 5:13 PM CDT up reply actions
He still has leverage.
If he’s not happy with the deals the raps work out he could just walk for nothing.
precisely!!!!!
if i’m the player who wants to win, why would i want my (new) roster significantly diminished?
leverage ranking:
a) player
b) new team
…
…
…
…
…old team
The name of the team is ARIZONA DIAMONDBACKS
by marionette on May 21, 2010 5:19 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
That's not what he's saying
He’s saying if Toronto were to insist on getting, say, Joakim Noah from the Bulls, Bosh would probably say “no, I want him with me in Chicago” and just walk.
Brad Miller is god.
Then they can call his bluff and he signs with the Knicks and suck for the next 5 years
Bosh 2010!!!!!
Or they call his bluff and he signs with us and pwns for the next 5 years
That’s what I was thinking.
Brad Miller is god.
i would agree with this
i cant imagine the 6th year is more important than having another really important piece in place.
Doesn’t seem very moral to me. Might as well take Satan’s autograph while you’re at it. - N.C.
assuming bosh (or any max guy) ends up signing another contract after this one
what is the difference? i think someone provided a comment or post on this subject.. something between 5-7 m?
Doesn’t seem very moral to me. Might as well take Satan’s autograph while you’re at it. - N.C.
The difference is $30 mil - whatever Bosh would get in the first year of his new deal after 5 years.
Brad Miller is god.
No. It is not.
Unless he is signing his next contract for zero dollars. Assuming he doesn’t collapse as a basketball player he’ll get another giant salary so it’s basically what Illini said, 5 – 7 million.
"A common mistake made by baseball fans is to call a pitcher unhittable when that pitcher is not Matt Thornton." - Hardball Times
by Grinder in Training on May 23, 2010 4:11 PM CDT up reply actions
Polo was doing a math equation
Though I admit that it was hard to understand as written.
(30 million) – (Value of 1st year of new contract in 5 years) = The difference
Ah, missed it. Thought it was a dash.
I was already drunk at that point. I blame the Blackhawks.
"A common mistake made by baseball fans is to call a pitcher unhittable when that pitcher is not Matt Thornton." - Hardball Times
by Grinder in Training on May 24, 2010 8:20 AM CDT up reply actions
well some of those teams
like the lakers and the bulls if they already got lebron can only get him via a trade. i don’t think the list is that unreasonable from him, he’s a hot commodity, he’s just trying to have a little say in it, and while not all of those are good teams they’re certainly big markets
Not really true
Id be telling them to be ready to make deals with as many of these teams as possible just to make sure my $20+ million dollars wasnt hinging on them scouting my 3 top choices in 2 days…not saying heres a list send me where you want.
Exactly
This means nothing. Teams can start talking about sign and trade scenarios right now. That way, when Bosh does make his final decision the details will have already been ironed out.
Plus, the fact that he included Toronto on that list makes me believe that some of the teams are just in there for filler. It seems that Miami, NY, and Chicago are his top choices, just like everyone has been assuming for a while now.
If he goes to the Lakers, who'd Toronto get in return?
Bynum? He doesn’t seem to fit their system, and do they really want to pay him ~15 million over the next two-three years, as that’s what he’s signed for?
As for the Heat, do they have the salaries to match, or do salaries not need to match in a sign and trade? Currently, they only own the rights to Beasley, Chalmers, Cook and and James Jones, who collectively make 12.5 million, I think. If salaries have to match, they’d have to trade everyone but Wade for Bosh. Does Bosh want to go to a team with Wade and a bunch of cheap free agents?
If that list is real, I say it’s really down to the Bulls and Knicks.
Metal sharpens metal.
And this guy right here understands and knows what leadership is all about: The coach, the hall of famer......... Dick Butka! George Ryan
The Bulls shrink like a dick in cold water.
doesn't
if the team has the space to absorb the salary
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
K, thanks.
Metal sharpens metal.
And this guy right here understands and knows what leadership is all about: The coach, the hall of famer......... Dick Butka! George Ryan
The Bulls shrink like a dick in cold water.
If a team is under the cap, they can bring in greater salary than they send out in a trade or sign/trade
Bosh would be killer in the Triangle, especially with a versatile post player like Pau. Both are good passers for big men.
It will be found an unjust and unwise jealousy to deprive a man of his natural liberty upon the supposition he may abuse it.
George Washington
No doubt,
but would Toronto take Bynum in return? LA has no cap space, so they’d need to do a S&T and make it worthwhile for Tor. I don’t think Bynum is what Tor is looking for. Unfortunately, I don’t know if we have much that they’re interested in either.
Metal sharpens metal.
And this guy right here understands and knows what leadership is all about: The coach, the hall of famer......... Dick Butka! George Ryan
The Bulls shrink like a dick in cold water.
The Raptors were flirting with being the worst defensive team in the NBA this season
With Calderon, Turk, and Bargnani under contract, they’re not going to be under the cap for awhile. Bynum would give them the interior defensive presence they desperately need and pair well with Bargnani in the front court.
It will be found an unjust and unwise jealousy to deprive a man of his natural liberty upon the supposition he may abuse it.
George Washington
Bynum is overpaid
but I don’t think that Toronto can get a better piece than him from anyone. A strong defensive center would actually be great next to Bargnani.
Because he makes 14 million escalating
A number which is near or at his max, and has played 35, 50, and 65 games the last 3 seasons. Even looking at his per game numbers, 15 and 8 is not worth quite as much as he’s getting.
He’s not severely overpaid (assuming he stays healthy which is a big assumption), which is why I said it’s the best that Toronto can do, but I stand by my opinion that he is overpaid.
If he stays healthy, he's not overpaid.
He doesn’t play a ton of minutes. His 15 and 8 is 18 and 10 per 36 minutes, and he scores very efficiently. He’s also an excellent defender, so I think that’s worth $15 mil, if he’s healthy.
Brad Miller is god.
he's the 3rd option
playing alongside kobe and pau. those numbers are decent and he’ll probably be more productive with more touches and minutes.
i’d be leery of his knee injuries and the length of his contract, if i were a raptor fan.
a good, strong, true center creates space and driving lanes. kendrick perkins isn’t going to push bynum out to 15 ft. that’s one reason as a laker fan i’d rather have bynum than bosh. neither bosh nor gasol can really hold their ground against guys like perkins.
"I've hacked into your brain. You're throwing a party and no one's showing up."
I'm not just going to assume that he can play 36 minutes a game.
Why hasn’’t he ever played over 30 minutes a game? Is he getting tired? Is he in foul trouble? Is he not as effective in certain matchups? Is the team worried about injuries? I don’t care what someone averages per 36 if I don’t believe he’ll ever play that much.
Being able to get to the court, and being able to stay on the court are both skills that matter to me when giving out salary.
I also don’t think you can run your offense through him. Yes, he’s good at the garbage points and easy assisted buckets, but I don’t see him getting as many of those in a less polished offense with lesser players. He’s got a few offensive moves, but none are what id call dependable. Replace Bosh with Bynum and the offense takes a pretty dramatic hit.
He never plays a ton of minutes because of the Lakers' rotation
Phil prefers playing Odom for long stretches with Gasol, especially to close out games, so Bynum gets his minutes decreased as a result.
As for his offensive game, he has a fairly refined post game and a soft touch around the basket. The current playoffs aren’t a great example because his mobility and lift are limited, but he’s very good at getting deep post position and has good moves around the basket. Naturally, Toronto’s offense will take a hit with Bosh leaving, but the defense should improve significantly with Bynum in the middle.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.
I think the Raps would be thriiled to get Bynum
Even though he has a high price tag, it’s not that many years, and he’s the EXACT type of player they need next to Bargnani. Really though, who the hell knows how this is gonna work out? There are so many different scenarios it could make your head spin. For example, all these guys could be playing in these other cities and we could end up with Wade. There’s just too many possibilities to get too down or too up.
If you're reading this signature, there's a good chance you don't like Vinny Del Negro.
by Juiceboxjerry on May 21, 2010 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions
He could fit well
But I think you exaggerate when you call him Really though. That bitch is always injured
"here we are now; entertain us"
by JustAnotherFan on May 21, 2010 4:14 PM CDT up reply actions
That's true
but if there’s one thing we know about NBA teams/front offices, it’s that they will always take risks when it comes to talented players
If you're reading this signature, there's a good chance you don't like Vinny Del Negro.
by Juiceboxjerry on May 21, 2010 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions
I like Bynum alot
But he’s going to battle injuries his whole career
"Michael Redd's owed 18.3 million next year. He can either opt out like an idiot or opt in like a douche bag." - NittanyCub
The Heat could also sign and trade any of their expiring players...
Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.
Yes. The rumor is Bynum.
Although I can’t see how that could have possibly been substantiated by the actual LAL organization, what with the playoffs going on and all.
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
Here's the play...
If Minny selects DeMarcus Cousins (and they should even if Wes Johnson was Jonny Flynn’s teammate @ ‘Cuse), they’ll need a decent wing player, and they’re overloaded on big heavyfooted PF/C’s. So: trade Deng to Minny for Al Jefferson, and send him to Toronto for Bosh (since the Bulls will be under the cap, they don’t have to match salaries). This will get Toronto a quality young big, potentially a 20/10 guy, to replace Bosh. It will also save them money (Jefferson’s $12 M for Bosh’s $16M). It also makes the Bulls that much more attractive to LeBron, should he come here. I think that’s a realistic scenario if we can’t sign him straight up.
Just got done discussing this with Timberwolves fans
they seem to be very interested in this, but will probably also ask for swapping our #17 for #23.
I'm sure that will be a major sticking point preventing the Org. from getting Bosh/LeBron...
by pooriejay on May 21, 2010 4:15 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Minny will have a stable of 6'10-6'11 guys and no (decent) wings...
I’m thinking they don’t dither with sweetners, if they want Deng thye can have him for Al Jeff straight up.
If that's it
Then swap picks.
Moving Jefferson should excite Wolves fans. Getting Deng should be a terrific consolation.
What I worry about is the Wolves asking for Noah too.
12/31/08: Fire Vinny Del Negro.(upd: 1/7/10)
by NBA Observer on May 21, 2010 4:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Rose and Noah are untouchable! So says the Org...
Deng AND Noah for Al Jefferson?? Really?
Only if they throw in the number 2 pick
and a private game of hoops with Prince.
I got the skills to pay the bills and that's about it
by Rose Colored Goggles on May 21, 2010 5:02 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
I've liked Noah since Florida and was thrilled when he fell to the Bulls
So there’s no way I’m doing this. But then I’m not GarPaxDorf…
This is good news
Always a good thing whenever a superstar mentions the Bulls in his ideal top 2.
The best news is that Bosh follows LeBron, and that can easily happen with both players having the same representation. If this story is true, LeBron can either
sign in Cleveland and have to work like a dog to win a title, or
LeBron + Wade + nothing in Miami, or
LeBron + Bosh + nothing in New York, or
LeBron + Bosh + Rose + Noah + Deng in Chicago. OH MY GOD. If LeBron is into building his own brand, 10 consecutive titles should do the job.
by YaoPau on May 21, 2010 4:17 PM CDT reply actions 4 recs
I totally agree with that post
However, I dont see Lebron/Bosh leaving without giving their teams a chance for sign-trade.
No one wants to be the GM that traded LeBron.
Don’t count on it.
and many here think
that the sign and trades will be ones with significant talent in return, despite historical evidence and assuming the departing team has actual leverage. admittedly, the quantity of players (individual and team) is unprecedented, but i just don’t see it.
The name of the team is ARIZONA DIAMONDBACKS
i dont think kupchak wanted to be the gm that traded shaq
but fact is its better to lose them for something as opposed to nothing
by sin on May 21, 2010 5:28 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
who plays the 2 in that line-up, YaoPau?
We’ll have to give up Deng to get Bosh, whether directly or indirectly. Unless Xavier Henry falls to #17 (please fall, please fall), we have no 2. I still think this lineup wins a title on its own merits:
Rose/Hinrich
Hinrich/henry?/James Anderson
LeBron/Johnson
Bosh/Taj
Noah/Asik
oh god! use a little out of box thinking, will you?
nobody’s beating that starting five! (though deng is a bit overpaid, lebron would be underpaid at “max”.)
a roster worth going into luxury tax land for!
The name of the team is ARIZONA DIAMONDBACKS
you could start lebron at 2
you could start M 80 at the 2 (probably very limited minutes, i’m guessing)
if the ball handling is sufficient (and it would be), all that really matters in the defensive match ups, which wouldn’t be lacking at all i say. in fact, coach would probably want them to focus on not switching so easily…
eh, it’s all just fantastic fun fantasy.
The name of the team is ARIZONA DIAMONDBACKS
I don't think Deng would be able to play at the off guard spot...
Who cares who would play 2
You’d have 4 all-stars in your starting line-up. All you would need at the 2 is someone who could shoot because they’ll be wide open all the time.
by Badmotostinkfinger on May 21, 2010 4:40 PM CDT up reply actions
no kidding
and Hinrich, as much as I hate his stupid face, would be fine. He’s best when you don’t need him to do anything.
BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 21, 2010 4:41 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
he could just get out of the way. that's what he does best.
by fundamentallysound on May 21, 2010 5:49 PM CDT up reply actions
i think hinrich is more valuable than everyone is thinking
glue guys are important when there are two huge egos on the court at the same time
I'm thinking the same thing
he does a good job of spreading the ball around (especially compared to the likes of Joe Johnson) and we’ll need that on a team full of guys that need the ball
by darksmokepuncher on May 22, 2010 6:38 AM CDT up reply actions
the great thing about guys like Hinrich is they're a dime a dozen
the bad thing with guys like Hinrich is org’s get attached to the ones they have
It will be found an unjust and unwise jealousy to deprive a man of his natural liberty upon the supposition he may abuse it.
George Washington
that's just false
Hinrich is a streaky shooter.
He passes up wide open shots.
He doesn’t make any effort to get to the basket.
That being said, there isn’t some abundance of players that play off the ball and average more assists than him. Some of the few names that do beat him in that category start with Kobe, Lebron and Dwyane. See for yourself:
<a href=“http:// ”http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player//stat/assists/sort/avgAssists/year/2010/seasontype/2" target="blank">http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/assists/sort/avgAssists/year/2010/seasontype/2" >
In a lineup with 4 potential all-stars, the last thing you need is a 5th option calling for an iso.
by darksmokepuncher on May 23, 2010 8:33 AM CDT up reply actions
I agree, you need a guy who can play D and sit beyond the arc and wait to for open 3s
Kirk’s not ideal, but he’s suitable for that role. I’d rather have a better 3 pt shooter and sacrifice some D. There are plenty of guys in the league who foot that bill. Oh, and while his passing is a nice benefit, again, assist rate for a guy who will be a forgotten about 5th option left completely alone most of the time is not a top priority.
It will be found an unjust and unwise jealousy to deprive a man of his natural liberty upon the supposition he may abuse it.
George Washington
he's not going to be left completely alone by any player with a brain
that’s why defenses rotate.
the whole drive to the basket and kick out to the open man routine fails miserably in the playoffs because solid defenders force those kick-out players to actually make the right play.
See: Mo Williams, Anthony Parker, Rashard Lewis, Rudy Fernandez, Quentin Richardson etc.
good nba teams are smart enough to take advantage of players who can’t make plays for anyone else.
by darksmokepuncher on May 23, 2010 9:14 AM CDT up reply actions
The guys you mentioned can't create for others or, more importantly, for
themselves (excluding Rudy under normal circumstances). Watch what happens to Rashard, the Celtics close out on him and he doesn’t know what to do with the ball. The Celtics know he doesn’t like to drive so they play him insanely tight and the rest of the team is covered. Kirk wouldn’t fare much better in a similar situation as even if he drives he can’t finish. They all have flaws. I don’t think Kirk’s particularly worse, I just don’t think he’s better either. He’s just an average player and, in the bell curve, that’s where you’ll find most players.
It will be found an unjust and unwise jealousy to deprive a man of his natural liberty upon the supposition he may abuse it.
George Washington
deng would have all day (technically, many of the 24 seconds) to improve on his 38.6%
The name of the team is ARIZONA DIAMONDBACKS
If Boston doesn’t win it all Ray Allen could be an option for the MLE, i presume he’ll be ring chasing before he retires and if the Bulls have a bigger Big 3 (Lebron+Rose+Bosh) than the Celtics had in 08, plus Noah, Ray would know the Bulls would be favorites and he’d happily come.
by CavsLebronFan on May 21, 2010 9:39 PM CDT up reply actions
The only thing preventing the third scenario is finding a way to deal Kirk or Deng in a S/T
Freaking Glue Guy, why couldn’t they have dealt him for expirings when they had the chance?
It will be found an unjust and unwise jealousy to deprive a man of his natural liberty upon the supposition he may abuse it.
George Washington
Agreed and
If anything’s new out of this, it’s:
1) Bosh doesn’t mind being the sidekick to LeBron or Wade
2) Houston and Dallas aren’t the players they thought they were
good catch
2) Houston and Dallas aren’t the players (for bosh) they thought they were
The name of the team is ARIZONA DIAMONDBACKS
btw, as the protocol dungeonmaster
this should’ve been a fanpost, JBJ.
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"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 21, 2010 4:22 PM CDT reply actions
Gotcha, sometimes I get a little confused as to what goes where
If you're reading this signature, there's a good chance you don't like Vinny Del Negro.
by Juiceboxjerry on May 21, 2010 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions
As a general rule, I'd advise everyone
fanpost first, unless you have nothing to say and just want to get the link up.
FanShots get lost quick, plus there are technical reasons in the blogging fanposts are easier to find from the outside.
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"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 21, 2010 4:40 PM CDT up reply actions
K, so any editorializing and/or quoting articles = fanpost
Fanshots are strictly for links, videos, quotes etc. Right?
If you're reading this signature, there's a good chance you don't like Vinny Del Negro.
by Juiceboxjerry on May 21, 2010 4:49 PM CDT up reply actions
I really don't get how one day he wants to be the man
And no they’re indicating he would wanna go where LeBron ends up?
Make up your mind man.
And yeah, I’m really scared of the Lakers offering Bynum. We can’t match that unless we give up Noah.
Unless he tells them he’s going to Chicago regardless and they might as well get ‘something’ in return
long term (and assuming LeBron came here)
wouldn’t Chicago be a better choice than LA anyways? sure, for the next year or two he’d have a great shot at a ring in LA, but after that it could suck. who knows how much longer Kobe can keep going, and once he can’t, then what?
Gasol and Bosh
Can give you a chance at a ring for a long time
Kobe still has 4 to 5 good years left in him as well
ok
so it wouldn’t be awful. but still, wouldn’t you rather go with Rose/LeBron/Noah in their primes? i would.
I think he rather would but if he gives Toronto a wish list of 5 teams
That’s kind of like saying to Toronto, “I wanna go to any of these teams. You work out the best possible deal for yourselves”
At that point, it’s up to Toronto cause he’d be fine with any of those teams
I don't
Bynum getting defensive attention is nothing close to Jefferson.
12/31/08: Fire Vinny Del Negro.(upd: 1/7/10)
by NBA Observer on May 21, 2010 4:37 PM CDT up reply actions
Jefferson draws a double team....
…Bynum has trouble being the help in a double team, and doesn’t even draw one defender
I think Bynum is better
But they run that offense through Gasol so he’s never really able to display his skills.
Look at when Gasol was out for the early part of this year. Bynum was putting up monster numbers
by Option27 on May 21, 2010 4:42 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Bynum is a force and he's very young
I’d rather have him than Al (empty numbers) Jefferson.
"Michael Redd's owed 18.3 million next year. He can either opt out like an idiot or opt in like a douche bag." - NittanyCub
by Trey23 on May 21, 2010 5:20 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
me too. but i like bynum, and dislike jefferson.
"Why don't you do what my buddies and I used to do when we were hard up for dates?"
"Invade Korea?"
Bynum is by far Jefferson's superior as a defender
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.
Doesn't basing your move
on Lebron’s move make you look pretty weak?
I’d rather read about Bosh declaring his view from a point of strength. He should be on the hunt. Not looking to trail a hunter.
12/31/08: Fire Vinny Del Negro.(upd: 1/7/10)
by NBA Observer on May 21, 2010 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah but I'm sure he's thinking outside that box as well.
I think he’s even unsure of what he wants.
Like I wrote, sometimes he says he wants to be the man and sometimes it looks like he wants rings.
Ultimately, rings are what defines you . . . sadly
I hate that argument by the way
Maybe he’s unselfish, I think this means he’d rather be the 2nd or 3rd option on the championship favorites and retire with a hand full of rings than the number 1 guy on a 40 win team, because if he wanted the latter he could stay in Toronto.
by CavsLebronFan on May 21, 2010 9:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Or maybe he wants the best of both worlds - to be the number 1 guy and still win a few rings
He could have that in Chicago, assuming Lebron doesn’t come here.
Brad Miller is god.
by Poloplaya14 on May 21, 2010 10:21 PM CDT up reply actions
SG
Someona has thought signing Randy Foye for the 2 spot, he must come cheap, he can score, he can shoot the 3, decent on defense.
Why so much emphasis on Bosh saying he wants to be the man?
What guy in the NBA wouldn’t say that? “Yeah, I’d prefer to be a sidekick, I dont have what it takes to be the man.” If he wants titles he wont care if he’s the best player on the team. And I’ll worry about it turning into Shaq-Kobe after they win 3 titles.
by Badmotostinkfinger on May 21, 2010 4:44 PM CDT reply actions
Any combination of players that aren't Rose or Noah.
Deng, Kurt, Johnson draft pick and so on.
I kinda wanna hang onto Taj, too… (Gets ready for a massive stoning)
FFS
Around the trade deadline, I commented that I would hesitate to move Taj for Amare since we could likely sign a better player without giving up Taj, and I got killed for that.
Now he’s too much to give up for Bosh.
Brad Miller is god.
Fine by me
But then we’re hoping LeBron just walks from the Cavs. We’d have nothing left to trade
Toronto won't take Kirk
They already have Calderon and Jarrett Jack, who both play pretty similar to Hinrich.
by That's Ridiculous on May 21, 2010 9:18 PM CDT up reply actions
I wouldn't say either one's similar to Hinrich
Hinrich’s strength is his defense. Calderon and Jack are both defensive-minded PGs. They play the same position, but that’s where the similarities die.
Brad Miller is god.
by Poloplaya14 on May 21, 2010 10:25 PM CDT up reply actions
If LeBron jumps to Chicago first
And Bosh says his choices are s&t to Chicago or sign outright with the Knicks, my thought is that Colangelo would rather give him to Chicago. After all, Toronto is a speedboat away from the New York border, and Colangelo doesn’t want to lose Bosh for nothing. Colangelo would hold leverage of his own though obviously, since without him Bosh couldn’t come to Chicago.
So I think they meet halfway. Instead of asking for Deng + Noah + pick, Colangelo asks for Hinrich + Taj + JJ + multiple 1sts, and the deal gets done as long as a GM freezeout doesn’t prevent it. The Bulls instantly become benchless, but at that point any 34+ year old free agent starts treating Reinsdorf like Hypnotoad.
"The Bulls instantly become benchless"
Isn’t this why, if we get LBJ, to should be satisfied with adding someone like Ray Allen?
Plus, by adding someone like Allen, we have a balanced roster with 20 year olds to 35 year olds. And now we can start an orderly development program where someone exits at one end and someone else enters at the beginning.
Lack of bench might cost a few wins in the regular season but come playoff time you can get away
with a 7-8 man rotation. Oh, and screw age balance. Then you have to go searching for replacements in a couple seasons. Having a core of guys in their early to mid 20s allows the Bulls to simply keep adding on as they dominate the NBA for 5-7 years.
It will be found an unjust and unwise jealousy to deprive a man of his natural liberty upon the supposition he may abuse it.
George Washington
the $64mil question
i don’t think they’d want to pay for deng, and they already are stuck with turk.
to me, the players have all the leverage. and once they made the decision to break free of the old team, deciding on the new team will be more important than the money, since these are max deals and the money would be very close. (otherwise, they’d all go to where there’s no state income tax.)
but maybe bosh won’t whittle it down to a single team preference. maybe he tells colangelo “make your best deal with either the bulls or the lakers”, who knows?
if it’s the bulls, i don’t think toronto will be getting much back, just whatever than can justify or live with through their heartbreak. james johnson and/or draft pick(s).
The name of the team is ARIZONA DIAMONDBACKS
If we sign Lebron straight up 1st, leaving us with minimum cap-space
which would give us the least leverage since we will be competing with the Lake Show. I say we would have to package Deng, Noah and the Bobcats pick to the Raps to land Bosh.
I would rather swap Gibson for Noah in that scenario, but remember the deadline trade rumor of Deng and Noah for Bosh? It just might be true. I don’t think the Org will miss an opportunity to land Lebron and Bosh and turn it down to keep Noah.
I love Noah and would hate to see him go, but it just may happen in that scenario.
Bosh 2010!!!!!
No chance the Raps ask for Noah with a straight face
Historically, teams get back very little when trading a star player in a S&T. Once Bosh says he wants to go to Chicago, what are the Raps gonna do? Are they really going to force Bosh to sign with the Knicks and get nothing? Why ruin the team’s reputation with future free agents by trying to stick it to Bosh? They can’t force him to play for LA if he wants to come to Chicago. If Bosh says he wants Chicago, the Raps will take back anything reasonable. He’s not going to re-sign with Toronto. If he leaves for nothing, that’s basically like committing financial suicide as the fans flee the team in droves. The Raps are at his mercy. He knows it and they know it.
Remember, the Bulls traded Pippen to Houston for Roy Rogers and a 2nd round pick.
by That's Ridiculous on May 21, 2010 9:29 PM CDT up reply actions
Here's the problem though
If we sign Lebron first, we have no more cap space, so in order to get Bosh we need to work a S + T. It’s no longer the case where Bosh can say “if you won’t agree to a S + T, I’ll just sign anyways.” We would need to put together an package that Toronto would accept.
Brad Miller is god.
by Poloplaya14 on May 21, 2010 10:27 PM CDT up reply actions
Right, and, we'd be over the cap, so it'd be difficult
to make the salaries match.
2010... where relevant basketball in Chicago happens!
I should say...
not over the cap, but not much left. Actually, If we sign Lebron, I think we have about 5 mil left. That plus Deng should be enough for Bosh.
No guarantee’s that Toronto wants Deng though.
2010... where relevant basketball in Chicago happens!
Exactly
Although at that point, we’d have Lebron, so I’d be too excited to care if we got Bosh too.
Brad Miller is god.
This is what I'm confused with
I dont’ see how Chicago can get Tor to agree to a S&T with Bosh and then manage to snag LeBron. I don’t see TO doing that.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
The point of a S&T is to get something back
as opposed to losing a player for nothing. Deng, Taj and (2) 1st are better than losing Bosh to the Knicks or the Heat for nothing.
Bosh 2010!!!!!
I don't know if this was posted..
Sources said the Raptors prefer a sign-and-trade if Bosh is intent on leaving as well. They would likely want a big man to replace the 6-10, 230-pound Bosh in the lineup.
Taj?
Oh, come on!
If we put Pargo on a stack of books I bet he’d be pretty big…
That's a lot of books...
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
Well, Taj is close to 6'10".
What are you waiting for Colangelo?
"Boozer's dumb ass jumped. So I dunked on his ass."-Joakim Noah
by Ozzie Montana on May 21, 2010 5:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Rumor is Lebron is looking for a 3 year deal
To test the waters and see if he can win a title with whichever team he chooses.
My idea would be to sign the max with a player option after 3 years. You want to sign this max before the owners clamp down on the new bargaining contract.
Heard this on the Afternoon Saloon.
"Michael Redd's owed 18.3 million next year. He can either opt out like an idiot or opt in like a douche bag." - NittanyCub
thats the theory being floated around
because in 3 years he’d still be only 28
the nets might be in brooklyn
the knicks might have gotten better
and depending on who we get we might still be floating in the top part of the east
Plus Kobe will be on his last legs and LA will need a new star.
by Badmotostinkfinger on May 21, 2010 7:49 PM CDT up reply actions
But so will Artest and Gasol, they’ll be 34, 33 and 32. And at age 28 Lebron will be signing a 6 year contract, i doubt he’d go to a declining team.
by CavsLebronFan on May 21, 2010 9:45 PM CDT up reply actions
Agreed.
But alot can change, LA wont, it will still be LA.
by Badmotostinkfinger on May 22, 2010 12:25 AM CDT up reply actions
Take that back
California and America might be very different.
by Badmotostinkfinger on May 22, 2010 12:26 AM CDT up reply actions
Also worth noting
This little bit of news might also conflict with that report earlier that the Bulls won’t wait on LeBron.
So of the Bulls don’t wait for LeBron and Bosh does wait for LeBron, does this mean the Bulls move on to Wade or ummm . . . Joe Johnson?
I always thought that report was bullshit anyway
The whole NBA is gonna be waiting on Lebron, last I checked the Bulls were an NBA team, so… they’re waiting
If you're reading this signature, there's a good chance you don't like Vinny Del Negro.
by Juiceboxjerry on May 21, 2010 6:16 PM CDT up reply actions
I always did too
I mean, aren’t the Bulls good at the waiting game?
by Option27 on May 21, 2010 6:18 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
lol, good point
If you're reading this signature, there's a good chance you don't like Vinny Del Negro.
by Juiceboxjerry on May 21, 2010 6:20 PM CDT up reply actions
How does New York even get Bosh in a sign and trade without giving up Chandler or Gallinari?
I don’t see David Lee going there. Why would he do it? If all these other teams get left out, like the Bulls, he could easily make more money going to a place like that. Plus he’d be in a more favorable situation. Would he rather help his former team become great while sucking in Toronto and seeing the Knicks four times a year, or wait a little bit and go to another team like the Bulls or Heat for the same amount or even more? The Lee sign and trade seems like a long shot, doesn’t it?
If you're reading this signature, there's a good chance you don't like Vinny Del Negro.
More to it
Of the four teams left, the Lakers clearly hold the most interesting sign-and-trade options for Toronto. The Raptors have shown interest in both Andrew Bynum and Pau Gasol. But a source cautioned, “If the Lakers win the NBA title, I think the chances of them shaking up the roster go down dramatically.”
To acquire Bosh, the Knicks could sign-and-trade David Lee, in whom the Raptors have shown great interest.
The chances for the Bulls and Heat to participate in a Bosh sign-and-trade are a bit less clear. The Bulls could offer Luol Deng, but his huge contract would be an issue, and he’s not a big man. Taj Gibson and Joakim Noah could be in play, but a source in Chicago told me the Bulls really want to hang onto Noah.
So now I got a reason to want the Lakers to win it all.
True
I’ll definitely be rooting for them from here on out.
i guess the key to the NY/Tor sign and trade
is whether lee would agree to it. the knicks can’t sign him against his will. we’ll find out how important that 6th year is i guess.
Doesn’t seem very moral to me. Might as well take Satan’s autograph while you’re at it. - N.C.
In theory, the 6th year could be replaced
by an extension a few years in, couldn’t it?
Capologists…?
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
Yes, he is sure to earn some money that 6th year
but this way it’s guaranteed.
Sorry. What I meant to ask was, how soon into the new contract
can an extension be signed?
And I guess I should have said, CBA-ologists, instead of capologists.
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
but what the extension is can get affected by CBA i believe
which is why a guaranteed 6th year is so important this time around
at least thats how it was explained to me.
for the FAs this summer this may be their last big contract before the CBA
Luol Deng, Taj Gibson and a 1st round pick is pretty damn enticing
PG Rose
SG Hinrich (We all know he’s here to stay)
SF James
PF Bosh
C Noah
I can live with that
That roster wins the title next year.
by fundamentallysound on May 21, 2010 6:36 PM CDT up reply actions
Rudy was terrible this year. I'd rather just have Hinrich and his expiring contract.
by darksmokepuncher on May 22, 2010 6:41 AM CDT up reply actions
Vastly overrated
VASTLY
"Michael Redd's owed 18.3 million next year. He can either opt out like an idiot or opt in like a douche bag." - NittanyCub
I thought you added those 2 to the one I was talking about.
But I’m very reluctant to give them that Bobcats pick.
I think that will end up being a lottery pick personally.
Nah not 3 that's too much lol.
I would keep the one from this year to add a shooter. I would only give it up for Fernandez.
Bosh 2010!!!!!
If I'm Toronto, why in the hell do I sign and trade Bosh to Chicago if Lebron is already there?
Bulls won’t be able to sign Bosh outright at that point, and tripling up Rose, Lebron, and Bosh is pretty much conceding the next 8-10 championships to the Bulls, as long as those players stay healthy. Why put yourself out of the championship race for the next 10 years?
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Marc Gasol > than anything anyone else was offering.
But the Gasol trade may make the Lakers a mini-dynasty…but a Bosh sign and trade under this scenario makes the Bulls unbeatable.
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Agree with everything you're saying
But Bosh is no longer under contract. He’s doing the Raptors a favor at this point by saying that they’ll at least get something in return for him. If Bron signs with the Bulls (I dont think he does, I think he signs a 3 or 4 year deal with the Cavs) then he can say he’s going to Chicago. The Raptors can then say we wont make them a dynasty and he’ll say he’ll just leave and the Raptors wont even get crumbs in return.
by Badmotostinkfinger on May 21, 2010 8:32 PM CDT up reply actions
Wait. Didn't the Bulls supposedly offer Deng?
And wasn’t this when Deng was considered to be on the upswing? Surely he would have been considered better than Marc Gasol?
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
Yeah
Marc Gasol was a nobody at that point and didn’t even have any buzz. As I recall, the Bulls supposedly made a legit offer but Heisley’s beef with the Bulls prevented the deal from happening.
I remember there being 2 runs at Pau
The first came immediately after signing Wallace. The Grizz wanted Deng and Pax reportedly said no. The second came prior to Pau being traded to LA. The Bulls could have resigned and traded PJ Brown to make the salaries match but it would have put them over the tax threshold. Reinsdorf said Pau wasn’t worth it.
It will be found an unjust and unwise jealousy to deprive a man of his natural liberty upon the supposition he may abuse it.
George Washington
Thanks snley
Now that you say that it does sound absolutely correct.
Next to Kobe, Pau looks like an MVP candidate, and fwiw, the pundits seem to heap this kind of praise upon him. He clearly has become the piece that shifts the Lakers from perennial contenders with Kobe to one of the favorites in that group.
My thought is that he’d achieve the same level of play on the Bulls—Pau might have bumped them up a notch, although not from the perennial contender into favorite, because the Bulls were still at “scrappy playoff team” status.
J Reinsdorf still looks bad in restrospect, of course.
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
That's true
Signing Lebron straight-up and then trying to S + T for Bosh probably won’t work because we’ll have match salaries and they probably don’t want Deng unless they can unload Hedo. But I like the 3-way proposal of sending Deng to Minnesota, Al Jefferson to Toronto and Bosh here. Minnesota definitely agrees to that, and Toronto probably does too, because unless the Bosh-to-LA-for-Bynum rumor is an option, Toronto probably doesn’t get more than Al Jefferson back for Bosh.
Brad Miller is god.
Taking Hedo back too wouldn't be the worst thing ever.
Guys a decent three point shooter.
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No it wouldn't
Sign Lebron, then S+T Deng and Hinrich for Hedo + Bosh? I think Toronto would accept that, and we could play Lebron at the 2 with Hedo at the 3. That’d be pretty nice.
Brad Miller is god.
by Poloplaya14 on May 21, 2010 10:28 PM CDT up reply actions
I've been saying I wouldn't mind taking back Hedo
If that gets us Bosh… but that makes the S&T more difficult because they don’t have a need for Kirk. Granted Kirk’s contract is more palpable than TurkeyGlue’s, but they don’t need another Point Guard.
We could resign players like Brad Miller, and Flip Murray to one year deals and send them to Toronto. But the players would have to agree to that, which they might be hesitant to do, because on one hand, they’d probably make a bit more this way than they would on the open market, but on the other hand, they’d have to face the possibility of being dealt at the deadline as expiring contracts.
If I’m Flip Murray though, and somebody offers me 4 mil next year to be a piece in a Sign and Trade, I’d probably take it. Then try to score a longer contract in 2011 free agency.
2010... where relevant basketball in Chicago happens!
because Bosh is a free agent
and he can just leave
So is it better to lose Bosh for nothing
Than to get a pair of early 20’s players and a couple of draft-picks in the process? Plus it’s not like the Raps are going to be competing anytime soon, especially if they lose Bosh.
Bosh 2010!!!!!
Dont the Raptors wanna move Bargnani to PF?
That’s why I dont get why they’d want Lee. Or Taj for that matter.
They need a 2 and a 5. Give them our pick this year, Charlotte’s future 1st and Asik.
I hate Boston sports teams more than any other cities, but I can’t root for Kobe to get that close to 6 rings, as silly as that is. Gasol has rubbed some people (Kobe included) the wrong way this year. But seeing as how he’s arguably the Lakers Playoffs MVP, I’m sure that might make people forget some of that.
However, if they were looking to move Gasol, he wouldn’t go to Toronto. Not because of the city, but because that team is in basketball hell. Good enough to compete but not win anything and stuck with several bad, unmovable contracts. The Bulls could get involved in those talks, add a 2 like Rudy and…
Rose
Fernandez
Deng
Gasol
Noah
by Badmotostinkfinger on May 21, 2010 8:13 PM CDT reply actions
...why on earth would the Lakers trade Gasol to Chicago?
And why would they trade him in any case? Bynum for Bosh makes sense because Bynum is disposable and Bosh is a clear upgrade. Bosh for Gasol is a meaningless wash.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.
First off, Bosh is better than Gasol, so it's not a wash
At the very least he’s younger.
Let’s say Bynum for Bosh happens. Is Gasol gonna be content being the 3rd option? I mean he was already grumbling about not getting enough touches this year, right? If the Lakers get Bosh, I could see Gasol asking for a trade.
Brad Miller is god.
by Poloplaya14 on May 21, 2010 11:27 PM CDT up reply actions
bosh isnt better than gasol
gasol is abetter defender, passer, and post scorer
bosh doesnt post up much and is mostly a jump shooting pf. hes probably more athletic than gasol and younger but thats about it.
gasol is by far the superior player. one of the most underrated power forwards in the game.
Bosh scores more points on a per-minute basis with the same efficiency
What exactly makes a post scorer more valuable than a face-up scorer? I’ll take a face-up player who averages 25 ppg over a post player who averages 20 ppg. Bosh may be a face-up player, but he’s not a jump shooter. Bosh averages 9.2 attempts/game from inside 10 feet, as opposed to 9.5 attempts/game from inside 10 feet for Gasol. Gasol seems to have the edge, but Bosh averages 8.4 FTAs/game as opposed to only 5.6 FTAs/game for Gasol. Simply put, Bosh gets the the rim more than Gasol does, so calling him a jumpshooting player hardly seems accurate.
And I don’t know if Gasol’s the better defender. He might be, but not by much.
Brad Miller is god.
by Poloplaya14 on May 22, 2010 12:32 AM CDT up reply actions
youre going to use ppg/fta as the basis for your argument?
bosh plays with scrubs
gasol plays with kobe
of course bosh is going to attempt more free throws and get more shots
gasol’s avgs arent that much lower than bosh and bosh has no one else to defer to
i think thats proof that gasol is a much more efficient player
bosh barely shoots .500 for his career.
jump shooter probably isnt as accurate a description but hes still a face up shooter even if its from close. gasol is a post player with a much more refined post up game
and his face up game is just as good as bosh. his driving game may not be. but youll get fouled if you post up too.
Well hold on there
I’m not saying that Bosh attempts more shots, therefore he’s better. I’m saying that Bosh attempts more shots in the paint, therefore calling him a jump-shooter isn’t really fair. There’s a difference.
gasol is a much more efficient player
No he’s not. Bosh’s TS%, which is a much better stat than FG% is .592, and Gasol’s is .593. So they were equally efficient last year, BUT playing with more talent around you generally causes your efficiency to go up, since you don’t have to take as many desperation shots, and the defense is less focused on you. So based on that, I think it’s a pretty reasonable assumption that if you were to swap Gasol and Bosh, Bosh would have a higher TS%.
Another way of looking it is that Bosh takes way more jumpers than Gasol and still manages to be just as efficient. With more talent around him, he wouldn’t have to settle for jumpers as much (since a fair amount of those are taken as the shot clock winds down because nothing else happened during the possession), and he’d be more efficient as a result.
Brad Miller is god.
Conversely, Toronto had a much better offense than L.A. during the regular season
Toronto finished sixth in offensive efficiency and L.A. eleventh. Bosh had some pretty good offense options around him (Calderon, Bargnani) so he wasn’t exactly bereft of talent either. Plus, Toronto had much better shooters spacing the field than L.A., whose bigs had to deal with near-constant double and even triple coverage because of the lack of outside shooting and Kobe’s injuries.
This isn’t to knock your overall argument — I agree that by all accounts, Bosh had the superior statistical season — but that the difference is closer than what you’re describing.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.
Fair point
In the end, though, it all comes down to how much better you think Gasol is than Bosh is defensively, so you can throw stats out the window.
Brad Miller is god.
Gasol is a Center
"Michael Redd's owed 18.3 million next year. He can either opt out like an idiot or opt in like a douche bag." - NittanyCub
Gasol is the superior two way player
And probably the best big best suited for the triangle in the league between his passing and multifaceted scoring ability. Bosh had the better statistical season this year, but the difference between the two hardly justifies a possible trade.
In any case, Gasol’s comments about touches were more about the other perimeter players not getting him the ball, not about Kobe taking too many shots. This isn’t a repeat of the Kobe-Shaq situation — the hierarchy is pretty clear here with Kobe and Phil firmly at the top. If Gasol has to share a frontcourt with Bosh, he’ll deal with it. I fail to see how a low key guy like him is suddenly going to mope about not getting his touches when his team will be going for 70 wins and another title.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.
Bosh is younger by 3 years, which is why I'd definitely take him
But to each his own I guess.
Brad Miller is god.
by Poloplaya14 on May 22, 2010 12:39 AM CDT up reply actions
In the long-term, I'd definitely agree with you
For the immediate needs of the Lakers, Bynum for Bosh is a no-brainer as I far as I can see.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.
In terms of production I think Bosh has proven himself as the "star" better than Pau did in Memphis.
But, in terms of plain skill I don’t think there’s another big man in the league who can do what Pau does.
"Boozer's dumb ass jumped. So I dunked on his ass."-Joakim Noah
by Ozzie Montana on May 22, 2010 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions
as far as Bulls fans favorite term "low post scorer"
goes, Pau is the best, and it’s really not even close. I think I’d actually take him over Bosh if he wasn’t older than Bosh.
Thrusting out of the playoff race, one injury at a time.
by Illini15 on May 22, 2010 5:11 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
As I pointed out
Gasol has alienated some people in the Lakers org with some of his comments this year. His play can make up for that. But if you dont think Kobe noticed some of the shit Gasol has talked this year, I dont know what to tell you.
by Badmotostinkfinger on May 22, 2010 12:31 AM CDT up reply actions
That's pure nonsense
Alienated who? Kupchak? Buss? Anyone of importance? There have been zero indication of that whatsoever, and Kobe doesn’t care about whatever Gasol is saying — not only is he far too intelligent at this point of his career to let something petty like that derail the team, their on-court manner indicates the complete opposite of what you’re describing.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.
Anyone of importance?
I guess Kobe isn’t important. Gasol called him out earlier this year. Woj had detailed earlier in the year that Gasol had stepped on toes at the Lakers compound. The Bynum to Toronto rumors prior to the trade deadline were leaked by Phil Jackson. The Lakers had no desire to trade him as much as it was a mindfuck by the Zen Master.
by Badmotostinkfinger on May 22, 2010 12:45 AM CDT up reply actions
And in the same article, Woj goes to great lengths to say that Kobe doesn't care
And instead, worked to raise Gasol’s confidence. The notion that this will result in him being traded in the offseason is absolutely ludicrous. Try making arguments without horribly tenuous correlations.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.
When did I say that would lead to Gasol being traded?
“However, if they were looking to move Gasol,”
Is what I said.
by Badmotostinkfinger on May 22, 2010 2:23 AM CDT up reply actions
"Kobe doesn't care"
Yeah, I’m sure Kobe could care less that Gasol said he should share the ball more, bet that went over well in the Bryant household.
by Badmotostinkfinger on May 22, 2010 2:27 AM CDT up reply actions
Kobe doesn't care insomuch as he won't cause trouble on the team because of it
Yes, this irked him so much that he’s going to get Gasol traded. That is what you implied.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.
I can see Kobe thinking to himself
He can talk all he wants, I’m stilling getting the ball when it matters.
And thus I asked why would they trade Gasol
You responded that he might because of turning heads in the Lakers organization and I responded in turn. Don’t abandon your argument unless you’re willing to back it up or concede the point.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.
Wow, quite imaginative. But I'd pass on Rudy.
He went down in my estimation based on what he did in the playoffs. But with this transaction we should have enough cap space left over for Allen for a couple years.
np
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.
It's all hypothetical. What offseason plan for the Bulls isn't imaginative?
To pass on a shooter with a decent contract like what Rudy has because of his playoff performance seems silly. We’re not talking about Amare at a max for 6 years. The Bulls need a shooter and if giving up JJ gets you that, I dont see a problem.
by Badmotostinkfinger on May 22, 2010 12:38 AM CDT up reply actions
What if we offer them Deng/Kirk/JJ/Couple 1st rounders
for Bosh and Hedo.
They get back some decent players. But the main thing is we take that horrible Hedo contract off their hands. I think Hedo would be fine for us playing alongside Rose/Noah/Lebron/Bosh. Cuz I mean let’s face we could suit up and look awesome along them.
The only concern I have is if absorbing Hedo means we lose the cap space to sign James. But I would imagine Deng, Kirk, JJ > Bosh/Hedo contract wise.
Deng, Kirk, JJ = Bosh/Hedo contract wise
I’d be down with that, although I’d hesitate to give up JJ and the picks. Considering we’re taking Hedo off their hands, they probably bite on that.
That maintains cap space for another max player, so we can still get Lebron, or Joe Johnson as a backup.
Rose
Lebron/Joe Johnson
Hedo
Bosh
Noah
With Lebron, that’s a dynasty. With Joe Johnson, we’ll definitely win at least a couple before JJ and Hedo nosedive
Brad Miller is god.
by Poloplaya14 on May 22, 2010 12:38 AM CDT up reply actions
*BTW that's Joe Johnson as a backup plan
As awesome as it would be having Joe Johnson as the backup SG, our cap room won’t exactly stretch that far.
Brad Miller is god.
i wouldn't hesitate to give up jj
and the picks for that matter, maybe not in this particular trade, but if we do get lebron and bosh, jj will be glued to the bench, picks would be low ones and almost never play. i can see taj hangin in there as a backup, but not jj. and this hasn’t necessarily a lot to do with how good they are by the way.
Gasol is better than Bosh, he actually plays in the post. Bosh is just a face up jump shooting PF who sometimes posts up…he’s really good but Gasol to me has really stepped up his game. And he’s a legit 6’11/7 ft….and can hold his position. he’s not soft anymore…he’s the most skilled big man in the league as far as scoring, passing and defending…not a great shotblocker is probably his biggest weakness.
Also Rudy F isn’t a starting SG. He got a chance in the playoffs and bombed in my opinion. Very overrated player…not as great of a shooter as everyone thinks he is and he is below average on D. He looks good but his game doesn’t pass the eye test. I’d rather draft Anderson or Henry.
by C Smoove on May 22, 2010 12:04 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
If get Lebron and Bosh
it doesn’t really matter who the SG is.
I love how McGraw keeps the dream alive!
Again, here’s a dream scenario for the Bulls that might have a chance of happening: Luol Deng, Taj Gibson and maybe a draft pick to Minnesota, Al Jefferson to Toronto and Bosh to the Bulls, who would have enough cap room left for James or Joe Johnson.
By the way
This scenario makes a whole lot of sense if Minnesota wanted to draft Cousins. It makes too much sense. Wesley Johnson just has bust written all over him in my opinion and they really need a solid SF.
They could throw out a line up that looks like this
Rubio (If he came) Flynn if not
Brewer
Deng (The wing they really need)
Love
Cousins
Then Toronto gets that ‘back to the basket’ presence they crave to fit next to Bargnani and have a line up like
Jack or Calderon
DeRozan
Turkoglu
Bargnani
Jefferson
Bulls sign LeBron and throw out the cream dream lineup
Rose
Hinrich
James
Bosh
Noah
uungh
i don’t know, the trade sounds doable, but when you look at those starting fives they look like crap, minny and toronto i mean. and during the season both minny and toronto talked about jefferson / bargnani / bosh suffering not playing with a traditional C. Imo if Toronto trades away Bosh they’d look for a good defensive center, and hope bargnani finally turns into a dirk junior, he certainly put up decent number on the offense this year, he just can’t get it done on defense.
That would be great but
my DREAM scenario has no Kirk Hinrich
"here we are now; entertain us"
by JustAnotherFan on May 22, 2010 6:42 PM CDT up reply actions
rigt
the stud 2-guatd just drafted replacs Hinrich
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Toronto would run into the same problems, if not worse, with Bargnani/Jefferson as Minnesota had with
Love/Jefferson. Two low post players who are both weak interior defenders and neither athletic enough to keep up with stretch 4s. Toronto may be happy to get anything at that point, but I’d think they’d be better off with Deng and Taj or at least insisting they get Taj instead of Minnesota
It will be found an unjust and unwise jealousy to deprive a man of his natural liberty upon the supposition he may abuse it.
George Washington
Bargnani doesn't play in the post
He plays mostly on the perimeter.
Joakim on whether he ever tried tennis: "I played a little bit. If anybody on the Bulls wanted to play me, I would kick their ass."
Poor choice of words on my part, essentially meant to refer to them as a PF/C combo
It will be found an unjust and unwise jealousy to deprive a man of his natural liberty upon the supposition he may abuse it.
George Washington
Kahn has been pretty clear that he wants to keep him
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.
Oh really?
http://twitter.com/chadfordinsider/status/14494658328
"Boozer's dumb ass jumped. So I dunked on his ass."-Joakim Noah
by Ozzie Montana on May 22, 2010 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions
What would you expect him to say?
Of course he’s denying it, he doesn’t want to lose any leverage.
Thrusting out of the playoff race, one injury at a time.
Since there isn't a conference finals thread up...
Hoping the Bulls land only one top-tier free agent, whether its James, Wade, Bosh, or someone else, I had the following thought.
After watching the Boston-Orlando series, is anyone really worried about the Bulls not beating the Magic, or any other team in the East, in a seven game series?
Let me just qualify that statement...
With the exception of Boston, is anyone worried that the Bulls+top free agent will not be favored to come out of the East?
Any team with Dwight Howard will always be a threat
He’s just so much better than the rest of the centers in the league. The Magic were a dominant regular season team because they were loaded with depth, but they’re lacking that elite scorer that you need to be a dominant playoff team. Howard’s post game is still developing, so he could eventually be that guy, but right now he’s not. Vince Carter’s shown he’s no longer capable of being that guy, and he’s only getting older. Until they find that guy, I don’t think they can win a title.
Brad Miller is god.
by Poloplaya14 on May 22, 2010 10:02 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree with you on Howard...
But, I think the lack of a great post game is going to really be a disadvantage to their team. They depend largely on Howard getting doubled in the post so he can kick it out to shooters. However, the Celtics (for the most part) played him straight up with Perkins, Wallace, and Garnett (to a lesser extent), and were basically able to completely stop the Magic’s offense. He had that one 30 point game, but the others were 13 (game 1) and 7 (game 3).
So, I guess my point is that if the Bulls, or any other team, that has better than average front court defense has a legitimate shot and beating the one of the favored teams in the East.
Also...
I think Cleveland completely overreacted to the 2009 series with the Magic when they brought in Shaq. They probably could’ve made a better trade to bring in another more defensive minded PF/C and been much better off.
I think this has some relevance for the Bulls and free agency. I think it is a slight misconception to assume you need a top-tier scorer in the post to contend for titles. I think some solid defensive big men can get the job done, even against some of the top pf’s and c’s in the league (e.g., 2010 Magic-Celtics).
the only teams that dont have to fear howard are the teams that can play him 1 on 1
as much as i love noah. seeing as to how he had trouble holding ground against shaq theres just no way he can hold up against howard 1 on 1.
the magic are built around hoping you double howard so they can kick the ball out and pass it around for a 3.
i think we’d still need a counter to howard if we wanted to beat orlando with ease
by sin on May 23, 2010 6:29 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Was anyone really worried about beating Boston two months ago?
"Boozer's dumb ass jumped. So I dunked on his ass."-Joakim Noah
by Ozzie Montana on May 22, 2010 10:48 PM CDT up reply actions
the difference is
boston was held by back injuries
orlando isnt being held back by anything. their gameplan just goes down the hole with no need to double howard.
as a toronto fan i know we are not getting anything for bosh so i would be happy with this.
kirk hinrich, luol deng, taj gibson or your first rounder
by raptors_run_the_show on May 23, 2010 9:33 AM CDT reply actions
How about just Kirk and Luol?
We gotta have something to rebuild with… ;)
Don't be greedy
"here we are now; entertain us"
by JustAnotherFan on May 24, 2010 9:18 AM CDT up reply actions
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