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Doug Thonus weighs in on Vinny

As we approach the decision on Vinny Doug Thonus weighs in.  Thonus warns us regarding the next coach, buyer be aware

...... but I tell you now Bulls fans, be careful what you wish for.   It can be a lot worse than Vinny Del Negro.  He's no where near as bad as you think and given his experience when starting this job, I think he greatly overachieved.

I would not be heartbroken if Vinny was fired but he has improved.  As Doug Thonus states

I know people will come back and complain about his timeouts, plays out of timeouts, overall offensive strategy and a million other things, but he hasn't run himself out of timeouts that I recall since the 2009 playoffs, fans always view rotations via hindsight, and the pick and roll is a good overall strategy to teach Rose.

There likely is a coach who would be better than Vinny.  I just do not know who that is.  I also believe we could be pining for Vinny next February as the next coach messes with the progress this team has made.  The Bulls did play hard all season,  Thonus again

The number one thing any coach can do for a ball club is to make the team play hard.    That's the first thing every successful coach needs to do, and it's something Vinny has accomplished.   The Bulls played hard all season.

Thonus also believes Vinny did impact player development in a very positive way.

However, other than myself, I don't think many people had Joakim Noah ahead of Tyrus as a player, and few people (certainly I wasn't one of them though I blogged that management thought he was based on some inside sources) had Taj Gibson anywhere being a starting caliber talent.

I was screaming my head off for Gibson to be benched and Tyrus to be played more early in the season, but how stupid does that look now?   Gibson became a quality third big man and at least a guy who can be a 4th or 5th starter on a team who's primary talent is at other positions.   He did that largely because Del Negro kept playing him even when things weren't going well.

Gibson made himself, but Del Negro gave him the chance to do it.   He did what we always want a coach to do.  He played the guys who were important to the future (Johnson excluded) and gave them more opportunities.   Whether he genuinely had more faith in them or had some management direction, his season wide rotation helped the Bulls considerably when preparing for the future.

In the next few hours to days we should know Vinny's fate.  Most likely he will be fired.  Who, who, who is obviously better than Vinny?

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Keep Vinny, let him upgrade his assistants ... let him hire assistant coach from Celtics or similar

The problem is John Paxson, somewhere, somehow there is a belief that certain former players have the knowledge and skills to be executives running basketball teams.

Just because Paxson is a ND graduate, clearly his leadership is not good. Paxson should have upgraded his education and spent time studying at a graduate degree level because his management is lacking and weak.

Not Vinny, But I believe Paxson is a man out of touch with proper leadership attributes. Paxson seems to be ruled by his limited perspectives, bias prejudices and inordinate favoritism towards certain basketball players which hurts his objectivity to take this Chicago team past average. It’s not the coach..

Hearing former player Reggie Miller urge last night concerning LBJ best player ranking percentage even with a bruised elbow. Miller strongly stated LBJ was better than 97% of the rest of the NBA players, correcting the other analyst. Reggie named 3 players who might be better than a hurt LBJ, therefore 97% is the mathematical calculation he derived.. Actually he seem void of the knowledge that his analysis was based on an exact number of a total of only 100 active players being in the NBA. I don’t know that exact number of active players in the NBA, but I’m sure there are more than 100?

Likewise John Paxson has proven he is lacking in knowledge, management, diversity, vision and objectivity.. Why do some of these former players propelled into leadership positions believe they don’t need to continue to learn and conduct themselves in accordance with other leaders in different organization. Are they entitled to receive a pass and remain ignorant?

All of the management training schools across the nation have been teaching diversity for years. Chicago Bulls had a GM banning something as trivial as wearing a sweat head band which also helps control perspiration from entering eyes. And this was four years ago. Why is John Paxson recent actions a surprise to anyone?

Go Figure…

"I tried being reasonable, I didn't like it."
"Go ahead, make my day"
"We boil at different degrees"
"A good man always knows his limitations"
"You've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?"

by exult463 on May 2, 2010 9:09 AM CDT reply actions   1 recs

Who, who, who is obviously better than Vinny?

Or …
Who, who, who is obviously worst than Vinny?

..my answer is stated above

"I tried being reasonable, I didn't like it."
"Go ahead, make my day"
"We boil at different degrees"
"A good man always knows his limitations"
"You've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?"

by exult463 on May 2, 2010 9:16 AM CDT reply actions  

Hey!!!!

You’re my idol!!!! This is what I’ve been talking about!!!

by Shauns219 on May 2, 2010 10:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

Phil Jackson, Jeff Van Gundy, John Callapiri, Avery Johnson

Mike D’antoni, Hubie Brown (my pick), Tom Thibodeau, Ettore Messina

Debatably better: Byron Scott, Reggie Theus, Bill Lambier, Doug Collins, Mike Fratello, Kevin McHale, Sam Mitchell

Whose worse? Kiki, Eddie Jordan

Paxson: "Oh Vinny, your double-windsor is crooked again. Let me just rip off your neck for you."

by Another Afflicted Chicago Fan on May 2, 2010 9:18 AM CDT reply actions  

At least you are willing to put names down! Thank you!

Phil Jackson – definitely makes us better but he will never come
Jeff Van Gundy – a possibility but could slow the team down
John Callapri – a sleezeball college coach – keep him away from all of us
Avery Johnson – tunes players out screaming/preaching
Mike D’Antoni – defense/defense/defense
Hubie Brown – ready for a retirement home
Tom Thibodeau – do we really want someone with no head-coaching experience?
Ettore Messina – unknown to the NBA – are we really looking for someone the players may not understand?

From your debatable list Sam Mitchell intrigues me but I am not confident he makes us better!

Thanks for your courage being specific!

by chgobr on May 2, 2010 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think the notion of Van-Gundy is a slow-style coach is wrong.

Not only that, but it’s been addressed several times on this board. The two teams he coached were built around two plodding big men, Patrick Ewing and Yao Ming. He may not preach “run, run, run” like Vinny does, but that does not mean he would turn the Bulls into a half court team.

Metal sharpens metal.

And this guy right here understands and knows what leadership is all about: The coach, the hall of famer......... Dick Butka! George Ryan

The Bulls shrink like a dick in cold water.

by dakoose on May 2, 2010 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

OK, those are all points a GM should take into consideration but...

you are being entirely one-sided with each one of these guys – those are just knee-jerk comments.

Let’s not debate Phil Jackson – We all know there is little chance he’d come here but would definitely make us better.

Jeff Van Gundy – Would develop Rose’s defensive abilities; would improve team defense; he turned Camby (Gibson 1.0) into a stud rebounder/shot blocker; helped to develop Ming’s game; is a media gem. He’s a tough, “lovabull” guy.

Downsides? Extremely stubborn and would contradict the on-court environment Vinny was providing for these kids. Can he teach a running team like he did in NY when Ewing went down?

Callapiri – I guess I don’t know much about him. Would likely fit well with Rose as his former coach and attract positive media attention around the league.

Downsides? Questionable ethics. Can he deal with adversity? Seems a little bit of a marshmellow that would fold under the Chicago spotlight. He is too used to winning.

Avery Johnson – The benefits for Rose are obvious, bountiful, wonderful – a match made in Naismith, Mass.; he is a defensive-minded coach yet he quarterbacked NBA offenses for 1 & 1/2 decades. He has been out of coaching for years and likely has learned from at least some of his mistakes. He is a former teammate and friend of Vinny’s. Do I smell assistant coach Vinny Del Negro and good-bye Paxson?

Downsides? His personality can be toxic if players ever shut him out. He has a bit of a little-man complex. Despite past experience, he is not exactly a veteran HEAD coach quite yet.

Mike D’Antoni – Offense would blossom under his tutelage; Rose would fully bud; Noah would become an effective offensive option nightly; Great media whore; makes Bulls fun to watch=Happy, spendy Reinsdorf; like Van Gundy is a candid, fun personality

Downsides: Even with Noah and Gibson, the Bulls are giving up a lot of points; Rose would never get a good methodological approach to defense.

Hubie – He would keep the team chemistry Del Negro manufactured and set the stage for another coach in the future, He is a player’s coach and, despite his age, works well with rookies and young players. Good personality. Not too costly.
Downsides – Age, stamina, cannot give a long-term commitment

Tom Thibodeau – Has been the second banana to several successful Boston campaigns, great defensive coach, has over 5-years assistant coaching experience, has had ample opportunity to warm-up to the idea/proposition of becoming a head coach in this league. Was part of a team of coaches that developed Rondo’s all-around game (except for shooting, I suppose).
Downsides: How will he handle the hot-seat? Can hguide offense. His demeanor is largely unknown since he is primarily behind the scenes in Boston.

Ettore Messina – He wins Euroleague Championships playing team ball.
Downsides: Obviously: how long will it take to/can he adjust to the NBA?

Sam Mitchell: Tough-minded coach who has yet to steer a winner.

Paxson: "Oh Vinny, your double-windsor is crooked again. Let me just rip off your neck for you."

by Another Afflicted Chicago Fan on May 2, 2010 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Why is Mike D'Antoni on the list?

By the way, great list and comments, but everybody else seems to be coaches that are available, or likely would become available if they were offered the job. D’Antoni has basically been waiting two years for 2010 in NY.

2010... where relevant basketball in Chicago happens!

by kidronmusic on May 5, 2010 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

A sleazeball college coach equals

responsible NBA coach. Calapari won’t have to worry about NOT paying his players. I like Calapari in that he makes a mockery of the NCAA.

Bosh or Bust

by JockstrapNoah on May 5, 2010 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

Vinny was told not to play Tyrus

It was a directive from PAXDORF that Tyrus not be played. It was not Vinny’s decision. Tyrus fate was set at the beginning of the season. Gibson is ok but still not a starter in 90% of teams. If he had gone to a team where they have an NBA PF, he would have been benched and maybe out of the league by the time his contract expires. He needs to be a power presence and that lack of presence showed in the playoffs. I just hope he gets stronger, more intense and develops a jump shot. He is too small/short to succeed in the long run.

by SobersUP on May 2, 2010 10:04 AM CDT reply actions  

Tyrus fate was set at the beginning of the season... by bias prejudice VP of Operations... mmm!

I assume Tyrus wasn’t in Paxson’s inordinate favor group of players.

"I tried being reasonable, I didn't like it."
"Go ahead, make my day"
"We boil at different degrees"
"A good man always knows his limitations"
"You've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?"

by exult463 on May 2, 2010 10:33 AM CDT up reply actions  

That's not a fair assessment of a player who:

is a rookie playing in his first playoffs, playing with foot problems (and did not receive time-off for treatment like JJ and Noah did), carried the Bulls frontcourt for 20 games this season, improved despite injury, is molded as a wiry – tough – big man ala Marcus Camby, and who literally has taken it upon himself to be a legitimate player in the NBA rather than being handed minutes. He OUTPLAYED Tyrus with his consistency.

The fact that we may have the option to make Gibson a third frontcourt option behind Noah and an offseason acquisition makes me absolutely coo coo for coca plant. He has a legitimate chance of being the most improved player as well as the sixth man of the year next year. I’m not saying he will improve his abilities THAT MUCH, but his play next year will be inevitably better because he will have a healthy foot AND his athleticism back. He used his athleticism a lot in the first 40-45 games, while his ingenuity and length helped him the rest of the way.

Gibson will be a seasoned Marcus Camby/ young Joe Smith/ Al Harrington combo offense/defense player by next year. None of those guys really bang down low (Harrington has the ability, not the willingness). If Gibson was to start next year and play 30 mins alongside (conservatively) Rose, Joe Johnson, Deng, and Noah, he’d be a 12, 9, and 2blk guy. As a 6th man alongside (again, conservatively) Rose, Morrow, Deng, DLee, and Noah: 10, 8.5, and 1.5blk.

I don’t think I’m drinking the cool-aid, guy. I think this is just the way I see Gibson improving based off of watching 60 or so game this year.

Paxson: "Oh Vinny, your double-windsor is crooked again. Let me just rip off your neck for you."

by Another Afflicted Chicago Fan on May 2, 2010 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't get this either

Under this weak-ass argument, you have justification not to do anything ever.

by drew gooden's facial growth on May 2, 2010 8:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

Vinny decision to be made by Tuesday - outcome not certain

Mike McGraw of the Chicago Daily Herald is reporting the decision regarding should be made by Tuesday. He also reports

According to sources, the team is trying to keep an open mind, and firing Del Negro is not written in stone.

by chgobr on May 2, 2010 12:27 PM CDT reply actions  

anybody but Vinny

really, potentially getting a worse coach is not an excuse. I’m not even sure it’s possible, but if it is it shouldn’t paralyze the team from looking for an upgrade.

This is yet another byproduct of the Org. twiddling their thumbs, the longer they wait the more ‘cases’ like this can be made.

The Org. values (to a fault) getting players who play hard and now Vinny gets credit because his team plays hard. Plus it’s as if we couldn’t have expected Rose or Noah to improve with any coach.

BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"

by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 2, 2010 1:09 PM CDT reply actions   2 recs

Risk verses reward

Matt – Another Afflicted Chicago Fan does an excellent job summarizing the pluses and minuses of the coaches in play. There appears one coach that has a consensus to make our team better, Phil Jackson who is not coming. Another candidate could make us better. However you must do due diligence and even the initial assessments above raise important questions about each candidate. My view is that except for Phil Jackson no candidate so far has persuasive credentials that they would be better than VDN. We could take a chance but is that chance worth the risk. Vinny could continue to improve and be a better coach than the one we hire.

There is a risk involved with a new coach. We will have a new system the players have to learn. It is inherently a a step back losing the continuity we have gained over the past two years. The new system may be better than the pick and roll system Vinny uses. However, we do not know. If we get a new coach I will root like crazy that it he will be an improvement on Vinny. I am not there yet.

by chgobr on May 2, 2010 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

"There appears one coach that has a consensus to make our team better"

Based on what AACF wrote, it seems that there are 5-6 candidates definitively better than VDN and another 6-7 that would be at least as good. I agree that if VDN stays, it’s not the end of the world though. I could handle having him as a lame duck for one year. That way, either he magically gets demonstrably bettter or he fails with a talented team, allowing the Bulls to fire him without public backlash and also hire a premium coach since VDN’s salary won’t tighten Jerry’s wallet.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on May 2, 2010 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

"I could handle having him as a lame duck for one year. "

ah, rebuilding. one of these years the team will worry about actually building something, I swear. we seem to be perpetually in the ‘re’ part.

BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"

by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 2, 2010 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

We likely won't have enough depth to truly contend next year anyways

I mean if everything falls into place sure, but we’ll have a much, much better shot in 2011 after A) our new FA has had more time to gel with our team B) Rose has 1 more year of experience and C) we add some depth with our MLE.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on May 2, 2010 4:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

this past one.

moving still, or backwards, instead of forward. Rose getting better (must be the coach. not being a 21 year old #1 pick) doesn’t count.

BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"

by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 2, 2010 7:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

People are saying "Look, VDN just won 40. You can’t fire him now!"

JR got rid of Doug Collins after he won 50(ish). I’m not saying I want VDN back next year, but I could see it happening, and I wouldn’t go to pieces over it. Doc Rivers was on the hot seat, but then the Cs loaded up and he’s a coach of the year candidate. Players win championships, not coaches.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on May 2, 2010 11:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

i wouldn't be that upset if the Bulls kept VDN

but there is not point in keeping him unless they have faith he can do the job. Keeping him because you are scared you cant find better or because next year is a “throw away” year, its ridiculous.

by Basketball Smurf on May 2, 2010 11:57 PM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

I'm not saying those are reasons for keeping him

I’m saying those are the reasons why I wouldn’t be too pissed.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on May 3, 2010 12:00 AM CDT up reply actions  

right, there's no way they'll ever show enough 'faith' in VDN to have that perception exist

right now the perception is that they hate eachother and will completely ditch him the second things go wrong (again). Not a good status heading into free agency when the Owner meets directly with the Coach who fought your VP who wanted the coach fired in December.

Getting out of that scenario is worth the risk of getting a worse coach. (though as i’ve said I don’t think there’s much of a risk)

BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"

by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 3, 2010 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions  

if we sign Bosh

and the Bulls start under .500 in the west, then Vinny’s fired, and then Lindsey Hunter is coach or something. Not really a ‘waste’, but a relative waste of potential if Bosh is actually signed. But I’d still be happy with Bosh.

BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"

by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 3, 2010 9:26 AM CDT up reply actions  

Forever in the "Re" stages...

I love that. I think, when taking the dictionary definition of “Bottleneck” into consideration, you have defined Jerry Reinsdorf.

Bottleneck/Jerry = The RE-tardation of progress.

Paxson: "Oh Vinny, your double-windsor is crooked again. Let me just rip off your neck for you."

by Another Afflicted Chicago Fan on May 4, 2010 9:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

no. if we hire one and he sucks too

then we didn’t lose anything, ‘cause the current one sucks. Rose and Noah would like any coach. We are big ’character’ proponents, remember?

Considering we are getting SOMETHING this offseason to make us better, Vinny’s then fired quite early next year if they underperform in the slightest. Which they will because he’s a bad coach. A wasted season.

BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"

by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 2, 2010 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Haven't you stated over and over that Vinny's biggest virtue is that he basically gets out of the way? What

if we end up with a coach who is not only bad, but meddles and actively harms the team with his coaching or rotation choices (VDN’s rotations weren’t perfect, but they were certainly less maddening than Skiles’ affinity for the 3 guard lineup).

by fundamentallysound on May 2, 2010 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

then it's another bad hire

it happens. This was a bad hire too, so end it.

BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"

by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 2, 2010 6:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

also VDN fudged up with Tyrus

they basically rotation-proofed the team by having the worst deep bench in the league. I don’t trust him to be so ‘out of the way’ when the Bulls actually make some talent upgrades this summer.

BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"

by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 2, 2010 6:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

the rotation-proof thing is what i always counter with to people who say "well he just played his best players"

congrats on identifying that rose and noah are worlds better than pargo and gray. you can say he “improved” or whatever (after all, there’s nowhere to go but up when you’re at rock bottom), but remember he was starting thabo over hinrich and gordon last year. and sitting rose in crunch time until paxson told him (or, in light of recent events, maybe forced him) to freaking play rose. people need to stop giving vinny credit for getting guys who play hard to play hard, and for playing really good players over really bad players.

http://ExtendtheGame.blogspot.com

by Calogero on May 3, 2010 8:26 AM CDT up reply actions  

My main arguement for keeping Vinny is that

whatever FA we get will most likely want to have a say in the coach. Give Vinny a year with the new team. If all goes well Vinny signs extension. If Vinny fails, fire him and look for a new coach with input from Rose, Noah, and FA signing.

I think Vinny should stay and GarPax should go. Bring in Doug Collins as GM. I think he would do very well in that role.

by Edicus2288i on May 2, 2010 2:15 PM CDT reply actions  

I don't even know why I'm arguing

I should consider VDN-not-bashers a fringe element. You don’t really like this guy, you just feel bad because his bosses suck worse. Not a sentiment worth retaining a coach over.

BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"

by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 2, 2010 2:57 PM CDT reply actions  

So he used timeouts better late in games, but sucks at a million things

After he screwed up the Noah situation and had his boss throw a punch at him. But they should keep him because they could do worse. What a loser mentality. Clean house. Get a new Pres, GM and coach. Get a front office guy out of Utah or Houston.

by Badmotostinkfinger on May 2, 2010 3:14 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

Thonus comes off as the most closeted Organization guy.

To keep Vinny would exonerate his ineptitude, exonerate the Org’s ineptitude, and whitewash the fight by insinuating that it was never really a problem. It will allow them to save some money on a coach and to compound it all, we will still have Vinny, who as I said before sucks—accountability or no.

I saw T2 at Walgreens in Deerfield he’s tall. if you’re wondering what his grocery list included: magnums, french vanilla ice cream and a 20 oz sprite

by Super-Structure on May 2, 2010 3:40 PM CDT reply actions  

Not another prolonged search for the next coach!

I think I understand why I am reluctant to make the coaching change. I would make the change only if I had someone in mind who I was convinced would make the team better and was available. I am concerned that the Bulls will start the merry-go-round of interviewing not knowing who they are looking for after they fire Vinny. From AACF’s above list there are 7 viable candidates. That is a manageable number. Paxson should have someone in mind for the position. I am not convinced that has happened. I do not want to start another long search like we had 2 years ago.

by chgobr on May 2, 2010 3:43 PM CDT reply actions  

The real problem is that there are only so many good coaches out there. Not many people can do this job.

There’s probably 15 good to great coaches in the league and the rest are “meh” (Vinny) to “terrible” (Mike Dunleavy). The only other good candidates are either guys you’ve never heard of (like Dave Joerger) or guys whose flaws you’re familiar with (Avery Johnson, Byron Scott) or guys who don’t really want to coach right now (JVG).

I wouldn’t mind stealing someone from Pop or Phil’s team either (Mike Budenholzer or Brian Shaw), but even those types of guys don’t necessarily have the greatest track records (see: Mike Brown and Kurt Rambis).

by fundamentallysound on May 2, 2010 5:06 PM CDT reply actions  

Brian Shaw was who I wanted two years ago...

But I don’t think we’ll take another coach without experience. Maybe if Boston wins the championship, we’ll hire Thibbs, or if the Lakers win, will hire Shaw, because then we can make a big PR deal about how they just won a ring.

2010... where relevant basketball in Chicago happens!

by kidronmusic on May 5, 2010 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

Fire Vinny

as Head Coach.

But keep him in a player development role.

by jsptvo on May 2, 2010 8:07 PM CDT reply actions  

group think here is rediculouls

there are worse coaches than VDN folks. Remember when Skiles quit on the team and vice versa? That’s what could happen again.

I don’t even like VDN that much, but does anyone really think that a coach makes that much of a difference? Look at mike brown and doc for christs sake. Those guys don’t exactly have brilliant systems or perfect strategery. They have good players.

Thonus is right, hire another coach and it could be worse. It could also of course be better. But there is no perfect candidate.

I am not at all a Bulls Org apologist, in fact I’d like to see Paxson canned ASAP. But I don’t have some fairy tail running through my head where a new coach suddenly makes grants the Bulls a) a big time free agent and b) a 2nd round playoff berth.

by madvillian on May 2, 2010 10:04 PM CDT reply actions  

I agree

The effect of coaching on overall performance is smaller than people think. Let’s say we bring in coach X. That coach will be better for some players and worse for others. VDN doesn’t really do anything, so his net effect is neutral. That’s better than some coaches in the league.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on May 2, 2010 10:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

Agreed

If you can DEFINITELY upgrade the coach, you do it. The problem is that I have zero confidence in this team’s ability to select a new coach. We don’t need to re-hash the embarrassing “process” that resulted in Pax unveiling Vinny.

Some people in this thread have suggested that making another bad hire couldn’t be worse than Vinny. I disagree. It could be a lot worse. What if you have an Eddie Jordan situation where a new coach’s ideas are the exact wrong ones for the team? Or if everyone hates the coach like in the Boylan Era? You could demoralize the team and take a real step back. So if this next guy sucks, you have to replace him, we’re back to the process and Rose is on his third coach in fourth years. Is that really what you want for your All-Star guard?

by Stay Chisel on May 2, 2010 10:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

is vdn really better than skiles?

skiles did great things with that bulls team before crashing and burning. was that team better or worse than the current one? well it certainly didn’t have rose, or a player who could bail them out like he does. come on, look at what he did this year. before the season people liked the bulls better than the bucks. and look at the salmons case, that makes me crazy.

the bulls traded salmons because they thought he wouldn’t renounce his contract option for next year, seeing how hard he was sucking at the time. couple of months later and he’s for sure going to opt out because he figures to command a much larger contract. what skiles did was manage to trade away guys he didnt like, get a production boost from fish, hurt chicago’s rotation and standings, and now the bucks don’t even have the cap hold we figured to have saddled them with, and an extra pick thrown in.

come on. thonus wouldn’t want larry brown because i mean, he kinda meddles a lot while vdn doesn’t.
This sounds a lot like the i wouldn’t want lebron anyway argument.

by grillo on May 3, 2010 9:05 AM CDT up reply actions  

well, I would officially consider this a success for Vinny...

…not only does VDN look like a sympathetic figure to the media, but now to Blog A bull as well.

Congratulations Gar Paxdorf, your plan just backfired.

See everyone later while I go jump off a cliff…

by NormVanBeer on May 2, 2010 10:42 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

I'm on record many times over as saying you only fire VDN if there is a clear upgrade in place.

Frank is not a clear upgrade. JVG is not a clear upgrade (although he might be a decent option is he agrees to tailor his system around Rose), Scott or the Little General are not clear upgrades.

If they do fire VDN I’m almost hoping for a complete wildcard. Hopefully that wildcard will be Bill Laimbeer.

by madvillian on May 2, 2010 10:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm so sick of this reasoning

I’m on record many times over as saying you only fire VDN if there is a clear upgrade in place.

Stop hedging your bets. Either you think he is a good coach, in which case you keep him. Or you don’t think he is fit for the job, in which case he should be fired. The idea that the Bulls have to identify someone who is a better coach before firing VDN is crap. If they don’t think he is doing a good job, fire him. There are plenty of unemployed coaches who have done far greater things in the league than lead their teams to two first round exits and a .500 record.

by Basketball Smurf on May 2, 2010 11:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

do a thought experiment here buddy

VDN is a bad coach. Your only options this summer (again, this is a thought experiment) are Tim “Pink” Floyd and Jim “I am Skiles’ butt boy” Boylan.

Do you keep VDN given those as your options?

Of course you do. So stop arguing that who they have a realistic shot of hiring doesn’t matter. Of course it matters, in fact, it’s probably the single most important factor outside of their evaluation of VDN.

Change equals entropy. It’s lost energy. If you’re going to increase the entropy in the system you better have good reason to do so.

Christ, if Phil fucking Jackson or Popabitch walk though that door tmr I’m going to personally pack VDN’s bags, but the fact of the matter is that they are a) hiring a “wildcard” (vdn part II) or they are hiring a retread currently out of work. There are no silver bullets here.

by madvillian on May 2, 2010 11:46 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

the thought experiment is absolutely ridiculous. those aren't the only coaching options they have

they are not limited in who they can hire, it is possible to find a good coach. If they are willing to pay, if they are willing to clean house, they could get any coach they wanted.

Even if the Bulls go with a lower salaried guy, they still could find a better guy than VDN. Hell, the Bulls got Phil Jackson when he was nobody and hired Scott Skiles after he had pissed off every veteran in Phoenix and was ran out of town. So the Bulls have already hired 2 low price coaches and got 2 very good NBA guys.

If the Bulls don’t believe VDN is doing a good job, they should fire him. Its really that simple. You cannot let the fear of doing worse, prevent you from doing better.

by Basketball Smurf on May 2, 2010 11:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

it's not at all simple, which is why you and I are awake on a Monday morning at 12am arguing that point

It’s complex as shit, which sucks. And we have imperfect info as fans.

Despite YFBB friendly whipping of anyone who dares to consider VDN as a “mediocre” NBA coach, an argument can be made that VDN is completely mediocre and that if an obviously better coach isn’t available maybe everyone should just chill for a minute and consider the entropy (sorry, it describes the situation well) of a coaching change that could very well lead nowhere, for the reasons I’ve outlined.

Again, I don’t want to seem like a VDN or Skiles or (for god’s sake) a JR apologist, but the fact is these are incredibly complex decisions and us fans can only try and make due with the info we have. The info I have as a fan is that VDN is mediocre and a bunch of mediocre candidates are available to coach this teaM

Obviously if Chris Bosh is writing love letters to Byron Scott tonight then I would try and send both Chris and Byron a huge “welcome to chicago” cheese and wine spread while popping girls’ bikini tops and sending them the pics.

hehe, getting a bit drunk here.

by madvillian on May 3, 2010 12:09 AM CDT up reply actions  

Complex Equals

Fire the Vinny. Hire a coach with a track record and qualifying experience.

Bosh or Bust

by JockstrapNoah on May 3, 2010 9:58 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think the idea is that people don't think he's good or bad. He's pretty neutral. He's like Seinfeld in the Even Steven episode.

41-41, 41-41 back to back years with a lot of roster turnover.

I think he stinks, but his record is perfectly middling. So it’s tough to look just at that and tell whether he’s good or bad. I think it’s the latter, but that’s just based on watching his awful X’s and O’s and guessing that the “he gets guys to try hard” is just a myth. Noah and Rose are grinders and they are gonna lead this team wherever its going, VDN or not.

by fundamentallysound on May 3, 2010 1:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

I agree...

He is basically the poster boy for average….not good, not bad, just avg….I pretty much have the same feelings about him leaving. If he goes he goes but if he stays he needs to step his game up. You’re 100% on Rose and Noah as well. 2 NCAA championships for Noah and Rose was in the championship game. You could get Bozo the clown to coach those two and they would bust their asses.

"I get my energy, from my inner G, I'm from outer space but I got inner peace..."-Chicago's own Lupe Fiasco

by realisticoptimist on May 3, 2010 1:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

Cmon you're smarter than that

They have inflated records compared to the top teams in the West since they play in the East. And even if you say that Cleveland and Orlando are the top 2 teams in the league, you could make a damn good argument that the next best 8 teams in the league are in the West.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on May 3, 2010 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

True

The Heat, Bulls, Bobcats, and Bucks wouldn’t have made the playoffs with that record in the west. Not to mention the 9th place team had a better record then the Bulls (although only one game)

"I get my energy, from my inner G, I'm from outer space but I got inner peace..."-Chicago's own Lupe Fiasco

by realisticoptimist on May 3, 2010 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

they are clear upgrades

they sound like they know what they’re doing. Vinny doesn’t. You don’t worry about Vinny tailoring a system because he has no system to tailor.

BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 3, 2010 9:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

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