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Around SBN: 2012 Africa Cup Of Nations Final

Just 20 more games 'til Phil?

A mere week ago, -- and keep in mind this was after dropping a rather winnable game in Indiana -- the Bulls' playoff odds looked like this:

Hollinger B-R.com Coolstandings
AVG
Bucks 89.0% 83.7% 82.5% 85.1%
Raptors 77.5% 89.7% 83.4% 83.5%
Heat 82.7% 80.4% 76.0% 79.7%
Bobcats 75.0% 77.0% 79.1% 77.0%
Bulls 74.9% 69.2% 78.7% 74.3%

 

Unfortunately, after three straight home losses, now they're something like this:

Hollinger B-R.com Coolstandings AVG
Bucks 97.6% 96.3% 96.0% 96.6%
Heat 93.8% 95.4% 92.4% 93.9%
Raptors 80.7% 90.4% 85.6% 85.6%
Bobcats 79.2% 81.6% 79.5% 80.1%
Bulls 48.6% 36.3% 46.5% 43.8%

 

And as much as I dislike Vinny Del Negro, this team in its current form just does not have the talent to win enough to get to the postseason. The trades of John Salmons and Tyrus Thomas gutted the Bulls' depth, to the point that they no longer have enough viable bodies to weather the storm of an injury to someone like Joakim Noah.

Not only that, but the deals also have propelled the Bucks and Bobcats solidly into the playoff picture. And if you don't think it's the ex-Bulls that are their teams' driving forces, think again Mark Schanowski.

Here is the Bobcats' roster, in order of productivity as calculated by 82games.com:

That's Tyrus Thomas on top there, FYI. Meanwhile, these are the Bucks' rankings:

Why that is John Salmons in the first position, in case there was any confusion. So how have the Bulls' acquisitions fared?

In giving two of the their closest competitors players who immediately became the most productive on their respective teams, Chicago received its 5th and 10th best players in return. Actually, since they traded away Nos. 2 and 4, I suppose they're actually #3 and #8, but what's a few middle-to-low-end slots between friends?

Alright, let's say you don't buy into 82games' valuations. Fair enough. Well how about Player Efficiency Rating? Since the trade, Tyrus' PER is 21.36 in 27.1 minutes per game; Salmons' is 19.96 in 36 mpg*. Meanwhile, Hakim Warrick has given the Bulls a 14.83 in 25.1 mpg, while Flip Murray is at 10.16 in 24.5 mpg. Factoring in the minutes played, the Bulls got back roughly half the value of what they gave up.

* To make matters worse, Salmons is playing so well that there's at least a decent chance he'll exercise his player option and leave on the table the $5+ million that the Bulls were so desperate to keep off their cap. The main reason Chicago had to include the extras to the Bucks (the ability to swap first-round picks, the pair of second rounders) was to indemnify them for the loss of next year's cap space. If Salmons does, in fact, opt out, it will mean not only did Chicago get inferior talent back, but they gave up all of those additional assets as compensation for something that never occurred.

And so with just 20 games remaining and the Bulls now unlikely to make the postseason, a thought occurred to me: Could that be exactly what the front office wanted?**

** At the very least this theory makes me feel far better than confronting the reality of the Bulls front office inadvertently improving their rivals so significantly that it cost them their playoff spot. To me, that kind of gross incompetence is much more disturbing than the questionable ethicality of intentionally throwing a season away.

Sure, there is significant downside to missing the playoffs: Jerry Reinsdorf would lose -- or, more accurately, not gain -- a significant amount of cash, the young core would miss out on the experience, and the perception of the team among prospective free agents might take a hit.

But let's focus on the first part for now, because I'm sure that's the one Reinsdorf would be most concerned with. I just can't envision a scenario where the Bulls would've hosted more than three home playoff games. I believe I once read somewhere that an NBA team adds about a million dollars to its bottom line per postseason home game, so that's $3 million. Maybe it's a bit more in a large market like Chicago, so lets up it to $5 million.

Though less than a quarter of the combined annual salary of Luol Deng and Kirk Hinrich, that's still a lot of money. However, making the playoffs also would leave the Bulls with little pretense to ax Vinny Del Negro. After two playoff appearances in two years, it would have been very difficult for the Bulls to justify firing their novice head coach, and I think it's at least possible that the Bulls' master plan involves canning Del Negro and bringing in a desirable, big-name player's coach to help entice their priority-one target(s).

It's clear that this whole year has been about jockeying for free agents. And so while that $5 million would surely have bought Reinsdorf some snazzy new glasses, it would also have zero impact on any potential free-agent's willingness to sign, which in the long run would be worth far more money to the organization. So therefore it becomes solely a matter of creating the most appealing destination for someone like Dwyane Wade or LeBron James. Would they prefer to go somewhere with:

Back-to-back playoff appearances + Vinny Del Negro

--OR--

A near-playoff miss + a real head coach?

I suppose it depends largely on who that coach would be, so let's do some speculatin'. One obvious candidate would be Mike Krzyzewski, who has been linked to other NBA jobs in the past, but has always turned them down. But maybe the Bulls figure he wouldn't be able to resist the lure of his hometown and the opportunity to coach Derrick Rose and one of the stars (LeBron, Wade, Chris Bosh) he had on the 2008 Olympic team.

While Krzyzewski would be great as a marketing tool, there is another, more appealing name lingering out there on the horizon: Philip Douglas Jackson.

Alright, it's far-fetched, but what are you, the near-fetched police? Jackson is a free agent after this season, and there's been all sorts of rumbling in L.A. of discord in the organization affecting his return. And somewhat significantly from the Bulls' perspective, Jackson realizes that the environment has changed since he inked his $10+ million a year contract with L.A. Speaking about the Lakers, he recently said:

"People are cutting costs all around the league and coaches are obviously going to take a cut too, so they may not even want to hire me. They may want to save some money."

Also, as far as I know, the rift between Jackson and the Bulls was almost entirely between him and Jerry Krause, who's obviously no longer here. While he surely resented Reinsdorf for supporting Krause, Jackson's parting was no more acrimonious than the one he had with the Lakers following the 2004 Finals, and he returned to LA after just one year away. So there's been more than enough water under that bridge.

Admittedly, I have no idea what kind of relationship Jackson has with John Paxson, but given each's contributions to the Bulls' championship legacy, I can't believe that it wouldn't at least be one of mutual respect. And if Jackson can mend fences with Jerry Buss and Kobe Bryant and return to the Lakers, I see no reason why he couldn't do the same with Jerry Reinsdorf and the Bulls.

Can you imagine the impact that would have? If anything could lure LeBron James to Chicago, this would be it: Playing for a legend like Jackson, in the house that Michael built, trying to make Bulls fans forget MJ with several titles of his own. And I don't buy that James (or Dwyane Wade, or anyone else) wouldn't want to come here because of Jordan's enormous shadow. Bill Russell didn't prevent Larry Bird from becoming a legend, and the specter of Jerry West didn't hurt Magic Johnson, either.

Pipe dream or not, bringing Jackson back at almost any cost would be the best move the Bulls could make to position themselves for free agency, and I dare say would trump anything that a first-round playoff exit would accomplish.

God that would be awesome.

*****

Some lingering, more reality-based thoughts from Saturday's 122-116 loss to Dallas:

1. As mentioned above, the Bulls don't really have enough talent to win. Just as damning, however, is that the team's coaching staff simply isn't good enough to win with the middling talent at its disposal.

2. There was a lot of talk about defense after the 122-116 loss. Of course, it was all in generalities, as with Tyrus gone there was no one specific to scapegoat for the shortcomings:

"We scored 116 points, which is plenty," Del Negro said.  "Their penetration really hurt us.  We missed some of our rotations and gave them some easy baskets in the lane. ... Our weak side defense is not very good."

"We just had trouble stopping them," said Hinrich. "We did not play very good team defense and we lost because of it."

'''We just couldn't get a stop," Deng said. "If you want to win, that fourth quarter, you have to lock down. In the fourth, it's not about offense anymore. It's about getting stops.''

In other news, duh. Why, exactly, should this be at all surprising to anyone? As stated in my last post, in Salmons and Thomas the Bulls traded away their two best defenders, statistically speaking. Not that Vinny would have been smart enough to give either any significant minutes against the Mavs, but still.

The horribly ironic thing is, for all of the Bulls' organizational talk about the importance of defense, they practically gave away their two best players on that end, seemingly because they hadn't a clue just how valuable they were, in order to acquire two (allegedly) better offensive players. Criminy.

3. As you know from this post from last week, I love Jason Kidd. Kidd's line against the Bulls -- 6 points, 11 rebounds, 15 assists -- marked the fourth time this season that he has failed to get a triple-double because he came up short in points. He's now had a single-digit points, assists-rebounds double-double 24 times in his NBA career; since he came into the league in 1994, everyone else has combined for 25 such games.

And the primary reason Kidd didn't get career triple-double #105 on Saturday was obvious: He just doesn't care about individual stats. While we've seen other players intentionally miss shots on their own basket just to secure a 10th rebound to try and seal a triple-double, Kidd literally did nothing to selfishly pursue his. Sure, he shot just 33.3% for the game, but he only took six shots. After hitting a 3 to get to six points with 6:41 remaining in the third quarter, Kidd took only one more shot, a 3 at the 3rd-quarter buzzer. Just four points short of a triple-double, Kidd did not attempt a single field goal in the 4th quarter.

And that -- as much as the 10,781 assists (2nd-most all-time) -- is part of what makes Jason Kidd one of the most unselfish players in NBA history. And one of my all-time favorites.

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Comment 64 comments  |  11 recs  | 

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We may eventually stop rec'ing your writeups...

but this isn’t the one to stop the recs. So please keep them coming.

Also, I really miss Tyrus Thomas. That 21.5 PER he’s carrying with the ’Cats makes me feel both steamed and vindicated. Every time he posts a solid game, my internal reaction is: “Fuck ya!” which is quickly followed by a disappointed “Fuck……”

by Reacharounder on Mar 9, 2010 7:44 AM CST reply actions  

Great writeup, really dig your articles man!

Tyrus is performing splendidly on my fantasy team, dropped when on the Bulls, picked him up again as soon as he was traded. He and Collison = pickups of the year for me.

by Jack M on Mar 9, 2010 8:22 AM CST reply actions  

Yeah, I'm glad I kept Tyrus

It sucks I had Collison in CP3’s first injury and he was awesome, but ya know Paul came back and I needed extra points for my 4th (last) guard….so I dropped him and when I went back when CP3 got injured, I missed him by 1 spot on the waver wire…..I am in second in my league because of that really….the guy beating me picked both Evans and Jennings to start the year and had the #1 overall pick (Lebron). He was able to get a trade of Jennings and crap shortly after the 55 pt game (maybe 1-2 weeks later) for Brook Lopez and Amare Stoudemire….which I vehemently objected, but I guess folks in my league were morons….

So now he’s leading the league…sucks. And Tony F-ing Parker’s killing me.

Ok Stacey I'm am so sick of hearing the "Hard Hat and Lunch Pail" nickname for Taj. Enough already, wasn't funny the first time, but you now say it 15-20 times per broadcast. It's enough to make me want to hate Taj, when I don't hate Taj.

by majoyenrac on Mar 9, 2010 9:01 AM CST up reply actions  

That was

an outstanding trade buy the guy in your league, Lopez & Amare, DAMN!!!!!

by QUINTEN DALEY on Mar 9, 2010 4:38 PM CST up reply actions  

Drop Tony Parker...

Add George Hill (if he is available)

Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.

by Dionysus2.0 on Mar 9, 2010 4:41 PM CST up reply actions  

Man, I was winning my league

but I have to play players every day in my fantasy league. I haven’t played in two months, lol. Wonder how my team’s doing …

Go Rockets/Nets[CDR]/Bucks[Jennings]!

by Prevenge on Mar 9, 2010 11:51 AM CST up reply actions  

We're .500!

I guess it fits. 9-1, miss 8 weeks. I can still get into the playoffs and win. :P

Go Rockets/Nets[CDR]/Bucks[Jennings]!

by Prevenge on Mar 9, 2010 11:55 AM CST up reply actions  

Ha ha

me too

Joakim on whether he ever tried tennis: "I played a little bit. If anybody on the Bulls wanted to play me, I would kick their ass."

by bigballa10 on Mar 9, 2010 12:37 PM CST up reply actions  

i don't think it is their plan to drop out of the playoffs

i mean if coack k or phil were available, i think they would be justified in axing del negro even if we did make the playoffs.

other than that, thanks for an awesome fanpost as always, and i just wanna reiterate what reacharounder said. another rec for you.

Practice beats talent when talent doesn't practice.

by iamsasquatch on Mar 9, 2010 9:20 AM CST reply actions  

Jees... what a great read.

You even made a compelling case for what most people would put squarely in the “pipe dream” category in Phil as HC. But, even if it’s not Phil or Coach K, it is very clear that there is a very high-level strategy behind Chicago’s plan for the 2010 Free agency market, and tailoring the coaching staff to recruit the player makes loads of sense. Here’s what you have to offer a free agent.

1. Max contract
2. Young, mostly-selfless teammates ranging from good (Taj and, yes, Kurt) to very good (Deng) to all star (Rose and Noah)
3. Killer market – Chicago’s in the top 3-5 for sheer endorsment/visibility potential
4. Your choice of coach
5. Legacy team (They’re not quite the Lakers and Celtics, but MJ and Phil got them up there)
6. Fan Base – If any of the big three just keep doing what they’re doing, they will be adored as much or more as anyone except (maybe) Lebron in Cleveland.

Certainly, if they don’t make the playoffs, they have a shot at worst of havng to trade draft pick #11 for draft pick #16 or getting #21 (ahead of where they drafted Taj), and at best being lucky SOB’s and scoring a top ten. If even one of Johnson, Warrick, Law, Murrey, or Alexander turns into a solid role player, they can bring back Miller and sign a 3 pt shooter and all of a sudden they’re nine deep and under the cap.

I see the light now.

by DisCUBbobulated on Mar 9, 2010 10:24 AM CST reply actions  

Interesting but your fundamental premise is flawed:

I doubt that anything is hinged on the the “justifiable” firing of Del Negro. Whether he should be or not, who would ownership/management have to justify it to? The fans? Their own consciences? Vinny himself? I don’t think the townspeople would revolt with torches and pitchforks upon learning Vinny was axed. Did I miss something or do you really mean to say that the Org. said to themselves “We can’t lure a max FA with VDN, and we’ll look bad if we fire him, so let’s undermine our playoff chances with these trades…” I don’t get it.

hard pail lunch hat

by headphones on Mar 9, 2010 11:16 AM CST reply actions   1 recs

I have to agree with this

The Bulls don’t need any excuses to replace Vinny Del Negro after this season. In fact, that’s exactly how Phil got the job before since he replaced Doug Collins after a pretty good playoff run. You’re right, it’s not as if anybody would really care if he got canned anyway, and I certainly don’t think they would intentionally miss the playoffs to justify it.

Joakim on whether he ever tried tennis: "I played a little bit. If anybody on the Bulls wanted to play me, I would kick their ass."

by bigballa10 on Mar 9, 2010 12:44 PM CST up reply actions  

The Pistons fired

Rick Carlisle after a 55 win season

by QUINTEN DALEY on Mar 9, 2010 4:40 PM CST up reply actions  

I was going to mention that too

but since the Bulls already had an example I just used that one.

Joakim on whether he ever tried tennis: "I played a little bit. If anybody on the Bulls wanted to play me, I would kick their ass."

by bigballa10 on Mar 9, 2010 7:35 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't see any way the Bulls pay a premium for coaching

and Phil is on his own tier.

USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 9, 2010 11:25 AM CST reply actions  

Marketing

Phil would cost a premium, but he’s 64 and has numerous health problems, so at most you’re looking at 1-2 years. More importantly, he’d bring two big advantages to the table. First, he’d be a real asset in recruiting FAs. If he puts them over the top in getting a marketable superstar, that’s money well spent. Second, it’d close one of the lingering wounds and eliminate some of the bad will of the dynasty breakup. By publicly making amends for that, I think they’d generate a fair amount of goodwill, even 12 years later. In the long run, having a great brand is very profitable, and Jerry Reinsdorf should know this.

He’s been coasting off it despite damn near killing it the first time around.

by Sports2 on Mar 11, 2010 7:40 AM CST up reply actions  

Thomas isn't doing that well anymore.

He’s had a couple of poor shooting games (with no free throws) yet continues to foul like crazy… lately without the blocking of shots (as much).

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Mar 9, 2010 11:53 AM CST reply actions  

"that well" as in "not as well as you type.

buyt still better than what anyone on the Bulls are doing, in terms of PER.

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Mar 9, 2010 11:53 AM CST up reply actions  

Also, his 1-year APM has plummeted since joining the 'Cats.

I think it goes back calendar years, though, not season years. If that’s the case, the recent rise on the Bulls was from his improved play before last year’s trade deadline. His recent drop coming from last year’s post-deadline funk.

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Mar 9, 2010 11:56 AM CST up reply actions  

TT has had a couple of rough games offensively hitting only 4 of 15 (26.7%).

He picked up 5 quick fouls, playing only 18 minutes against Golden State, the first game he didn’t play the entire 4th quarter because of foul trouble. Against Miami, although offensively he was only 2 of 7 and scored 6 points, he played a key role in the come from behind 83-78 victory over the Heat. He also had only 1 turnover.

Larry Brown again had him on the floor for the entire 4th quarter, primarily as a defensive stopper which apparently was successful since the Bobcats outscored Miami 21-12. Tyrus seems to be learning since he comitted only 1 foul in 27 minutes. I have a feeling Larry told him he didn’t have to try to block every shot to be effective. Rather continue with his help defense and disrupt the offensive flow. I think he listened.

With the Bobcats trailing 72-71 he forced Wade into comitting an offensive foul by taking the charge.

At the 3:14 mark, and the Heat still up 78-76 he stole a pass.

Moments later he hit a 17 foot jumper to tie the score at 80 apiece. Vinny would have gone into cardiac arrest if he had fired one up at that point in the game which is why Tyrus was never allowed to be on the court at that point in the game.

Then with less than a minute to go, he grabbed a key rebound with Charlotte 3 points ahead to seal the victory. No wonder his new coach feels comfortable having him play every minute at crunch time. It seems Tyrus doesn’t wilt under pressure when the game is on the line.

Considering the new look Bulls have given up 254 points in their last 2 games, for a team that supposedly prides itself on defense, not only Noah’s absence, but the departure of Fish and TT has really hurt them. If they don’t land a superstar in July, the long knives should be out.

Again I want to thank MrSportsKnowitAll for hitting another one out of the park. Keep up the great work as Bab’s best designated hitter. So far you’re batting 1.000. I don’t expect you can keep up that pace, but a few singles and doubles will also be appreciated.

If you can't answer a man's arguments, all is not lost. You can still call him vile names.
Elbert Hubbard

by Tyrusmancrush on Mar 10, 2010 4:53 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

phil jackson?

did I miss something recently? I don’t see ANY scenario where he would come back to Chicago. Doesn’t make basketball sense (for him), money sense (for either), or common sense.

Where is this magical $5 million coming from? “I think I read somewhere…” Uhhh, ok.

Also…sure Fish and TT are playing better with their current teams. But when they were in Chicago they sucked. Maybe not all the time, and maybe not TT as much as Fish. But c’mon son..it’s still the honeymoon period. I’m not having seller’s remorse at all.

by NormVanBeer on Mar 9, 2010 1:31 PM CST reply actions   1 recs

"Alright, it's far-fetched, but what are you, the near-fetched police?"

Love that line, and would have been really popular before the trade deadline. Probably will have a resurgence once the season ends.

Great write-up, not sure I follow the logic (as others have stated) that losing out on the playoffs this year is necessary to fire VDN and upgrade (in order to get a big FA), but I like the yarn-spinning.
I agree, however, that Phil Jackson, would be a big attraction in terms of luring a Wade or Bosh. Not sure Lebron would sign up to that, considering he would play in MJs shadow needing Kobe’s coach to finally win the big one…

Keep up the posts, godammit!

All your base are belong to Vinny.

by BCs71 on Mar 9, 2010 1:43 PM CST reply actions  

I think coach K would be sickkkkkk...

and would def help lure a big timer. But doubt that would ever happen, sigh…

by Pax_4_Prez on Mar 9, 2010 2:00 PM CST reply actions  

this just hurts

couldnt keep reading after seeing TT and Salmons at the top spot

by Belize on Mar 9, 2010 5:16 PM CST reply actions  

I think that VDN

Should play JJ more minutes in this one…he has earned it with some good recent performances, espesh on Defensive end …I think that he can be that energy guy blocking shots and making easy baskets off the bench.

by rick_ross on Mar 9, 2010 6:01 PM CST reply actions  

So do I

it’s certainly worth taking a chance.

Joakim on whether he ever tried tennis: "I played a little bit. If anybody on the Bulls wanted to play me, I would kick their ass."

by bigballa10 on Mar 9, 2010 7:36 PM CST up reply actions  

The draft pick thing...

That’s actually one reason to lose that makes more sense than the coaching dump, but not as explainable as the salary-dumping moves that those trades accomplished.

To explain, the Bucks could nibble into the playoffs as the #14-#16 best record (i.e. #15 – #17 pick in 2010), then, if the bulls don’t make it, they could draw pick #11 to #14 and have to trade. But the worst case scenario is having to trade #11 for #17, where as if they make the playoffs they’re at #15 – #17 anyway (assuming they lose round 1). But there is actually a not-terrible chance that they sneak into the top 10 (after last year, maybe they’re feeling lucky). Is having a chance at a #5 to #10 better than at best a #15? It’s at least an intriguing question.

by DisCUBbobulated on Mar 9, 2010 8:57 PM CST reply actions  

Actually, never mind..

I just looked at this actual system – If the bulls don’t get in the playoffs, they’ll probably finish behind Memph, NO, and Houston at the most, givng them a 91% chance of getting the 11th pick in the draft, a 3% chance of #1-3, and a 6% chance of #12. So, they’ll trade with Mil, who make the playoffs, and get theirs at #15-#17.

My guess – the bulls miss the playoffs, and end up with Mil’s #17

by DisCUBbobulated on Mar 10, 2010 12:00 PM CST up reply actions  

If lightening does strike twice and the Bulls got a 1-3 pick, who would be the best fit for the Bulls next season?

So a Bulls fadeout may be the best thing that could happen to them on 2 counts.
First, they have a slight chance to grab another young stud and even better than that, absolutely guarantee that management won’t be able to justify bringing Vinny back if they fall out of contention. So how do we root for them under these circumstances? Is this a win-win situation. If they sneak into the playoffs, we get to witness the further blossoming of our most precious flower which would help attract the best bees in the NBA hive and if they fail, we not only get a shot at winning the lottery but we lose the least qualified head coach of the last decade, except for Jim Boyl&*.

If you can't answer a man's arguments, all is not lost. You can still call him vile names.
Elbert Hubbard

by Tyrusmancrush on Mar 10, 2010 5:03 PM CST up reply actions  

John Wall if he's available.

Evan Turner if he’s next. Derrick Favors next. DeMarcus Cousins. Whatever.

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Mar 10, 2010 6:51 PM CST up reply actions  

I would take Turner over Wall. We already have a point guard who isn't half bad.

Turner is 6’ 7" and is an excellent shot creator and defender who can also rebound. Wall may be more talented but either he or Rose would have to sublimate thier games to accamodate the other. But I could also see worse problems than have D Rose types on the same team.

If you can't answer a man's arguments, all is not lost. You can still call him vile names.
Elbert Hubbard

by Tyrusmancrush on Mar 10, 2010 9:18 PM CST up reply actions  

should have read 2 D Rose types

If you can't answer a man's arguments, all is not lost. You can still call him vile names.
Elbert Hubbard

by Tyrusmancrush on Mar 10, 2010 9:18 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah but I think Wall is just a lot better

Then I’d look to trade Wall. Actually, I’d look to trade the pick in the first place to ensure max FA cap room. I’d try to trade down to like no. 4 or 5 and target Wesley Johnson (asking for at least 2 future 1st round picks in return).

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Mar 11, 2010 12:08 AM CST up reply actions  

I don't trade them

Unless the guy stinks, he’s not going to lose value. Unless you can fill two holes by trading him, I might not do it. I’d try them both in the back-court. Who are they competing for touches with in the front-court. Get a jump-shooting big man, make Deng expand his game out to three for real, and go nuts. Let them run the DDM offense until they’re blue. Wall is a good defender, so it’s not like you’re losing that from Turner. The only thing you’re really losing is that Wall isn’t as tall and commands the ball more. But one of Turner’s strengths is that he can handle the ball well, not shoot.

I just don’t see a huge difference in their games as far as style. If I can get Turner PLUS a really stud PF, I’d do that. But you have to get one of the two at this point. If you have the chance.

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Mar 11, 2010 7:57 AM CST up reply actions  

But there is a big difference in their games

Wall is essentially a Rose clone. He’s incredibly fast and athletic with a good handle, and consequently gets to the rim as well as just about any guard. He also has the same weaknesses that Rose did coming out, namely the lack of a consistent jumper and below-average defense.

Turner’s a bit different. He is a player that’s gonna need the ball a lot, and rightfully so, as he’s more than capable of playing PG, even though semantically, he’s considered a SG or SF. Ironically, he might actually be more of a traditional PG than Rose or Wall, since he’s got better court vision. He’s also much bigger and stronger, which makes him a much more effective defender. He’s also fundamentally a much better defender than Rose or Wall. Now as far as his weaknesses go, he also struggles shooting the ball, although he’s better than Wall or Rose (when he was coming out of college). Also, he’s simply not nearly as explosive as Rose or Wall, and his handle’s not as good. However, this applies to 99% of the NBA, so it’s hardly a weakness.

But anyways, the point is that I think Turner would be a much better fit next to Rose. On the offensive end, neither pairing (Rose-Wall or Rose-Turner) is ideal, since in either case you’re dealing with two guys who need the ball a lot and aren’t good 3-pt shooters. That said, the players are so talented that I think it would work anyway, but neither player would be as effective as they would on another team. But the main reason I think Rose-Turner works a lot better than Rose-Wall is that Turner projects to be a much better defender than Wall. A Rose-Wall pairing would be porous defensively, while Turner’s a bigger guard that can make up for Rose’s shortcomings. That’s why I think we’d get more value out of trading Wall if we had the fortune to land him. A few off-the-top-of-my-head ideas: Wall + Hinrich to Houston for Kevin Martin + Aaron Brooks, Wall + Deng to Indiana for Granger + Hibbert, Wall + Deng to Denver for Melo.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Mar 11, 2010 1:54 PM CST up reply actions  

You've got to love an argument

about something that is never, ever, ever going to happen.

Will everyone stop hating on Deng, please?

by Chalkwhite on Mar 17, 2010 2:14 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

In '08, we had a 1.7% chance of getting the no.1 pick, and therefore Rose.

If we finish with the 11th-worst record in the league, which would be the case if the season ended now, we will have exactly a 1.7% chance of getting the no.1 or the no.2 pick. So while it’s unlikely, it’s not impossible.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Mar 17, 2010 6:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

So many problems so little time.........

First I will say that I am glad we (Lifelong Bulls Fan) got rid of Tyrus. His bball IQ is insulting and he thinks he can do more than he can. Salmons did ok just inconsistant (but name someone on this team who isnt. D Rose excluded). I have not liked the VDN hire from day one and the winning streak we were on gave me joy and pain. I am afraid that will keep VDN here instead of getting rid of him ASAP!!! I just dont care for his coaching skill, ability or whatever else you can call it. With the roster this season is shot!! (Please see A. Law, J. Alexander, J. Johnson, C. Richard, J. Pargo.) I could go on for a while but I won’t for now. Hinrich drives me crazy whenever he touches the ball unless its a catch and shoot, but that can be shaky also. I guess I can deal w/Flip and Warrick. They do ok off the bench, but we need ALOT OF HELP!!! We will see.

by bigdog_54 on Mar 10, 2010 5:23 PM CST reply actions  

There are only 3 places I can see Phil Jackson next year

1) Lakers
2) His home
3) Coaching LeBron – yeah because a guy who coached MJ and KB would want no other. I’d still like him to coach him a MJ/Kobe-less team before passing judgement on how great he is.

by JustAnotherFan on Mar 12, 2010 8:59 AM CST reply actions  

So I guess we'll be hearing about Tyrus

Forever.

I mean really. Can we stop talking about Tyrus? He’s gone. He didn’t exactly light the world on fire with us, and you know, we never would have known if his endless “potential” would have panned out for us. It’s something else when you can’t even realize that perhaps this trade was his kick in the ass! He needed something to wake him up, it just so happened that finding that the organization who drafted him didn’t want him was it, apparently.

Maybe he likes to be closer to a southern state? Who knows what got him into gear, but it wasn’t going to pan out for us and I’m still kinda giddy that we don’t have to sink a bunch of money into him to find out and sit through the sulking and pouting for another few years. He’s gone, let’s leave him alone, the Bobcats have a blog here, that would be a great place to talk up everything Tyrus Thomas.

Same goes for Salmons and the Bucks, except with the note that he did the same thing with us last year with regards to playing out of his mind basketball for a while. I can’t believe that people are so shortsighted.

"..what you mean? I'm a legend like Kareem!"

by CommittedToExcellence on Mar 13, 2010 1:40 AM CST reply actions  

When management lays a big rotten egg they should be held accountable.

The Bucks have lost only one game since Fish solved their need for another scorer. The Bobcats have won 5 straight now that they have a stronger defensive presence which will be even more important with their only all star going down.

Why have both ex-Bulls been able to make immediate positive impacts for their new squads? This can be explained in 2 simple words. They are now playing for a REAL COACH.

Our brain-dead leader has been forced by sheer attrition to allow JJ to get some real minutes and he has demonstrated he has potential that was being stifled by a lack of opportunity. When Luol gets healthy will he once again be relegated to the end of the bench? Knowing the mind set of Vinny Del Incompetento, this is a real possibility. Many fans on this site have been frustrated by his inability to design schemes to maximize his players individual skills and now with the injuries his incompetence is on display for all to see.

The Bulls were penny wise and pound foolish for selecting this novice to coach D Rose who also could have developed faster under almost any NBA veteran like Rick Carlisle whom the idiots in the front office turned down in favor of Vinny, much to the benefit of the surging Dallas Mavericks.

If you can't answer a man's arguments, all is not lost. You can still call him vile names.
Elbert Hubbard

by Tyrusmancrush on Mar 13, 2010 11:25 AM CST up reply actions  

I agree on the VDN point

Never been a fan of his.

But this overly obsessive trend of talking about old Bulls needs to go. We have a team, they have their new teams…let it be.

"..what you mean? I'm a legend like Kareem!"

by CommittedToExcellence on Mar 13, 2010 4:22 PM CST reply actions  

meant to reply to

Tyrusmancrush

"..what you mean? I'm a legend like Kareem!"

by CommittedToExcellence on Mar 13, 2010 4:22 PM CST up reply actions  

Let's face it, nothing would solve this depression like...

James Johnson going-off for 30 points in a tough game that we WIN. He’s the wildcard, and the only thing that would make clearing the roster of a swingman and an athletic, talented PF worth these recent woes. If James can perform, Deng becomes expendable for a low post threat (and who really wants him besides Minny, giving us Jefferson?). We’re still going to need a SG and another SF to go with James Johnson as he develops… if Joe Johnson, Manu, or, (cough) Wade (cough) signed for near a max contract (obviously Manu would be cheaper) we could grab a full mid-level exception player like Josh Childress, Korver, or Mike Miller. We could actually do all this without letting go of Kirk, too. In addition, if we get Johnson or Manu for under max contracts, JR wouldn’t go batty over extensions for Noah in 2011 and Rose in 2013.

Joakim Noah – Omer Asik
Jefferson – Taj Gibson
James Johnson – Childress (Yes, I think JJ will be a bit better than Childress)
Joe Johnson – Hinrich
Derrick Rose – Hinrich

This also reunites Josh and Joe, which from what I remember worked as a good combo on the perimeter. Is it a championship team? Uh, I say we’d be about as talented as the Mavs. Of course, if you exchange Joe for Manu and Childress for Korver, you’re talking a significant talent different. With Wade and Miller your talent is greatly improved. Regardless, I get a little giddy whenever GarPax the Great mentions stealing Jefferson for the oft-injured Deng. Jefferson will be a beast after an offseason sans-surgery and a team where he can play the PF consistently. If we could just guarantee that Minnesota ends-up drafting Cousins this plan could get a kick-start in May.

All this can be remarkably possible if Del Negro hits el curbo.

Chicago Bulls Management - Wasting millions on moronic rosters since 1999

by Another Afflicted Chicago Fan on Mar 15, 2010 6:42 PM CDT reply actions  

You're really drinking the JJ Kool Aid, aren't you?

You think that he’ll progress so much this season (read: in the next 16 games) that he’ll make Deng expendable?

I want a pipe of whatever you’re smoking.

Will everyone stop hating on Deng, please?

by Chalkwhite on Mar 17, 2010 2:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

After watching him play in college

and listening to the reports from summer league play, I just thought there was definitely room on a Bulls team for a young SF with handles and court vision. He may never be an all-star, but someone who can help set-up an offense for a shoot-first PG is invaluable. If he develops into a legitimate offensive threat who can create off the dribble and create his own shot (along with a consistent jumper) then I do not see how he would be an improvement over Deng. He already has a better inside game and better ballhandling. We just have to make sure our next coach has the capability to develop his decision-making on the court and improve his maturity level.

Chicago Bulls Management - Wasting millions on moronic rosters since 1999

by Another Afflicted Chicago Fan on Mar 20, 2010 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

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