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Around SBN: The Ten Worst Swings Of The 2011 Season

The last 20 games could lead to uneventful summer.


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I don't see much hope for the playoffs even with Noah back. As a team the Bulls defense and rebounding has really dropped off. The Bulls were also one of the better shot blocking teams in the NBA before the trade. This month is bound to knock out the Bulls. Unless they some how put a winning streak together I'd say the Bulls luck has run out. 

But really this is why you have to beat the teams you should beat. Nets, Wizards, Bucks, Pacers, Kings, Knicks, Sixers!

They are now fighting for the chance to play Cleveland. Which was the team I really wanted all along after this fine display of sportsmanship. Of course that was before the LeBron stopper was traded. 

 With the Bucks and Heat coming on strong it looks like this could be the last 20 games of the season until the summer of LeBron. (Or for us Boozer?)

I guess we can use these last 20 games to evaluate this roster and see who they should bring back. I pretty much have written them off.  The key to a run falls squarely on the captains Luol Deng and Kirk Hinrich. But thats not looking promising so far.  I guess the only positive to missing the playoffs is that VDN has no chance to return. 

If the Bulls fail to make the playoffs I think the blame goes to Gar Forman for putting this rather thin roster together. If it does in fact effect the 2010 plan ( I don't think it does) then some heads should roll. Signing Carlos Boozer is a failure in my opinion. Nobody wants to be the Jazz of the East. 

 

If this is the roster next season..

Rose

Hinrich

Deng

Boozer

Noah

well then thats a failure. 

Lets not for get what the goal should be over the playoffs. Build a team around Derrick Rose!!!! 

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I see us going 10-10 down the stretch, leaving us right at .500

And I think that will be good enough to make the playoffs, because I’m convinced that at least one of the other 4 teams we’re battling with will suffer some sort of collapse and end up at least a couple games under .500.

And I wouldn’t mind at all being the Jazz of the East.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Mar 7, 2010 2:56 PM CST reply actions  

We won't be ousted every year

because next year we’ll be the Mavs of the East, with Bosh!

by Stacey_Is_King on Mar 7, 2010 4:49 PM CST up reply actions  

Bosh on this team does not mean Dallas

Dallas is deep and depth will be a problem after we add a player like Bosh.

by SobersUP on Mar 7, 2010 5:16 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah and signing a Max guy doesn't solve all the problems for the Bulls.

They have a horse shit bench as well. One guy does not volt them into Dallas’ thermosphere.

by SoulEater7 on Mar 7, 2010 5:41 PM CST up reply actions  

Signing LeBron or Bosh does.

The bench can easily be fixed. It’s not hard to fill out a bench once you have a good team. There’s no reason for us to have a good bench right now when we don’t even have a very good starting line up. The guys who make up a good bench, those role playing types, will come to our team if we add a superstar to Rose and Noah.

by Grinder in Training on Mar 8, 2010 2:46 PM CST up reply actions  

Sign Bosh, Amare, or Boozer

Taj goes to the bench, that strengthens the bench, JJ has played better recently and I think he will be a big contributor for us next year.
Bron brings countless possibilities.

by QUINTEN DALEY on Mar 8, 2010 3:20 PM CST up reply actions  

If we get Bron.. Who are your bigs?

We are getting exposed by bigs getting career games against us. We sub Bon for Deng and we get better but is our defense better?.. We get Noah back but it is clear that the problem is more than Noah missing. We need 2-3 bigs that defend and can be consistent presence in the paint. Bosh is a better fit and Boozer will be a disaster. He’s been a bum until the final day of his contract. He’ll mail it in once he signs.

by SobersUP on Mar 13, 2010 10:52 AM CST up reply actions  

The jazz have at least been in position to contend for a title each of the lat few years

I’d gladly take that. I’d love to be able to watch the bulls average over 50 wins a year over the course of 4 years. And I think we’d have q chance to do more than that, considering that we’d have a better and younger core of talent than the jazz did 4 years ago.

And you’re quite wrong about going out in the second round each year. That only happened once to them, two years ago. The year before that they made it to the western finals and last year they lost in the first round.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Mar 7, 2010 6:40 PM CST up reply actions  

I hope we miss the playoffs

That will force management to look at the crappy job they have done filling holes. Kirk, Deng and everyone else Not named Noah should be shown the door or traded. I know the Bucks can swap picks with us but maybe we land in the top ten. Include that pick in a trade with Kirk or Deng to be a Bosh, Amare our way. If we don’t land in the top ten then the Bucks swap picks with us and we end up with a lower rookie cap hold. 3 things I would like to see this off season besides Vinny getting cut.

1. The Out right signing of Dwanye Wage
2. Signing Rudy Gay to an offer then working out a sign and trade, us sending Loul Deng to Memphis
3. Trading Kirk and the top ten lottery pick to the Lakers for Bynum and lakers pick.Would have to get a 3rd team involved but it’s possible. Maybe we send this years lottery pick to that 3rd team willing to send player back to Lakers to make salarys match. Then we send Lakers Bobcats draft pick we got in the Tyrus trade.

The starting five would look like this

PG Rose
SG Wade
SF Gay
PF Noah
C Bynum

Bench
Gibson
J.Johnson
Free Agent
Free Agent
Free Agent
O.Asik

by Bullsfanla on Mar 7, 2010 3:34 PM CST reply actions  

That would be a really good lineup to end up with…but…

Why is Memphis going to trade Gay for Deng? They would only trade Gay because they don’t want to have to pay him what Deng already makes. Getting Deng doesn’t save them $$$. Also I don’t think it’s very likely that the Bulls will have a top 10 pick. Finally, I doubt the Bulls can turn Hinrich and their 1st round pick into Bynum, anything is possible with three team deals, but it would seem unlikely.

I’d be pretty happy with step 1, and then we see from there.

by kingles on Mar 7, 2010 3:51 PM CST up reply actions  

Bynum is good, but

I don’t think he’s going to be that dominate force everybody thinks he is.

by QUINTEN DALEY on Mar 8, 2010 3:21 PM CST up reply actions  

Why would the Lakers do that?

Trading Kirk and the top ten lottery pick to the Lakers for Bynum and lakers pick.

We miss you, Tyrus Thomas and Ben Gordon!

by Granny Waiters on Mar 7, 2010 6:29 PM CST up reply actions  

Since the Bulls keep giving players away for this plan they better get somebody better than Boozer.

by kingles on Mar 7, 2010 3:36 PM CST reply actions  

Thats what I'm saying!

They better not go threw all this crap for Boozer or David Lee.

by SoulEater7 on Mar 7, 2010 3:49 PM CST up reply actions  

I understand Wade or LeBron or Bosh is the ideal

But don’t piss on David Lee. He is top 15 in the NBA in PER. He is just barely behind Bosh in TS%. His defensive rebound rate is better than Bosh and Noah. He is also pushing top 10 (currently 11th among players playing 30 min per game) in FG% from 16-23ft.

Would I prefer one of those top guys? Definitely. But I think David Lee (especially at a deal below the max) is a steal!

by DRose01 on Mar 7, 2010 4:02 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah but lets be honest anyone outside those three is a failure.

He’s a nice player don’t get me wrong. But he’s not getting you anywhere. You have to have stars to get calls.

by SoulEater7 on Mar 7, 2010 4:06 PM CST up reply actions  

Let the Nets and Knicks overpay for Lee, Lee is not a post up 4,

I want a true throw the ball down low 4, Lee’s post up game isn’t good at all, lets get the big fish (Bosh), and leave the other teams to fight for the small fish (Lee)

by QUINTEN DALEY on Mar 8, 2010 3:24 PM CST up reply actions  

Bosh isn't a post up 4 either

Vinny: "[Thrust] means pace, it means getting the ball out, it means getting your back to the sidelines, it means extending your outlets, it means getting the ball up the court into our early offense with plenty of time."

by runningman on Mar 8, 2010 3:43 PM CST up reply actions  

But he's not a "true, throw the ball down low 4"

What if LeBron James said he wanted to come and play PF?

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Mar 8, 2010 4:48 PM CST up reply actions  

The whole point is that if a player is good

he’s good. If Bosh can be a great player with rarely posting up, then it’s obvious that posting up isn’t a crucial part of the equation.

Lee actually scores 82% of his points from inside, as opposed to 46% for Bosh, according to 82games.com

Obviously Bosh is clearly better than the other options, but you’re just making up reasons out of thin air to criticize Lee.

Vinny: "[Thrust] means pace, it means getting the ball out, it means getting your back to the sidelines, it means extending your outlets, it means getting the ball up the court into our early offense with plenty of time."

by runningman on Mar 8, 2010 11:26 PM CST up reply actions  

Correction

Lee takes 82% inside, as opposed to 46% for Bosh.

Vinny: "[Thrust] means pace, it means getting the ball out, it means getting your back to the sidelines, it means extending your outlets, it means getting the ball up the court into our early offense with plenty of time."

by runningman on Mar 8, 2010 11:28 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't see what the fascination with a post up 4 is

A good low post player is a neccesity for a team that relies on outside shooting, which is what we were before rose. But now our offense is built around rose, which, IMO, makes a PF who excels at running the pick and roll a better fit.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Mar 8, 2010 4:20 PM CST up reply actions  

Having a post up player helps

deversify the offense and a good way to kill opposing team’s runs and get to the line.

by QUINTEN DALEY on Mar 8, 2010 4:27 PM CST up reply actions  

Lee is a good player, Boozer is a good player too.

The question to me is, what player could make the Bulls better than they would have been if they had kept BG, and started Tyrus and re-signed him? Lebron, Wade, and Bosh are the only FA’s who pass that test, IMO.

by kingles on Mar 7, 2010 4:19 PM CST up reply actions   2 recs

Doesn't mean signing Lee is a failure

First, Rose is slowly becoming a star which helps a ton. Second, if the Bulls were to sign Lee and then get Gay or Joe Johnson in a sign and trade, that would be a great summer.

by DRose01 on Mar 7, 2010 5:16 PM CST up reply actions  

What is so bad about Boozer?

Sure he’s not my top pick (Wade or if possible obviously really Lebron) or second picks (Bosh)…

But Boozer when healthy is a beast, an offensive beast.

I think a lineup of the ever improving Rose with Boozer, Noah and Deng is solid.

I’d take that lineup over DWill-Matthews-Okur-Millsap anyday…..

Ok Stacey I'm am so sick of hearing the "Hard Hat and Lunch Pail" nickname for Taj. Enough already, wasn't funny the first time, but you now say it 15-20 times per broadcast. It's enough to make me want to hate Taj, when I don't hate Taj.

by majoyenrac on Mar 8, 2010 12:37 PM CST up reply actions  

What's so bad about Boozer?
when healthy

That’s really the main thing. Otherwise he’d be great to have.

Joakim on whether he ever tried tennis: "I played a little bit. If anybody on the Bulls wanted to play me, I would kick their ass."

by bigballa10 on Mar 8, 2010 4:31 PM CST up reply actions  

Results-oriented analysis is not what we should be using to judge the front office

IMO, clearing cap space to even have a chance at signing one of the big 3 was clearly the right move. Even if one of them doesn’t come here, it was still the right decision to make. Things aren’t nearly as black and white as you make it. Everything is relative. Settling for boozer or Amare is by no means a complete failure. If you believe that, than you are just an idiot who fails to understand that life cannot be looked at in absolutist terms .

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Mar 7, 2010 6:45 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

no wonder you have such a high opinion of everything Bulls

Results-oriented analysis is not what we should be using to judge the front office

by Basketball Smurf on Mar 7, 2010 6:49 PM CST up reply actions  

You'e reading into that completely wrong

Here’s what I’m trying to say. Let’s say you’re offered a bet where you roll a die. If you land a 6, you win $20. If you land anything else, you lose $1. A quick calculation shows that the +EV (expected value) decision, and therefore the right one if you like money, is to take the bet. Now let’s say you end up rolling a 1. Does that mean it was a bad decision to take the bet? No.

Comparing that to the 2010 situation. Basically, if we get one of the big 3 (roll a 6), our payout is huge. If not, our payout is less than optimal. But does that mean if we get unlucky and strike out that it was still a bad idea to try? The answer is no, if you believed it was the right decision in the first place. Now obviously the numbers aren’t as well-defined here as in my hypothetical, and it could be argued that giving up BG and TT was not worth the chance at a big 3 player, in which case you’d come to the conclusion that 2010 was a bad idea. But in either case, looking at the decision in terms of results is the wrong way to go, but unfortunately, that’s always how things end up being evaluated.

But obviously, when evaluating the front office as a whole, results have to be taken into account.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Mar 7, 2010 9:33 PM CST up reply actions  

i was just joking

i understand the risk the Bulls took and though I haven’t supported all the personnel decisions undertaken in pursuit of 2010, I don’t have a problem with the basic plan. I think most people’s ire is raised because they feel the Bulls could have pursued 2010 while maintaining a more competitive, young team if different personnel decisions had been pursued. My main problem is that the Bulls, after getting the #1 pick and drafting Rose, were in a great position but with almost every personnel decision since, have maneuvered themselves into what I feel is a weaker position.

Under those circumstances I think what people define as success will vary. Obviously if the Bulls end up with one of the big 3 – win. But what if they only get A’mare? I would interpret that as a win. Only get Joe Johnson? Loss. David Lee? Loss. Boozer? Loss. Because the potential to do more, to be better positioned, existed.

I still think the Bulls are in position to put a team together that is at the very least a 2nd round team in the East and a challenger for the Eastern Conference Finals. If they completely strike out or if the team is not significantly improved I think its fair to criticize them harshly. Not because the idea was bad, but because the execution has been horrid. Its not enough to clear space to get a free agent. That was the easy part. A bunch of other teams managed to do that as well. Now they have to put together a team that can win.

by Basketball Smurf on Mar 7, 2010 9:59 PM CST up reply actions  

Well, I may be an “idiot”, but I have never really liked the 2010 “plan”

As I told you before the trade deadline, I think the “plan” is a cost cutting measure with the lure of a big payoff this summer keeping the fanbase on board. I don’t think many people will follow me here, but this is an alternative “plan” that the Bulls could have followed…

The Bulls retain this base of talent for 2009-10:

C: Noah/ Miller
PF: Tyrus/ Taj
SF: Deng/ Salmons
SG: BG/ Hinrich
PG Rose/ Hinrich

Now this team is a good team with a ton of flexibility. It would go maybe say $7-8mil into the luxury tax for THIS year. The Bulls who are the most profitable franchise in the NBA, can easily afford this. Now you would say that this is not a true contender. I would agree, but I think it would have been a 50 win team with a young core and still significant upside. This is not the end of the story though, because what I would have proposed is that the Bulls use their unmatched financial strength as leverage against other teams with good players they can’t afford to sign/keep. There are many teams in the NBA who absolutely CAN’T afford to go into the luxury tax. The Bulls could use that to trade a good player that they already had, for better player that team X can’t afford. So I’m not simply proposing that the Bulls should have just stood pat and hoped that they eventually developed into a championship team. Rather I’m proposing that they should have used a method more along the lines of what say the Yankees or Red Sox use within the stricter spending rules of the NBA.

To use your gambling analogy, I’m saying they should have invested some money in say an IRA, and some more money in some carefully considered stocks. What the Bulls have done, is take a bunch of their money into a Vegas casino. If the Bulls walk out of the casino with stacks of cash, great, if not…not so good. If the Bulls had started out with the talent base of say the Knicks, this would have been a GREAT idea. The Bulls though didn’t need to take this gamble, IMO.

by kingles on Mar 8, 2010 7:28 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

I would say this is an above average team but...

Would Rose have developed as quickly as he has or would he have continued deferring to BG? I really like TT as a player, but if VDN kept refusing to give minutes to him, TT would have remained an above average at best player (albeit amazing defensively). Now the Bulls would have remained a solid team, but they would have had little chance of participating in the 2010 sweepstakes outside of a sign and trade. Now, if they would have shed themselves of Hinrich’s and Salmon’s contracts at the deadline, now we’ve got something. Otherwise, they are stuck as a good, but not contending team for several years.

by DRose01 on Mar 8, 2010 8:21 AM CST up reply actions  

Because the Bulls have financial capabilities that most other teams do not
they wouldn’t be “stuck” with anything.

Like I said, the Bulls could have used their financial muscle to take advantage of other teams financial distress and make unbalanced trade(s) in THEIR favor. Along the lines of the Lakers-Memphis Gasol trade. The opportunities for such deals would certainly have existed over the next couple seasons. For example, they probably could have gotten say Boozer this last offseason for a bargain if they’d really tried. That’s just an example, more and better opportunities likely would have awaited them down the line, I guess we’ll never know what really could have happened.

I don’t believe that Rose would have not developed if BG had stayed. Would he have scored as much…no, but he wouldn’t have needed to. I don’t really see where BG would have stunted the continued development of Roses’ SKILLS, which is a seperate issue. It almost goes without saying that I would not have hired VDN, the Bulls could have afforded to get the best available, but preferred the cheapest.

by kingles on Mar 8, 2010 8:53 AM CST up reply actions  

But Vinny would've kept

calling Iso plays for BG at critical points of game, and we all know BG is not an Iso player. Not having BG is better for Rose’s developement

by QUINTEN DALEY on Mar 8, 2010 3:32 PM CST up reply actions  

In my hypothetical future world, Vinny is not the coach.

I can’t even remember who else was available besides D’Antoni and Collins, but one thing is for sure. In my imaginary Bulls future, I need a coach with far more imagination than VDN.

Having another dependable shooter/scorer would be helpful for Derrick. I could be wrong, but I think that BG would be willing to be the 2nd or 3rd option on offense if the situation called for it.

by kingles on Mar 8, 2010 6:51 PM CST up reply actions  

Well if you never liked 2010 to begin with, I can respect that point of view, even if I disagree with it

If you feel that having bg and tt plus the ability to use our financial muscle to pilfer other teams of talent is worth more than a shot at 2010, well you might be right. However I don’t think you are. When I look at the roster you have, I see an above-average team with very limited payroll flexibility. Factor in that rose and Noah will need extensions in the next 2-3 years and I don’t see that group contending, because once rose and Noah get extensions, that payrolls starts to push the $90 million range, effectively limiting our ability to add anybody else.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Mar 8, 2010 12:20 PM CST up reply actions  

Cap relief would still be on the way though.

Remember, Brad is if not god, definately expiring after this season. Even if they choose to re-sign him the reduction in his pay alone would have made up for Noah’s extention. James is a $6mil contract coming off the books who doesn’t even play. By the time Derrick would be getting extended, Kirk’s contract would end and if they did decide to re-sign him at that time it would certainly be at a reduced rate thus mitigating at least part of Rose’s extention. So if they did nothing else, their payroll would probably be in the upper $70mil-lower $80mil AFTER Derricks extention kicked in. Changes in the NBA’s economic system may change this, but if it did it would be to LOWER it if anything.

Now there is also the fact that Salmons would have been an expiring contract next year that the Bulls would have had the option of trading for a better player in exchange for cap relief to some poor team that needed it. Same with Kirk the following year. Had they signed BG to a 5/$50mil extention before last year which is what part of this is predicated on, the same would have been true of him the year after that.

So they certainly would have had some payroll flexibility and that’s just of the top of my head. I know it doesn’t matter which is why I wrote the other response to you. It’s the 2010 plan or bust, how I feel about it is kind of irrelevant. I just hope it works out.

by kingles on Mar 8, 2010 1:50 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah but I thought you were implying that we should trade our expirings to teams looking for luxury tax relief

I thought that’s what you meant by using our leverage to acquire talnt, like what Houston did with kevin martin. If that wasn’t your intention, I misread your post.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Mar 8, 2010 2:25 PM CST up reply actions  

Maybe I miswrote my post.

I’m saying we would get cap relief from the players expiring after this season. After that, we would have FLEXIBILITY in what we did with Salmons, Hinrich, and Gordon when they were going to be expirings. We could trade them for better players in order to provide another team cap relief. We could try to re-sign them to what would likely be lower paying deals (certainly they would be in the 1st two cases). This would help keep our payroll from getting out of hand, or allow us to use the money saved to follow up on other opportunities that might come up.

The point is we would have options going forward, and wouldn’t be locked into that lineup due to their getting too expensive.

by kingles on Mar 8, 2010 7:20 PM CST up reply actions  

i rec'd just because

it almost makes me cry thinking how good this team could have been this year if we would have kept the team from the second half of last yr together.

"4 inches, baby!" --ripped off from Kush

by anorexorcist on Mar 8, 2010 12:22 PM CST up reply actions  

What is the point of this team though?

That team nevers win a championship. Ever. So we might get a 4 seed? and maybe even get to the second round of the playoffs? What good is that? We’re still losers at the end of the season.

You can’t use a baseball team’s method where they have no salary cap. They can horde assets b/c there is no limit to what you can have.

What would we have got for Ben Gordon if we trade him? Considering what he signed for, do you really think he is all that valuable to anyone? He’s another Kirk Hinrich with the salary he has. You aren’t getting a superstar in return for Ben Gordon, Ty Thomas (if we had resigned him long term), or Hinrich at their salary levels. They weren’t values. They are nice complimentary players for a much better team. Better teams aren’t trading us good players for Ben Gordon or Kirk Hinrich. Bad teams aren’t trading for those guys at all. For our team they are dead weight.

Not to mention the Casino is a bad example. In pro sports, there is only one winner. It’s not like real life where you can save money, buy a nice house and car and have a good life, or say screw it and bet it all on Red and hope you get a mansion. In sports you either get the mansion or a shack in a Brazilian shanty town. We’re living in that shanty town right now. You know where that line up you proposed gets you? On the wrong side of Rio de Janeiro.

by Grinder in Training on Mar 8, 2010 2:59 PM CST up reply actions   2 recs

I don't completely agree that it's all or nothing

It’s a lot more fun to root for a contender than it is to root for a team with no shot, even if you don’t win it all. Just knowing that there’s a realistic chance of winning it big makes the experience a lot more fun than a situation like this year, where we know that there’s no real point to the season.

That said, I rec your post for its literary style.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Mar 8, 2010 3:11 PM CST up reply actions  

It's the realistic chance you refer to

that matters to me. In basketball, unlike most other sports, unless you are one of the few very elite teams, in my opinion you don’t have a realistic chance. It was fun to watch us play Boston last year, but I can’t imagine I’m the only one who thought that even if we won that round, we weren’t winning it at all.

I guess it just comes down to the fact that my definition of a realistic contender for the NBA is very small. At the start of every season, outside of injuries (and even then I think you’d be fine) is there a year in the last 10 – 20, where you couldn’t predict the NBA champion if you were allowed to pick 6 teams?

by Grinder in Training on Mar 8, 2010 3:31 PM CST up reply actions  

My philosophy in sports is,

you never want to be a middle of the pack team, you either want to be a title contender or getting the #1 draft pick.

by QUINTEN DALEY on Mar 8, 2010 3:38 PM CST up reply actions  

how's that work in baseball and football?

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Mar 8, 2010 4:49 PM CST up reply actions  

In baseball and football not as much, because of the minor league system

and draft of baseball, nad NFL draft, teams can take chances on plenty of players, but Basketball one player can change the fortune of your franchise, not everybody has a shot at the title, but you don’t want to be in the middle(can’t get the best available talent and not even close to winning a title.

by QUINTEN DALEY on Mar 8, 2010 4:56 PM CST up reply actions  

You just said your "philosophy in sports"

I was critical of that statement.

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Mar 9, 2010 12:02 PM CST up reply actions  

Baseball and football are very different

There’s a lot more variance intheir playoff systems, so the worse team wins fairly often. In baskteball, that rarely happens, so you gotta be one of the top 5-6 teams jn the league. In baseball, once you get into the playoffs, it’s a crapshoot, and evrlery year. All but the weakest 8-10 teams have a pretty good shot at getting in. Football’s sort of in between.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Mar 8, 2010 10:19 PM CST up reply actions  

I agree with that

I never claimed the bulls were a legit contender last year. They clearly were. But there seems to be a notion that teams like the hawks and the jazz aren’t contenders, while I would say they are. I think I would define a contender as any team that has a decent chance at beating the favorite (cavs or lakers take your pick) in a 7-game series.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Mar 8, 2010 4:23 PM CST up reply actions  

Fair enough, may have read a bit more into your post

Then you intended. I would think it’s safe to say the Hawks and Jazz are much better than the Bulls would be with Gordon and Thomas. I think if his scenario made us contenders even at that level, it’s not completely awful, but I don’t think it does.

by Grinder in Training on Mar 8, 2010 4:38 PM CST up reply actions  

Tell me, what did the Lakers trade for Gasol?

As I laid it out, Salmons would be an expiring contract next year. Hinrich the year after, and had they signed Gordon when they could have he would be expiring the next year. Players with expiring contracts are far more valueable to cash strapped teams than just the value of their ability on the court. We would have had flexibility down the line..WE WOULD NOT BE PERMENENTLY STUCK WITH THAT LINEUP!

Re-signing Tyrus wouldn’t have been as expensive as these other players (maybe Salmons). Also, I think you are discounting any future growth from Rose, Noah, and Thomas.

Seriously, how can you possibly derive ANY joy from following any sports team? Nobody wins all the time. Being a fan must be a great burden when only winning a championship is of any value at all.
 

by kingles on Mar 8, 2010 8:13 PM CST up reply actions  

Playing for a championship

If I feel my team can potentially win a championship, or if they are making the moves necessary to put themselves in that position (which I believe they did), then I will enjoy it. I enjoy watching Rose and Noah grow up, Noah especially just because I really didn’t give him the credit he deserves when he got here. He’s really improved his game.

I don’t care if we win or lose right now, because it doesn’t matter. So I’d assume I’m probably getting more enjoyment out of it then most fans. For me, I know this season is a wash before it began, so as long as Rose develops, which I think he is, I’m enjoying the games.

No one is trading you a superstar for John Salmons expiring contract & Ty Thomas. It took Al Jefferson and more to get Kevin Garnett, and people still said the trade was unacceptable. Pau Gasol was a once in a decade, maybe once ever, trade with a GM who got ripped to shreds for making the deal.

Who do you think we would have got for Gordon, Hinrich or Salmons or Tyrus that would help us win a championship? Names? Assuming, as has been proven over and over in the NBA, you need a superstar and a great player to win a championship, who is the superstar we are adding? I just don’t see it.

The best expiring contract this year, TMac’s, only netted Kevin Martin, Hilton Armstrong and a first round pick, and they had to add Carl Landry to even make that happen. How in the hell is Kirk Hinrich or Ben Gordon’s expiring going to get us the superstar we need to pair with Derrick Rose to win a championship?

by Grinder in Training on Mar 9, 2010 9:00 AM CST up reply actions  

At least you clarified the ‘only a championship matters’ thing.

Actually the Gasol trade was a once in the last 3 years thing, not neccesarily a once in a decade thing. More teams are in the position of having to make deals based purely on their economic situation, rather than a pure basketball value basis. So I believe that such deals may become more likely in the future (depending on potential changes in the CBA).

 Since I’m not a fortune teller, I can’t really be specific about future opportunities that may arise. However, a hypothetical example may give the gist of it. Say Durant indicates that he will not re-sign with OKC after next season. Perhaps Deng + Salmons expiring contract might be a pretty good inducement for a sign and trade. Perhaps we throw in a first round pick if needed, but the point is because we’ve retained some movable assets, we could do something like that without leaving the cupboard bare. And because Salmons expiring contract, would actually be more valueable to OKC than Salmons himself, OKC would possibly make a deal like that.

The future is not guarranteed, I’m not saying that if the Bulls had followed this concept rather than what they’re actually doing the future would automatically be better. Opportunities to significantly improve the team to contender status may never have arisen. Derrick could blow out a knee tomorrow, maybe BG gets injured worse if he’d have stayed, and would have never been the same. We don’t know what will happen, or what would have happened. Just the same as we don’t know how the 2010 plan will work out. All I am saying is that the 2010 plan was not the only potential way for the Bulls to reach contender status.

It’s really all irrelevant anyway. The decision has already been made, we can only hope that things work out the way we all want them to now.

by kingles on Mar 9, 2010 9:46 AM CST up reply actions  

So..

You think it’s more likely that
A) A player like Durant is available
B) Our ragtag bunch is going to be more attractive in a trade then what other teams have to offer?

or
That a free agent signs with us to play with Rose, Noah and Deng?

I mean these are your two options. I don’t see option A happening, option B.. it’s possible, even if it’s not probable.
Pau Gasol going for what he did is not once every 3 years.. Who are these other all stars, in their early prime, leaving teams for a pile of hot garbage? Kwame Brown, Aaron McKie?? Come on. That’s not every 3 years that goes down. Marc Gasol turned out be decent, but at the time, no one thought he was going to be worth anything.
Kevin Garnett had already been in the league for 12 years when he got to Boston. He was clearly at the end of his prime, as has been proven since they won the championship. And he cost a ton.

by Grinder in Training on Mar 9, 2010 11:04 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

One more time…

Again I said I used Durant as a hypothetical example of what COULD happen. If Durant indicated to OKC management that he WOULDN’T RE-SIGN with them, the offer I mantioned would be a very good offer IN THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES. I didn’t say this specific example was LIKELY, only that it was theoretically possible. We do not know what players may become available due to other teams financial or other issues in the near future. I would have been willing to gamble that the likelyhood of a similar, if not as spectacular, of an opportunity would have occurred over the next couple years. Just as we might not get one of the top FA’s this offseason, there is also a chance that such an opportunity would NEVER have come up in the near future. We don’t know, and will never find out.

Further, as I laid it out, the Bulls wouldn’t have needed to get a Lebron, Wade, Bosh, or Durant level player to have a chance at becoming a contender like they do now. A STAT, Boozer, or JJ level player would likely have been sufficient. I would definately take the Bulls chances of aquiring a player of that caliber over the next couple years in my scenario, than their chances of signing one of the “big 3” this offseason(which is likely the only chance they could possibly be a contender in the next couple years). They’ve dumped too many players for a Boozer, or JJ, to put them over the top now..

I didn’t say that the Gasol trade was a “once every 3 years” thing. I said it was a once in the LAST 3 YEARS thing, The economic situation in the NBA has changed from where it used to be. There are more “have not’s” then there have ever been before. The Bulls are at the upper level of the “have’s”, they would have been in a prime position to take advantage of those ‘have not’s’. The playing field has changed from what it was in the past. It may change again when there is a new CBA, we don’t know.

Finally, I will say it again, this is all idle speculation. The theory that I laid out will never be tested. We’ll never know how it would have worked out. I will never be able to PROVE I was right, and you will NEVER be able to prove I was wrong. Hell for all we know they’re a lottery team 3 years from now either way, or they could have been a championship team either way. All we’re really going to know is how what they actually DID turns out. You say it’s for the best, I 100% hope you are right.

by kingles on Mar 10, 2010 10:24 AM CST up reply actions  

I’m not really trying to be a doom and gloom guy

Just making the point that there were viable alternatives to get from point A (lower seeded playoff team) to point B (title contender), that would have been less painful to the Bulls fanbase than what they have actually chosen to do.

by kingles on Mar 8, 2010 10:00 AM CST up reply actions  

side note.

JVG has to be the dumbest color guy next to Mark Jackson.

by SoulEater7 on Mar 7, 2010 4:12 PM CST reply actions  

Also Mark Jackson is a

Kobe dick rider, saying he better than Mike.

by QUINTEN DALEY on Mar 8, 2010 3:39 PM CST up reply actions  

Hakim Warrick's inability to play effective consistantly

Has really hurt us

Why aren't they selling Rose's all star jersey?

by hongydraw on Mar 7, 2010 5:29 PM CST reply actions  

He's more consistent!

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Mar 7, 2010 6:56 PM CST up reply actions  

Don't you mean

that Hakim Warrick’s inability to play effectively hurts us?
He’s consistent, just consistently bad.

Go Rockets/Nets[CDR]/Bucks[Jennings]!

by Prevenge on Mar 8, 2010 1:39 AM CST up reply actions  

BOSH OR BOOZER

I would perfer bosh but if the bulls can’t get him they should get boozer instead of lee, because boozer is stronger and is more of a down low post player than lee and that’s what the bulls need. I also wanted to say that the bulls wouldn’t be like the jazz, losing in the second round every year because the east is much weaker than the west.

by Jermal on Mar 7, 2010 5:34 PM CST reply actions  

Are you kidding me?

You think Boozer gets you past Cleveland or Orlando or the Hawks? Not even close. Are they better with Boozer yes. But they still have holes and THE POINT IS YOU GAVE UP TYRUS AND BG… to land either Wade, Bosh or LeBron. Boozer just gets you back to where you were.

Boozer is a lateral move!

by SoulEater7 on Mar 7, 2010 5:46 PM CST up reply actions  

Boozer is too old and injury prone.

Lee is young. Don’t know why he doesn’t get more love. Say what you want about his “inflated numbers” in the D’Antoni system, but for a guy his size, he gets a lot done.

hard pail lunch hat

by headphones on Mar 7, 2010 5:49 PM CST up reply actions  

But you're missing the point.

It’s a lateral move. You didn’t give up 2 years of basketball and telling your share holders and fans to wait for David Lee!

by SoulEater7 on Mar 7, 2010 6:01 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Share holders?

Who are these share holders to which you refer?

Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.

by Dionysus2.0 on Mar 7, 2010 11:50 PM CST up reply actions  

This isn't the Green Bay Packers.

Taj Gibson is the face of Bulls basketball!
by Trey23 on Jan 5, 2010 6:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

by Ozzie Montana on Mar 8, 2010 12:42 AM CST up reply actions  

No

They don’t have any input into the team. Also, when the Bulls make profits, they don’t see a penny.

Buying season tickets is the equivalent of buying front row seats for a year at your local movie theater.

Vinny: "[Thrust] means pace, it means getting the ball out, it means getting your back to the sidelines, it means extending your outlets, it means getting the ball up the court into our early offense with plenty of time."

by runningman on Mar 8, 2010 4:02 PM CST up reply actions  

Yours and a hundred others.

Taj Gibson is the face of Bulls basketball!
by Trey23 on Jan 5, 2010 6:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

by Ozzie Montana on Mar 7, 2010 7:07 PM CST up reply actions  

it sadly looks that my prediction

of 41-45 wins will not come true.

Why aren't they selling Rose's all star jersey?

by hongydraw on Mar 7, 2010 7:42 PM CST up reply actions  

All of you need to use more imagination.

For example this works: CP3 to Portland, Pryz and Rudy to the Bulls, and James Johnson and a 2nd round pick to NO.

Using up our cap space is going to be a process that lasts from draft night to the trade deadline next February.

See YaoPau’s post on sign and trades

by hlac on Mar 7, 2010 9:09 PM CST reply actions  

If Hinrich is our starting SG next season, I quit.

There’s no excuse for a team with that much cap space to keep playing an out of position player at SG.

It didn’t work this year with Salmons, nor Hinrich, it’s time to actually do something about it.

by RyPac13 on Mar 7, 2010 11:58 PM CST reply actions   1 recs

Go ahead and quit then

Sorry, I don’t think having Hinrich as the 5th best starter on our team is travesty (assuming we get a PF).

Basically the way I look at is if we sign a SG, Hinrich becomes an excellent 3rd guard and Taj is a decent-enough option at PF. If we sign a PF, Hinrich is a decent-enough SG, and Taj is an excellent backup big man.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Mar 8, 2010 12:21 AM CST up reply actions  

Why not get a better 5th-best starter?

If you could get rid of Hinrich, get Wade and Lee, why is that bad? Seems like you’re not applying your own argument of EV from above.

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Mar 8, 2010 6:54 AM CST up reply actions  

If we could do that i'd be all for that

I was in favor of trading Kirk at the deadline. But my point is that we can still win a championship with him at SG.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Mar 8, 2010 11:26 AM CST up reply actions  

If they had Bosh, Rose, James and Noah, sure.

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Mar 8, 2010 11:36 AM CST up reply actions  

Well swap James for deng and you'll have something realistic

But even a lineup like rose/hinrich/deng/amare/noah could contend if we add enough depth via the draft and the mle, and that’s essentially our plan B

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Mar 8, 2010 12:23 PM CST up reply actions  

ummm... draft?

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Mar 8, 2010 1:20 PM CST up reply actions  

Don't overpay

If James and Wade stay where they are and Bosh stays or joins Wade, the Bulls can’t overpay a remaining free agent to placate the fan base. This happened to the Knicks with Isaiah’s contracts to Curry, Jerome James, and Jeffries. It happened to the Bulls with ERob and to a lesser extent when they tried to wrap up their corps of Deng, Hinrich and Nocioni.
Hopefully the Bulls could get Johnson, Lee (who I think the Knicks will have to overpay), or Boozer, improve their bench and retain flexibility to add a needed piece, possibly by taking advantage of a financially strapped team as kingles suggests.

by El Toro de Goro on Mar 8, 2010 1:23 PM CST reply actions  

Huge difference is though

That Boozer, Stoudemire, and if we’re lucky Dirk, Kobe, Johnson are all far better than any of those EROB, Nocioni’s….(as we know Lebron and Wade and likely Bosh at least are getting max deals…). Heck even old man Allen is a better pick than Curry, EROB, etc….and that doesn’t count Manu

There’s a lot of players to be had….and a lot of team’s with money. THis should be a fun summer for the NBA fan, I just hope it’s a fun summer for the NBA fan AND FINALLY For the super Bulls fan too.

Hell if we could swing it, we get Wade for a max deal and then throw money at old man Shaq for a 2 year deal….

Ok Stacey I'm am so sick of hearing the "Hard Hat and Lunch Pail" nickname for Taj. Enough already, wasn't funny the first time, but you now say it 15-20 times per broadcast. It's enough to make me want to hate Taj, when I don't hate Taj.

by majoyenrac on Mar 8, 2010 2:11 PM CST up reply actions  

El Toro don't

forget the Knicks overpaid Allan Houston because they thought they were getting Jordan, please don’t let David Lee be a Bull, that is one of my wishes.

by QUINTEN DALEY on Mar 8, 2010 3:46 PM CST up reply actions  

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