Recent History of Sign and Trades
Acquiring a FA through sign-and-trade has been a muddy issue for the 2010 offseason, at least for me. I've been unsure what we'd have to give up, whether teams without cap space are threats to get involved, and whether cap space gives us a better chance at landing a blue chipper than, say, a Gordon + Tyrus trade package. Here's all the big contract sign-and-trades that I could find from the past 15 years. I can't guarantee complete accuracy but I tried checking multiple sources to get the details right:
UNRESTRICTED FAs:
Hedo Turkoglu to the Raptors for a trade exception. The Raptors had cap space to sign him outright, but the Magic agreed to make it a sign-and-trade for nothing in order to land a trade exception.
Rashard Lewis to the Magic for a 2nd round pick. The Magic had the cap space to offer a 5-year max deal with Lewis, but Lewis wanted a 6th year, causing his S&T for a 2nd round pick.
Peja Stojakovic to the Hornets for a trade exception. The Hornets had plenty of cap space, but the Pacers didn't want to lose Peja for nothing. So they offered the Hornets $250k to persuade them to acquire Peja via sign-and trade instead, allowing them to get...
Al Harrington to the Pacers for a 1st round pick. The Pacers did not have cap space, but neither did any other option after the Bulls signed Ben Wallace and the Hornets traded for Peja. The Pacers though had their trade exception, making them "the only Harrington suitor that could complete a sign-and-trade without forcing Atlanta to take back significant salary." The Hawks were slashing salary after ownership issues, and the Pacers got Harrington for a 1st round pick.
Brad Miller to the Kings for Scott Pollard and a trade exception. This is the only example I could find of the "use other teams with cap space as leverage" idea posed by tyger and Mike McGraw. The Nuggets and Jazz had cap space and offered big contracts to Miller, but Miller wanted to join the contending, over the cap Kings, and the Pacers jumped at the trade instead of losing Miller for nothing.
Grant Hill to the Magic for Chucky Atkins and Ben Wallace. This goes far enough back where the details get a bit sketchy, but it looks like the Magic had enough cap room to sign two max FA's outright and agreed to a sign-and-trade to give Hill a 7-year max deal.
Tracy McGrady to the Magic for a 1st round pick. Sketchier again, as I can't remember or find out why McGrady was traded for so little despite being just a 3rd year player. I'm assuming he was unrestricted. The Magic had just brought in Hill and still had the cap room to sign McGrady, and they again agreed to S&T to give McGrady the full 7-year contract.
RESTRICTED FAs:
Restricted FAs require sign-and-trades if the acquiring team wants to avoid the offer sheet process, so their cost has been higher.
Joe Johnson to the Hawks for Boris Diaw and two 1sts. The Hawks had the cap space for Johnson's 5-year, $70 mil deal. The Suns were considering matching the offer (JJ was a restricted FA), but chose to honor Johnson's wish and let him walk in exchange for Diaw and two 1sts.
Eddy Curry to the Knicks for a 1st and a right to swap another 1st. Bulls had the right to match any offer, the Knicks wanted him, so he was swapped essentially for what became Tyrus and Noah. The Knicks were above the cap when this happened.
Kenyon Martin to the Nuggets for three 1st round picks. The Nuggets had the cap space for a max deal, but because Martin was restricted, they paid the Nets 3 first-round picks as compensation.
A few thoughts:
(1) I'm surprised by the consistent (lack of) compensation received by former teams of unrestricted players, and it makes me think that if LeBron/Wade/Bosh want to come here, we'd only have to give up a 1st or so in return.
(2) Rudy Gay, Randy Foye, Anthony Morrow, Kyle Lowry, JJ Redick, Sergio Rodriguez are restricted free agents, and the cost of acquiring a restricted FA can be ridiculously high. The Nuggets, for example, had to pay $90 million AND three 1st round picks to get Kenyon Martin (!!). Not that the players above will command much more than a 1st in most cases, but the trade cost should be factored in, especially for a Bulls team that will need the 1sts for depth.
(3) Why haven't there been more Brad Miller type S&T's to over-the-cap contenders? That trade scares me because that means, in theory, every team has a shot at LeBron/Wade/Bosh. I just can't figure out why this hasn't happened more often. Dozens and dozens of talented players have been unrestricted free agents in the past 15 years, yet there's just one instance of this happening? Any ideas?
My only guess is it could just be a GM freeze-out thing like we saw with Ernie Grunfeld and the Celtics deal he didn't make. A GM who trades LeBron/Wade/Bosh/Amare/Boozer/Johnson to a contender for crap just to avoid losing his player for nothing probably burns a lot of important bridges.
Overall, it looks like getting under the cap increased our chances of landing a blue chipper. I'm not suggesting the Bulls + Gordon + Tyrus would've been a contender that would force a GM freeze-out; but it's just that S&Ts to teams without cap space have been so rare.
FanPosts are user-created posts from the BlogABull community, and are to be treated as the opinions and views of that particular user, not that of the blogger or blog community as a whole.
69 comments
|
18 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Wow
Great read. YaoPau, would you mind if I linked this over at SacTown Royalty? I know that our members would find this very interesting.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
You were right Section
Great read Yao.
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
Interesting stuff, I wonder if with this being the best crop of FAs ever
if it’s also the most teams with max slots ever, including those with potentially two max slots. Maybe the idea of other cap pressure* will apply more this offseason as a result.
*remember how Paxson signed that Nocioni deal because the Griz were courting him? haha
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 4, 2010 6:23 PM CST reply actions
I think Aykis may rival your hate of Noc Matt.
Although, maybe that’s not even possible.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I'm not sure Donald Sterling is a human being. He had to have been manufactured by someone, possibly David Stern, so that one team could solely just make profit for the NBA while doing nothing good for themselves. -- Aykis 16
I don't hate Noc
I hate the way he plays.
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
I think Aykis may rival your hate of how Noc plays Matt.
Although, maybe that’s not possible.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I'm not sure Donald Sterling is a human being. He had to have been manufactured by someone, possibly David Stern, so that one team could solely just make profit for the NBA while doing nothing good for themselves. -- Aykis 16
believe it or not
there was a time when Noce was a good defender and rebounder. But after some injuries, he tried to transform his game into Dan Majerle. It didn’t go well.
by Basketball Smurf on Mar 4, 2010 10:15 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
All he does now is shoot.
A lot.
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
Oh and he takes more than just basketball shots.
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
by Aykis16 on Mar 4, 2010 10:16 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Oh great.....
A meeting of the minds between BaB & StR. This should be interesting….
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I'm not sure Donald Sterling is a human being. He had to have been manufactured by someone, possibly David Stern, so that one team could solely just make profit for the NBA while doing nothing good for themselves. -- Aykis 16
We could make it a threesome.
Wearing the black band for Jarrett Jack, Ime Udoka, Fred Jones, Sergio Rodriguez, Channing Frye, Luke Schenscher, Shavlik Randolph, James Jones, Josh McRoberts, Steven Hill, Jarron Collins, Michael Ruffin, Steve Blake and Travis Outlaw. Sacrificed to the unmerciful god of progress.
Ah, the glory days of the NO-CI-O-NI chants at the UC.
And Steve Kerr calling him a Grabowksi.
Taj Gibson is the face of Bulls basketball!
by Trey23 on Jan 5, 2010 6:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Mar 5, 2010 12:58 AM CST up reply actions 4 recs
Leave now please
YOU WILL NOT TARNISH THE NAME ANDRES NOCIONI
Brad Miller is god.
by Poloplaya14 on Mar 4, 2010 10:42 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
This coming from the guy whose sig says Brad Miller is god.
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
by Aykis16 on Mar 5, 2010 4:17 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I don't understand
Are you imyjng that there is a possibility of brad miller not being god?
Brad Miller is god.
by Poloplaya14 on Mar 5, 2010 12:57 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Yep
Eric Maynor.
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
by Aykis16 on Mar 5, 2010 2:29 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
LOL @ this whole exchange
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I'm not sure Donald Sterling is a human being. He had to have been manufactured by someone, possibly David Stern, so that one team could solely just make profit for the NBA while doing nothing good for themselves. -- Aykis 16
Good stuff
this shows that a free agent, if he is planning to go to a team with cap space, can really make his own deal. The team that is losing him has pretty much no power, and is likely to take picks and get a trade exception as value. Still have to convince 1 of the top 3 to come, but if it happens, the Bulls should be able to keep most of their team intact.
I foresee something like the Rashard Lewis deal happening in Chicago. I expect the Bulls to avoid going after RFAs
by Basketball Smurf on Mar 4, 2010 6:43 PM CST reply actions
Good to see this history of low compensation for these kinds of deals
It’d be nice if GarPax could use the S&T to preserve the opportunity to use the MLE to add a little depth to the roster
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
If I am not mistaken...
Hedo Turkoglu was signed and traded for Shawn Marion who went to Dallas in a four team deal with the Grizzlies, Mavs and Magic, involving Devean George, Kris Humphries, Antoine Wright, Greg Buckner and Nathan Jawai…The Raptors signed Marion to a 5 year, $38M deal that netted them Turkoglu as the prize…The Magic signed and traded Turkoglu at 5 year, $53M for the trade exception to which you referred.
Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.
Jerry Stackhouse also went to Memphis too.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I'm not sure Donald Sterling is a human being. He had to have been manufactured by someone, possibly David Stern, so that one team could solely just make profit for the NBA while doing nothing good for themselves. -- Aykis 16
You are correct...
Stackhouse and a 2016 second round pick went to Memphis…Stackhouse was then immediately waived by Memphis…
Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.
Right
and Memphis did that Dion, as I’m sure you know, cuz he only had 2 mil on his contract guaranteed. Cuban essentially made that trade happen, as he usually does, by spending money.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I'm not sure Donald Sterling is a human being. He had to have been manufactured by someone, possibly David Stern, so that one team could solely just make profit for the NBA while doing nothing good for themselves. -- Aykis 16
In other Bulls news...
Jamal Crawford was signed and traded 7 years, $56M to the Knicks with the JYD for Othella Harrington, Frank Williams, Dikembe Mutombo, Cezary Trybanski…
The Knicks were not exactly paying a premium there…they were just providing the Bulls with cap relief for JYD’s deal…which the Bulls took on to rid themselves of Jalen Rose…
Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.
Ooh good one
Yeah I’m sure I missed a couple, I had a hard time finding them via search.
Reading the links I'm surprised you found what you did. This stuff is not nearly as easy to research as maybe some might think.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I'm not sure Donald Sterling is a human being. He had to have been manufactured by someone, possibly David Stern, so that one team could solely just make profit for the NBA while doing nothing good for themselves. -- Aykis 16
Yeah, I've gone through many times to try to support my positions, and it's just crap hard.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
The Brad Miller S&T to the Kings also included Hedo Turkoglu going to the Spurs.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I'm not sure Donald Sterling is a human being. He had to have been manufactured by someone, possibly David Stern, so that one team could solely just make profit for the NBA while doing nothing good for themselves. -- Aykis 16
And Danny Ferry
FWIW.
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
With Scot Pollard, Danny Ferry and Ron Mercer...
Also changing teams…
Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.
Right.
I knew there were other players, but they were all minor and didn’t have a big impact on the trade itself other than Pollard.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I'm not sure Donald Sterling is a human being. He had to have been manufactured by someone, possibly David Stern, so that one team could solely just make profit for the NBA while doing nothing good for themselves. -- Aykis 16
Yeah I could see Bosh doing a S & T to the Thunder for
Jeff Green and some first rounders.
They could conceivably do that
But consider that they have enough cap room to sign a guy like David Lee without giving up jack squat. Who’s more valuable, Chris Bosh or David Lee AND Jeff Green? I think it’s pretty close.
Brad Miller is god.
when choosing between one superstar and two good players
i always choose the superstar. Bosh and average NBA player are better than Jeff Green and David Lee. Its really not that close.
by Basketball Smurf on Mar 4, 2010 11:34 PM CST up reply actions
Chemistry and saving money, though
who says the Thunder grab anyone this year? They’re going to try and keep their core probably, and then the other stuff is all secondary. :P
Go Rockets/Nets[CDR]/Bucks[Jennings]!
Except David Lee is more than just a good player
He’s not a superstar, but he’s about as close as you can get to superstar level without being a superstar. And Green is still only 23 and still developing. And there is something to be said for not putting all of your eggs in one basket.
Brad Miller is god.
Jeff Green stinks.
I’d rather have Bosh with Durant, Harden and Westbrook. If you pay them, they will come (in first place, a lot).
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Jeff Green sucks
Thrusting toward the playoffs, one game at a time.
by Illini15 on Mar 4, 2010 11:26 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
I was a little more generous?
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
I like the guy,
but people are always throwing his name around as some great young prospect and that’s just not the case. He’s a combo forward playing as an undersized PF who can’t rebound. He’s average at best.
Thrusting toward the playoffs, one game at a time.
Jeff Green = Kyle Singler
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Thats disrespect to Green,
Kyle Singler prays he’ll have the career Green is having, Singler will most likely be a 2nd round pick, and I’m happy as fuck the Bulls don’t have a 2nd rounder to draft him.
by QUINTEN DALEY on Mar 5, 2010 10:47 AM CST up reply actions
We'll see.
I just don’t like Jeff Green. He can’t shoot, can’t rebound, can’t get to the free throw line, doesn’t pass, doesn’t block shots, scores 14.6 points on 12.7 shots… I just don’t get what he does well.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
IMO, he's a more athletic version of Andres Nocioni
He’s shooting poorly this year, but he hit 38.9% from 3 last year.
Brad Miller is god.
I don't think you're reading the stats that you're looking at correctly.
he’s taking the same number of shots at the rim this year as he did in 2008, the year before Rose. So….
And why does Marcus Thornton go to the hoop so much? And Ronnie Brewer? Or CJ Miles?
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
trans. = You're wrong.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Okay...
I just don’t get your comparisons to Thornton, brewer and miles. I also don’t understand your point about shots at the rim.
I don’t get all the green hate. He’s a good young player. He’s tremendously athletic and is a decent 3-pt shooter. He’s not a guy who really creates his own shot all that much, but he’s got a decent handle and finishes a the rim well. He’s a very good perimeter defender. However, his effectiveness in that capacity is limited since he plays out of position at the 4 so much. Basically, he’s a more athletic (and therefore more effective) version of Andres nocioni.
Brad Miller is god.
by Poloplaya14 on Mar 5, 2010 3:40 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
wow, yeah, i was completely in the wrong place on that.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
He's not a good young player. He's good inside of 10 feet. Outside of 10 feet, he stinks.
This year he’s shooting less than 33% from 3 (which is terrible), but he still insists on launching 3.7 per game. For his career he’s a 34.7% 3 point shooter (still terrible) and he averages over 2.5 game and over 3 a game in each of the last two years. Because of his penchant for shooting a lot of shots that he doesn’t convert a high rate, he’s got a pretty meh TS% (52.7% this year and 52% for his career) despite being very effective around the basket. He’s a terrible rebounder for a PF, he doesn’t get assists and he’s not that great a defender.
I fail to see how you could look at the whole picture of who Jeff Green is and conclude he’s a good player.
His PERs for his career are 9.8, 13.9, 13.5 respectively. He’s slightly below average on O and not great on D. He’s not good.
Kirk Hinrich sucks. The end.
by fundamentallysound on Mar 5, 2010 5:31 PM CST up reply actions
I posted this on that other page and you obviously didn't read it. You have a tendency to not do that
And I think you guys are wildly underestimating Green. I’m gonna lay out two stat-lines for you
Player A Player B
USG% 18.8 22.5
TS% .527 .532
TRB% 9.4 10.8
AST% 6.6 9.4
STL% 1.6 1.4
BLK% 1.7 1.9
TOV% 10.7 10.4
DRtg 104 104
Player A is Jeff Green. Player B is Luol Deng. The two lines are almost identical except that Deng has a slight edge is rebounding, a few more assists, and a much higher USG%. The difference in USG% is explained by the fact that Green has much more offensive talent around him and doesn’t get the ball as much. Plus, Green’s 3-pt% is down significantly from last year, meaning his TS% is probably a bit lower than what he’s capable of. If you throw out his rookie year, when he just wasn’t a 3-pt shooter, he’s over 35% from 3-pt range, which is very respectable. And green and deng are very similar players from a defensive standpoint. They’re both very long, athletic 6’9" players who are strong perimeter defenders. However, Green has to play out of position at the 4, so too often he gets matched up against bigger, stronger PFs. Put him on a team where he can play the 3 full time, and he’ll be much better.
Brad Miller is god.
Basically if you believe deng is a good player (and I do) you have to consider green to be good
And considering how much less expensive green is, I’d rather have green. And I’m a huge deng fan
Brad Miller is god.
Deng's value mostly comes from defense, where he's worlds better than Green. And comparing Deng and Green makes no sense
because Deng plays SF (and is thus rebounding from the perimeter), whereas Green is rebounding from the PF spot (and should be closer to the basket). Green’s production from the PF spot is pretty shitty.
Also, Green has had one really shitty 3P% year (his rookie year you just decided to throw out), had one good year (last year 38.9%), and has had another bad year (this year 32.4%). He’s a bad three point shooter.
Green stinks and just because he MIGHT be better at SF (no evidence of that, because he’s always played PF), doesn’t change the fact that from where he HAS played and produced, he’s been below average.
Kirk Hinrich sucks. The end.
by fundamentallysound on Mar 5, 2010 11:11 PM CST up reply actions
You're wrong on so many levels
How many times have you watched Green play? It’s quite evident that the guy’s game is that of a small forward. His build is that of a small forward. His perimeter-oriented offensive game screams small forward. Just because the letters P and F show up next to his name in the box score, that doesn’t make him a PF. That’s just a label. Are you honestly trying to tell me that his game matches up more with guys like Tim Duncan and Zach Randolph than guys like Luol Deng and Andre Iguodala?
As for his 3-pt%, the reason we throw out his first year’s results is because he’s clearly improved his jump shot since then. His rookie year he shot 27.6% on 3s averaging only 1 attempt per game. Last year he shot 38.9% on 3.7 attempts per game. This year, that’s gone down to 32.4%. Now is he a 38.9% shooter (good, in your simplified vocabulary)? Probably not. Is he only a 32.4% shooter (bad, to you)? No, his real 3-pt accuracy probably lies somewhere in between, somewhere around 35% (decent). And even if you do want to include his rookie year, his career average lies right at 34.7%, which isn’t bad at all for an athletic 6’9" wing.
You also say Deng is worlds better than Green. What evidence do you have to suggest this. They both post DRtgs of 104. That said, I hate DRtg, and think it’s next to worthless as a stat, but if you happen to like it, there’s some evidence. They have similar steal and block percentages, but again, that doesn’t say a lot, since both players contribute a lot more on defense than what their box score stats indicate. All I can tell you is that everything I’ve seen/heard/read about Deng and Green indicates that they are very similar defensive players in both style and quality. Green’s a bit bigger and stronger, while Deng’s more savvy, but I think the difference is marginal on the whole.
If you’re still unconvinced on the Green-Deng comparison, look at their pages on HoopData. You’ll see some uncanny similarities in their numbers from particular spots on the floor. At the rim, Deng shoots 61.2% on 4.5 attempts per game, while Green shoots 64.5% on 4.1 attempts per game. At <10 feet, Deng shoots 47.7% on 1.5 attempts per game, while Green shoots 48.0% on 1.6 attempts per game. Their % assisted is reasonably close as well. The difference in their games lies in the fact that Deng averages 7.0 attempts from 16-23 ft as opposed to 2.5 for Green, but Green averages 3.7 attempts from beyond the arc as opposed to 1.1 attempts for Deng. And isn’t that what we’ve been wanting from Deng for a while now? To shoot fewer long 2s and more 3s? Well that’s what Green does.
Brad Miller is god.
One more thing
I just did a quick calculation to find Green’s and Deng’s respective eFG%s from 16+ ft. Green’s is .419, while Deng’s is .407, meaning Green is clearly a more effective outside shooter, despite the fact that he’s shooting worse than he did last year.
Brad Miller is god.
DRtg is a pretty poor indicator of individual defense.
Kirk Hinrich sucks. The end.
by fundamentallysound on Mar 6, 2010 3:07 AM CST up reply actions
Also, Jeff Green's defensive adjusted plus minus is a terrible +10 (negative numbers are better) where Deng's is around a 0.
Kirk Hinrich sucks. The end.
by fundamentallysound on Mar 6, 2010 3:10 AM CST up reply actions
check here:
Kirk Hinrich sucks. The end.
by fundamentallysound on Mar 6, 2010 3:11 AM CST up reply actions
I checked out that site and I don't see where you got your stats
They only have overall adjusted +/- (which by the way says flip Murray is better than Derrick rose). They do have unadjusted defensive +/-, which I’m pretty sure you’re looking at, based on the numbers you gave me.
And I just realized I have no idea why I’m going through all this trouble to prove the value of Jeff green.
Brad Miller is god.
fyi that isn't APM
It’s a raw. They match up with these numbers. Why Barzilai posted those to an APM site, I have no idea.
Damn it. Laziness on my part. My fault.
Kirk Hinrich sucks. The end.
by fundamentallysound on Mar 7, 2010 1:31 AM CST up reply actions
Thanks for doing this.
You’re right, the lack of players going to contending teams takes away from my case. I still think the logic and theory hold up, but I gotta take what’s happened into consideration.
I think the level of talent available does matter, though.
There are (potentially) three game-changing players that could be UFA’s this summer. Most seem to be “stars” on the David Lee/Amare Stoudemire level. Guys that make a difference and are recognized as really good, but not guys that project to produce 11-15 WARP every year for the next 3-5 years. They’re guys who project to add 5-7 WARP. James and Wade are pretty indisputably 2 of the 3/4 best players in the league right now. I think Bosh is in the Top 10.
Grant Hill is the only player on that list that even comes close to that designation. It doesn’t necessarily mean anything has to be different, but it does mean we’re on a whole new playing ground. More teams will want these guys’ services. Yeah, you might want Brad Miller or Al Harrington, but if you’re a really good team with assets, are you going to give up good players on rookie deals and solid players on okay deals for him? Probably not. I’d think about 20-25 teams would give up their entire roster just for a chance to try and rebuild around one of these guys.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
The Brad Miller to the Kings deal was absolutely terrible for the Pacers
Miller loves Indiana, but the Pacers didn’t want to pay him market value. So they arranged a sign and trade in which they took back Scott Pollard, who made pretty close to the same amount, but had destroyed his back the prior season.
So they did save money. Miller made $23.6M while the Pacers got Pollard for only $17M for the three years he played for them. Of course he never recovered from his injuries, played terribly and only managed 2314 minutes. Miller played over 7600 minutes and made the 2004 All-Star game.
Something I’ve been meaning to look at one day is the cost per minute played for NBA players. For example, Pollard’s salary worked out to something like $7500 per minute he played for the Pacers, while over the same time period, Miller only cost about $3100/minute. And obviously, the quality of his minutes was vastly superior to Pollards.
I believe they were using that long-term money to lock up Jon Bender
and I remember the first edition of Hollinger’s Basketball Prospectus I read had the player blub for Bender that read: "everytime I watched this guy I thought ‘damnit, this should be Brad Miller’. :)
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 6, 2010 4:07 PM CST up reply actions

by 













