Official BaB reminder: Chris Bosh is good and the Bulls should get him
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 30, 2010 10:25 AM CDT
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PrintThe clear best motivation of rooting against Toronto down the stretch (as if the hate itself isn't enough fun) is the theory that it'll force Chris Bosh to realize he'll never get into contention with his current situation's lack of flexibility (and lack of being good).
But do the Bulls even want Chris Bosh if he commands a max deal?
Yes. Very much so. Very much want.
As our eyes have turned towards Toronto here, several threads have gone over this debate over the desirability of Bosh, though I don't see much of one. Today, Andrew Sharp on SBNation.com tries to make the case of a 'franchise player' designation not applying to Bosh, and thus no max deal. Citing his more 'finesse' game, defensive issues, and lack of results with his current team...it's not that convincing of a case. No matter how Bosh does it (and hard to doubt a conscious effort by him to stay outside as long as he's on a go-nowhere team), he produces (currently 6th in the entire league in PER). No matter how he can't lift up the team defense of Calderon, Bargnani and Turkoglu, he himself is a solid defender. He just turned 26, has no significant injury history, and if you need help in evaluating the nebulous intangible qualities, has in fact led bad teams to the playoffs in his career.
But Sharp's argument is less about if whether Chris Bosh is really productive, as it is about his value relative to a max contract. That entire premise is flawed: Chris Bosh doesn't have to be on the same tier as LeBron or Wade (though I'd argue Wade isn't that much better of a value given his age and injury history) in order to deserve a max contract like those guys. The fact that the NBA institutes a maximum contract in the first place means that the salary value system is already off: LeBron could conceivably be worth twice as much as Bosh but the contractual rules won't allow it. So having both at the max wouldn't be overpaying Bosh as it would be underpaying LeBron.
And the lack of a hard cap (I'm choosing to ignore that Reinsdorf may know terms of the NBA's future salary structure plans that would influence his present spending) diminishes the importance of value in the first place. You don't win the championship by having the most valuable team relative to cost. It's having the most productive team. The Lakers are filled of overpaid players (including a 'non-franchise' big man who turned out to be quite the 'winner' once he got on a team that won...funny, that.), and while Sharp lists the top-10 salaries in the NBA as a kind of mark against overpaying, a lot of those players are on the best teams in the league.
But his 'no max for non-franchise' player stance does soften:
Chris Bosh could be looked at as a franchise player, but if you sign him to a max deal, you'd better be able to afford a max deal for someone like Derrick Rose.
Hey, the Bulls have someone like Derrick Rose! And the financial wherewithal to go headlong in the luxury tax supporting a team around the future max deals of Rose (also currently not 'worth' a max contract by the way, though I'd pay it) and Bosh, as well as the high-priced ones of Noah and Deng.
And the issue remains that it doesn't matter if Bosh will earn the max contract, that number is what it will take to get him here. So would I rather the Bulls saved a few million to get more of a value contract with David Lee, Carlos Boozer, or Amare Stoudemire taking a less-than-max deal? The cap space can only be used once, but the roster is not locked in if Bosh uses it all up, there are still trades and future exceptions (Bulls don't have to have their championship roster complete in 2010) to fill in the rest.
So I see no downside to maxing out Chris Bosh and getting him to Chicago even if it turns out he isn't as valuable relative to his salary. Give me the better player, not the better value. Get me the best team, not the most competitive one possible under the luxury tax threshold. If the Bulls have the attitude of shying away from Bosh to get less significant, 'value', pieces because it might cost them too much in the future to keep a Bosh+Rose team together, the Org. is never going to win anything significant anyway.
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When has JR ever given us an idea that
He cares about winning more then making money?
If he can stay under the luxury tax and fans still pay out the nose to fill the place every night, why does it matter to him if we win or not.
DA CUBS DA BEARS DA BULLS
I'm being optimistic.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 30, 2010 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions
Mistake.
Kirk Hinrich sucks. The end.
by fundamentallysound on Mar 30, 2010 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Ive learned this year not to be
all those articles about how much the Bulls franchise has made compared to how much they spend.
We have been much more in the “green” then winning teams.
JR is a al about the $ he could care les about winning with the bulls, as he has said before.
DA CUBS DA BEARS DA BULLS
I agree
I said the same thing on a different bulls blog comment and people were upset with me and saying that i didn’t know what i was talking about, it’s good to hear from another smart person that follows the game of basketball.
Bulls magnagement doens't care about winning
Good post Rudy, you do make more money if you win but if management care about winning they would bring in better players and get rid of the bad ones, like hinrich and pargo.
by Jermal on Mar 30, 2010 10:58 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Easier said then done
They’ve attempted to bring in good players. TMac, Hill, Ben Wallace, the attempts were there. Just because it didn’t work out, doesn’t mean he hasn’t tried to bring in players. Who would you have wanted them to bring in this year? It would have just ruined them long term.
by Grinder in Training on Mar 30, 2010 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions
I would have traded Brad Miller for Jared Jeffries, Jordan Hill, and a first
I guess we can’t all be Morey though …
Go Rockets/Nets[CDR]/Bucks[Jennings]!
20 million expiring>12 million expiring.
by Ozzie Montana on Mar 30, 2010 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions
Not when New York didn't get 8 million of it anyways,
they would’ve actually saved money [by paying less of the prorated amount … 12<20, as you said] and all they cleared in space was Jeffries and Hill, who are just over 10 million.
Maybe Walsh thinks that McGrady’s gonna be really awesome after he recovers too? Who knows.
Go Rockets/Nets[CDR]/Bucks[Jennings]!
'attempted, but just didn't work out'
ok, but the results are worth something, right?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 30, 2010 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions
The results are obviously worth something
You could say they are bad at it, that’d be fine. His implication they don’t want to spend money though is ridiculous. There was no one I saw worth spending money on this offseason.
It’s fine to say they’ve failed repeatedly and aren’t good at their jobs, but this idea they don’t want to win or aren’t trying to bring in good players is just stupid.
by Grinder in Training on Mar 30, 2010 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions
you gotta love how the only way to mitigate assertions of their cheapness
is to counter-assert their incompetence.
"Oooohhh, cat in the wall, eh? Now you're talkin' my language."
I think they do, though not up to the point I'd like
which means they don’t spend their way out of those mistakes, though they have the ability to do so.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 30, 2010 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Spend their way out of it?
This sounds so easy.. outside of possibly Gasol, how many opportunities were there to get guys that would have won us a championship that we didn’t get solely b/c of money? Are there any? This isn’t baseball.. it’s not like he could spend more, buy a bunch of superstars and is just choosing not to. Where would us paying the luxury tax have won us anything?
The fact is if we spent the money it wouldn’t have won us a championship, so what’s the point? I don’t understand the logic here. Where are these opportunities we’ve had to win championship’s, that we’ve missed because of financial issues? The point is to win it all. Spending more would not have done that, so why would he?
by Grinder in Training on Mar 30, 2010 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions
Hard to speculate
maybe they get Amare in the past two years if they’re willing to take back more 1-year money (i.e., go into the tax). No, I can’t say I “know” that the tax kept them from this move (and Gasol is a pretty big whiff, no?), but they’ve said they won’t pay the tax until they’re a winner, and they haven’t paid the tax once since it was introduced. So I’ll guess it matters to them even in considering their winning strategy.
A more practical example of how they could’ve leveraged themselves better financially is at this past deadline. If they were willing to go into the tax, maybe they work out a deal where they move long-term money (i.e. Hinrich) and take back more short-term money. Could’ve accepted a player making 125% of what Hinrich made, plus they had a couple trade exceptions to take back more players. They’d have to waive a couple guaranteed contracts too. It’d cost money. But if that put them in a better position for 2010 it’s not just ‘spending to spend’.
Your championship standard is crap. It’s nearly impossible to win one, but it doesn’t mean you don’t try due to those long odds. You can just as easily say what’s the point in not spending the money? I don’t care how much money his investors make.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 30, 2010 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions
My standard is this
To be in contention for a championship, it’s just easier to type “a championship”. I don’t see any moves to become that, that were stopped because of finances.
I have no proof that we didn’t move Hinrich b/c of the luxury tax. We could have moved him for expirings w/o luxury tax issues from what we’ve all read, so clearly finances weren’t the explanation there.
Gasol is a whiff, yes, but do we have proof that it was financial reasons that led him to going to the Lakers over us? I don’t really believe that was the problem, do you? I don’t have interest in being good. I have interesting in contending for a championship. I’ve never seen a potential move that we turned down that could have made us a contender that was because of financial reasons.
I saw him spend money with Jordan, I’ve seen him spend money with the White Sox when they had a chance at a championship. Until I see proof that it’s finances that have lost us a chance at a championship I don’t really care what he does. I don’t have an interest in spending money to just be better because I could care less about the difference between being the 5th best and 8th best team in the East. Either way we’d have basically zero chance at a championship.
This isn’t the NFL or MLB where teams just rise up and win even though they aren’t necessarily the best team in the league, it’s always one of the elite few teams in the league that wins and they have a superstar. Finances are not what has held us back from becoming that.
by Grinder in Training on Mar 30, 2010 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions
like I said, I can't prove it
you can’t prove it hasn’t happened either. so we’re sort of stuck on that point. You’ll likely never see proof of the negative, so your opinion is pretty set and infallible. I guess that’s good. I wouldn’t bring the WhiteSox (or the Jordan-Bulls, which is as about as hard to duplicate as it gets) into this though.
We do know what was said by them about the tax (as in: it matters), and the fact that they’ve never paid it.
Heck, how about immediately dealing Tyson Chandler for expirings (that….expired) when they signed Ben Wallace?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 30, 2010 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions
Obviously a terrible basketball move.
I hated it from the start, as a Chandler fan (probably wrongly, as he really isn’t that great, but he was my favorite Bull while he was here) and JR Smith fan, who doesn’t like athletic wings? I was completely disgusted with Paxson.
I’d like to separate the fact that I think Paxson is a complete failure as a GM, and horrible at making trades from my opinion that JR’s cheapness is not the reason we are bad. I think we are / have been bad, because we have made disastrous basketball moves. I do not believe spending into the luxury tax would have fixed this. I only bring the Sox and Jordan into this because these are the only examples we have of JR being in a position to win a championship, and in both cases, money has been spent.
Isn’t the fact that we paid Wallace a ton of money instead of just keeping Chandler proof that it’s not cheapness but stupidity that has ruined this franchise?
by Grinder in Training on Mar 30, 2010 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions
There's a difference in cheapness and just plain meddling.
We have no idea where Reinsdorf’s influence begins and ends. I remember all the JR quotes back during the Wallace signing about how they needed a “veteran/pro/champion” to lead the young squad.
I just don’t get him. He claims to be hands-off, but anytime you hear Reinsdorf discuss basketball, I feel like his fingerprints are on this team. Gar Paxson may be incompetent, but if they’re just vessels for Jerry not much can be done.
by Ozzie Montana on Mar 30, 2010 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions
That's fine
If you think Reinsdorf is the idiot, so be it, but none the less, he’s an idiot then, not cheap. Whoever is in charge of the Bulls, has been bad at running a basketball team. I don’t think though it has anything to do with being cheap.
It doesn’t change my opinion that we are bad b/c of bad decisions, not because of cheap decisions. Regardless who made them.
by Grinder in Training on Mar 30, 2010 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions
he's selectively cheap
he’s not Michael Heisley or anything.
Why is this such a big difference to you what names we call Reinsdorf? I agree with your initial response to Jermal, the whole “he won’t spend and doesn’t care” argument is hyperbole. But to actively defend ‘dorf for not spending the money since it wouldn’t have mattered, I don’t get it.
Here’s another notch in the ‘cheap’ belt: Head Coach Vinny Del Negro
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 30, 2010 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions
the thing is
i question how much paxson and gar are just vessels for Reinsdorf. Because under Krause, the Bulls ran much differently in regards to the trades they were willing to make and the players they liked to draft. The Bulls were much more swing for the fences or strike-out under Krause. They didn’t make safe choices. If JR had had a problem with it, I didn’t notice.
by Basketball Smurf on Mar 30, 2010 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions
well 2010 is that kind of move
I think the key was always that even if they strike out, at least they do so with little expense.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 30, 2010 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions
That's brand loyalty.
Look at how the GMs are replaced. Krause wasn’t outright fired, he “resigned” and franchise favorite Paxson took over after remaining with the org. Forman is now in charge, yet Pax is still “with the organization” doing whatever the fuck.
Same thing will happen with Ozzie. Guy got the precious WS for Jerry, so the guy is made of Teflon.
by Ozzie Montana on Mar 30, 2010 2:32 PM CDT up reply actions
he's already professed the love to JR on multiple occasions
Reinsdorf is good, no doubting that. He values loyalty, and his employees show it tremendously. It matters more than performance, which is my problem. But hey, he’s also the best owner in Chicago sports history. I just wish he wasn’t a meddlesome turd when it came to contract time.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 30, 2010 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions
Best Owner in Chicago Sports History?
That would prolly be George Halas.
by Kyle From Chicago on Mar 30, 2010 7:00 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
ok, non-ancient history
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 31, 2010 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions
after letting him break up the dynast
and spend 5 years managing one of the worst teams in the NBA, Krause RETIRED from the Bulls. JR didn’t fire him. JR showed Krause more loyalty than anyone not named Jordan from about 1988 to 2003.
by Basketball Smurf on Mar 30, 2010 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions
I'd argue he showed Krause more loyalty than anyone from about 1988 to 2003.
Possibly, he showed more loyalty to anyone than anyone has ever been shown before or since. In the entire history of mankind.
My point is that Reinsdorf might have learned some lessons from that experience, and therefore keeps a tighter reign on his loyal supplicants.
Even if there was a problem.
Krause resigned on his own accord at a press conference. If Reinsdorf really disliked him, Krause would have been fired on Passover.
by Ozzie Montana on Mar 30, 2010 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions
never said they were bad because Reinsdorf is cheap
just that they have the opportunity to strategically spend more, and chose (agreed, this is NOT PROVEN) not to do so.
They’re also bad because they’re dumb.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 30, 2010 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions
why do you think that Chandler move wasn't financial?
You think it was just coincidence that Chandler had 5 years left on his contract while PJ Brown had 1? Or was it just a burning desire to get a player 10 years older?
J.R. Smith being swapped out was indeed a Paxson/Skiles basketball move, as they used the savings to sign Adrian Griffin. As I said, if you want to deflect from ‘dorf bashing to move on to Pax-bashing, I think there’s a pretty big facefull of blame pie for both to eat.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 30, 2010 2:34 PM CDT up reply actions
I think
They got Wallace to replace Chandler, not to play with him. So PJ Brown was just a means to an end of getting rid of Chandler once they had the better version of Chandler (in their opinion, not mine by any means).
by Grinder in Training on Mar 30, 2010 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Again, because he cost less.
The Bobcats have five versions of Chandler. Just because you get someone similar doesn’t mean you can’t play them together. Chandler wasn’t a constant starter anyway.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
If cost was the issue
Why not just keep Chandler instead of Ben Wallace stay in Detroit??
by Grinder in Training on Mar 30, 2010 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions
because ben Wallace cost less.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
That's patently false.
Wallace’s deal was 4 years $60 million. Chandler got 6 years $63 million. Take out the first year of Chandler’s deal with was already done at the time, and Chandler had less money owed.
Brad Miller is god.
by Poloplaya14 on Mar 30, 2010 3:07 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
I agree (and did so at the time) that Wallace and Chandler duplicated too much
but why trade him for an expiring contract? because it was expiring.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 30, 2010 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions
They signed Wallace
It’s not like they only got rid of their long term contract for an expiring.
They added a more expensive long term contract and got rid of a cheaper long term contract. Financially it wasn’t a win there for the Bulls.
by Grinder in Training on Mar 30, 2010 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions
chandler was the more expensive contract
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
no, not per year
over the life of the contract
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Per year
Is the only way to compare two long term deals. It doesn’t make sense otherwise.
by Grinder in Training on Mar 30, 2010 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes it does.
Even if they didn’t trade Wallace, this would have been his last season under contract. Chandler still has an option for next year. If they wanted to partake in the 2010 fun, Tyson would have to go since he could just opt-in.
by Ozzie Montana on Mar 30, 2010 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions
The 2010 fun
Was not an issue at the time of the trade. At the time the Bulls signed Ben Wallace they thought they were playing for a championship, not for tanking to get a 2010 free agent.
It does not make sense to look at the whole number. As a financial analyst I feel this is one issue I am sure I am right on. You can say I’m wrong about Reinsdorf being cheap, but this issue I am sure I am correct.
You are not comparing apples to apples anymore if you don’t look at it year to year. Ben Wallace cost more.
by Grinder in Training on Mar 30, 2010 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions
So...
Having 12 players under 6-year $65 million contracts isn’t as bad as having 12 players under 3 -year, $13 million contracts?
Not in the NBA it’s not.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
So you're suggesting that the Bulls signed Wallace and traded Chandler to set up for 2010?
If so, that’s ridiculously good foresight.
I just think they believed Wallace would be better, which was just wrong.
Brad Miller is god.
by Poloplaya14 on Mar 30, 2010 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I hate agreeing with you.
But I agree with you.
Go Rockets/Nets[CDR]/Bucks[Jennings]!
they didn't have to trade for an expiring is the point
they could have committed more money long term. When they traded for the PJ Brown contract, I think many Bulls fans believed they were going to use that deal to acquire someone. Instead, the Bulls let him expire and that money just came off the books. I think that is the problem people had with the trade.
by Basketball Smurf on Mar 30, 2010 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Agreed.
Again, I don’t think the Bulls have made any good basketball moves. It’s been disastrous. Just.. awful.
I just don’t think we are bad because of our cheapness which is what the original poster complained about. I think our front office is an embarrasment and the decision making is atrocious.
by Grinder in Training on Mar 30, 2010 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions
but don't you think that was a move motivated
by finances? I don’t think the basketball people said to trade Chandler for PJ Brown. It was a financial move, that was sold as a basketball move, but in reality was just a financial move.
by Basketball Smurf on Mar 30, 2010 3:07 PM CDT up reply actions
No.
I think if they were motivated by finances they keep Chandler at a lower cost per year than Ben Wallace.
by Grinder in Training on Mar 30, 2010 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions
so they can't have duel goals
they can’t want Ben Wallace because he is the better player, but also want PJ Brown over Chandler, despite Chandler being better, because PJ Brown will cost less in the future? I think the Bulls were trying to compete on the cheap that season and it burned them.
Its not like PJ and Chandler are radically different players. And its not like they thought they had too many shot blockers – they went and drafted Tyrus.
by Basketball Smurf on Mar 30, 2010 3:12 PM CDT up reply actions
I just don't buy it.
It’s the whole “too many good players is bad” argument, in my opinion. Nothing kept them from having both of those players on the roster other than finances.
A) They drafted a raw project that they should have expected to take until at least year 4 to be really dominant.
B) They signed a player they knew was going to decline to a short, 4-year deal.
C) They had a player under contract for another 5 years that was under 25.
D) That gave them a total of two capable PF/C with “size”. Three if you count Nocioni.
E) The player they traded for was not radically different than the player they traded away.
In my eyes, there are three legitimate reasons to trade away Chandler:
A) Skiles didn’t like him.
B) They could get an expiring contract for a chance to trade it to get someone better.
C) They could save a crap-ton of money by shedding Chandler for Brown.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Well unless you believe the plan was to package Brown's expiring contract for a low-post scorer
I think that might’ve been the idea, but even if it was, they fell through on that. That’s their biggest failure, i think, not being able to ship Brown’s deal for a scoring big man.
Brad Miller is god.
Then that also speaks to refusing to get into tax territory.
Paying Gasol and Wallace at the same time while extending Hinrich and Nocioni? That’s definitely tax territory.
by Ozzie Montana on Mar 30, 2010 3:16 PM CDT up reply actions
Well I think they were prepared to go into the tax if the Bulls had kept improving and become a contender
But that Deng, Hinrich, and Gordon plateaued and Wallace’s wheels fell off, and of course we never got that low-post scorer. Nocioni’s extension, IMO, is evidence that JR was prepared to pay the tax to keep the roster stocked enough to contend.
Brad Miller is god.
...........
but they artificially stopped them from improving because they refused to trade Brown/Chandler for the type of player they needed. Once the team started to go south, they didn’t have to blow it up. They could have made the Gasol trade….
That is why arguing with you organization fanboys is so hard. You guys have an excuse for every dollar saved. Oh no, we almost had to pay the tax for a 50 win team. Good one Gar!
by Basketball Smurf on Mar 30, 2010 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm not a fanboy
I think the organization has been run horribly. I just don’t think it JR’s tight wallet that’s the problem.
by Grinder in Training on Mar 30, 2010 3:25 PM CDT up reply actions
it's one of the problems
there can be multiple problems. LOTS of losing to account for.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 30, 2010 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree about the Gasol trade.
It was a big failure. In fact, it’s the only thing I’m really tremendously pissed at Paxson about. But it wasn’t $ that stopped them from making that move. It was the Bulls undervaluing Gasol and overvaluing Gordon and Deng. I remember a Paxson quote saying specifically that they passed on Gasol because he was “only an 18-8 player” or something like that.
Brad Miller is god.
What Gasol trade could they have made?
I am so sick of hearing the bullshit that there was a Gasol deal on the table that could have been made…
Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.
by Dionysus2.0 on Mar 30, 2010 10:28 PM CDT up reply actions
they could have traded Deng for Gasol
during 06-07 (source: http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/3363/the-war-in-john-paxson-s-mind)
or they could have made an offer better than the lakers, as the Grizzlies owner flat-out said -
Heisley didn’t offer up those names, but insisted, "Chicago wouldn’t offer us any of their good, core players," he said. "Our people told me that we weren’t able to get equal trade value for Gasol and that we needed to do a deal that would give us cap space and draft picks. It was no secret in the league that we were considering offers for him, but the Lakers were the one team that stepped up."
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-heisleygasol060308&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
The Bulls also had cap space and draft picks to offer. Somehow, they didn’t. The NBA is a competition – sometimes you have to win the deal.
by Basketball Smurf on Mar 30, 2010 11:13 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't even buy that they had to give up Deng to get Gasol
Given what the Lakers got him for, you gotta believe that some combination of Gordon, TT, PJ Brown’s expiring deal, and the draft pick that would become Noah would’ve gotten it done.
Brad Miller is god.
by Poloplaya14 on Mar 30, 2010 11:45 PM CDT up reply actions
i agree
i was just stating what the first link said.
by Basketball Smurf on Mar 31, 2010 12:22 AM CDT up reply actions
PJ's wasn't expiring then
Gasol was available the year before, and reportedly the Bulls balked at PJ + Deng + Gordon. Now, given that they ran Gordon out of town and Deng is called a wimp everywhere, maybe that isn’t so bad now, but I wouldn’t have done that deal then.
The year after Pau was available for even less (thus what he wound up being traded for), and while PJ Brown was no longer under contract, they could’ve signed him using bird rights as part of a trade package (a la what the Mavs did with Keith Van Horn). But that was a major one-season expense, thus…luxury tax.
Plus, Pau was one of those ‘overpaid and not a WINNER’ guys that Bulls fans seem to love talking about how they don’t want to pay for, while watching a bunch of non-winners nightly.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 31, 2010 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions
Well according to the article Smurf posted, the Bulls still made an offer, which may or may not have included a resigned Brown
But the article indicates the problem was that they refused to include Gordon or Deng.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-heisleygasol060308&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
Brad Miller is god.
Your turn to be wrong (as I was earlier).
The trade for Gasol “didn’t” happen in 2006-07, the best year’s of Deng, Hinrich and Gordon’s career. They hadn’t plateaued yet, and neither had Wallace fallen off the cliff.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
yea it wasnt the wallace signing and chandler trading that made it a financial move
it was what they got for chandler and what they did with player (let him expire) which is what made it a financial move….the bulls said they wanted veteran leadership or something, but there were better veteran leaders out there who were just better that they couldve traded for, except it probably wouldve been more costly…..
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
ok, but why did it have to be one-to-one?
they were way under the cap enough to sign Wallace. Why not trade Chandler for a better player on a longer contract?
I think we’re just butting heads over what ‘cheap’ is. I agree it’s inherently not ‘cheap’ to spend millions on a basketball team. But Chandler was a salary dump to accommodate signing Wallace, and it didn’t have to be.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 30, 2010 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions
What they could have done....
…draft Roy, keep chandler. ultimate 3-gauard lineup with rebounders.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Then signed Al Harrington with cap space...
To a cheaper deal, to be a that stretch four…
Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.
by Dionysus2.0 on Mar 30, 2010 10:30 PM CDT up reply actions
another evidence of the tax mattering
right after winning the lottery, Paxson says that the #1 draft slot (as opposed to #10) will put them closer to the tax than they imagined.
It caused them to make a single hard offer (basically, what was ‘left’) to Gordon. That there was an offer in the first place means that the ‘basketball people’ wanted him back. They couldn’t offer more due to this self-imposed limit. That’s being selectively cheap and hampering the ‘basketball’ decisions. If Reinsdorf comes in and says “i know I don’t want you guys to spend into the tax threshold, but this lottery win is a good thing even if it increases the payroll, so I’d to into the tax if you think it’s the right move for basketball reasons”
Not proof yet? not really, I agree. But I don’t understand your certainty in the other camp just because the unprovable (a tell-all from Paxson in 20 years?) hasn’t been made. And can’t you see part of his ‘success’ that you’ve lauded over his business acumen may mean that sometimes he errs on the side of profits over basketball because he is indeed that damned good?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 30, 2010 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
It's not stupid......
It’s laughable how a team trying to win would have a coach who never coached before on any stage as a head coach of his pro franchise! No owner who values winning would do such! Thus, why we are blogging about the Bulls front office and their motives as we speak.
We haven't been trying to win though.
He’ll be gone now that we are.
by Grinder in Training on Mar 30, 2010 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions
Ben Wallace = Tyson Chandler
They just traded a player people didn’t like for one they didn’t know… and then didn’t like.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
I agree but he's going to have to put out there a winning team
soon or you lose your fanbase. I think he knows that. He’ll have to pay soon and then in five years they’ll blow it up again to save money. You will see players not resigned or not signed that will leave you confused but they will do it to save money.
"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."
- fundamentallysound
In this town?
He’s not losing his fan base. Look at the Cubs or Bears. Especially now that they have Derrick Rose. He’s spent money when it made sense. He’s not going to waste money to be average though, and I applaud that. There is no reason to. Save it until you have a chance to be great then you go out and the spend the money.
by Grinder in Training on Mar 30, 2010 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions
So... now Bosh, James, Wade, don't spend it?
Then max out Rose, give Noah money… and… don’t spend money for another five years?
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
No, of course you spend it
But not because he’s afraid of losing the fan base. Because with one of those guys you are a championship contender and that’s what owning a sports team is all about.
by Grinder in Training on Mar 30, 2010 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions
if you're going to be average anyway
why ‘applaud’ if they don’t waste money to do so? are you an investor? Or Arn Tellem?
I agree with not ‘wasting’ the money, but your definition of ‘when it makes sense’ seems pretty rigid and suspiciously in line with whatever the Bulls have done.
Obviously we’ll see. But NOT at this offseason. That’s just spending cap money. It’s what’s done afterwards that will prove the difference. I’m giddy if they sign Joe Johnson to the max if they’re going to keep spending to round out the team. If they sign Joe Johnson to the max, and get around 45-50 wins, and say they haven’t met the Grinder contending standard so it’s not worth spending more, then I won’t be applauding the shrewdness.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 30, 2010 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Maybe it's suspiciously in line
Because JR is very good in business and knows what he’s doing?
I agree Joe Johnson would great. I’d be happy with any of these big names.
They have Derrick Rose now, they have a corner stone. Now there is reason to spend money. There is a potential champion here now. You pair Rose with another star, and pay for a bunch of good roleplayers and I believe this team does have a chance. Maybe not a good one, but a chance and once you have that, you go nuts with spending.
If he doesn’t spend going forward then you’ll be right. It won’t take long to find out who is correct. By the end of next year I imagine we’ll have a pretty good idea.
by Grinder in Training on Mar 30, 2010 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions
right, being good in business is better than being good in basketball operations.
I agree that Reinsdorf knows what he’s doing in terms of maximizing profits. He might also know what it takes to win basketball championships, but I don’t think that’s his main goal.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
1991,1992,1993,1996,1997,1998?
I’m pretty sure they won. He may have cared.
Luol Deng 24 going on 54.
Yeah but Jordan was the GM.
I mean, MJ put those teams together and paid for them out of pocket right?
by Ozzie Montana on Mar 30, 2010 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions
Well, if they don't spend this summer, under whatever excuse, they're going to lose sales.
They’ve spent a fair amount of time selling this plan already. So it’s sort of too late to pull out now. In some ways, i think the Bulls are over-committed. The smart thing to do might be to not spend if Lebron, Bosh, etc are off the board and their remaining alternative is to commit a bunch of money to a soon to be declining player.
In reality, the argument gets turned on its head. Because Reinsdorf cares more about making money than winning, he’ll go for the big splash to the declining player. This will sell more hope, and thus more tickets over the next couple years. On the other hand, if they save money and sign no one, fans will be pissed and stop coming. In the long-run, saving the money would promote winning. You could lock in another player at a reasonable price, buy a couple draft picks, whatever. Then make a big push down the road. Spending the money on, say, Joe Johnson guarantees you a couple years of above mediocrity, but you end up locked into a shit sandwich in the long run.
it's been a successful strategy
I think of myself as a pretty knowledgeable fan, but I’m also a beaten down (partial) season ticket holder: They have to spend it, I don’t care if it’s not the right thing to do long-term. I’d be happy to watch the team just by virtue of them being better.
And I don’t even think that’s an evil Reinsdorf plan. As secure as being in the inner circle can be, you’d have to think Gar would have trouble keeping his job if he doesn’t land any high-priced free agent.
You’re right that Joe Johnson embodies the selling of hope, not real hope. Though spending on Joe Johnson isn’t crippling if it’s just the first of many (increasing payroll) moves.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 30, 2010 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions
Heh, I agree it's successful and I don't think it's evil. Just not good for winning in the long run
The Bulls will need, somehow, to get a younger/better player than Johnson because this move won’t be the first of money payroll increasing moves. The Bulls will basically have three payroll increasing moves before they get to an unsustainable position.
1. Free agent this year
2. New deal for Rose
3. New deal for Noah
After that, the Bulls are going to have to be pretty creative just to fill out a decent roster.
So the question is who you want that free agent to be? I want it to be a guy who’s going to be an ass-kicking, capable player through the length of his contract here. Anything else will indeed be crippling.
"ass-kicking, capable player"
But we already have James Johnson! Oh, you said capable.
Brad Miller is god.
by Poloplaya14 on Mar 30, 2010 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
They will have full MLE to offer..
On guys of the caliber of Artest, Ariza, Rasheed, Gortat, etc…you can get capable players for MLE….
Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.
by Dionysus2.0 on Mar 30, 2010 10:32 PM CDT up reply actions
Totally agree
A team like the Bulls should absolutely add Bosh. I should have included it in the article itself, but here’s what i put in the comments:
“One thing I probably should have made clearer is that none of this applies to a handful of NBA teams—Lakers, Celtics, Bulls (if they ever spend), Knicks, and a few others. The Lakers didn’t even blink before giving Odom and Gasol much bigger contracts than deserved. Some of this is detailed ”http://www.sbnation.com/2010/1/8/1240573/is-basketball-becoming-baseball" target="new">here.
But if you’re not one of the NBA’s "chosen few," I think the decisions are much tougher as far as who’s deserving of the max, and who’s Joe Johnson."
My argument is that Chris Bosh is more Joe Johnson than someone that can carry a franchise, and I still think that’s true. But for Chicago, they don’t need him to carry the franchise.
He’d be great paired with Derrick Rose—as I said in the article—if the Chicago owners actually man up and spend some of the money they’ve been making off this team for the past decade. Other teams should be more cautious—I’d be really bummed if the Wizards try to go after Bosh—but Chicago should absolutely try to overpay him and pair him with Rose.
by Andrew Sharp on Mar 30, 2010 10:56 AM CDT reply actions 2 recs
he's a way better investment than Joe Johnson
Joe Johnson was never as good as Bosh in the first place, and players his age/production have aged awfully.
Why wouldn’t you want the Wiz to get Bosh? You have Bosh+Arenas, you nail the draft and that’s a great start.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 30, 2010 10:58 AM CDT up reply actions
You're doing Bosh a disservice by comparing him to Joe Johnson.
He’s comparable in effectiveness to Amare Stoudemire. While both may not actually “deserve” a max contract, adding either player to a young team with Rose, Noah, Deng makes them a dangerous team for a 3-4 year run.
by Ozzie Montana on Mar 30, 2010 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions
3-4 year run?
I’d say it would be closer to a 6-8 year run
Thrusting out of the playoff race, one injury at a time.
NBA teams are far too interchangeable these days to predict that kind of run.
by Ozzie Montana on Mar 30, 2010 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions
And we have JR, so there's no guarantee like with a Mark Cuban that the supporting cast is continually replenished.
Or better upgrades are found.
by Ozzie Montana on Mar 30, 2010 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah..
Because we never replenished the supporting cast the last time we were good for 6 – 8 years. I guess I just imagined Rodman, Harper and Kukoc.
by Grinder in Training on Mar 30, 2010 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions
Salaries have increased tenfold since then.
I’ve never taken Reinsdorf’s past accomplishments from him. But, he’s yet to pay the luxury tax, and until he does I’m not going to believe that he’s going to engage in the rebuilding scenarios that the Lakers/Mavs/Celtics/Spurs have done in past years.
by Ozzie Montana on Mar 30, 2010 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions
Here's what I don't get about your argument
Basically, you’re making the claim that the tag “franchise player” only applies to about 5 or 6 players in the league. I mean, if you don’t think Deron Williams and Brandon Roy or franchise guys, your criteria are pretty exclusive. You also imply that you can’t win titles with guys like Williams and Roy (“They’re both good and you can win with ’em. But can you win a title with ’em?”). Let’s assume for a minute you can’t win a title with those guys. Well then what the hell is a team like Washington supposed to do? You’re suggesting that they don’t give a max contract to anyone but Wade/Bron/Kobe. Are they supposed to wait around and pray for a Wade/Bron/Kobe? You could get a high lottery picks 10 years in a row and fail to get a superstar (as the Bulls have proven). the way I see it, for a team like Washington, signing Bosh is a much better option than “let’s twiddle our thumbs until we draft the next LeBron James.”
Brad Miller is god.
by Poloplaya14 on Mar 30, 2010 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions 5 recs
It's funny. What you've countered is exactly what GiT is suggesting.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
some good points...and the same things that many of us have noticed..
this reminds me of some commentary i read on the MIT sloan conference….namely when the panel was asked whether a team needs “A Big Three” like Boston has to win a championship. Hollinger then shot holes through that notion.
“Superstars” will obviously help in winning championships…but that doesnt mean that a team needs to have one, or multiple superstars to win a championship.
And just so we’re clear – chris bosh is 7th in PER, just behind multiple title-winner duncan. bosh is good.
You're still missing the point that superstars are grossly underpaid
yfbb is right that LeBron could be worth $30 mil. Hollinger’s EWA has LeBron routinely adding 30+ wins to his team each year. Figure the average NBA payroll is around $60ish million and the average team wins 41 games. Do the math and LeBron could be worth even more than $30 mil. (According to that same math, Bosh is worth around $23 mil).
Putting Bosh in the same category as Amare and JJ is (1) completely throwing out the injury risk of the other two, which is the very reason why the horrible contracts you mentioned in your post (Redd, Jermaine, TMac) are horrible, and (2) ignoring the possibility that non-superstar stars are to fairly paid at $15+ mil per year.
by YaoPau on Mar 30, 2010 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
Good points
I just want to chime in that from most fans’ perspectives, most players seems to be overpaid. It seems ludicrous to think that a player making $16.5 million could be underpaid, but in terms of how much value guys like LeBron bring to a franchise, they’re grossly underpaid. This applies to lower level guys too. A lot of people seem to thing Luol Deng is grossly overpaid, making $10 million this year, but when you compare him to most guys making $8-9 million a year(Jose Calderon, Andris Biedrins, Corey Maggette), he seems to be worth it. And when you compare those guys to the guys making $5-6 million (MLE guys like Beno Udrih, Rasheed Wallace), they seem worth it. And when you compare those guys to the guys making $3-4 million (Hakim Warrick), they seem worth it. And not to sound like a broken record, but when you compare those guys to the guy making the minimum or close to it (Pargo), they seem worth it.
Basically, I feel like most fans tend to view everyone in the NBA as overpaid, since after all, they get millions of dollars to play a game, but when you look at their salaries compared to each other’s salaries, most guy’s contracts aren’t as bad as you think
Brad Miller is god.
by Poloplaya14 on Mar 30, 2010 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
By the way, I tried not to just cherry pick names
I tried to find guys at about the median talent level for each salary level, rather than going with extremely good or bad value players (Devin Harris vs. Kenny Thomas at the 8-9 million level). Except Pargo. He’s pretty bad even for players at his salary level.
Brad Miller is god.
by Poloplaya14 on Mar 30, 2010 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions
good points
"Michael Redd's owed 18.3 million next year. He can either opt out like an idiot or opt in like a douche bag." - NittanyCub
i dont understand how they're going to overpay him??
if he’s worth max money or darn near close to it……how are they even overpaying him?
this idea that we would be overpaying bosh has been said a ton – and i really dont get it
i totally agree with the post ( this may be the very first time i can actually say this yfbb)
i really would like bosh on the bulls (Lebron is the ONLY better FA this summer). and besides, i feel like it doesnt matter who can get the best record with a garbage team (the wade vs bosh argument) because this will not be a garbage team. what matters is who can win the most with rose and noah on their team, and that is definitely bosh IMO. and thats before you even consider their injury history……
Practice beats talent when talent doesn't practice.
I would want Lebron first over anybody else
I would like to see the bulls make an attempt on trying to sign him, but we all know he’s not coming to the bulls to rebuild.
Lebron on this team...
is not ‘rebuilding’. Lebron on this team is ‘Rebuilt’, and is already a title contender.
"The people we lost, I'm sad we lost them because they helped us. But the organization saw something in these players. They're going to help us. They don't have any attitude problems. They just want to ball." - Derrick Rose
Right.
Bosh on the Bulls next year means: one or two tweaks and improvements by Rose and Noah over the next year (2010 to 2011-2012) and they’ll be a contender.
James on this team means: the team is a contender in 2010-2011.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
considering he's had one of the best two year stretches EVER
umm yes i would agree with that.
If you make somebody your second choice.
They probably won’t feel the love. You have to make Bosh the first choice in order to sign him. In the lucky circumstance that Chicago will be Bosh’s first choice, it won’t be his first choice after the Bulls wait a week to offer him a contract while getting embarrassed by LeBron.
Bosh or Bust
by JockstrapNoah on Mar 30, 2010 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions
Bosh is everybody's second choice behind LeBron
He’s not gonna pout and sign with nobody.
Brad Miller is god.
by Poloplaya14 on Mar 30, 2010 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
lol agreed
i’m pretty sure he knows lebron is better than him
Practice beats talent when talent doesn't practice.
by iamsasquatch on Mar 30, 2010 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Its not about the players
pecking order, I’m sure they have that all figured out. Its about signing Bosh against the competitors. The Bulls must make it clear to Bosh that he’s the #1 priority. The Bulls aren’t the only team coveting Bosh (if they are and they should), and the Bulls aren’t the only team Bosh will consider.
Bosh or Bust
by JockstrapNoah on Mar 30, 2010 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions
i'm pretty sure he will not be upset because he wants to win
``The money is going to be the same, no matter where I go,‘’ Bosh said. ``It’s about winning. I’m finishing my seventh year. Contending for a championship is all I want. I never made it past the first round. I just want to be a contender.’’
http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/03/29/1552878/bosh-on-free-agency-its-all-about.html#ixzz0jZAyQNTq
Practice beats talent when talent doesn't practice.
by iamsasquatch on Mar 30, 2010 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions
Unless all the other teams go after LBJ, too.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
i agree jock
why waste time courting Lebron? Go straight after Bosh. Make him the #1 priority. Tell him how much you want him to come and how much he fits. I think people are underestimating the sales job the front office is going to have to do. Its not just a analytical process, there will be some emotion behind the pick too. The Bulls have to make Bosh feel wanted and they have to show him they have a plan to win. If those 2 things happen, I could see Bosh signing in Chicago.
by Basketball Smurf on Mar 30, 2010 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
or you could offer the deals to both lebron and bosh on july 1st
and since they cant actually be signed until july 8th, you would have a week to see if there’s any real interest from lebron. if there isnt, then focus all your energy on bosh.
Practice beats talent when talent doesn't practice.
by iamsasquatch on Mar 30, 2010 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions
I think if they even have a sliver of a chance of LeBron, it's not a waste of time
they should know even before 7/1 if they have no shot at all.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 30, 2010 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't think they have a sliver of a chance
its hard to argue the Bulls will have a better chance of winning next season than the Cavs. I guess if he is so enamored with Rose that he sees a partnership that will be fruitful for 5 or 6 years down the line … but I just don’t see him thinking that long term in regards to basketball.
If its all about winning, I think he stays in Cleveland. If its about fame/money/global icon, he goes to NY.
by Basketball Smurf on Mar 30, 2010 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree
and if that’s found out to be true, then you’re right they shouldn’t bother. But I could also see LeBron convincing himself he needs to look around and be wooed for a few weeks, and even if that’s fruitless the Bulls should play along with his game.
This is why this whole plan was very very risky to begin with, but that’s the plan.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 30, 2010 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions
my concern with that is
if they play the lebron game for too long, some other team will be like, heh u guys do that and well just go ahead and woo bosh….chances are if bosh isnt getting much attention from other teams (cuz they are playing the woo game with lebron and wade) then bosh might just sign with another team quickly, and then a few weeks later new york snatches up wade and lebron at once….and we get joe johnson, and the organization says “bosh didnt give us a chance, lebron didnt give us a chance to counter the offer…its not our fault we suck!”
if the bulls just went outright and just pursued bosh i wouldnt mind, cuz while there may be a sliver of hope we get lebron, theres a freakin pile of hope for bosh, and though lebron>>>bosh, bosh >>>>>anyone else left (except arguably wade) and id be fine with spending money on bosh…
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
My concern is that any strategic wooing plan
will go as well as the coaching search. Granted they did a good job with the Paxson/Skiles jeans brigade to woo Ben Wallace, but turns out he was sandbagging us, and for all we know ’Dorf and Arn Tellem figured that deal before any formal wooing could begin.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 30, 2010 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions
(tried to set 'woo'rld record there)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 30, 2010 2:45 PM CDT up reply actions
Thats what im saying
a guy like lebron is bound to beat around the bush, cuz he knows that hes the kind of player that can impact any team immediately in every way, a guy like bosh wants to win but doesnt have the same kind of impact (no one should interpret this as me saying bosh isnt good or deserving a maxcontract), what did the bulls do with d’antoni, they let the media spread flames, they decided to have multiple meetings with d’antoni and publically stated that they were exploring several options aside from d’antoni, they kept beating around the bush waiting for d’antoni to take a lower offer, and they ended up waking up to d’antoni signing with new york…
I dont want to see another negotation like that….
I want them to walk straight up to bosh on the first day and say, “we want u on our team, we want u to be our number one player with rose, we will give u the max, were willing to sign right now!” after they do that they can throw feelers out to lebron, but i want them to make it public knowledge that they are pursuing bosh harder than everyone else…make bosh feel special and use the chicago media and market (which happens to be what the 3rd largest) to fan these flames, bulls fans will follow and that uproar could land bosh…
playing any sort of financial game, only would complicate things and i dont trust the negotation ability of this organization….ben gordon, d’antoni, tmac…..
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
I see your point
but man, if they go through all this trouble to get this far under the cap, and then not go after LeBron? I’m not sure I like that.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 30, 2010 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions
There's a pretty good chance
that us fans will never even know if they attempted to woo Lebron. Sure they could come out and say that they gave it a shot whether they actually did or did not will be up to us to believe them (kinda like the Pau Gasol non deal etc.). All this stuff will probably go down rather quickly considering there will really be know contract discussions (max, duh!)and it will probably all be behind closed door kinda shit with LeBrons agent giving the word one way or another.
Neil takes the fun out of funk
by Juiceboxjerry on Mar 30, 2010 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions
maybe im like the only one
but two years ago, when the first thoughts of 2010 were being produced, while i saw lebrons name on the list of players, it was more the fact that there were so many good players on that list that made me want the bulls to pursue the 2010 plan….
however as we have seen in the last two years, lots of those players have really diminished in ability, have found themselves in constant in jury, or are simply now too old (before on blogabull age wasnt discussed all that much, but thanks to people like yaopao weve seen the horrid affects age can have, not to mention watching garnett in boston) that magic 2010 has only become bosh, wade, lebron, joe johnson, and amare stoudemire, with a bunch of other guys that are pretty good, but not magical….
But since then i always knew, that we wouldnt get lebron, even now i dont know whyd lebron come here, i dont think anyone outside of chicago believes lebron would ever choose chicago. Sure when the bulls cleared capspace the media said “hey chicago can now go after a max free agent, like lebron” but i always took it as them explaining what it meant to have the ability to sign a max agent.
I think the bulls should of course make offers to lebron, but theres no doubt in my mind that lebron nor wade would ever sign in chicago, they either stay with their respective teams or they go to new york, possibly new jersey….i am completely confident in this…i think most people know this too but they try not to bring it to surface….
Its like having the 4th best record in the league, in the the 2003 draft, u know that the overall number 1, lebron, is going to be the best player by far, but u know theres at least 3 other guys who can greatly help your team. So while u would love to have that first pick, that player, if u dont get him u dont mind so much so long as u get one of the other 3 players…..
Pursue lebron sure, but walk away with bosh and no one will be dissapointed, but if u pursue lebron, and watch as bosh wade amare and hell even joe johnson sign elsewhere, and then realize lebron is staying is either staying with the cavs or going to ny just like we always knew he would….well then u get suckered…this team gets screwed even more, and what do we have left? 30 million dollars a depleted roster, and we are truly the clippers…
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
Agreed
It’s not that just LeBron is in this class. It’s that the 4th, 5th, and 6th best FAs are still very good players, meaning there’s little chance of pulling a Ron Mercer.
Brad Miller is god.
i wish the 4th 5th or 6th were better
i think the real way to tier this is this
1st tier-Lebron, and u can get a free agent from tier 3 or 4
2nd tier-Lebron or if u can get two free agents from the next two tiers (but both cant be tier 5)
3rd tier-Bosh and Wade
4th tier-Amare, JJ, Yao
5th tier-boozer, lee, manu,
everyone else
1st tier is championship (conference) and contending for world championship
2nd tier is contention for conference championship
3rd tier is at least second round
4th tier is perrenial playoffs
5th tier is playoffs for now, but short window
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
I'd go like this (ignoring the possibility of a team getting 2)
1. LeBron
2. Bosh, Wade
3. Amare, Boozer, Lee, JJ
4. TMac, Allen, Ginobili, Yao?
Honestly, I’d be all right as long as we got anyone from tiers 1, 2, or 3. But that’s a lot better than say 2006, when it was like this:
1. Ben Wallace, Peja Stojakovic
2. Al Harrington, Jason Terry, Drew Gooden
3. Vladimir Radmanovic, Speedy Claxton, Bonzi Wells
Brad Miller is god.
by Poloplaya14 on Mar 30, 2010 3:31 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
the big goal
for 2010, the one where you can walk away saying that u kiked ass in 2010 free agency, is getting lebron and another max free agent….new york, new jersey, thats what these guys are going for, its the ultimate gamble with success in terms of a dynasty
for teams like chicago who can just afford a max contract, the goal is to get lebron, because then u prevented some team from geting a dynasty, while putting ureself in a position to contend for the world championship
for the rest of the teams that dont land lebron, its about either a) getting the two real good free agents or b) getting the best free agent available after lebron….
SO if new york lands lebron and say, amare, a team like new jersey would try to pursue wade and bosh or joe johnson, or bosh and joe johnson (basically at least one person from my tier 3 and either another tier 3 or tier 4 player) to be successful
for a team like chicago, if lebron is gone, they would try to get the best player overall available, which is bosh (because as its been stated, while wade may be better, bosh is young enough that you can continue to compete and have patience to get a player to get u to contention)
even though this years free agency is better than 2006, alot more teams have basically went all in for this years free agency class, including the bulls…which means screwing up in this free agency class is far more costly than in 2006
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
ok. thats a really really good FA class
lebron, bosh, wade, amare, boozer, lee, jj……
there’s a reason NBA guys have had this summer circled as the best FA summer in years.
there’s nothing to be disappointed in as far as the quality of the ’10 FA class goes.
If you are throwing Yao and Amare into the mix...
Then why not throw Kobe into the mix too? He has the same player option as those guys this summer…
Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.
by Dionysus2.0 on Mar 30, 2010 10:34 PM CDT up reply actions
because i havent read anything about kobe contimplating opting out
there are tons of rumors that amare will, and a recent article (you can find it in the recent fan shots) suggested yao would opt out, i also didnt include dirk cuz once again, i dont see him opting out either…dirk is THE player in dallas and seems more than content there, ditto for kobe, i dont see those two going anywhere, if not for the recent articles, i wouldnt have suggest yao either…
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
by piccolomair on Mar 30, 2010 11:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Kobe probably will opt out
But he’ll probably just resign with the Lakers for a new max deal. The Lakers will give him the full max for 6 years if they have to, and there’s no destination more attractive than reupping with LA.
The same applies to Nowitzki.
Brad Miller is god.
by Poloplaya14 on Mar 30, 2010 11:49 PM CDT up reply actions
hmmm i think its still worth it.
worth it even we dont go after bron. and especially if we nab wade or bosh
Yuck,..
If Lebron and Wade go to NY, then at the very least, the Bulls should pursue David Lee over Joe Johnson…
Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.
Agreed.
Other than Wade or James, Derrick Rose is still the main reason people will pay to see the Bulls. Bosh may be a star, but he’s still going to be seen as “Chris Bosh, guy who makes Bulls better”, not “OMG OMG WE GOT BOSH”.
Lee makes them a better team, he’ll please the hustlecore contingent of the fanbase, and Rose is still going to be tons of fun.
by Ozzie Montana on Mar 30, 2010 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions
I sort of agree
I think it’ll be sort of how like even though the Bears got Julius Peppers, Brian Urlacher is still the man, even though Peppers is actually better.
Brad Miller is god.
i think bosh will be looked at as
omg omg omg we got bosh
i think lebron will be looked at as F#CK YOU MOTHA F#KAS!!!! WE OWNING THIS $#!^
i think joe johnson and amare will be the , guy who makes bulls better….
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
Chicagoians love Rose
because he’s the hometown boy.
by Stacey_Is_King on Mar 30, 2010 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions
I think it depends a lot on this season
If the Cavs win it all, then sure, Lebron could look at the rest of the Cavs and think he’d have a good chance of winning again next year.
But suppose the Cavs look old and slow in the playoffs and get bounced. Shaq, Jamison, Parker and Z are all ancient. They’ll be getting obviously worse while a team like the Bulls would be getting obviously better.
i can't argue with that
if the cavs disappoint, things definitely open up. But i just don’t think that will happen. And if does, I think it pushes him to NY not Chicago. Especially if he can get Joe Johnson to follow him.
by Basketball Smurf on Mar 30, 2010 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions
Wait, why argue?
Bill Simmons says he knows LeBron and Bosh are coming here. Shut down the blog until July!
by Ozzie Montana on Mar 30, 2010 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
the thing is he would be an absolute God in cleveland for the rest of his life
he would be the face of ohio sports and would reach outside the sports realm.
NY is just so freaking big. they’ve had their share of sports idols (look at old yankees, old-school knicks, all the other celebrities).
i don’t think staying in cleveland would be just for winning….he would leave a mark that he probably wouldnt leave in new york.
wrong
"Michael Redd's owed 18.3 million next year. He can either opt out like an idiot or opt in like a douche bag." - NittanyCub
The 'God in Cleveland' part is not wrong.
But he would be a larger world personality in NYC.
Bosh or Bust
by JockstrapNoah on Mar 30, 2010 5:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Don't you think there will under the table talks before July 1st?
The Bulls should be reaching out to every free agent they would consider prior to see if there is corresponding interest; then proceed with the public showers of affection to the best player who would consider the Bulls to be their preferred destination.
It doesn’t make sense to pursue these guys one at a time on July 1st…it makes sense to have feelers out around the league, then pursue the one publicly that will be signing with the team.
Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.
The bulls do need a shooting guard
The bulls can get a young shooting guard either in the draft or freeagency, someone like morrow for a cheaper price than joe johnson.
SG is
definitley a huge need, a true SG somebody 6’5" at least, can defend, and shoot the rock
by QUINTEN DALEY on Mar 30, 2010 11:07 AM CDT up reply actions
Yeah!
We need a magicaltwoguardwhocanshootanddefend!!!!
If only I had a hot tub that allowed me to go back in time and convince Pax to take Brandon Roy instead of Tyrus Thomas and Victor Khrappy.
2010... where relevant basketball in Chicago happens!
by kidronmusic on Mar 30, 2010 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Might as well tell him to trade up for D-Wade in '03
Kid Turned out to be pretty good.
Brad Miller is god.
by Poloplaya14 on Mar 30, 2010 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Somebody who fits the profile..
That’s why I don’t get all the Wade-chatter. It nullifies Rose in the biggest way. You need somebody who will fill the lanes, being most comfortable in a high-tempo. Somebody like what Kerry Kittles was, not a black hole but hit three’s, played great defense and played perfectly off the team’s personality.
ew
honestly if it nullifies Rose, then imagine the haul you can get when you deal Rose.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 30, 2010 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions
Kerry Kittles, love
the name drop, good complementary player, and not Lucious Harris
by QUINTEN DALEY on Mar 30, 2010 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Kurt Kittles?
Why do people think having a (potentially) great player at one position means you should offset it by surrounding him with forgettable ones.
by Sports2 on Mar 30, 2010 3:16 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Kerry Kittles was terrible, really he was awful.
When I think complementary players, I think of Caron Butler, Lamar Odom, Jannero Pargo.
by Ozzie Montana on Mar 30, 2010 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions
With that being said, all the bulls needs is to get rid of kurt, pargo and get a couple of player THAT CAN SHOOT THE DAMN BALL
by jamaica876 on Mar 30, 2010 11:08 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Good point
If Lebron did come to the bulls, he would average 5 or 6 assist a game like rose, just because no one on the teams can make shots.
The only thing Wade has over Bosh
is that he has that “I want to play with him and hang out” factor. I can see him attracting players for a lessor price just so they can play with him.
"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."
- fundamentallysound
Seriously, why is this even an argument?
Bosh’s 24.58 PER this season is equal to Kareem Abdul-Jabbar’s career PER! If his PER is comparable to a hall of famer’s career average, how is he not worth a max deal. If the other big name players in this year’s free agency were Richard Jefferson, Andre Miller, and Carl Landry, this would not even be a discussion.
by DRose01 on Mar 30, 2010 12:14 PM CDT reply actions 6 recs
Isn't Larry Hughes' PER up there too?
Let’s sign him instead. Why do we need to sign a max FA. Getting Huhges would be the safe move.
"Oh, y ahora ¿quién podrá defenderme?" "¡Yo!"
by chapuforyou on Mar 30, 2010 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Larry Hughes is determined to one-up Gilbert Arenas' craziness.
"Oh, y ahora ¿quién podrá defenderme?" "¡Yo!"
I would disagree
that a player having a season PER equal to a HOF’s career PER qualifies him for max dollars. Over the past few years, players with PER’s over 25 include: Boozer, Jefferson, Brand, Gasol, Marion, etc… All very good players, but not likely max-worthy, even in their prime.
"The people we lost, I'm sad we lost them because they helped us. But the organization saw something in these players. They're going to help us. They don't have any attitude problems. They just want to ball." - Derrick Rose
Pau definately
Boozer is on the margin.
Top 5 Center, PF, or PG is definately worth a Max deal.
"Michael Redd's owed 18.3 million next year. He can either opt out like an idiot or opt in like a douche bag." - NittanyCub
Regarding PER, and for discussion ...
just taking a look at PER’s of a player like Kevin Garnett vs. Al Jefferson. Garnett was coming off a great 2006/07 season with Minnesota (29.2 PER). Big fish in a small pond goes to a big pond in Boston and the next two years produces 24.8 and 21.1 PER respectively. Still good numbers, but there is a price to be paid in personal statistics when you go from a small talent pool to a larger talent pool. Albeit age and injuries (and the presence of Pierce/Allen) played a part in Garnett’s statistical decline, however, if you also look at Al Jefferson’s stats in the same 3 year span, he went from a 21.0 PER in Boston in 2006/07, and pumped it up to 23.8 and 25.1 PER the following two seasons on a weak Minnesota team, while being counted on as “the man”.
Bosh is absolutely wanted in Chicago. I don’t think anyone ’doesn’t’ want Bosh. But if there are expectations that Bosh will continue to have a 25 PER in Chicago playing next to Rose, Noah, Deng, I think those expectations need to be tempered – perhaps even similar to the Garnett/ Jefferson example above. A player who is “the man” on a weak team may expect to lose some PER statistics on a well rounded team. So assuming Bosh comes to Chicago and becomes a ~20-21 PER player, is he still worth the max money?
My answer would be ‘yes’, if he can be a main piece into bringing a title back to Chicago. If he’s just here to get his individual stats and starts a primadonna act like the BS currently going on in Toronto, it could be a long ride.
"The people we lost, I'm sad we lost them because they helped us. But the organization saw something in these players. They're going to help us. They don't have any attitude problems. They just want to ball." - Derrick Rose
I think Garnett's decline
has much more to do with injury and age (he’s playing on 1 knee right now, like last season) than it did with playing with more talented teammates.
Even still, we won’t be asking Bosh to change his role in Chicago as dramatically as the Celtics did with Garnett. From the very first year Garnett was offensively Pierce’s sidekick. With injury and age, and the maturation of Rondo, Garnett has become the 4th best offensive option on that team. If the Bulls were to sign Bosh, at the very least, he and Rose would be 1a and 1b as offensive options. He is going to see the ball in his hands just as much as he does now.
Steve Nash famously had his PER climb incredibly when he went from Dallas to Phoenix. The two teams were about equal in talent, but the situation in Phoenix fit Nash better. I think the fit in Chicago is potentially better for Bosh and the Bulls.
by Basketball Smurf on Mar 30, 2010 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions
Further
When Deng signed his current contract, there wasn’t a lot of uproar on BaB… until Deng’s contract became a perceived obstacle in 1) resigning BG, and 2) 2010 free agency. If Bosh signs for max money, and IF he isn’t the main cog in this upcoming Bulls engine, how long before the Chicago’s fans are calling for Bosh’s expensive head?…
"The people we lost, I'm sad we lost them because they helped us. But the organization saw something in these players. They're going to help us. They don't have any attitude problems. They just want to ball." - Derrick Rose
very good points. Results matter
If Bosh comes here and we get knocked out in the 1st round. Hell yeah we will want his head!
"Michael Redd's owed 18.3 million next year. He can either opt out like an idiot or opt in like a douche bag." - NittanyCub
Geez if we start 3-5 next year
I’ll be screaming for his head…hehe
"Michael Redd's owed 18.3 million next year. He can either opt out like an idiot or opt in like a douche bag." - NittanyCub
and as I look up Garnett's numbers, I notice you got them wrong
Garnett had a 29.4 PER in 03-04. It decreased in every subsequent year he was with Minnesota reaching 24.1 in 06-07, his final season. In his first year with the Celtics Garnett’s PER was 25.3.
Garnett started to decline before he even got to the Celtics. His current struggles should come to no surprise. 07-08 was the aberration. Garnett was 30 when the Celtics acquired him. Bosh will be 26 next season.
by Basketball Smurf on Mar 30, 2010 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
You are correct. Thanks.
I was looking at an NBA.com site, and not the ESPN site for my numbers. Correct numbers are:
Garnett:
06/07 – 24.2
07/08 – 25.4
08/09 – 21.3
Jefferson:
06/07 – 19.9
07/08 – 22.8
08/09 – 23.2
"The people we lost, I'm sad we lost them because they helped us. But the organization saw something in these players. They're going to help us. They don't have any attitude problems. They just want to ball." - Derrick Rose
I'll just add the USG has a lot to do with PER.
If a player is responsible for a lot of the offensive load, he’s going to get more credit for it. It’s right to speculate that, all else being equal, if his touches go down, his PER will decline.
HOWEVER, Rose is only the current high-usage player on the Bulls. Deng is moderately high-usage. Noah, Gibson and Hinrich are all low usage. The Bulls should also have a new coach next year with a new system. And Bosh will be one of the two best players and should be featured. Basically, I don’t think there is any reason his usage should decline.
Plus, he’s still young enough that “all else being equal” might actually go up. His rebounding could go down, though…. shooting might go up. AST my go up.
Who knows?
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Ok fine then
Bosh’s career PER is 21.2…this is just short of Dr. J’s career PER…if you look at the last four seasons, ones in which he was actually old enough to drink, his average is over 23! That is pushing Hakeem’s career PER!
And again, if you don’t buy that argument, I go back to my original point: if there is no LeBron, Wade, Stoudemire, Johnson, or Boozer this year in free agency, a max deal would not even be a question, so why is it a question now?
And if you don’t buy that argument, you are wrong.
Don't ever compare Bosh to Kareem again OK?
"Michael Redd's owed 18.3 million next year. He can either opt out like an idiot or opt in like a douche bag." - NittanyCub
Why not?
We miss you, Tyrus Thomas and Ben Gordon!
by Granny Waiters on Apr 3, 2010 5:42 PM CDT up reply actions
It's not an actual talent comparison
But if someone is being as efficient numbers wise as a hall of famer, why are they not worth the max?
i dont think any of those guys you mentioned had a PER over 25 at any point in their career.
"Oooohhh, cat in the wall, eh? Now you're talkin' my language."
Yes, you're correct.
My numbers were from NBA.com. Not sure why they differ from the ESPN PER numbers. Sorry for the mistake. Brand is the only one on that list over 25 PER. The others were close behind but not quite 25.
"The people we lost, I'm sad we lost them because they helped us. But the organization saw something in these players. They're going to help us. They don't have any attitude problems. They just want to ball." - Derrick Rose
FYI PER doesnt work for kareem's first four, five seasons
bc the league didnt keep track of blocks and individual turnovers.
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=PERDiem-100330
Top 5 player in your position deserves a Max Deal
Good post yfbb, Currently how many players have MAX deals?
So that’s 25 guys. Out of 150 starters in the League. I’m now convinvced that it is OK to give these players MAX deals. About 17% of the starters getting a MAX deal is not crazy is it? Maybe it does seem high. Is it closer to 10 players? 15?
My whole argument is not to feel disappointed if we get Amare or Boozer, or even Joe Johnson. With a healthy Rose, Noah, Taj, Deng. Adding another ALL-STAR makes a huge difference, no matter if it is Bosh, Amare, or Boozer.
We all know to win a title you have to get to about 55+ wins and then have your stars kick ass in the playoffs. Trust me folks, Rose and Amare or Rose and Bosh, along with Deng/Taj/Noah/JJ can go toe to toe with Lebron’s team or Howard’s team, or Wade.
Remember that Bosh has injury problems too, he has had back problems.
But yes I would pay the MAX to Bosh, or Amare, because that is the market value.
"Michael Redd's owed 18.3 million next year. He can either opt out like an idiot or opt in like a douche bag." - NittanyCub
About 10 players are at the MAX right now
After this off-season we will be at about 15-18.
"Michael Redd's owed 18.3 million next year. He can either opt out like an idiot or opt in like a douche bag." - NittanyCub
Taj says its OK for Bulls to go after Bosh or Amare
Although they will have to out-play him in training camp to win the starters spot.
"Michael Redd's owed 18.3 million next year. He can either opt out like an idiot or opt in like a douche bag." - NittanyCub
seems unfair, he didn't have to out-play Tyrus
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 30, 2010 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
In other words....they just have to show up.
"Some people want it to happen, some wish it would happen, others make it happen." - Michael Jordan
Bosh will just have to wait for Taj to foul out.
All of 30 seconds.
by Ozzie Montana on Mar 30, 2010 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Awesome read
I totally agree with everything written. Even the part about Bosh being possibly better than Wade given Wade’s sketchy injury history. I am, however, totally frightened by this organizations cheapness, but if they are willing to just pay their own gd players we could have a pretty nice group going forward (if we got Bosh that is)
Neil takes the fun out of funk
Huge contracts the Bulls have offered
71 Million to Deng
63 Chandler
60 to Ben Wallace
50+ Kirk
50+ BG (He turned down twice)
Bulls are willing to pay, Even Overpay becuase of the market.
Suppose you think the Bears are also cheap?
"Michael Redd's owed 18.3 million next year. He can either opt out like an idiot or opt in like a douche bag." - NittanyCub
They used to be but not in recent years
Suppose you think the Bears are also cheap?
Joakim on whether he ever tried tennis: "I played a little bit. If anybody on the Bulls wanted to play me, I would kick their ass."
Good post though
I can’t understand how someone would think Chris Bosh isn’t worth a max contract. If we don’t get LeBron he would be my first choice over Wade by a long shot. I’d be happy with any of the big names though, but for me it’s LeBron, Bosh, then everyone else.
by Grinder in Training on Mar 30, 2010 3:27 PM CDT reply actions
You cant understand why he wouldnt get one...neither do i.....
however look at previous days comments – and youd be shocked to see how many here think he doesnt deserve one or at least we shouldnt pay it
Let's stop dreaming......
The only thing that matters is: Who wants to play for the Bulls? The big names we keep hearing about aren’t coming to Chicago, unless the Bulls are willing to overpay to get them. Also, the Bulls aren’t contending for a title, and most of these guys are looking for that in a franchise. The Bulls need to get a real head coach who knows the X and O’s, and look to get guys like David Lee, who would be willing to team up with a Joakim Noah and Derrick Rose, along with a solid head coach. It’s not about spending the money, but it does matter that you’re willing to win and bring in the talent to do such. Bosh of all names will possibly be changing teams (for no one stays in Toronto), but Wade, James, Kobe, and etc, are just looking to maximize their deals with their current teams. Any team that gambles to get a big name or top pick by losing on purpose or trading away garbage contracts (that they should not have signed players to in the 1st place) are showing that they aren’t about winning, nor have they ever been about winning. It starts with a smart GM and a smart head coach who both share the same vision of winning. Then you draft guys who can become cornerstones (and you develop them, not throw money at them and expect them to become superstars overnight). Then you see who can fit into your vision and play to the level that you require them to…… This is what attracts other superstars to want to come to your team and play. You can bargain with a player, when he’s made the money, but has no titles to show for it. But if you aren’t winning, then he’ll make you feel that you need to pay him, because he’s a difference maker! The Bulls need to realize that this type of planning will blow up in your face everytime! Remember Danny Ainge????
Nope!
But you are if you think that what I’m saying isn’t true!!!! The teams that are winning titles are the very ones that are doing what I’m saying: Lakers & Spurs. I don’t even count Boston, but if you look at Cleveland, they’re doing just that!!!!! No Superstar (not average player) will come to a team that has no clue as to what they want to do!!!! This is the Chicago Bulls, the team that doesn’t have to win in order to make money!!!! It doesn’t matter if you want to date the hottest chick in the world, what matters is: Does she want to date you for who you really are. People haven’t forgot (especially agents) how the Chicago Bulls do business.
So much wrong with this
How do you overpay? Every team is willing to give them the maximum amount? Unless the Bulls are illegally paying the under the table, they can’t pay more even if they wanted to.
No one wants to stay in Toronto?? Have you been to Toronto? It’s a very nice city. It blows Cleveland out of the water.
Willing to win? As if winning is painful? I’m sure every team is willing to win.
A team that gambles to get one of the best players in the league or gets rid of it’s garbage contracts isn’t trying to win? Really? Because I think that’s exactly what you would do if you were trying to win.
The Bulls aren’t contending for a title? Who says? What about the Bulls actions have made you think they aren’t contending for a championship? They are going to do exactly that if they add a superstar. If they sign Bosh or LeBron, they are instantly among the favorites to win the title. Rose, Noah, Deng, Superstar = Championship contender.
by Grinder in Training on Mar 30, 2010 4:34 PM CDT up reply actions
What!!!!
Who are you really?? If Toronto was a great city, then why every bonafide superstar they’ve had is gone to other squads?? It doesn’t matter if the city is great, if the team isn’t!!! As for the Bulls, they had a team just a few years ago that was picked to be in the East Finals after a 6 game series against Detroit, but all of a sudden, the coach was fired!!!! (actually, he was the scapegoat for the front office) And the Bulls were flirting with possible trades for Kobe and Pau (How short a memory we have), then lest not forget the contracts of Gordon and Deng, along with Wallace and others becoming cancers in the locker room because of management and their misdealings!!! Now the Bulls are starting from scratch, and almost every player that they’ve drafted or signed is now playing for a playoff contender and contributing to their mission. While the Bulls are hoping that one of those guys are willing to come to Chicago and play for something!!! This is where we confuse ourselves: If the player doesn’t have the right system for his talents, it means absolutely zero!!! This is why I’m saying what I’m saying……. The Bulls have burned so many bridges with agents, that it will take more than the money to get someone here who wants to win and win big. But the Bulls will pretend and fail (like once before) because it doesn’t matter. Also, there are always other ways to enrich the pot, such as picking up other clients from the same agent repping the big fish!!!! Last, but not least: The key word being “IF”, which they won’t. If you’re a fan, then how is it that you don’t remember the Bulls history with their players past and current? I haven’t forgotten JACK!!!!!
courtside at the game
my brother heard a dude ask one of the administration who they were gonna get in the off season and he said “put a gun to my head, Bosh and Wade” man i hope he wasn’t bullshitting
Legacy of KA(i)NE
by Kaner's Revenge on Mar 30, 2010 4:03 PM CDT reply actions
get your guns.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 30, 2010 4:24 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
about damn time!
"Let's do some living... after we die"
by marionette on Mar 30, 2010 4:27 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
The end justifies the means?
Vinny: "[Thrust] means pace, it means getting the ball out, it means getting your back to the sidelines, it means extending your outlets, it means getting the ball up the court into our early offense with plenty of time."
For Bosh and Wade?
I think the end justifies any means. Who wants to take one for the team and serve a life sentece?
Legacy of KA(i)NE
by Kaner's Revenge on Mar 30, 2010 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions
sentence
Shit i can’t type
Legacy of KA(i)NE
by Kaner's Revenge on Mar 30, 2010 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions
they don't have to be loaded
(there, that should keep me out of prison)
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 30, 2010 4:37 PM CDT up reply actions
My worry
Rose is very underpaid right now, but he will be due a max or near max contract of his own soon, can we afford to pay both of them?
by Kyle From Chicago on Mar 30, 2010 7:12 PM CDT reply actions
"Afford to"?!?!?!
Yes. The Bulls are the most profitable team in the NBA. There is no reason they can’t give Bosh and Rose MAX deals and Deng and Noah $12 million deals and Taj Gibson a $10 million deal and Hinrich another 5-year deal….
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
lol this is not baseball
profits have nothing to do with cap space. the bulls would be better served getting rid of everybody but rose
YOU CAN PUT IT ON THE BOARD YES!
www.reverbnation.com/czheckproductions
www.mybeatshop.com/czheckproductions
Once he puts on "The Face" it does not matter if the basket wants the ball, its gonna accept the ball-Kobe Law amendment 24
Bulls Should get WADE
Hes won a ring. Yes he had Shaq. But Wade carried that team. He knows what it takes to win a championship.
I don’t care if hes an injury risk… although that one guy that rehabbed his knees is based in Chicago…
Offer him a secret resort in Downtown Chicago where he can have all the weed/sex parties he wants…
Bulls should go for Wade first. Him and Rose would be like The Flash and… another Flash I guess? Two Flashes I suppose.
And then go over the tax for David Lee.
You can't sign Wade
and then just “go over the tax for David Lee”. It doesn’t work that way. They have to have enough cap space available to sign both in order to do that. If they somehow managed to sign Wade, I would be happy enough with that honestly.
Joakim on whether he ever tried tennis: "I played a little bit. If anybody on the Bulls wanted to play me, I would kick their ass."
lol whoever said chris bosh is good is playing way to much 2k10
dude is decent at best. ive never seen anybody fade into thin air as much as that guy. he would avg 12 pts trust me you dont want this fool. get anyyyybody but him. i think the bulls shit get rudy gay him and d rose would be nasty
YOU CAN PUT IT ON THE BOARD YES!
www.reverbnation.com/czheckproductions
www.mybeatshop.com/czheckproductions
Once he puts on "The Face" it does not matter if the basket wants the ball, its gonna accept the ball-Kobe Law amendment 24
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