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Why swapping a top-10 protected pick sucks

  As almost everyone knows, we traded John Salmons to Milwaukee to rid ourselves of his potential 2010 salary. We gave up two second round picks (2011 & 2012), to do so and we agreed to give Milwaukee the option of swapping 1st round picks with us, as long as our pick is #11 or above. I hate giving away 2nd round picks because they are useful for filling out a roster and, more importantly, in the recent past the Bulls have drafted well in the 2nd round (Duhon and Gray); however, this post is about that 1st round pick.

Star-divide

  The Bulls have played 65 games and currently sit at 31-34, this gives us a win percentage of .477. Draft position is determined by record and our record among the whole league is 11th worst. The 11th pick is the worst place to be in the draft for us, because we would give it to Milwaukee, but if we could fall one more spot, we would keep the 10th pick.

Is there any hope that we fall to 10th worst team?

  The answer is yes, but there's not a lot of hope. Of those 10 teams worse than us, two of them, New Jersey and Minnesota, are guaranteed to have worse records than us. That is,even if we lost every game and they won every game they couldn't have a better record than us. The 8 teams that give us hope (and the maximum number of wins the could receive in parentheses) are Golden State (35), Indiana (38), Sacramento (38), New York (39), Detroit (40), Philadelpha (40), Washington (40), and our biggest hope comes from the L.A. Clippers (41). You pretty much know you're team is screwed when you're counting on the L.A. Clippers to win games.

How does the Lottery affects things?

  The lottery means any team in it has a chance at getting picks 1-3, so even the 11th worst team could draft a top 3 prospect or get shifted back as far as the 14th pick , if the lottery is won by teams 12-14. The only way to actually guarantee that we keep the pick is to fall to the 7th worst seed, but really even the 10th worst team only has a 9.1 % chance to draft later than 10th. As the 11th pick, we have a 2.9% chance to draft 1-3.

The sad truth

  If we make the playoffs, most of us won't care if we fall 1-2 slots and give our pick to the Bucks, I know I wouldn't.  It's just looking less and less likely that that's going to happen.  Swishh "being as pessimistic as possible" thought the Bulls would end up with a 37-45 record going 6 and 11 the rest of the way. I actually think the Bulls could be even worse, but I'll work with his numbers for fun. We only need one of those 6 teams to get a record better than us, but it's not likely. If we finished the next 17 games, 6 and 17 (.350 during that period), it would take the L.A. Clippers winning 75% of their last 16 games for them to drop us to the 10th seed in the draft. I find that depressing. There are five other teams that could make a run with a run at the 11th seed, but predicting a huge winning streak for any of them is hard to believe when so far they've all played worse than .400 so far.  The sad truth is Gar Paxson should have seen that top-10 protection was mostly useless and should have got more protection on it, at least 11th. 

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duhon and gray? LOL

i don’t think it matters anymore. If they do not pull in a big FA this summer, I am becoming either an Oklahoma Thunder fan or a Charlotte Bobcat fan. Ive pulled with the bulls through the thick and thin but i need to watch some quality bball be played and wait till we can finally get some new blood ownership in Chicago.

by serbstream on Mar 13, 2010 8:08 PM CST reply actions  

Boooooo

"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."

- fundamentallysound

by J Theory on Mar 13, 2010 10:07 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

BOOOOOO are you serious ?

The man has been with da Bulls thick and thin and you Boo him. What planet have you been on for the past decade?

by bluezman7 on Mar 15, 2010 6:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, but the swap issue is pretty minor

There are plenty of legitimate complaints about what our organization has done. Whining about dropping a couple spots in the middle of the 1st round of the draft is just nitpicking

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Mar 14, 2010 1:58 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

i agree, the difference between 11 and 17 is pretty negligible, but its one more piece of evidence

in the ever growing case that this org is pretty clueless.

"Oooohhh, cat in the wall, eh? Now you're talkin' my language."

by TheMoon on Mar 14, 2010 3:36 AM CST up reply actions  

No.

The organization may be clueless, but this pick is not a piece of evidence for that. The goal was to get rid of John Salmons, if it means dropping a measly 5 or 6 picks in the middle of the draft, who the hell cares? It just doesn’t matter.

by Grinder in Training on Mar 14, 2010 11:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

wrong. the goal was to get max cap space. getting rid of john in the manner they did was

one way to do it, but i refuse to believe it was the only way. this org. has supposedly had this “plan” for how long? 18 months? and the best they could do was to send a productive player away (who will probably opt out anyways) to a rival for lesser talent, drop 5-6 places in the draft and lose 2 2nd rounders?

"Oooohhh, cat in the wall, eh? Now you're talkin' my language."

by TheMoon on Mar 15, 2010 12:29 AM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

Yes.

The team didn’t drop 5-6 places in the draft p/c Salmons left. W/ Salmons here, we’d still be bad, maybe we win one or two more games. We dropped 5-6 places b/c we’ve had injuries all over the place and also traded Tyrus Thomas.

At the time of the trade it was not a sure thing by any means Salmons would opt-out. Whoever was taking him on had no idea what he might do. It was a risk only a few teams were willing to take.

by Grinder in Training on Mar 15, 2010 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions  

It does matter.

http://www.82games.com/barzilai1.htm

A great deal? No. But it isn’t insignificant. The 9, 10, 11 picks are typically the best “value” for picks in the entire draft. The starting salary drops precipitously in the 10 top picks, but the talent does not. You can still find good players in that range, but for only marginally more in price than the 16th or 17th pick.

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Mar 15, 2010 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

FA cures all ills

If we use the cap space provided by the Salmons deal to sign a top tier FA, nobody will care about the pick swap. If we end up whiffing on the big FAs and end up overpaying David Lee, people will point to the pick swap as another horrible move by Bulls’ management.

by Stay Chisel on Mar 14, 2010 3:04 PM CDT reply actions  

Exactly.

See, if the Bulls got in the Top 10, they might not have enough room to even get a MAX free agent.

I actually wonder if they thought about this.

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Mar 15, 2010 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

and thus, had the "Top 10 protected" thing fully in mind.

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Mar 15, 2010 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions  

Gray?

It will have no effect in FA if they make the playoffs or not and their draft pick wont either.

by Badmotostinkfinger on Mar 14, 2010 4:02 PM CDT reply actions  

its amazing what deals pax makes (or doesn't make) to keep Hinrich

Salmons +2 second rounders
Gordon to Pistons
Tyrus Thomas instead of Brandon Roy

Is Hinrich really the golden gate goose? or is paxson opinion clouded by manlove?

"I tried being reasonable, I didn't like it."
"Go ahead, make my day"
"We boil at different degrees"
"A good man always knows his limitations"
"You've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?"

by exult463 on Mar 14, 2010 10:02 PM CDT reply actions  

Yeah good point

Paxson definitely deliberately picked Tyrus over Roy, knowing that Roy would become a future all-star just so he would be able to keep Kirk. It had nothing to do with the fact that, at the time, PF was by far our biggest weakness and we had a very good young backcourt that looked capable of improving.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Mar 15, 2010 1:40 AM CDT up reply actions  

nothing seems to crazy when it comes to Kirk-love.

USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 15, 2010 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions  

Riensdorf is the one

keeping Kirk around, Pax doesn’t mind dealing him, its the meddling owner that wants to keep Kirk.

by QUINTEN DALEY on Mar 15, 2010 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

I know it is far too early, but

Looking at mock drafts (which are admittedly worthless since we don’t even know draft order yet) switching from the 11th to 18th pick would make me expect the Bulls
to (very roughly) switch from having a chance at the 4th guard to the 6th guard available – Second or third center to the 5th center, Fifth power forward taken to the 7th or 8th pf, 3rd sf taken to the 5th sf. (counting dual positions twice) Pretty steep drop.

There are no guarantees at 11, but the players likely left at 18 all seem like low ceiling guys or complete crapshoots – e.g. Will Stanley Robinson ever find his way off of the bench? Will Jan Vesely be a Rubio and stay in Europe? Will this year’s random African player (Solomon Alabi ) who learned how to play basketball as an adult pan out? No one has any clue.

by Kyle From Chicago on Mar 27, 2010 5:47 PM CDT reply actions  

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