Knicks vs. Bulls in FA
by Onyx1191 on Mar 10, 2010 11:11 PM CST
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PrintI was just sitting here thinking about all the positive things the Bulls have to offer free agents come this summer. Then I had a thought. The Knicks have some pretty good assets to offer free agents as well. So I will do a small comparison of the teams with positives and negatives. (This is assuming that they all decide they hate their teams and that Chicago/NY are the only options. I know there are other teams, but I don't feel like checking up on the Nets or Miami.)
Chicago Bulls Positives:
-We have Derrick Rose. Nuff said
-Big City Market for free agents. Most attended games in the league, one of the most profitable orgs
-We have Noah and Deng to support FA + Rose.
-Our record is hovering ~.500, despite all our shortcomings.
-We have a modern legacy in having success with superstars.
-We have the $$
Chicago Bulls Negatives:
-First and foremost is the possibility that VDN may be back next season.
-Beyond Rose, Deng, Noah and Hinrich/Miller/Taj to a smaller extent, we have nothing. Our bench is god awful. And we don't have much chance to improve it. JJ is unpredictable, although showing some promise recently. We have no 2nd round picks for couple seasons. We're swapping first round picks with Milwaukee unless we completely blow the rest of the season.
-We have VDN
-Our organization is stingy with cash, to put it kindly. So it's unlikely we will go over the cap to build a championship team, unless we land Dwade or Lebron (because it's almost a given we get rings with one of those two +Drose. And if anyone disputes this point, I have only this to say: As of right now, Drose is averaging 20.3 ppg being the known main offensive threat with nobody to draw double teams off him. If he has another scorer, he gets to the basket more, gets more open shots, more assists, etc. and our offense would be unstoppable with Wade/Lebron + Noah to mop up any misses. Defense can be worked on.)
- We have VDN. It's important to stress because we, as fans, can obviously see that Vinny's playbook consists of: 1. Give it to Drose and hope it works, 2. Give to Pargo for "instant offense", 3. Bench our hot players. If fans can see this, players definitely can.
Now it's time to asses the NYK.
Knicks Positives:
-They have Mike D'Antoni, who is known for being able to run a fast paced offense, and has a pretty damn good record (Excluding his time with the Knicks.) He was 21-40 in 04-05 with Phoenix. Then, he went 62-20, 54-28, 61-21, 55-27 the next four seasons respectively. Pretty damn good.
-They also have the Big City Market. However they have the Garden.
-The Knicks pieces include David Lee (I know FA this summer but im assuming they're going to work to keep him). They also have Al Harrington (18 ppg) and floor-spreaders in Eddie House (I don't know if he's there for more than this season) and Danilo Gallinari. After these guys there isn't much.
- They have a ALOT of cash. ALOT. Possible Scenarios: 1 max FA + signing a few 2nd tier free agents to support him + existing pieces, or 2 max FAs and existing crew plus draft picks. Neither are bad cases.
Knicks Negatives:
-They're god awful right now
-Been stuck in the dregs of the EC for a few seasons now
-It would take a tremendous effort by the front office and a good deal of luck for their plan to work their first season. More likely, it would take a few seasons to build a championship team. Since the max FAs want to win big during their prime, this is a big negative. The Bulls have the one up here because they are already decent.
-The Knicks have a terrible reputation right now, with their recent history.
Overall, I think the Bulls' chances are better, but not by far. What do you guys think?
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Donald Sterling
is notorious as the worst owner in the league. Plus everyone that signs with the Clips is star crossed.
Bosh or Bust
by JockstrapNoah on Mar 14, 2010 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions
Just a few things to note
Eddie House and Al Harrington are free agents along with David Lee for the Knicks. Really they just have Gallinari, Wilson Chandler, Tony Douglas, Eddy Curry and possibly Sergio Rodriquez (who could be renounced or offered the qualifying offer). They are also giving up their lottery pick to the Jazz.
I think VDN will be gone after this season. I’m not sure how to feel about that since the same organization that inexplicably hired him in the first place, then stuck him with this terribly thin roster, will be hiring his replacement. As long as it’s a respectable coach not named Doug Collins I guess that will be an upgrade.
One other thing the Knicks have over us is that a free agent going there won’t have to worry about whether or not they will spend to add pieces around him when necessary. The Knicks have no problem spending, they just haven’t spent money wisely in the past. But that was before Donnie Walsh came and he’s certainly not Isiah or Scott Layden. Donnie Walsh and D’Antoni + Dolan’s willingness to spend could be a real advantage when it comes down to it.
One other note, even if we lost every game the rest of the way (which definitely won’t happen..will it?), we still wouldn’t move up too many draft spots with only 19 games to go because we the next tier of teams is so bad. The only team I could see moving ahead of us would be the Clippers and they would have to finish 7-10 to do so which isn’t guaranteed at all. It looks like if we miss the playoffs (barring a miracle top 10 lottery drawing), we will end up swapping with Milwaukee and get a pick around 18 or so.
Joakim on whether he ever tried tennis: "I played a little bit. If anybody on the Bulls wanted to play me, I would kick their ass."
laughable
(because it’s almost a given we get rings with one of those two +Drose.
It’s no where near a given. Wade/ LeBron would be gone in 3 years without a ship, and I can’t see D-rose and LeBron/Wade taking down Kobe and Gasol, The Magic, Melo and Billups. LeBron could make it close, but it’s not like Rose is a top 10 player. Plus with Wade the bulls would lead the league in 3 pt shooting! Considering Rose and Dwade combined shoot 25%
Kirby Moore for Heisman
Rose may not be a top 10 player, but he could be one in 2-3 years.
Brad Miller is god.
by Poloplaya14 on Mar 11, 2010 12:41 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
possible, but doubtful
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
I disagree.
The way D Rose is progressing it is not doubtful to me he would be within the top 10 to 20 players in the league. He is having a monster second year with progression of his shot he could really be a dominant force.
The Dude Abides
by Savage23 on Mar 11, 2010 2:36 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Here are the current top 15 NBA players in terms of PER, along with their PER when they were 21, as Rose is now.
LeBron James, 28.1
Dwyane Wade, not in league, posted 17.6 PER at age 22
Tim Duncan, 22.6
Chris Bosh 23.2
Kevin Durant 25.3
Dwight Howard 21.1
Kobe Bryant 21.7
Carmelo Anthony 22.0
Dirk Nowitzki 17.5
David Lee, not in league, posted 15.4 at age 22
Josh Smith, 18.3
Steve Nash, not in league, posted 10.8 at age 22
Brandon Roy, not in league, posted 18.0 at age 22
Zach Randolph, 19.9
Chauncey Billups, 13.6
Rose is at 18.4. Note how far ahead he is of Dwyane Wade at the same age, and he’s the most similar in terms of style of play. He’s also ahead of everybody 9-15 at age 21, except Zach Randolph. I don’t think it’s really that doubtful. It’s not a given that he’ll be top 10 at some point, but I think it’s a pretty reasonable projection considering how raw he is.
Brad Miller is god.
Note:
These players can lead their team into playoff runs, face it the Bulls lose in 5 games withour BG last year. How many T.O.’s did Rose avg. in last years playoffs? 6? And PP and Rondo 2 man game made Rose look stupid
Kirby Moore for Heisman
Note that PER is not an all-ecompassing stat.
It does not rate defense as well as it should. Note that Rose is still below average at defense. Note also that he said in 2-3 years.
If I were given even odds, the players I would bet are all-around better players than Rose in 2-3 years. I have little to zero doubt about these guys.
1 James
2 Bosh
3 Durant
4 Howard
5 Anthony
6 Roy
7 Chris Paul
Guys I would not count out:
7 Dwyane Wade
8 Kobe Bryant
9 Josh Smith
10 Deron Williams
11 Gerald Wallace
12 Al Horford
My dark horse:
Greg Oden
Now, had you said Top 20 or Top 10 in 5 years, I’d have less beef.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
another team to watch
you mentioned a few teams for titles “if” we get a superstar to go with Rose and no bench… ( I hope Im wrong) but look at the Mavs… hot now, besides tonights loss, but as of next year, more chemistry, a healthy Terry and Dampier and age… they’ll know there on there last hurrah, they are a good pick for a title next year…if not this.
Lee J. Corwin
http://homepages.wmich.edu/~l4corwin/
What do you mean the bulls won't go over the cap?
They are over the cap as we speak. Do you mean the luxury tax threshold? Even if you mean that, the last time the bulls were in position to win a championship, they consistently had one of the highest payrolls in the league.
Also, as for your positives for the knicks, you make it seem like the knicks will have al harrington, David leeand a ton of cap space. Well resigning those guys would eat into the knicks cap space limiting their ability to sign more guys. And you neglect to mention taj and hinrich in your posioves for the bulls. They’re not great but they’re better than the players the knicks are bringing back.
Brad Miller is god.
Lets not forget Miami: the biggest threat in free agency
-Major market
-Have enough cash to re-sign Wade, bring back Jermaine Oneal with a small contract, and still afford to give a star a max deal
-Michael Beasley (not a star, but he’s also nothing to laugh at)
-Weather (which is annoyingly apparently a factor)
-Girls, girls, girls
-Who doesn’t want to live in Miami?
Why aren't they selling Rose's all star jersey?
This is huge
And I really do think an unfair advantage at this point. We have given Canada special rules to account for their tax differences, why is this not the same for Florida or any other state, considering we all pay different tax rates. If our tax rate goes up to 4% which is being discussed currently, that’s a huge deal when you are talking multi-million dollar contracts.
Not only that, what if you sign with a Florida team, and then are traded to a higher tax rate state, how is that fair to the player? Maybe there already are rules in place and I just couldn’t find them, because I’d think someone would have raised hell by now about being traded from Florida to California (9.55%!!) A forced 10% paycut? Anyone know what the rules are on this?
by Grinder in Training on Mar 11, 2010 8:49 AM CST up reply actions
Re: Bench
This is a non-issue to me. First of all, Miami and the Knicks have even less guys signed then we do, so it’s not really a disadvantage. But regardless, if the Bulls sign a superstar, the bench will be very easy to fill.
It’d have been much easier if we had rid ourselves of Hinrich for expirings / spare parts, and had a bit more cap room, but I guess that wasn’t an option. None the less, every year a few veterans sign for a much lower than expected contract to go for the ring.
If you have Rose, superstar, Deng, Noah + Hinrich, Gibson, JJ, Omer Asik, you already have 8 guys, assuming Asik is any good. Otherwise, you’re looking at 7, but again.. should be alright. If no one wants to sign here for the minimum, you just make some trades for roleplayers. Asik, Charlotte’s first round pick, we have some chips that can be traded for role players if need be. Sure we don’t have second rounders, but we could buy one and throw it into a deal too if we wanted.
JR will go over the cap (if we go the trade route) if we have a superstar and Rose on the team. I don’t know why people complain about him not paying the tax the last 10 years, we weren’t good. There was no reason to, it wouldn’t have got us a championship team.
by Grinder in Training on Mar 11, 2010 8:43 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
Chicken or the egg?
Did Dorf not pay because the team stunk, or did the team stink due to Dorf not paying up?
Otherwise, valid points.
All your base are belong to Vinny.
WTF, VDN, WTF?
Not really chicken or egg
He tried to pay for the real talent, McGrady, etc.. they just didn’t come. After that what talent was available to pay for? Sure there are guys who would make us better if we go over the cap, but anyone would have won us a championship was a max guy.
The guys that put you over the tax are those complementary pieces you add to a great team, the Antawn Jamisons, Derek Fishers, etc.. adding those types of guys would have done nothing but made us a better 5 seed. I’ve never seen any evidence that a Kobe type was available to us and only because of luxury tax issues did we not sign him. If you have any I’ll gladly admit I’m wrong though.
Who did we not pay that would have made us a championship contender I guess is my question? I agree we could have been somewhat better, but not to the point it would have changed the final result.
by Grinder in Training on Mar 11, 2010 12:27 PM CST up reply actions
I agree
I don’t care who you are, if you are the owner of a professional sports team you want to win. Once (if) we get the main pieces, dorf will pay for the other parts.
The only advantage I seeing the Bulls having over the Knicks is talent (maaaaaybe fanbase).
Coach?
GM?
Owner?
Nightlife?
Culture?
Division?
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
That may be true, but talent is a big factor, and the Bulls have a big edge in that category
The Knicks edge in all the other categories is marginal at best, except for coaching, which could swing to a positive for the Bulls depending on who we hire if VDN gets fired.
Brad Miller is god.
Chicago
has just as much culture and nightlife as New York
by QUINTEN DALEY on Mar 12, 2010 10:24 AM CST up reply actions
I'd say not quite as much, but it's pretty damn close.
Brad Miller is god.
by Poloplaya14 on Mar 12, 2010 10:28 AM CST up reply actions
I don't think so. NY is a city above all others
even as a native Chicagoan, I have to admit that.
by Basketball Smurf on Mar 12, 2010 10:52 AM CST up reply actions
Yeah...
Having lived in both places I’d have to give the nod to NYC, and if unlimited funds (ie: what a top NBA player earns) is a factor, I’d have to think NYC is on another level.
How can we have the worst offense in the league when everything about our team owner and coach is offensive?
by Khalid El-Amin on Mar 12, 2010 6:16 PM CST up reply actions
NY is just a different beast altogether. Chicago could fit into a
little section of Brooklyn and there would be plenty of space left for Naperville.
Bosh or Bust
by JockstrapNoah on Mar 14, 2010 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions
I agree it's a big factor. I'm just saying it's the only one that's better, in my opinion.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Some more Knicks negatives
The Knicks will only have 1 first round draft pick in the next 3 years. That one pick, they will most likely have to trade places with Houston. Therefore, they will not be able to draft cheap players to replenish their roster.
James Dolan is a moron. He kept Isiah employed for all those years, after all.
High taxes. One of the great attractions for Miami is that Florida doesnt have state taxes. NY, on the other hand, has very high taxes.
First rd. pick
If you have two of the big FA’s it will not matter in the least how many first round draft picks they have. If they do what they want to do in free agency those picks are going to be in the 20’s anyways.
They don’t need to draft cheap players, they obviously don’t mind spending money.
by Grinder in Training on Mar 12, 2010 9:22 AM CST up reply actions
They can always buy picks.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
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