Vinny Del (insert derogatory phrase Italiano here)
It didn't take long for the Bulls to fall apart. I'm not just talking about the five-game losing streak that has dropped them from the sixth seed in the Eastern Conference (a half game out out of fifth) on Feb. 26 to entirely out of the playoffs at this moment, but the way they unraveled in Tuesday's 132-108 loss to the Utah Jazz.
This was a game that was 77-77 with just over five minutes to play in the third quarter before the Jazz went on a 13-1 run.
Still, an inspired start to the fourth quarter had pulled the Bulls back within six. And that was when Vinny Del Decisione Discutibile dropped a deuce on his team's chances, ultimately leading to the Jazz scoring 11 straight points in the fourth quarter..
Here were the Bulls' possessions to open the fourth quarter:
| Hakim Warrick 3-point play* |
| James Johnson dunk |
| Jannero Pargo misses 3 |
| James Johnson draws shooting foul |
* This was another one of Warrick's plastic-man dunks, and it really seemed to get both the crowd and the team back into it. Watching Warrick go over two guys to throw it down from a pretty good distance, I decided that he has to possess the most inexplicable physical gifts of all time. It's a sort of awkward athleticism, or perhaps an athletic awkwardness, I don't know. He just doesn't look very coordinated or explosive, and yet he's able to pull off these unbelievable dunks. I really have no idea how to describe it, other than that he appears to have limitations that would make such feats impossible.
At this point in the quarter, Warrick had both of the Bulls defensive rebounds, and a lone C.J. Miles free throw was Utah's only point. After Johnson missed his first foul shot, Vinny must've said to himself, "You know what, we might be building some momentum here -- I better do something!" and so in came Brad Miller. For Warrick, who to that point had been the most productive player on the floor.
Basic Coaching 101: When you have a lineup that's working, you shouldn't do anything until it no longer is. You have to ride it out as long as possible, especially when your team as a whole has been struggling so badly. And even if Vinny for some reason felt like he just had to get Brad Miller in there, why take out Warrick when Chris Richard -- who the organization didn't even deem worthy of a roster spot just two weeks ago -- was still in the game? Look at their respective lines:
| Min | Pts | FG | FT | Reb | Ast | Stl | Blk | TO | PF | +/- | |
| Warrick | 29 | 11 | 5-6 | 1-3 | 5 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 3 | 1 | -3 |
| Richard | 17 | 0 | 0-0 | 0-0 | 2 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 5 | -17 |
I've been critical of Warrick's play of late, but this was a game where his production demanded more minutes. (And Richard's less, for that matter.) On the ensuing possession, Richard committed a foul on Mehmet Okur, not surprising as it was somehow his third personal in the first two minutes of the fourth quarter, which showed an admirable level of determination to singlehandedly put the Jazz into the bonus as quickly as possible. At that point, Vinny Del Allenatore Orribile mercifully decided to pull Richard from the game.
But instead of bringing Warrick back, he went to Taj Gibson.
It's worth noting that the foul-prone rookie had already picked up five personals (in just 12 minutes), and was now being re-inserted into the game with over 10 minutes to play. Predictably, It took Gibson just 39 seconds to draw his sixth foul. Although I should mention that he did do so with inexcusable flair.
I don't want to turn this into yet another Taj-Tyrus comp, but for all the talk of Tyrus Thomas' low basketball IQ, I feel like Gibson gets a free pass for his frequent stupid fouls. And what Gibson did in fouling out went beyond stupid. It's a horrible play to foul a 3-point shooter under any circumstances, but for Gibson to leave his feet after an Okur ball fake when he already had five fouls was the definition of a rookie mistake. And knowing Taj was having one of his foul-fest games, why did Vinny go back to him so early in the fourth quarter, especially with Warrick playing so well?
With Gibson now out, Vinny still didn't bring Warrick back -- at this point I was extracting pieces of my remote from my bedroom wall -- and instead turned to a gimpy Luol Deng, who'd earlier added a calf injury to his long list of ailments. But I suppose when you're second-best player's already out, why not risk losing your #3 for a prolonged period of time too?
With 8:33 remaining and the Bulls trailing 99-91, it became clear that Deng couldn't continue, and yet Vinny still gave Warrick the Tyrus Treatment™ and opted to sent Kirk Hinrich in. I had already begun furiously composing this section.
Finally, at 102-91 with 7:45 left, Vinny re-inserted Warrick, but did so at the expense of James Johnson, who was one of the few players on the Bulls showing any sort of pulse.
Before that, I'd been happy to see James Johnson get some quality fourth-quarter minutes. I even liked the play on which he got called for goaltending, which looked a little questionable (the ball might've been at its peak, not coming down). And so I was disappointed to see Vinny yank him after a sequence in which he missed a tip-dunk and then committed a frustration foul in the back court, if only because he'd been so active. Given that the Bulls were (once again) getting killed on the boards, Johnson should have been left in and Hinrich pulled instead.
And somehow, my rage over Vinny's substitutions still had not yet reached its apex.
That would come with 3:26 remaining, when down 120-106, Vinny threw in the towel (Acie Law) and removed Derrick Rose from the game. Yes, the Bulls were down by 14, but there's three-and-a-half minutes remaining. While a comeback is highly unlikely, that's still an eternity in the NBA. During the stoppage of play when Rose was removed, the Bulls were facing a jumpball. Let's say they had gained possession, then sandwiched back-to-back 3s around a defensive stop (and I'm aware of the improbability of that last part alone); now you're down by eight with just under 3 minutes left, which means you've got a real chance. So why are you telling your team that the game is over, when two plays can put you right back into it? This isn't a veteran group that needs to save their legs for the playoffs. This is a young team whose playoffs are right now, a group that hadn't played in three days and has a day off tomorrow. Why just say, We give up when the outcome is still, however slightly, in doubt? I cannot think of a worse message for a coach to send to a young team fighting to stay in the postseason picture.
Not surprisingly, the remaining Bulls displayed no effort the rest of the way, allowing the final nine points of that 11-0 run which made the game seem like much more of a blowout than it was. And once again the coach proved himself to be Vinny Del Sopra La Sua Testa.
A few more notes on the game:
1. After running a layup drill in the third quarter (nine by my count), the Jazz -- or more specifically, CJ Miles -- went on a 3-point tear in the fourth, as Miles buried four in the period including three in a two-minute stretch to keep the Bulls at bay. Miles' display once more put a spotlight on Chicago's dirty little secret: Derrick Rose is still a lousy defender, and isn't really committed at all on that end. Rose had one of the best all-around offensive games of his career, but was a total sieve defensively, and was late getting a hand in Miles' face on several occasions.
Much to my surprise, at the four minute mark of the fourth quarter, Stacey King actually pointed this out:
"The one thing Derrick Rose's game that I'd like to see better [alright, perhaps it wasn't the height of silver-tongued allocution, but stick with it] is his on-the-ball defense. I think watching Deron Williams, and seeing how he approaches the game defensively, I can see Derrick Rose being that type of player defensively. Because he's too good of an athlete, and that's the one part of his game you'd like to see him improve on, and I thought he's gotten better from his first year. He's still got a lot of work to do on that on-the-ball defense. ...
His game is evolving: the jumpshot now is falling. A lot of people said he couldn't shoot the basketball, he's showing he can shoot the basketball now. Teams are no longer able to go underneath the pick and roll and allow him to take that little 18-foot jumpshot, he's making them pay. Now the next step for his game to evolve is to be a very good on-the-ball defender, because he's big, he's strong, he's athletic, and watching a guy like Deron Williams and how he approaches the game, and fights over the screens, Derrick can be that same type of player on the defensive end, and I think he will get there."
Of course later, when Rose sat down for good, King added:
"You know what? Derrick did all he could do. I mean, 25 points, 13 assists."
Uh, didn't you just allude to the fact that he could've done a little something on defense? Like, I don't know, playing some?
2. The Jazz' Wes Matthews had an extremely productive first quarter, during which I heard his name so much I started looking for Ennis Whatley to come in and replace him (kids, ask your parents to explain).
3. Utah's 13-0 run was highlighted by an impressive dunk by Williams over a stunned Rose. I knew Williams was a great player, but I didn't know he was that kind of athlete. Neither did Rose, apparently, as it looked like he didn't really jump his highest. That did, however, result in him getting a very good view of an opposing point guard making the type of explosive play that has become his calling card.
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nice recap
I too bounced off the wall a couple of times when he pulled the starters at 3:26…ummm, really? It wasn’t like the lead was 20+
I recall Vinny doing something similar last season as well.
Post-game, he was even more clueless. Mark and Kendall gave him an excuse, saying that he sounded down and dejected. But he just sounded clueless to me.
I really hope you enjoy these last 19 games Vinny…they’ll be your last
I was also surprised at the towel being thrown with so much time left in the 4th, esp at home
WTF, VDN, WTF?
Like reading all of the posts by MrSportsknowitall… great summary of the fallacies in this one game by Vinny. But it is one sample of many WTF moments and decisions. This post could be written for every game, with the details changed slightly.
All your base are belong to Vinny.
He knows his limits
What could he possibly do? Coach this team to a come-from-behind victory?
by drew gooden's facial growth on Mar 12, 2010 12:07 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Great post.....I do disagree about Derrick's defensive of late and against Utah
The CJ Miles barrage was not necesarily a product of Derrick or Kirk or anyone else not defending him per say. The Bulls perimeter players play the kind of help defense (by design) where they sag off their man and into the paint (or the closest big down low) if they’re on the opposite side of the ball. They’ve actually been employing this since the beginning of the year. They just don’t play good cutting/passing teams (like say Western conference teams) with any regularity, so they don’t get exposed as much.
Utah passes well, but more importantly, they move without the ball especially well. On most of Utah’s perimeter FG attempts, our guys were recovering from help back to their man to challenge the shot… only to see it drop through the bottom of the net.
In general, I think Derrick has been better this year than last, but definitely has a ways to go. I don’t think he’s still in the “lousy defender” category. To some extent, its probably a conundrum b/c you can’t ask him to expend so much energy penetrating on offense (given there’s no structure or plays to give him relief on that end) and then ask him to go back on the other end to fight off of pick ‘n rolls all day. Truthfully, the same can be said of Kirk. You can’t assign him to the top perimeter player and then ask him to make a bunch of plays on the other end. You need a structure that involves movement, cuts, the whole nine to generate some relief, so the guards aren’t stuck dribbling the ball for 20 seconds.
The difference between Deron and Derrick on their respective turns on offense was there were plenty of possessions where the former could simply keep his dribble and just pass to the open cutter, flasher, or whomever was open on the perimeter. The Jazz have so many players active on offense its that much harder to defend and help on Deron. Conversely, the Bulls are fairly limited in what they do offensively, so by the second half, the Jazz were much more aggressive in successfully helping and occassionally forcing TOs on Derrick. In other words, you almost have to ask yourself would both Deron and Derrick have had the same performance (offense/defense) if you did nothing but had them switch teams.
"Some people want it to happen, some wish it would happen, others make it happen." - Michael Jordan
I agree completely
I think Vinny’s biggest failure as a coach is his craptastic offensive schemes (or lack thereof). His lineup decisions aren’t that bad; every coach in the league makes his share of screwy decisions in that regard. Defensively, our schemes aren’t half-bad, although I think a lot of that credit should go to Bernie Bickerstaff. But offensively, we’re a joke, despite having one of the most explosive players in the NBA and a decent amount of talent around him.
Brad Miller is god.
I couldn't agree more with your analysis. But the bottom line is
Sloan is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>more than Vinny.
If you can't answer a man's arguments, all is not lost. You can still call him vile names.
Elbert Hubbard
by Tyrusmancrush on Mar 18, 2010 8:45 PM CDT up reply actions
Couple questions
1. Why is Warrick such a priority when you’re down and trying to rally when he’s so bad defensively, according to your prior posts on the subject? Sure, he can score, but if he can’t defend, then there’s no net positive to him being in. (Correct me if I’m wrong, but his +/- WAS still in the negative, despite what offense he brought.)
2. Who is he going to insert to take Richard’s place? Or do you suggest that Warrick was going to guard his man? Matchups still matter.
3. Why should I give Tyrus Thomas a pass and not Taj Gibson for ‘rookie mistakes’, given that Thomas is now a mutli-year veteran at the NBA level and is supposed to have some idea what he’s doing, and Gibson is a rookie who’s injured and very probably hitting the rookie wall?
I’m not the world’s biggest fan of VDN, by any means, but he’s stuck between a rock and a hard place, with what you’ve described previously as a terrible defensive team without Noah and needing to get stops, which (outside for that small run at the start of the fourth) this team was clearly incapable of doing, given Utah’s EFF for the game. His best defensive players are all either gimpy or gone, and yet he has to cobble together something that can stop a top-6 team in the NBA.
[...]when Giants coach Steve Owen, a certified defensive genius, was asked how he planned to stop Nagurski, he said: "With a shotgun, as he’s leaving the dressing room."
Couple answers
1. Warrick was a priority because he was playing well. At the point when he came out in the fourth quarter, his +/- to that point was something like (I can no longer access it) +6 or 7. Even though his final +/- was -3, he played 29 minutes in a game they lost by 24. So in the 15 minutes he was off the court, the team was a -21. Other than Luol Deng (-4 in a 32 minutes), everyone who played double digit minutes was in the double-digit negatives. So while he might not have been a net positive, he was a hell of a lot closer than most anyone else.
2. Matchups do still matter, which is why it made no sense to have Miller and Richard in there simultaneously, as they are this team’s de facto centers and rarely play together; if Miller was going to come in — a move I disagree with in itself for momentum-killing-based reasons — it should have been for Richard. Besides, how does bringing in Taj to guard Richard’s man differ significantly from Warrick, or better yet, a gimpy Luol Deng once Taj quickly fouled out?
3. I never said give Tyrus a free pass and not Taj. That would be as ridiculous as what is happening now. Yes, Taj is a rookie, but he’s a year older than Thomas and he spent the previous two years playing 30+ minutes/game for a big-time conference college team, while Tyrus was thrown back to the bench every time he made even the slightest mistake. Their experience levels aren’t as disparate as you think. And do you believe that nobody at ‘SC told Taj not to leave his feet on ball fakes or foul a 3-point shooter? Or that he didn’t learn that in high school, or even before that? Since Tyrus was never been handed the kind of opportunity Taj has gotten, now that it’s 60 games in, shouldn’t they be treated the same?
4. (even though you didn’t put yours as #4). They are a terrible defensive team. And Warrick is no more terrible than any of the rest of them, so shouldn’t Vinny have been playing him as he was his most efficient offensive player (11 points on 6 FGA)? And given that the “team was clearly incapable of” getting stops, why fiddle with a lineup that was getting some, over however short a duration it might have been?
by MrSportsKnowItAll.com on Mar 11, 2010 12:15 PM CST up reply actions
Access to it
http://popcornmachine.net/cgi-bin/gameflow.cgi?date=20100309&game=UTHCHI
You can see each stint’s plus-minus by hovering over each player’s little colored bar.
You can add up his plus-minus in those all stints up to that point in the fourth. It comes out to +6. His last stint when he came back in was -9 which comes out to -3 overall, his plus-minus of the night.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Thanks Ty
Very cool site, and I bookmarked it for future use. Definitely will come in handy.
by MrSportsKnowItAll.com on Mar 11, 2010 1:36 PM CST up reply actions
You know
I have been the sole defender of VDN on this site but I have to say you are right on the money here. First Pargo should NEVER be on the floor. Second VDN does piss me off when he subs out players that are actually keeping us in the game seems to be no rhyme or reason to it. You are right on the money there.
Can everyone just shut the fuck up about that marginal player no longer on our team. Im sorry but enough is enough already! GET OVER IT. I wish him the best and hope he does well but please go TO THE BOBCATS BLOG and write about him there.
The Dude Abides
by Savage23 on Mar 11, 2010 12:51 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
I've been a defender of VDN
And still am.
He ain’t perfect no, but he does continually get us playing hard….and with a team that has had so many back breaking defeats in the last 2 years, that says quite a bit.
Ultimately it’s on the players and the GM’s to find talent that can play hard and win. We’ve got guys that continue to play hard, but not the talent (esp right now) to win.
No coach can really assume to take a Rose-Hinrich-Warrick-34? Miller-Murray lineup to beat the Jazz, Mavs, etc….it was miraculous we were that close with Deng going down late in the 3rd, Taj being hurt and playing hurt….
This time I don’t blame Gar/Pax either right now because they did the latest decimation for 2010, which is coming….
7/1/2010: D. Wade comes back home
I agree with you.
I consistently have said I don’t think in VDNs first two years have been terrible. First year getting a young team into the playoffs after they missed it the prior year I think that is a heck of an accomplishment for a rookie head coach. I think he has done pretty good. His method of subbing lately, however has been pissing me off a bit. Just an area I think he could improve on.
The Dude Abides
There's more than coaching than getting players to play hard
A good coach instills schemes that maximize offensive and defensive efficiency based on the personnel he has to work with. VDN has not done that this year on the offensive end. I’m not expecting the Bulls to be an elite offensive unit, because they simply don’t have that kind of talent, but I think we could reasonably expect this team to at least be middle-of-the-pack. Instead, we’ve been near the bottom all year. For example, it’s inexcusable that Deng routinely ends up taking long 2-pointers where if he’d literally take a single step back, he’d be shooting a much higher percentage 3-ball. I blame that on coaching.
Brad Miller is god.
Bulls
Have no inside game or 3 pt shooters….
He hasn’t been dealt a good hand.
Before all these injuries after the start of the year abysmality, our O improved quite a bit actually….and really besides today against one of the better D teams in the league with all our injuries, our O was good the past 5 games.
We’re a bottom all year O team first because Salmons had his head in his ass the first 20 games, Rose was hurt the first 20 games, Deng was trying to figure out how to play again and learn to play with guys he didn’t really play with last year because of injuries, and Taj was a rookie and Tyrus got hurt….all the first month and a half.
We adj and we had a string there of 100+ pt wins and very solid D…..took guys getting healthy and esp Rose getting healthy.
Deng’s been a long 2 pter since the Skiles days. Skiles literally stopped Deng from ever trying the 3 pt shot. He’s been shooting a few more here and there than he did before….Even still Deng’s range is a few feet in from the 3 pt shot where he’s rather good….why mess with a good thing? I do agree he should work to incorporate that more…but ultimately I’d rather Deng be less jump shotty as it is and focus on taking it a bit more to the paint where in the few times he’s done throughout his career, he’s done quite well….and he has made strides in that dept.
Our O was fantastic last season post the big trades because we had a legit 3 pt shooter, a good driver who could jump shoot a bit and nail a 3 (Salmons), a nice high post passer who hadn’t lost the last 1.5 steps he has this year (Miller) and a burgeoning transition attacker in Derrick.
Losing BG and replacing him with Pargo and a hope and a dream was a lot to overcome for our club, especially when all but Rose were conditioned to just let BG do his thing int he 4th for their 4-5 previous years….
Ultimately the team was set up to fail to start the year, we got the team though to perform and gel when they got T2 back for a bit, then we traded Salmons (legitimate starter/6th man on pretty much any team in this league) and Tyrus (same thing) for mostly crap expirings and a guy in Warrick who is like a Pargo at the 4 spot though because of his diminutive size isn’t a defender and we lost another shot blocker….
I do think Warrick is decent overall (unlike Pargo) but he’s best as a 20 minute guy to get you points in stretches against second units….
7/1/2010: D. Wade comes back home
by majoyenrac on Mar 11, 2010 11:22 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Disagree on a number of points
“Have no inside game or 3-pt shooters”
Deng has shown to be able to shoot a good % from 3, but he rarely takes them. In the Skiles days, he shot a very low percentage from beyond the arc, so he shouldn’t have been taking 3s. Now, he shoots a much higher, and rather good percentage, so he should be averaging more than just barely over 1 3-pt attempt per game. I blame that on the system, which emphasizes the long 2. And Warrick and Taj have both shown the ability to post up weaker players, but because of Vinny’s insistence on going small a lot, they rarely get the opportunity to do so.
You say Salmons had his head in his ass the first 20 games. I say he was put in a position by VDN where he would be ineffective. Salmons is not quick enough to score in isolation against most 2 guards in the league. At the 3, the jabstep/step-back jumper would work because most 3s would have to respect his jabstep as they weren’t quick enough to guard him, but at the 2, his jabstep got no respect. Yet, Salmons kept getting the ball and trying this. I good coach would’ve but a stop to that.
You say Rose was hurt the first 20 games/Deng was rusty, Taj was a rookie/TT was out Yes, those were big reasons for the Bulls’ struggles, but even after those first 20 games, we still were playing much worse than we should’ve been.
And then you bring up last seaso. Even with BG in fold, Salmons playing his natural position, and a better version of Miller, we still were only an average offensive team.
Brad Miller is god.
by Poloplaya14 on Mar 12, 2010 12:34 AM CST up reply actions
Deng's a 30% career 3pt shooter
I know his current avg is abit better, but he’s not realy shooting too many attempts, so who knows…and why are we assuming Deng will be aggressive? He never is, andhe might not be making the most of his opps….that’s not something new.
Salmons was put in a position by GAR to be ineffective. He was great as a 3rd pony slashing SF. Unfortunately that role is taken byt he $72M man for good measure, and we tried to make Salmons more of a spot up Ben Gordon type because that was the need for our team.
Last season we really came on after the trade, before the trade we were abysman (but remember we had Drew Gooden as our best post scoring threat for over half the year).
7/1/2010: D. Wade comes back home
He had a better team last year and still couldn't do anything.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
We played a very strong
Celtics team, one that took the ECF Magic to 7 games following.
I’d say giving us the most entertaining NBA playoff series of our lifetime perhaps is something…..esp when we relied so heavily on a burgeoning rookie and 2nd year players and had a backcourt featuring a 6 ft3 and probably 6 ft SG….and had a legitimate talent (Luol Deng) go down to injury….
7/1/2010: D. Wade comes back home
That was not a strong Celtics team
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
It did take Orlando 7 games to beat them
And this was after the epic 7 game, 7 OT series againt the Bulls. It’s certainly reasonable to think that if they had say beat the Bulls in 5 games, they could have beaten the Magic. I think Cleveland would have beaten them regardless, but even without KG the Celtics were the 2nd or 3rd best team in the East. With KG they were one of the top 3 teams in the league, but they were still a very good team without him, just not elite.
Having said all that, I don’t see where Vinny really deserves the credit for the Bulls being able to push the C’s so hard. The abscence of KG forced the C’s to play a more uptempo style and outscore their opponent, rather than locking them down defensively. So they were basically FORCED to play the Bulls style, and that is what kept the Bulls in it. VDN didn’t have to make any adjustments at all, Doc Rivers is the one who had to make adjustments on the fly.
I would add that
The Bulls were whipping their inferior competition down the stretch and even beat a few giants (Cleveland and the Magic if I remember) post trade (I know we also lost by 20 to the Magic, but the Magic are such a different team when all their 3’s hit, and they did in that other game).
7/1/2010: D. Wade comes back home
And you know that because???
Davis was in shape and fit in just fine with them. Pierce was a year younger, Allen was playing then like he’s done the last few weeks, Rondo was Rondo, Perkins was Porkinsingly good….
To each their own.
7/1/2010: D. Wade comes back home
Seriously???
That was not a strong Celtics team
Even without KG they are a playoff team better than us.
LOL..
Now I know why I disagree with almost anything you say. You are irrational. Getting to the playoffs with a young team that missed it the year before and almost defeating the Celtics minus Garnett was an accomplishment. Fans like you will always see the cup as half empty.
The Dude Abides
that reply was to tygers responses
The Dude Abides
Well said majoyenrac!
I think we were set up to fail with our lack of depth/talent as well.
The Dude Abides
The thing is
I can accept that right now post the latest trades.
I still don’t really get the Tyrus trade though….because wtih Tyrus we’d have another body and an asset to package in a sign and trade deal (with Deng, etc) if say Wade or Bosh want to leave but want that 6 year contract and Riley/Colangelo don’t want to give them anything….
But oh well. I think with Tyrus we’d be a little better served than the current crop to make the playoff push and we could still have the opp to sign him if all else failed.
Oh well. I get those trades because we’re so close to the 2010 year. It’s just odd that they depleted the frontcourt further fully knowing Taj and especially Noah were dealing with plantar facitis.
Perhaps we want to tank for atop 10 pick?
I meant he product we have even with Rose (Rose-Hinrich-Johnson-a gimpy Taj-Miller-Warrick-Pargo-Flip) is perhaps the worst product we’ve had since the 2000 year….and if Rose is out, wow….
7/1/2010: D. Wade comes back home
I think
Taj deserves to be given a free pass on fouls compared to Tyrus. I know they’re a similar age, but Tyrus has had 4 years to learn the speed of the NBA and how fouls are called. Taj is a rookie. Learning how to stay out of foul trouble is one of the more predictable improvements NBA players make as they gain more experience.
Let me be clear about something
It’s not that I think that what Taj does is inexcusable; it’s not. He makes rookie mistakes. But if the primary talking points in Taj’s superiority over Tyrus are the latter’s “low basketball IQ” and Taj playing a “smarter” game, then that should actually be the case, regardless of either’s experience level. (And the improvements you speak of won’t be as drastic when you’re dealing with a 24-year-old rookie.)
Let me say it again: Taj has been surprisingly productive this season, far exceeding virtually anybody’s expectations. But it’s absurd that the Bulls’ talking heads paint him as the team’s ideal power forward without acknowledging that he does, in fact, have some pretty sizable flaws.
by MrSportsKnowItAll.com on Mar 11, 2010 4:35 PM CST up reply actions 5 recs
Age isn't everything
Just because he’s 24 years old, that doesn’t mean his development curve is on par with most other 24-year-old basketball players. If that was the case, he’d probably have entered the NBA earlier.
He may be older than TT, but he’s had significantly less basketball experience at a high level.
Brad Miller is god.
So, he doesn't know what he's doing as well?
his bball IQ isn’t as high?
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Never said that
I just said compared to most other 24-year-olds he has less experience since most guys enter th league before age 23, and therefore can reasonably be expected to have more room for growth than a lot of other 24-year-olds. Let’s not make this into a TT vs Taj argument.
Brad Miller is god.
I think it already was, and you jumped in it knowing that full well.
Sheesh.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
No it wasn't
Well it might’ve been between the other two, but I just wanted to point out that Taj is less experienced than most 24-year-olds. I regret mentioning TT at all. All I’m saying is that the vast majority of NBA players are drafted at age 22 at the latest, so by age 24, they’ve had 1-4 years of playing at the highest level there is and being coached by, presumably, the best coaches there are (obviously there are exceptions). So to expect Taj, who has less than 1 year in the NBA, to be at the same level as most 24-year-olds is an unfair expectation.
Brad Miller is god.
by Poloplaya14 on Mar 12, 2010 10:19 AM CST up reply actions
The reason I brought up Taj's age
Wasn’t to imply that he should be as advanced as a 24-year-old Jermaine O’Neal or Dwight Howard; that would be wholly unfair, as they had each had at least five NBA seasons in the books at that age. My point was that the trajectory of Taj’s progress will be much flatter than a 19, 20, or 21-year-old rookie, because at those ages players still have much more physical development ahead of them. And so while Taj will improve over the next few years, anyone expecting his game to make a quantum leap will be sorely disappointed.
by MrSportsKnowItAll.com on Mar 12, 2010 11:25 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
That's true
But some people seem to be under the impression that he’s not gonna improve at all, which is not the case. He’s gonna be a much better player when he manages to avoid the dumb fouls that are plaguing him now (that + the fact that he’ll get a little more respect from the refs as a veteran).
Brad Miller is god.
by Poloplaya14 on Mar 12, 2010 11:31 AM CST up reply actions
Taj will be
like a Horace Grant at the high end and an early 30’s Joe Smith at the low end of his potential.
by QUINTEN DALEY on Mar 12, 2010 1:25 PM CST up reply actions
well
the term IQ is about raw intelligence, potential for learning. A fifth grader often is more often than not going to know more than a first grader who has a high IQ. But the first grader will learn faster and eventually surpass him.
I’m not saying Taj has a higher basketball IQ, just that you can’t accurately judge it yet. Thomas, on the other hand, can be judged fairly well, although I still think with good coaching he can overcome that.
So his IQ is low but he still has good learning potential?
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
by tyger1147 on Mar 12, 2010 11:10 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Who Cares?
Not me…No response will satisfy you anyways
The Dude Abides
by Savage23 on Mar 12, 2010 12:10 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Ahhh.... now you're just trolling.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
The truth behind the statement
remains in tact.
The Dude Abides
by Savage23 on Mar 12, 2010 2:36 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I think you do care.
Thus, the continued responses.
But you are right. Nothing you say will satisfy me in any meaningful way.
I’m guess I’m just tired of the whole, “I DON’T CARE AND I’M GOING TO TELL YOU HOW MUCH I DON’T CARE AND THEN I’M GOING TO TELL YOU NOT TO CARE JUST LIKE I DON’T CARE BECAUSE I DON’T CARE AND YOU HAVE TO BE LIKE ME BECAUSE I CAN’T STOP FROM NOT CARING SO MUCH THAT I HAVE TO KEEP TELLING YOU HOW MUCH I DON’T CARE SO DON’T CARE BECAUSE I CAN’T HELP MYSELF FROM NOT CARING SO DAMNED MUCH.” thing.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
by tyger1147 on Mar 12, 2010 5:02 PM CST up reply actions 5 recs
That's the best post I've read all day
Joakim on whether he ever tried tennis: "I played a little bit. If anybody on the Bulls wanted to play me, I would kick their ass."
You're overstating the point...
First, every NBA player commits a truly dumb foul now and then. The one of Taj’s was a standout, and no one is looking to excuse it, but it was anything but typical. In fact, a strong case could be made that he has done a good job of slowing his rate of fouls, and he is frequently called for fouls that established players probably wouldn’t be called for.
Furthermore, he is obviously a smarter player than Thomas, and one terrible game (or terrible foul) mean nothing in the overall scheme of things.
If you want to argue that TT’s low b-ball IQ is overstated, then make your case based on TT’s performance. Taj has played very well for the Bulls, and his occasional mistakes are irrelevant in the TT discussion.
by badnewsintennisshoes on Mar 12, 2010 12:32 PM CST up reply actions
Thank you for telling me how I can present an argument
The point was that the two were being viewed through an entirely different lens, which mean’s Taj’s mistakes are hardly irrelevant. Besides, are you saying this site needs more TT’s-low-b-ball-IQ-is-overstated posts? I’m sorry, but I’m not going to restate arguments that I and others have made ad nauseum because you think that’s the way the discussion should be framed.
by MrSportsKnowItAll.com on Mar 12, 2010 2:32 PM CST up reply actions
I am with you here.
To attack Taj who like him or not has exceeded expectations just to prove a point about that other player is not the right path to take.
Why can’t some of us be happy that a rookie is exceeding expectations and playing through injury to try and help our club?
The Dude Abides
Hold on a second, Savage
When did I attack Taj? I just wrote essentially the same thing you did:
Let me say it again: Taj has been surprisingly productive this season, far exceeding virtually anybody’s expectations.
This wasn’t supposed to be about Taj or Tyrus, per se, but about the respective coverage/perception of each.
by MrSportsKnowItAll.com on Mar 12, 2010 2:50 PM CST up reply actions
Yes, but...
you also focused a single dumb foul which doesn’t in any way typify Taj’s decision making on the court.
I agree that he has weaknesses at this stage, and he will never be a transcendent star, but there isn’t a rookie in the league – let alone a lowish first-round pick – that hasn’t committed dumb fouls.
by badnewsintennisshoes on Mar 12, 2010 2:58 PM CST up reply actions
That is true
But most guys chosen in that area aren’t painted with the sure-he’s-a-rookie-but-he-plays-like-a-10-year-veteran brush. And that’s definitely not Taj’s fault, which is why I didn’t intend to point my finger at him, but at the people who are creating this mythological figure.
Obviously this is a very rich subject, with inflamed passions on both sides. Because there’s been so much discussion here, I’m going to cover it a little more in-depth in my next post.
by MrSportsKnowItAll.com on Mar 12, 2010 3:10 PM CST up reply actions
Ok...
It’s a rather complicated subject. Perhaps some fans are exaggerating Taj’s actual accomplishments because he has in fact overachieved based on expectations. But if you do explore the topic in depth, be sure not to veer off in the other direction.
I say that because the Tyrus boosters have been at least equally guilty of exaggerating his value vis-a-vis Taj, and I’d prefer not to have to poke any more holes in that type of inflated rhetoric.
by badnewsintennisshoes on Mar 12, 2010 3:21 PM CST up reply actions
Oh, and...
we’re on exactly the same page re: VDN.
The potential silver lining to the likelihood that the Bulls will struggle the rest of the season is that it will enhance the chances of a coaching change. Had they remained healthy and made the playoffs, etc., VDN might well have gotten too much credit.
by badnewsintennisshoes on Mar 12, 2010 3:24 PM CST up reply actions
maybe I misunderstood some of your points.
However, as badnews mentioned I too am just a bit tired of having to “poke holes” through arguments that overstate what that player did or could do for our team. I think Taj and the other player should be judged on their own not against each other.
I don’t think Taj is a superstar or anything I just admire his effort to prove he belongs and help the team in a time of need. He’s played through injury because we have no alternatives and done a pretty good job I was merely trying to point that out.
The Dude Abides
Why does he have to be "smarter" than Tyrus?
Seems like a pointless attack at a former player. Everytime I hear someone praise Taj, they never praise him for his actual ability. Every positive comment is about his “hustle” or “smarts.” It’s as if people watch the games, see Taj playing well, but they can’t actually describe what he does well.
by Ozzie Montana on Mar 13, 2010 3:11 PM CST up reply actions
"they can't actually describe what he does well."
Ain’t that the truth.
Apparently when he does something really stupid from a basketball standpoint he does it with less flair *, and therefore must have a higher bball IQ than his predecessor.
- except for his scowl while almost spitting out his mouthpiece as he drools in anger and disbelief whenever getting whistled for a foul or having his shot attempt blocked on the other end with no foul called. It makes him look like a younger version of a bald headed old man whose false teeth keep coming loose as he’s practically choking on a cheap set of ill fitting molars. Not a pretty sight, sports fans. At least when Tyrus got excited for good or bad, fans got to see his shiny set of pearly whites and healthy gums staring into the camera.
If you can't answer a man's arguments, all is not lost. You can still call him vile names.
Elbert Hubbard
by Tyrusmancrush on Mar 18, 2010 9:16 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I can actually describe what he can do well.
He’s a good rebounder, evidenced by the fact that out of the 171 players who have averaged 25+mpg in at least 40 games this year, Taj ranks 30th in TRB% at 15.3, right behind Kevin Garnett (15.3), Chris Kaman (15.4), and Al Horford (15.6), all of whom played in the all-star game. He’s an even better shot-blocker, ranked 16th among those 171 players in blocks/40 min at 1.77. And despite the fact that he’s an rookie, he avoids making most typical rookie mistakes, evidenced statistically by his above league-average turnover rate (2.2/40 min compared to the league average of 2.3/40 min for all PFs) and evidenced anecdotally by his ability to rotate effectively and maintain proper position on defense (yes this is a valid point, despite the lack of a valid statistic to measure it).
Brad Miller is god.
by Poloplaya14 on Mar 19, 2010 12:18 AM CDT up reply actions 3 recs

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