The True State of this Franchise
by RyPac13 on Feb 7, 2010 3:43 PM CST
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Where to begin? We'll start here:
Player Development
We had a young, raw draft pick a few years back. A big man who wasn't ready for minutes. He didn't have much offensive ability and couldn't hold his own on defense. But he was a big body that showed some promise. The coaching staff developed him slowly, giving him some minutes, but not a ton. He was a very emotional player by all accounts. Last year, the team got him to work with a personal coach on fitness, and he started to develop. As he played better, his minutes were increased, but he wasn't benched in favor of worse players throughout his career. He's now playing very well, and while his only offense is really garbage baskets, he's starting to show signs of a bit of an offensive game. And while he's not the most dominant center defensively, and is regularly dominated by other centers, he does grab rebounds and he's more than just a big body (Gray) or lazy defender (Miller). This player is Joakim Noah.
Which brings me to Tyrus.
Tyrus was a gamble type pick. A very young, immature player that showed tons of upside. There are two things clear to me about Tyrus Thomas:
1) He has not filled the upside nor promise that he showed. He still takes bad shots, he doesn't always hustle, and his head isn't always in the game.
2) He hasn't been given the same set of rules that other young talents (Rose and Noah mostly) received as young developing players. I'm not talking about minutes. Tyrus has had enough minutes to live up to his promise. He hasn't. In that department he has clearly failed, he is not the player you expect to receive with a top five draft pick. However, he has clearly improved and is actually a decent power forward. He doesn't take as many bad jumpers as he did last year, or the year before. He's more in control around the rim with the ball, though he still has work to do. But he's good at garbage buckets, he has an idea of what to do with his physical traits when he's near the rim (strong dunks that draw contact or force the ball in the hole). He's also a fairly solid defensive player.
Why is Tyrus handled so differently?
While I share in the frustrations of Tyrus not living up to his potential, he is clearly our best power forward. Noah is our best Center as such he clearly warrants 35+ minutes a night when healthy. But why isn't Tyrus getting at least 25 minutes a night? Our rookie PF isn't the best offensive player. He has a lot of holes on defense. He gets frustrated at times, misses assignments, settles for the wrong shot, yet we stick with him and actually increase his minutes.
It can't just be an attitude problem. Noah yells and screams at nobody in particular all the time. Miller harasses the refs on just about every call that doesn't go his way. Hinrich takes out his anger on the opposing team. Rose bottles up his anger it seems. But we work with, we tolerate, we accommodate all of those player's particular negative emotions. Tyrus seems to get angier at the coach when he shows frustration. How many times have we seen Miller or Noah get a technical or slam the ball in anger and frustration? We stick with those guys, and rightfully so. When they play, they are given the minutes the deserve on this team, it warrants their talent. But Tyrus is treated differently, he is benched when he doesn't hustle (Miller regularly will dog it). He's benched when he shows frustration on the court (the previously mentioned players are not to that extent). So what's the deal?
The coaching failures
A lot of the blame has to fall on Vinny Del Negro. Not all of it (we'll get to that part), but much of the current blame. Remember when he started benching Rose last year at the end of games? John Paxson had to publicly assure the media that Rose would be playing at the end of games. This is the rookie of the year we're talking about. Benched by the coach at the end of games in what was clearly a development year. The only thing that really prevented this was the general manager intervening.
There is no such intervention in the case of Tyrus Thomas. The coach is left to do what he feels is best, and that is clearly to play the 2nd best PF on our team for more minutes than he should. Tyrus is left to get inconsistent minutes, which will stifle any more progression and further alienate the player. If a player is benched and truly should be benched, it won't matter if he gets upset, he can go home. It won't have an impact on the team if he deserved to not have any minutes in the first place, since any value he had would've been utilized by giving him minutes in the first place, thus not causing the player to cause a fuss. No doubt Tyrus should not handle things this way, but how often do we see players get emotional? We're talking about players that go from being broke to millionaires in their late teens to early twenties, put on a stage in front of 20,000 people a night, not to mention many multiples more that watch the game. These are players that are often getting their egos stroked, and Tyrus' reaction to receiving less than adequate minutes is similar to dozens of players in the last few years. It's a poor reaction, no doubt, but it is a reaction. And in this case, he is reacting to a larger failure. Two wrongs do not make a right, I want to make that clear. Tyrus is not excused, but his problems are nowhere near the scope of the other problems this franchise has.
How do other teams handle these situations?
Andre Miller recently went off on his coach at practice. He tore into him for a solid 30 minutes by all reports, with things said that could not be printed. What happened in that situation? Did he get benched? Fined? Blamed?
None of the above. The general manager came out and said that this was normal. That frustrations build and it is normal to release these in a private situation, rather than on the court during a game. The coach and the player found common ground. They spoke privately and you know what? They realized that they were both very competitive, emotional and stubborn people. And they have thrived ever since. This is how you handle a situation with two MEN not being on the same page.
But there is no such handling of this situation by our general managers. No such handling of the situation by our coach. And that is where this situation is truly unfortunate, and truly fails the team and the fans.
So where do we go from here?
When your team underperforms for a year, you can blame the players for a lot of it. When it happens for multiple years, you can start to really put the blame on the coach's head. When it happens for about 5 years, the general manager is clearly at fault. But when it happens for over a decade? The blame goes higher, to the owner, to Jerry Reinsdorf. You can't tolerate nor accept this situation Jerry. Most teams struggle as a result of things such as a small market, little profit available to the team and an unattractive city that big time players don't want to live in. We're ahead of the game in EVERY one of these areas. The most profitable team, third largest city, very attractive and often filled stadium and very little competition in surrounding markets.
I don't want to be sitting around in 30 years explaining to my kids or grandkids why the Bulls stink. Why people from other cities say "sorry" or "my team's problems are minuscule compared to what you go through" every time they talk basketball. I don't want to be the Chicago Cubs, talking about what happened over 50 years ago. I don't want to have to say "yea, back 50 years ago when I was younger, we had this guy named Jordan, oh you had to see him to believe it." That's not exciting, that's history. It was exciting, but it already happened. We need realistic hope, we need people doing the right thing. And the right thing is not being done.
Yet we're still in an incredible position with a very profitable team, a few young talents, high attendance and a lot of expiring contracts that are more valuable than usual, thanks to a tough economy. The only thing I ask the management, is to think through your decision. Don't make the same mistake teams make when signing players such as Dampier, Turkolu, Dalembert, Maggette, Baron Davis, Stephon Marbaury or Peja to ridiculous contracts. You have an opportunity that other franchises can only dream of having, don't continue to waste it.
And start holding your management accountable for the way they handle this team. If you can't publicly deny that you're talking to other coaches or that you have your coach's back, fire him. If you can't develop talent, get somebody who can. If you can't make the right free agent signings (Hello Ben Wallace), get somebody in there that can. This team hasn't failed us because the players don't listen, it's the people who run the team that have failed us.
I don't want to be a Cubs Fan, please stop turning this franchise into the equivalent of the Chicago Cubs, and learn to deal with players properly.
A final plea to the readers
It paints me to see people tearing each other up over the Tyrus Thomas situation. It's clear that Thomas has underperformed as a player. But it's also clear that management has turned what should be an underperforming player, contributing at his current skill level, to a joke of a circus. If you don't want to resign your player, don't resign him. But as long as you're paying him, play him relative to his value. If you don't want Tyrus taking long jumpers, say so. But Vinny is the first one to tell the media how he encourages Tyrus to take shots. He told us that all last year, as we put our faces into our palms every time he took an 18 footer. Deng does the same thing, and now Rose is being encouraged to do similar things. Look at their stats, they have some of the worst mid range stats in the league. A good coach would discourage players from settling for those shots. A good GM would make sure that the coach did. A good owner makes sure that the chain of command works that way. We have failures on multiple levels.
So blog a bull readers. Please don't harass each other. Please don't argue about Tyrus. Place the blame where it belongs. Tyrus is nothing more than a player that did not live up to his draft status. He's not useless, nor is he a star. He would probably play 15-20 minutes a game on most teams, with more competent management in place. On our team, with the only other option being a rookie who is clearly a back of the rotation player (which is fine, he's a 26th draft pick for goodness sakes! He's doing well for where he was selected, I like Taj), Tyrus clearly warrants at least 25 minutes on a consistent basis. He's not as good as Noah is, relative to his position and our other options, but he probably isn't going to whine like a baby or privately bash his coach if he's getting the type of playing time that he deserves.
I was reading what is currently the most popular Tyrus post just a minute ago. The consensus is that Tyrus probably won't play for the Bulls another minute, that that relationship is beyond repair. I can agree with that. But let me ask you this: Can the management, the way they are currently set up (with VDN as coach) handle Andre Miller? Can they handle Josh Smith? Could they even handle Kobe Bryant? Or Pau Gasol complaining (rightfully so) about a lack of touches? I'm not so sure that they could, and that's the real problem here. There are always players that require a different sort of attention. With the rest of the roster, they are more or less handled decently, at least in a way that they can get on the court. With Tyrus, the management has failed. They've failed him and they've failed us, and frankly that is a damn shame.
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Nice Post dude
Yer and i think your right with most of what you said. Tyrus needs more motivation than a normal player. He needs playing time and confidence to get back to where he was last season.
by rick_ross on Feb 7, 2010 3:54 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
really cause i think the millions of dollars he gets a year should be motivation enough
by Teh Immortal Batman on Feb 7, 2010 9:05 PM CST up reply actions
I agree but..
You can say that about like 99% of the players out there.
Why do players get technicals for arguing on our team? They get millions and arguing only causes damage.
Players (and coaches) do stupid things across all sports.
I think bottom line is that they’re human. We call them stupid, but odds are if average people filled in for NBA players one year and got paid the same, there would be just as many “stupid” things happening. Humans are imperfect, even very good sports stars.
You’d think Vinny would be able to handle criticism in private, at practice for the million or so we give him too, eh? I guess we should pay him more like Nate McMillan, our bad.
Thank you.
I think his injury set him back quite a bit this year, but with VDN already fooling around with “I’m going to start Taj” talk back in preaseason, this was a recipe for disaster from the start.
What scares me, is that this could have happened to Noah as well. Success isn’t based on working only with the players who are easiest to work with. Noah wasn’t the easiest to work with, but look how long it took before he was at least competent enough to warrant a starting job? Why didn’t the Bulls get him a dedicated trainer from day 1?
Yes Tyrus is a special player and requires a special type of i don't know how to put it
The Coaches have to be tough on him because he needs to be pushed and they should motivate him . Tyrus can play great when he puts his mind to it. If the coaches can motivate him they can play well. Instead of just labeling him as a problem and a whiner, and giving up on him they have to be tough and push him and not give up on him. Keep him happy, make him want to do well for the team. But management has handled him wrong. Also I think the reason Taj is getting so much minutes is because they want to give him experience because he will play a big role next year. They also aren’t going to resign Tyrus , Taj will be there. They want to give him as much time as possible so he can improve.
That's the part that scares me.
So they are developing a worse player, a number 26 pick, because they plan for him to be an important part of the team next year?
That’s the trouble. What makes Taj a decent backup PF in his rookie year is that he hustles and plays within his abilities. He’s not going to put up 20, nor is he going to shut anybody down (even Haslem or Varajao type PFs). He looks like a back of the rotation player right now, with the ability to become a decent 6-7th hustle guy in the next few years, and perhaps an average to slightly above average starter/role player as his peak.
I mean, we clearly need a PF. Even if Taj continues to improve, he’s probably is not going to be much better than Tyrus was last year for the near future. We need a new PF and if we sign a starting PF, Taj will only be getting 15 minutes or so a game. You can’t tell me we’re playing Taj over Tyrus solely so that he plays slightly better in his 15 minutes a game next year, right?
I think its more
a matter of it being less of a headache to play Taj and in reality we arent doing much this year anyway.
by Teh Immortal Batman on Feb 7, 2010 10:18 PM CST up reply actions
Taj will be there.
in the lane, picking up his (estimated) 0.7 offensive three second violations and 1.3 defensive three seconds per game?
(i think these are turnovers credited to “team”, not the individual player?)
"Let's do some living... after we die"
offensive 3 seconds is a turnover credited to the player. A defensive 3 second is recorded as a team tech, but the player is still noted in the boxscore.
I do find it interesting that Taj never gets his intelligence insulted
when he gets called for one of those a game.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 9, 2010 5:09 PM CST up reply actions
Maybe because he's so visibly upset
Vinny can see his passion for the game (kidding of course). I really do hate the faces Taj makes though when a call goes against him.
Joakim on whether he ever tried tennis: "I played a little bit. If anybody on the Bulls wanted to play me, I would kick their ass."
by bigballa10 on Feb 9, 2010 8:50 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm surprised he doesn't get T'd up more
though he never really does it AT the officials.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 10, 2010 11:18 AM CST up reply actions
Miller gives the best faces.
It’s like somebody just forced him to eat a piece of shit or something.
Miller, Perkins, Rasheed, Kobe… the all face team.
You forgot about lebron.
Early in the season after we beaten them when he thought he was fouled. That was funny.
Why didn't we just sign Warrick for 3m this year then?
By all accounts we could’ve just traded TT for expirings at the start of the year. He was rumored to be involved for that Boozer deal, as well as a few others. I’m sure we could’ve gotten scraps for him then.
Which makes me think that this wasn’t totally pre-meditated. That this was just the result of a lack of planning, rather than a malicious plan. That it was a result of management failing to care and letting a bad coach do… bad coaching.
Like I mentioned in the original post, VDN was taking away end game minutes from Rose last year. Management had to step in to prevent this atrocious coaching decision. It’s a shame they didn’t step up here either. Maybe they were going to fire Vinny? Maybe they don’t value Tyrus enough, since he’s been a disappointment relative to his draft slot, unlike Rose. Maybe the fans don’t care enough to pressure them to play the best players, to make accurate decisions?
In the end the owner has to want his franchise to be run well though. Incompetent people don’t just become competent overnight, and VDN proved his incompetence on multiple occasions last year. An end of the year hot run seemed to save his job last year. A bunch of confusion, possibly a coaching search on the fly, then a recent hot run seemed to save his job this year. Would a first round upset in the playoffs before being torched in round 2 save VDN’s job this year? God, I hope not.
Great Post!
This is exactly what I’ve been trying to say in my comments. I’m not trying to absolve TT of his actions on or off the court. He needs to mature and play better. But to see the wave of criticism brought his way by Management and fanned by the media, really gets under my skin. Why? Because it’s too cute for the half and it’s insulting to me as a fan.
I’m not an expert on basketball but I’m not some naive fan amazed by a great dunk. I know what I’m seeing. I don’t need Boers and Bernstein to tell me that Tyrus putting up 12 and 6 in 12 minutes against the 76ers doesn’t mean anything because he’s not where he needs to be on the court. But it’s Ok for Miller to score 8 pts and grab 1 board in over 30 mins of action in the same game that the Bulls lost because they got killed on the boards. This is common sense here. The Bulls have already sent the message about what they think of Tyrus and the media perpetuates it.
The issues with this team has to start with an owner who quite honestly could care less about the project. Be honest, would the White Sox be ran this way? Ozzie Guillen has to answer year by year if he’s going to stay as manager of the SOX but Vinnie can literally lose ball games by burning timeouts? Something’s wrong with this picture. All I want is for fans to quit falling for the quick answer which is to label a guy a malcontent and call him a “spoiled athlete” and want him gone. It’s Management that is responsible for putting a structure in place for talents like Tyrus to succeed. If they can’t do that then they are the true issue.
by Dils on Feb 7, 2010 11:28 PM CST reply actions 4 recs
From a big Tyrus fan . . .
1) Despite all the good he brings to the court, if you don’t look like you’re trying hard, VDN yanks you and lets face it . . . as good as Tyrus is, he looks high out there most of the time. But I don’t think it should even matter as long as you bring more positives than negatives.
2) We don’t see Tyrus in practice and apparently, every coach Tyrus has had on the Bulls hated him so it’s not just a personal vendetta against him. I’m guessing that he just doesn’t put in as much work, or at least doesn’t look like it. And I’m sure he sometimes does act bigger than the team but hey, he’s still young. I always say, let him play through it all . . . in his case, they won’t and I’m guessing that it just has to do with his character
I don't think
the coaching staff tells him what his role is, what he should work on, and how he should use his gifts
by QUINTEN DALEY on Feb 8, 2010 10:31 AM CST up reply actions
I think
it’s impossible that they didn’t. While they certainly bear some blame for it not working out better than this, to say they never told him basic information is too simplistic. All the times that coaches yanked him out of games, you think he was never told what he did wrong? I specifically remember Skiles saying Tyrus needs to run, and Tyrus continuing to jog down the court in the following games.
I am not absolving the org in any way, but thinking that the coaches never said what they wanted is as ridiculous as thinking that Tyrus is completely to blame here.
Vinny: "[Thrust] means pace, it means getting the ball out, it means getting your back to the sidelines, it means extending your outlets, it means getting the ball up the court into our early offense with plenty of time."
What I was referring to
“I’m always in a difficult spot with a player like that,” Skiles said before the 112-91 setback dropped the Bulls to 2-8. "I understand the fans see one side of it. We see the other. We know what’s supposed to be done out there. We ask him to sprint the floor. To my knowledge in his career he hasn’t done it one time. Not one time.
“Watch when he gets in there. Is he jogging or is he sprinting the floor? So I have to look out not only for … ‘Can somebody help me win a game tonight?’ but balance that against trying to get him to be a high-level player.
“He’s not going to be if he doesn’t do that one thing. That’s about all he has to do, change ends like a train. We have not been able to get him to do that.”
Vinny: "[Thrust] means pace, it means getting the ball out, it means getting your back to the sidelines, it means extending your outlets, it means getting the ball up the court into our early offense with plenty of time."
by runningman on Feb 8, 2010 3:34 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
If anyone else wants to be sad about tyrus...
Look up his pre draft measurements and athletic stats. The guy is the athletic equivalent of Josh Smith. If he was actually properly developed, Tyrus could have been that player. I’d say if Tyrus became a player that was averaging 15ppg, 8rpg and 3apg, most would be pretty happy! However, it took him a couple seasons. The problem is that the Bulls did not develop him as a player. Tyrus (and most fans as well I’d bet) still seems unsure of his role on the team! After 4 years, shouldn’t you know what your role is? Apparently not on this team
Just as an FYI...
As bad as he’s been this year, if Thomas were playing 36 minutes, he’d be averaging:
13.6 pts / 10.0 rebs / 1.7 ast / 2.7 blks / 2.0 stls
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
In other words, he'd look like a solid to above average starter.
It’s candy. I don’t eat poop-flavored candy. I’m not going to watch poop-level basketball.
--tyger1147
by fundamentallysound on Feb 8, 2010 12:42 PM CST up reply actions
yer its a matter of what bulls need right now
They need Tyrus to start right now cause of there injuries,…not playing brad 40 mins a game
nice post
I think I get caught up myself in the ‘Bulls can’t develop players’ idea. Some of their guys have made strides, notably the only two on the roster who matter.
But they can’t develop projects. This is why it’s no great feat to note the relative success of Hinrich, Deng, Gordon, etc. of the early Paxson years: he picked them because they were self-motivated and mature from winning programs. He sacrificed potential upside for those traits.
Luckily Rose seemingly has all those things AND talent. But it’s not a good sign that the Bulls can’t develop when there are rough patches. The reason they haven’t quit on this bozo coach is because they’re all good guys. But it’d be nice if they could take risks in the draft too, and apparently that isn’t the case. Though they won’t be drafting too high for a while going forward anyway.
James Johnson is screwed, but Taj Gibson isn’t. That’s how the Bulls development works.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 8, 2010 9:34 AM CST reply actions
I can't wait till James Johnson is traded.
Taj Gibson is the face of Bulls basketball!
by Trey23 on Jan 5, 2010 6:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Feb 8, 2010 10:51 AM CST up reply actions
After they can't get anything for him?
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
You'll feel pretty stupid when we get a sandwich and a bag of Doritos.
Taj Gibson is the face of Bulls basketball!
by Trey23 on Jan 5, 2010 6:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Feb 8, 2010 11:03 AM CST up reply actions
I could go for some Doritos right now ...
Anyone want Devin Brown? … Man, I dunno about those Doritos for him.
Go Rockets/Nets[CDR]/Bucks[Jennings]!
When it looked like Thabo wasn't as polished as they thought he was, he got put on the back-burner, too.
Except for a strange 5-game stretch.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
What higher upside players did the bulls pass on?
When they picked hinrich, Gordon and deng.
Hinrich was taken bc he was the best available pg. I suppose Shaun Livingston and Devin Harris had higher upside than Gordon but deng was a so-called upside pick. At 19 years old he was far from a sure thing, and he worked out.
Don't forget about getting
Duhon in the 2nd round, I thought he was going to be a bench ridding scrub who would only be a 12th man, be he has turned into a steady PG
by QUINTEN DALEY on Feb 8, 2010 11:24 AM CST up reply actions
too late
I did already forget about Duhon, and am better off for it.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 8, 2010 11:31 AM CST up reply actions
by 'steady' you mean 'crappy', right
He’s a decent backup PG, that’s for sure.
Go Rockets/Nets[CDR]/Bucks[Jennings]!
I dunno who they passed on
but they took (and bragged about) taking the ‘winning’ types.
We all know Hinrich was taken because it was an undying love that was destined to be.
in ‘04, you suppose that Livingston and Harris had higher upsides than Gordon? Not only unconcerned with upside, they drafted Gordon and immediately fixated on his limitations. Deng was 19 but more of the ’polished winner’ label than Iguodala.
You’re correct that looking at those two drafts in particular, their strategy likely turned out to be the best one given the circumstances. I don’t want them to make bad picks just to prove a point about taking risks on projects. I was just saying they seem to have this drafting strategy and it fits what they do (bone you once you put on the uniform to depress contract aspirations)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 8, 2010 11:31 AM CST up reply actions
I dono. I rag on the Org. as much as anyone, but we're dealing here in extremely small sample sizes and their could
be selection bias. Tyrus was always pretty clearly a raw player and raw players,I would imagine almost by definition, have a greater bust rate than more polished types. Couple that with his aloofness and proclivity for shooting more jumpers than he probably should and not running the floor like he could, and it’s easy to see how the situation could have been doomed to fail from the beginning. Now, maybe that means the Bulls would have been better off drafting LMA (I don’t really think so, LMA is wildly overrated), but they took a calculated risk and failed.
The draft is an inherently difficult thing to peg (if it was easy, we would have drafted Brandon Roy). I think the Bulls could have handled Tyrus a lot better, but I also think that Tyrus has always done a very poor job of recognizing where he brings value and trying to really focus on those things on the court. Contrast that to Noah, who’s a much, much smarter player than Tyrus, and you can really see what I’m talking about. Tyrus wants to shoot jumpshots and handle the ball, despite the fact that he helps the Bulls most when he runs pick and rolls and actually rolls to the rim and either gets a dunk or gets fouled or when he crashes the glass and focuses on defense. Noah, on the other hand, has always known what he is. He’s a garbage man. He hits the glass and gets putbacks. He does whatever you need on defense. He’s developed his skills, but by and large, he’s still focused his game on getting looks close to the bucket because his jump shot is horrendous (though he’s been improving that shot’s accuracy slightly, despite not really fixing the gyro-ball spin he puts on it).
What I’m basically saying is that I think that the Bulls could have handled Tyrus better, but it’s also possible that Tyrus would always have ended up this way. This is the second coach (B&*^$lan doesn’t count) that has treated him this way. It might just be that Tyrus is kind of an asshole to his bosses, despite being a humanitarian and community good guy.
It’s candy. I don’t eat poop-flavored candy. I’m not going to watch poop-level basketball.
--tyger1147
by fundamentallysound on Feb 8, 2010 12:57 PM CST up reply actions
You know, one thing even my Thomas-apologetic self hadn't thought of....
Who have been the veteran PF’s that Thomas has had around him in his first two years?
P.J. Brown
Malik Allen
Joe Smith
Drew Gooden
What are they all known for, generally, on offense?
What are other PF’s and C’s known for?
Miller
Nocioni
Gibson
What about the player that everyone seems to pine for?
LaMarcus Aldridge
What about the golden boys of the franchise?
Luol Deng
Hinrich
What about the coach?
Del Negro
And Del Negro has said multiple times he wants his PF to shoot jumpers or get out of the way.
Combined with his pre-draft comments about wanting to be a SF, is it really any wonder why he shoots so much?
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
The thing is... Tyrus doesn't make his jumpers. He really worked on getting better, but he just stinks as a jump shooter.
Taj isn’t really much better (Taj: 39.9% vs. 37.5% for Tyrus), but I would so much rather see Tyrus use his athleticism to get to the rim or the line than waste it by firing up a jumper that any unathletic, average big man could have put up. He willfully takes away his biggest advantage when he relies so heavily on the jumper. 37.5% eFG on jumpers when you’re shooting 54% of your shots as jumpers, just doesn’t get it done. The guys you listed off… none of them had Tyrus’s physical gifts. They relied on the jumper out of necessity, because they weren’t guys that really had above the rim games. Tyrus doesn’t need to be that guy, but he chooses to be, which is the problem. Especially because he’s a bad shooter.
It’s candy. I don’t eat poop-flavored candy. I’m not going to watch poop-level basketball.
--tyger1147
by fundamentallysound on Feb 9, 2010 4:34 AM CST up reply actions
I still think it's as much to do with the "system" as Thomas.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
so do I
as I’m noticing Rose has been shooting a lot of jumpers as well. It has to be by design.
Joakim on whether he ever tried tennis: "I played a little bit. If anybody on the Bulls wanted to play me, I would kick their ass."
his entire offensive game has been disappointing
he still can’t finish after contact, and does he ever use pump fakes when down there?
A couple years ago he had one semi-regular back-to-the-basket move where he’d do a quick spin and practically lay the ball in (due to his length+leaping), but now he exclusively faces up.
Right now his moves are the jumper, and driving by a guy to get fouled (and never getting ‘and-one’). Then of course the rest of the points through ‘garbage’ opportunities. The Buls aren’t exactly running back-door lobs for the guy.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 9, 2010 11:26 AM CST up reply actions
My plea
to Bulls fan, don’t be fooled by Hinrich
by QUINTEN DALEY on Feb 8, 2010 10:33 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
why are we tearing each other up over tyrus thomas......
because we traded away lamarcus aldridge for this clown, that’s why ! and just compare the two now……. aldridge is way better than thomas. so yes management is to blame for this situation, it started with a bad draft trade that turned worse with the hiring of VDN. and since bulls management is not available for us to vent our frustrations…..we take it out on one another !
Not to bash on TT
But people say that LMA can’t rebound TT is the better rebounder, but 8.3pg rebounds from LMA is not bad.
why is TT such a sympathetic figure on this board?
I don’t feel “sorry” for Thomas that he came into a disorganized franchise. that’s the nature of being a high lottery pick.
This guy is a great athlete that doesn’t have the faintest notion of how to play basketball, except for help side defense, he’s like a blocking savant and basketball idiot.
That said, he is still one of the better option on this pathetic front line, but I’m not going to sit and make excuses for a the guy. From all indications rather than realize he could be playing for his future he’s gone into a shell on and off the court.
whatevs, the boat on Thomas has sailed, it’s a dead horse at this point, like BG.
true, and we never complain about BG anymore.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 8, 2010 4:56 PM CST up reply actions
I sympathize with myself, wondering why I care so much about a weird team.
Taj Gibson is the face of Bulls basketball!
by Trey23 on Jan 5, 2010 6:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Feb 8, 2010 8:58 PM CST up reply actions
I don't sympathize with TT one bit.
I sympathize for us, the fans. The coach, the owner, the players, they all get paid to fail. They’ve been paid to fail the last ten years, more or less. We’re the ones stuck with an inferior product and what is bordering on a laughingstock of a franchise (we were 98% there or whatever before that lottery ball fell for us).
Tyrus is likely a dick. I’m sure at least a few other guys on the team and a ton of them in the NBA are conceded jerks. The game isn’t about nice people, it’s about molding talents into execution on the floor. And from that standpoint, there’s a problem.
The BG situation at least makes sense financially. They let him walk because they felt his price was too high, they didn’t make a trade last year to get something for BG because 1) they didn’t want to take back salary into this year and 2) they didn’t want to downgrade talent wise during the year.
The reason for 2 is because most fans tend to be happy if we’re winning and angry if we’re losing, regardless of any strategic underlying factors. If you trade BG last year for an expiring and a 1st rounder, most casual fans are going to think you’re crazy. We know the truth, but we’re not the only fans out there guys.
So, while I would’ve rather seen them turn BG into at least a solid draft pick, at least we can understand why they did what they did (cheap skates).
But with Tyrus, it’s not them being cheap. But it also makes no basketball sense. I don’t think it was a personal vendetta, I truly do not. I think it was just a result of the failures myself and others have been outlining recently. A coach without a clue, a GM that doesn’t have the brass to step up when he should (except when Rose was being benched, but not even when VDN was supposedly being replaced) and an owner that is just counting dollars. It’s a recipe for disaster, like I said, we’re one 2% lottery score away from being a complete joke.
by RyPac13 on Feb 8, 2010 5:52 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
He should've had more minutes at PF from the start.
I believe his skill relative to the other people at his position warrants at least 25 minutes a night.
And playing a #26 pick for 20-23 minutes a night is pretty loose anyways. It’s not like Taj won’t develop well if we put him out there for 20 minutes. It’s just a face palming situation of incompetence and a broken chain of command.
The result (which I’m hoping to change) has been people arguing either for Taj or for Tyrus. Guys, Tyrus is better than Taj. Not by a ton, but he’s better. Taj has more of a future here apparently, so it only makes sense that Tyrus gets 25-30 minutes and Taj 20-25 minutes. If you went by pure skill it would probably be more like 32/16.
Instead, you have a gopher of a coach putting Taj out there like he’s better than any other starting PF in the league (can we name one or two Taj is clearly superior to?). Again, that’s no fault on Taj, he’s the 26 pick of the draft. He’s outperforming expectations, but that doesn’t mean we give him a full starter role. His value does not warrant that and I can’t imagine there’s any clear upside that justifies playing the worse player here. In fact, you could easily argue that Tyrus has developed more in the last two years and would continue to develop at a faster pace than Taj this year if he were played more. I’m not saying that is true, I am just saying you can equally make that argument. It’s moot to me, when you start playing people purely based on long term potential, you start to lose sight of a lot of more important things. You can’t put stock into pipe dreams in this league, you’re always an injury away from needing a replacement. Just ask Boston. Or Portland. Or the Warriors. Or the Clippers.
by RyPac13 on Feb 8, 2010 6:13 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
You could also say
that the only development playing Taj more has created is Taj “developing” plantar fascilis, which is obviously a great thing to have.
Go Rockets/Nets[CDR]/Bucks[Jennings]!
So I was watching the Lakers last night, particularly Lamar Odom
Now, Odom was probably labeled a bust as recently as 3 years ago. He has crazy athleticism, good body control and can give people fits on defense.
However, Odom seems to play up to his potential maybe once every 8 quarters in the regular season, and perhaps 1-2 quarters a game as recently as last year’s playoffs. But this is ok for the Lakers. They turned a bust into a player that can “bring it” like an all star starter about half the time in the playoffs.
You ever watch Odom play? He basically has two modes. Most of the time in the regular season, he looks detached and uninterested and is not very aggressive. But like a flip of a switch, he’ll demand the ball, or dribble it up the court, pass it to the PG then just start muscling around his defender. He’ll grab the ball and just will his way into a layup. It’s astounding. Why can’t he do this more often? Why doesn’t he play so aggressively all the time? Probably for the same types of reasons you see inconsistency from players like Baron Davis and Jermaine O’Neal. There’s other players that certainly fit the mold too.
I believe Tyrus is one of those players. So perhaps the goal should be to get as much as we can out of Tyrus. I’m not saying VDN should let Tyrus dribble the ball up the court before passing it to a real guard, as Jackson did last year which made Odom feel like a real point guard (lol). It’s amazing how simple the “trick” has to be in order to get the player’s head in the game though. Maybe play Tyrus more often, but for lesser spurts. Maybe switch up who he is guarding a few times, to keep him on his toes and interested. Maybe run a set play where he goes in for an alley oop? Instead of encouraging him to take mid range jumpers in practice and in the game, how about encouraging him to develop a small jump hook? Then run an isolation play when he has weak PFs or SFs guarding him.
All this stuff would utilize Tyrus better for the team and give us a better chance of keeping his head in the game. He won’t be as good as Odom, but Odom at his best is a top 10 player. The problem is that Odom used to show up a few times a season, now they can get him to play the way he should almost half the time in the playoffs. If we got Tyrus going half the time, he would be even better than he is now. With the playoffs coming, he might be even more focused (these bums often get up for the playoffs) and we could actually turn this rubbish into a quality playoff contributor. Then a sign and trade in the offseason if you hate him so much Vinny (or if he takes the qualifying offer he’s only at around 5.5 mil and you can trade him as an expiring).
Instead we encourage him to take the worst shot in the game, which he is not good at. Then when he gets frustrated we just suspend him and bury him in the bench, despite him still being a decent contributor.
Some people have athletic issues, some people have practice issues, some people have shot issues and some people have mental issues. Players such as Lamar Odom and Tyrus Thomas seem to fall into the “mental issue” category. Whether we hate them or sympathize with them, we can either choose to get the most out of them or not. I think the decision is clear, too bad the important people seem to feel otherwise.
I don't think you're comparison is a good one
Odom averaged 16-8-4 as a 20-year-old rookie for a dysfunctional Clippers team. Tyrus… well you know.
And the major point isn't that Tyrus can be as good as Odom.
The point is that Odom was given a similar label by teams previously, and Phil Jackson seems to have found the “answer” to getting Odom up for games when he is needed.
That’s all I was saying.
Tyrus is not good at basketball
I had a previous post about this so I’ll try and keep it as short (as possible). You can’t think about tyrus in terms of his stats, his per 40 minute numbers, or his occasional highlight reel dunk. You have to watch him play. He doesn’t know what the hell he is doing and it shows to me as a fan and is amazingly clear to the opposing defender who is free to lay off him and play help D on any other drive (occasional tyrus flailing garbage score or foul). NBA coaches aren’t going to let a trainwreck play heavy minutes on their squad and he obviously wasn’t showing progress in practice, devoting himself to becoming a better fundamental player (worse fundamentals in the league? see all open court passes he makes / no i’m not talking about the decision making, i’m referring to the one handed side push), or helping his team win. This is his fault (75%) and don’t expect him to “turn it around” under a notorious meanie like Larry Brown. Can you imagine having to coach this prick????
by Jud Buechler on Feb 11, 2010 6:39 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
It looks like Tyrus has a 1.8 TO %, which doesn’t appear to be very good. Only the guards have worse. And then there’s Noah, who has a 2.1 TO %.
I don’t know, to be honest. Miller looks like he’s in a coma sometimes, Derek fades in and out (though is still obviously awesome) and Noah can make even the worst possession look like he was trying his hardest.
Stats tell the black and white of it, watching we know that Tyrus often is lost or lacks hustle. We see Taj get frustrated and become out of place quite often.
All in all, you can’t be too hard on Tyrus without being critical of others though. There are just too many flaws in the other players. The thing about Tyrus is that he bugs a lot of us with his poor attitude and lack of hustle. Others have it to, but it’s most noticeably in Tyrus, and perhaps most extreme. That’s not enough to justify what they’ve done to him this season though. By your theory we should’ve just traded him already. It’s obvious they didn’t want to give him any real chances this season.
The thing about Tyrus is that he's simply not a very good basketball player
And the frustrating thing is that he should be. Nobody should even be able to make an argument that a guy like Taj Gibson is a more effective basketball player than TT, but TT is so far from realizing his full potential, it’s maddening. And the guy’s not improving. One could make a convincing argument that TT was a better player 2 years ago. Maybe he turns into an all-star, but there’s an equal chance he’s not on an NBA roster in a few years. Whatever the case, his days with the Bulls are numbered.
Taj Gibson isn't more effective.
Thomas is a more efficient scorer. Gets to the line more. Gets more rebounds. Alters more shots. The team scores less with him on the court but gives up even fewer points on the defensive end.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
I personally believe that Tyrus>>>Gibson
But there are people who don’t, and they have the capability to make a rational argument in favor of that. The fact that it’s even a discussion is a sad indictment of TT’s failure to realize his potential.
You are right. That is sad
But there are people who don’t, and they have the capability to make a rational argument in favor of that. The fact that it’s even a discussion is a sad indictment of TT’s failure to realize his potential.
That is so true
Ty>>>Taj
But Ty is a damn tease (like some women) nobody likes a tease. As for Taj he gets a big “meh”.
Taj is nothin compared to TT
Taj is clearly the weaker player of the two. a comparison is just a joke. TT is a freak, i hate people that bash this guy, just wait till he goes to a new team and just tears shit up
Until TT uses his head (like he has been doing the past few games now) consistently.
It remains to be seen. It depends on what team he is on.
For what
Blame TT for what? VDN not giving him minutes
It helps with
the flow of the conversation if you click on the “reply” feature by the persons name you want to reply to.
OK I don't know shit about basketball.
by SoulEater7 on Nov. 5, 2009 9:51 PM CST
by sue369 on Feb 12, 2010 12:40 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I thought everybody was clear that TT has improved.
The problem I always had, and I thought many of you did, is that TT hasn’t improved enough.
A few years ago you couldn’t justify starting him at all in my mind. These days, on a roster with a pick and choose between him and Taj, it’s clear to me he should start.
TT’s skills seem to correlate as a below average PF in this league. But not by much. He can play 20 minutes on a team with a decent PF, and up to 30 on a team without one (like Taj).
It’s a far cry from what you expect from a top 5 pick, but that’s where my disappointment ends. Top picks become marginal or even role players plenty of times. You make the best of it and kick yourself for picking nothing but a young kid that jumped high in college. It’s not like TT made any real shots on that LSU team. He just swatted away people’s shots and stayed around the rim. The Bulls never really seemed to talk about putting him down low though. They encouraged him to take those jumpers we hate to see him take.
And they run the pick and roll with Noah, one of the only more shooting challenged players on this roster. I’d prefer to see how Deng and Rose run that play, but why not TT if Noah is running it? He’s quicker, more explosive and shoots better than Noah.
Agreed
Ty was a project from day one. We picked him because he totally shut down Aldridge in the tournament(he shot like 2-14), made LMA look like a straight up bitch at times. Ty should be further along now but I think his main impediment was lack of a true role by coaching and his attitude. It’s 50/50. His college coaches knew his strengths would to keep him around the basket to get easy baskets. The Bulls constantly had him floating on the outside. I’ve never seen a play drawn up for him to do a backdoor cut for an alley oop or a pick n roll with Derrick.
Tyrus works hard on his game, it has been noted by many that he practices a lot and isn’t a guy who cuts out early. He puts in work, but in his 4th year, he is still doing too much. It was up to Ty to realize his strenghts(getting blocks and steals, getting into transitions and driving to the hoop under control to get to the line). He still tries to make the spectacular play instead of the safe one. That kinda stuff is on him.
I still think he will be an effective player…maybe not a 35+ player but more like a 25-33 minute guy who can change the game. He obviously can be because all the teams that want him are actual contenders.
The two things that bug me the most about Tyrus are:
1) His tendency to seem out of it at times, to not hustle all the time
and
2) His slowness to improve his dribble. Every fast break or fast cut to the basket is an adventure for Tyrus.
If he improved those two things, there is no doubt in my mind he would force management to make Vinny give him some time, personal hatred or not. That part is on Tyrus.
The other part is on the management, and that’s been well covered here.
A player can always overcome bad management, but as a fan I don’t want the player to have to be that good, because most players (such as Tyrus) are not, and do not improve in all the right ways and basically force management to play you and not let that get to you.
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