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Around SBN: How The Kings Beat The Coyotes: Lather, Rinse, Repeat

These Bulls trades are like Siskel & Ebert's review of "Armageddon"

A thumbs up, and a thumbs down. Way down.*

* You would not believe how much time I just wasted trying to find a movie they had that exact opinion of. Let me put it this way: This post is now up to three sentences; I'd have finished it in 2007 if I'd spent my time writing it instead of poring over clips of two of the most unattractive men I've ever had the displeasure of seeing. I'm sorry, but I prefer my movie critics be classically handsome, in a 1940s leading-man sort of way. Like a Gene Shalit. Or Leonard Maltin.

                                                                 Clark Gable, circa 1943

Let's start with the good, because I hate being positive and I want to get it out of the way.

THUMBS UP: Bulls trade John Salmons to Bucks for Joe Alexander and Hakim Warrick
While I had high hopes for it coming into the year, the Salmons-as-starting-shooting-guard venture was an abject failure. Before he mercifully lost his job, Salmons shot 38.9% from the field; last year he shot 41.7% ... from 3-point range. And 47.2% overall. Despite this season's shooting woes, as a starter Salmons was still jackin' em up at about the same clip, averaging 12.7 shots per game versus last season's 13.4. His free throw rate (and percentage) also went down, and in all his points per game dropped from 18.3 to 13.8.

The upshot is, Salmons became increasingly likely to exercise his player option for $5.8 million next season, something that seemed unthinkable before the year began. But with NBA economy declining as badly as his play, he surely realizes that he wouldn't get anywhere near $5.8 million for 2010-11 on the open market. Exercising his option would have seriously eaten into the Bulls' salary cap, preventing them from offering the max to one of the marquee free agents that's sure to spurn them in favor of the more money (and years) he can get from his current team. But really, that's irrelevant; with so many superstars available this offseason, the Bulls had to at least put themselves in the position to get one.

Short of finding someone dumb enough to take Kirk Hinrich's contract off their hands -- a scenario that became an impossibility with Isiah Thomas out of the league -- shedding Salmons was the only way for the Bulls to ensure the requisite cap space.

When the initial rumors of Salmons' trade broke, the Bulls were supposedly getting back Kurt Thomas and Francisco Elson, and as much as it pains me to say so given Elson's alma mater, that return would've been significantly worse than the package of Warrick and Alexander. Still, that proposed deal immediately raised some red flags for me because -- like the one they ultimately consummated -- it was two frontcourt guys for one-third of their viable guard rotation, and it seemed like it had to be a prelude to another trade.

Regardless, I've always liked Warrick, and the Bulls have now cornered the market on guys with -kim in their name. In many ways, Warrick duplicates Tyrus Thomas. He's long and wiry, and a great leaper too. Their career numbers are also pretty similar:


Thomas Warrick
Min./G 20.3 21.6
Points 7.8 10.2
FG% 45.2 49.7
FGA/G 6.3 7.5
FT% 71.5 72.5
FTA/G 2.9 3.7
Rebounds 5.1 4.3
Assists 0.9 0.7
Steals 0.9 0.4
Blocks 1.4 0.4
TO 1.4 1.3
Fouls 2.4 2.1

 

The biggest difference -- aside from Tyrus being four years younger -- is defensively, where Warrick is a non-factor and Thomas is a game-changer. But they are somewhat comparable players, and I think Warrick's even been accused on a couple of occasions of not putting forth maximum effort, so that'll at least be familiar to the United Center faithful.

As for Alexander, I liked him coming into last season's draft -- C'mon, who doesn't like an American-born white guy? Aside from fans of quality basketball, that is -- but upon further review he is neither white (in the traditional sense) nor American born. He was born in Taiwan, is half Chinese, and his game is a completely antithetical to that of the stereotypical white guy: His fundamentals are terrible, and he can jump out of the gym. (And Warrick's the guy I compared to Tyrus?) From everything I've read today, it's doubtful he ever gets a chance to play here.

The deal does have some significant downside though. For starters, given Milwaukee's gaping whole at 2-guard with Michael Redd done for the year, this trade provides a substantial upgrade to the Bucks, and they're the team that poses the biggest threat to the Bulls' postseason aspirations. If the Bulls miss out on the playoffs, it would not only be terrible for the young core's development, but also might affect a potential free-agent signee's perception of the organization, because those guys aren't going to settle for less money than they can get from their own teams because they're clamoring to spend winters in Chicago; rather, they're going to want to play for a winner. And don't forget the millions in revenue missing the postseason would cost the Bulls, which might make them even less willing to go into luxury-tax territory (or even beyond the cap) in the future. Not that anyone would ever say Jerry Reinsdorf is cheap.

Another negative is that the Bulls gave up their second-round picks in 2011 and 2012. Now while there have been a handful of second-round success stories in recent years, very few guys not picked in the first round ever become significant contributors. Still, teams are sometimes stupid enough to pass over sure-fire studs (twice), and the picks have value as sweeteners in deals (like this one) so to give up two years' worth stings just a little bit.

Additionally, the Bulls gave Milwaukee the option of switching first-round picks this year, and although it's top-10 protected, if the Bucks knock them out of the playoffs, it could cost them five or six spots.

And finally, this deal unbalanced the roster, which led to:

THUMBS DOWN, WAY DOWN: Bulls trade Tyrus Thomas to Charlotte for Flip Murray, Acie Law, and a future first-round pick
I'm not going to rehash my extensive pro-Tyrus arguments, but I hope that he gets the chance he never got here and realizes his immense potential, just to put a microscope on the organization's incompetent boobery. While this trade was wholly unnecessary from a financial perspective -- Thomas' contract was expiring, and they only had to make him a qualifying offer to maintain his 'restricted' free agent status; no qualifier (and the attached cap hold the Bulls wanted to avoid) would've just made him an unrestricted free agent, in which case they could still re-sign him -- because of the Salmons deal, the Bulls were in desperate need of another guard. I mean, did you see Wednesday's Knicks game? Hinrich had to play 87 minutes because he's Jerry West compared to collection of Jerry Sichtings they had on the bench.

                                                      Bulls guard Kirk Hinrich, aka The Logo

And yet while balancing the roster, this trade also makes the Bulls appreciably worse talent-wise; ESPN.com's Trade Machine has it reducing the Bulls' wins by 5 and increasing Charlotte's by 4.** Murray is a decent enough third guard, but there's a reason he's now on his eighth team in eight years. He's 30, has horrible shot selection, is a bit selfish, and is shooting 38.9% from the field; basically, he's a shorter, frightening-goateeless John Salmons.

** Just like with the Milwaukee trade, the Bulls made a team they are fighting with for a playoff spot markedly better. It's almost like The Fish (as my friend Adam calls Gar Forman) doesn't want to have to work through the postseason.

Law is a little more interesting, as he gives the Bulls a young, semi-capable point guard off the bench. He's been a major disappointment thus far in his two-plus years, but a lot of people -- okay, me -- were very high on him coming out of Texas A&M. Point guards can take longer to develop, and maybe he'll end up being a late bloomer.

                                                 GM Gar Forman's destination, April 15, 2010

As for the first-round pick, I'm going to let ESPN.com's John Hollinger explain:

The pick the Bulls get from the Bobcats might not arrive for a long time. The earliest they can get it is 2012, because the Bobcats already owe a 2010 pick to Minnesota. But that pick is top-12 protected, and if the Bobcats crash and burn to land in the top of the lottery, it means they will owe Minnesota a pick in 2011 ... and thus can't give Chicago a pick in 2013. (The so-called Ted Stepien rule prevents teams from trading first-rounders in successive years.) That pick in 2011 is top-10 protected, so if the Bobcats can't get out of the lottery, it could drag on another year and not land Chicago a pick until 2014.


I understand that the Bulls probably didn't want another first-rounder in this year's draft, as that pick's salary slot would've counted against the cap, and possibly limited their offseason maneuverings. But to not get it until 2012 at the earliest? An asset that far in the future is essentially worthless today. Although I admittedly might like having this pick a whole hell of a lot come 2014. Provided the Bobcats haven't been contracted by then.

Compared to these two guys, Tyrus would have had significantly more value in a sign-and-trade, which is the only way to get one of these max free agents the actual maximum amount of cash allowed by the collective bargaining agreement. Not to mention that I would've liked them to keep him after their inevitable failure to sign a bigger name. And while Tyrus did have the occasional run-in with the coaching staff, it was always over his dissatisfaction with his playing time. And looking at his stats on a per-minute basis*** -- as well as his plus-minus (+5.3, 2nd best on the team) and Player Efficiency Rating (16.8, 4th) -- his complaints were totally justified. Not that his methods always were.

*** Since this is my first post on this site, I'll elaborate here with some things I wrote about earlier this week. Among players with at least 500 minutes played, Tyrus entered the All-Star break 7th in the NBA in blocks per minute and 5th in steals/minute. He was the lone player in the league in the top-20 in the two categories and only Josh Smith (20th in blocks, 26th in steals) and Marcus Camby (19th and 35th, respectively) were even in the top-40 in both.

And yes, every now and then, he'd take a shot so over-the-top wacky that you'd have to hit the INFO button to confirm that you were, in fact, watching an NBA game. But for all of the criticism he'd get, you'd think it happened 10 times a night. The reality is, he was shooting .489 for the season, the second-highest mark on the team.

Unfortunately for Tyrus, the Bobcats' Larry Brown is the one of the few coaches in the league who will be even less tolerant of his occasionally out-of-control play than Vinny Del Negro was. So we might have to wait until next year to see him get legitimate playing time.

As crappy organizations often do, the Bulls never gave their young player enough of an opportunity to determine whether or not he could end up being a stud. Because of his sometimes indifferent demeanor on the court, I'm not certain that Tyrus will become a star. But he's already a hell of a lot better and more productive than the staffs of the Bulls and the local newspapers would lead you to believe.

Given the circumstances of Thomas' departure, I can't help but think about the last time the organization chose a head coach over a talented-but-somewhat-erratic big man, and hope that history repeats itself, only doing so a little faster this time around. Because just 17 months after the Bulls completely gave away Tyson Chandler -- who, coincidentally, will now be Tyrus' teammate in Charlotte -- they fired their head coach.

And I just can't wait to see Vinny Del Negro's Bulls career reach its Armageddon.

FanPosts are user-created posts from the BlogABull community, and are to be treated as the opinions and views of that particular user, not that of the blogger or blog community as a whole.

Comment 31 comments  |  10 recs  | 

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Remember how the Pistons got the #2 pick that landed them Darko in 2003?

It was by trading Otis Thorpe (age 35) to the Griz way back in 1997. Thorpe played 47 games for the Griz before being traded for Mike Smith and Bobby Hurley.

Putting aside the fact that the Pistons botched the pick, the pick itself could have gotten them Wade, Melo, or Bosh. I can live with that.

by Sports2 on Feb 19, 2010 9:33 AM CST reply actions   1 recs

heck look at the Knicks pick going to Utah this year

for the Marbury trade in ’04.

USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 19, 2010 12:24 PM CST up reply actions  

Tyrus

We couldn’t keep Tyrus if we wanted to sign a max free agent. So getting something for him made sense.

by RM on Feb 19, 2010 9:57 AM CST reply actions  

at the expense of

making a team better who’s trying to knock us out of contention, and not getting much value back. if the purpose was to create cap space, we could’ve kept him for 30 games and let him walk. look at that, same thing accomplished! with a better team and frontcourt for this season. why can’t people understand that?

by Jack M on Feb 19, 2010 10:33 AM CST up reply actions  

Because a pick is better than the nothing in the offseason

and really Milwaukee is the only team that can knock us completely out of the playoffs.

by CrashDavis on Feb 19, 2010 10:44 AM CST up reply actions  

a pick possibly 3-5 years down the road is better than

increased playoff revenue?
increased development for rose / deng / noah?
being a playoff team and maintaining the developing image?

but you’re right on the charlotte can’t knock us out, my bad

by Jack M on Feb 19, 2010 11:07 AM CST up reply actions  

Not to speak for Jack M

But I think he meant that by helping two of their closest playoff competitors with these trades, the Bulls might not make the postseason, thus hindering the core’s development.

by MrSportsKnowItAll.com on Feb 20, 2010 7:31 PM CST up reply actions  

Even if we don't make the playoffs...

I really don’t think missing out on one playoff series (during which the Bulls will inevitably lose) will be that significant of a loss in development. The bigger issue is that the Bulls don’t look as good to FAs.

by Poloplaya14 on Feb 21, 2010 12:22 AM CST up reply actions  

It could possibly be depending on how high the pick is and

who is coming out that year.

Joakim on whether he ever tried tennis: "I played a little bit. If anybody on the Bulls wanted to play me, I would kick their ass."

by bigballa10 on Feb 20, 2010 12:36 PM CST up reply actions  

Sorry but to disagree, but

saying only Milwaukee can knock the Bulls out of the playoffs isn’t exactly accurate. Let’s say the Bucks go on a tear over the next 20 games. Then it could quite likely come down to the Bulls and Bobcats for the 8 seed. When you are fighting for one of the final postseason berths, making one of your closest competitors better is not a recommended strategy.

by MrSportsKnowItAll.com on Feb 19, 2010 11:21 AM CST up reply actions  

Miami is in free fall

and Wade might be out for a little bit. And the Bulls have a VERY favorable schedule to finish the regular season. If the Bulls fall to 9th and miss the playoffs, then they’re not good enough to be there anyway.

Personally, I don’t think these trades really affect the Bulls’ fortunes for this season. Sure, we lost some talent, but the team is pretty much intact.

by kozzer on Feb 19, 2010 2:43 PM CST up reply actions  

5 game win streak, Mr. Funk

though agreed if Wade’s injury is significant they’re obviously screwed.

USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 20, 2010 12:02 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm all for getting something for a guy before he walks

Tyrus had no future in Chi, may as well pick up an asset or two for him before he ends up elsewhere

by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Feb 19, 2010 12:00 PM CST up reply actions  

but they could have kept him if they failed to get a max FA

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Feb 19, 2010 11:31 AM CST up reply actions  

still can, think Bobcats will match? :)

USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 19, 2010 12:25 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

They "can". They won't, though.

If he was here, they’d keep him just to say that they didn’t lose him for nothing and they think he has a bright future with _ as the new coach. Too hard to sell to the fans if they brought him back now.

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Feb 19, 2010 1:33 PM CST up reply actions  

Rec

Just for using the word “boobery”.

Nice post throughout, very comprehensive and pretty much sums up a lot of what happened.

All your base are belong to Vinny.

by BCs71 on Feb 19, 2010 11:12 AM CST reply actions  

Nice post

though I don’t think dumping Kirk Hinrich was an impossibility when we already ‘know’ that the Celtics offered their junky expirings and the Bulls turned it down.

It’s pretty optimistic from Milwaukee’s perspective to see if John Salmons over the awful SGs they had (Bell, Meeks, Stackhouse) can make up a couple games in the final 30. Salmons was playing better after the slow start to the season, an excuse that usually only exists for Hinirch, but still.

USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 19, 2010 12:27 PM CST reply actions  

Awesome post. I wish I would have read your Mr.Sports Know-it- All writeup on the shafting of Thomas before I wrote

my rant “In Defense of Tyrus”. It could have saved me a lot of research and you made all the points much more clearly than what I was trying to convey. Two thumbs Way up for a great and informative analysis. I wish I was aware of your blog before now.

Your points are irrefutable in my opinion and very clearly presented. I hope you will do more of this on Bab in the future. I too want to see Vinny Del Incompetento’s coaching career reach it’s Armageddon before his cluelessness causes the Bulls to reach their’s first.

If you can't answer a man's arguments, all is not lost. You can still call him vile names.
Elbert Hubbard

by Tyrusmancrush on Feb 19, 2010 10:37 PM CST reply actions  

PS. Gene Shalit almost looks like Clark Gable

when compared to our GM. I’d be afraid to make a deal with his mug staring at me across the bargaining table.

If you can't answer a man's arguments, all is not lost. You can still call him vile names.
Elbert Hubbard

by Tyrusmancrush on Feb 19, 2010 10:40 PM CST up reply actions  

Thanks Tyrusmancrush, I appreciate the feedback

It’s funny, because a friend of mine emailed me your post after he read mine. That’s how I found out about this place. I’m actually working on another entry right now.

by MrSportsKnowItAll.com on Feb 19, 2010 11:56 PM CST up reply actions  

Go to the Charlotte Bobcats website....after just one game, Tyrus is now the fan favorite

They’ve come up with a slew of nicknames already…you may want to link your writeup over there. I don’t know how to do that. My favorite is tyranasauras (the awesome predator). One said he got so excited watching Tyrus’s blocks he kept pinching his nipples and now they’re bleeding. Another said the announcers were having multiple orgasms watching him perform. The Charlotte Observor loaded their photos with Thomas highlights. He commented that he loved the way Larry Brown got on him for his mistakes and than let him go back on the court to fix them. The fans comments are hilarious and all giving him super raves which will only help him get better.

It’s a crime that PaxDork hired a novice like DelNegro instead of a real NBA coach.

If you can't answer a man's arguments, all is not lost. You can still call him vile names.
Elbert Hubbard

by Tyrusmancrush on Feb 20, 2010 1:01 AM CST reply actions  

The Larry Brown part is the key

He got on him for his mistakes but he let him back on the court and didn’t just bury him. What kills me the most about a lot of the comments I see is the double standard with regard to bad shots or mistakes made in general. Every player takes bad shots or makes bad turnovers sometimes. With Tyrus, the positives outweighed the negatives and hopefully we’ll see him get more steady playing time.

Joakim on whether he ever tried tennis: "I played a little bit. If anybody on the Bulls wanted to play me, I would kick their ass."

by bigballa10 on Feb 20, 2010 12:42 PM CST up reply actions  

Exactly. Tyrus is a mistake player…probably always will be. I just never saw how his mistakes blew games for us. I have seen Salmons make mistakes to actually lose a game(when he did some lame spin move and got stripped by Wade last year). I’ve seen Miller throw away numerous possessions. But that’s cool. I understand Tyrus wasn’t gonna work here and that he has many flaws. In the end the positives did outweigh the negatives. Some people on here are too forgiving of Tyrus, his attitude was pretty shitty…a lot of his problems he brought on himself. however it irks me how people try to play him like he was a scrub that was ruining the team. Same thing happened to BG. Another flawed player who helped more than he hurt overall, again pretty much slammed by the Grabowski Chitown fans.

Case in point, ppl lost their damn mind in game 1 where Tyrus took the ball up the floor instead of passing it….which I can admit was stupid as all hell. However dude won the game for us by hitting 3 jumpers in the clutch…but no one remembers that. Just the one dumb play. Once people get a perception about a player, then it’s a wrap. Tyrus=malcontent idiot and BG=ballhog, selfish. Some of that is true about each guy but it wasn’t all they brought to the table. I just think people should be a little more fair in their evaluations of a player instead of seeing it all in black or white.

by C Smoove on Feb 20, 2010 2:21 PM CST up reply actions   2 recs

Agree completely about the treatment of BG

I was never a huge fan of Gordon’s game, but he was the only player (before Rose got here) who had a legitimately elite NBA skill: The guy was a great shotmaker. But he wasn’t a capable defender or ballhandler, and as crappy organizations do, the Bulls only see players for their flaws. So they prefer guys like Hinrich and Deng, who don’t do anything particularly well, but don’t have any major faults, either, and it’s just a recipe for mediocrity.

by MrSportsKnowItAll.com on Feb 20, 2010 7:42 PM CST up reply actions   2 recs

Great post

I wish I could rec this ten more times. It was a very good read and one of the most sane posts I’ve read recently.

Joakim on whether he ever tried tennis: "I played a little bit. If anybody on the Bulls wanted to play me, I would kick their ass."

by bigballa10 on Feb 20, 2010 12:43 PM CST reply actions  

Recced for the Kurt comment.

Short of finding someone dumb enough to take Kirk Hinrich’s contract off their hands — a scenario that became an impossibility with Isiah Thomas out of the league

Picks can be bought from financially struggling teams.

Another negative is that the Bulls gave up their second-round picks in 2011 and 2012.

TT is in a better place (for him – Chicago >>>>>>>>> Charlotte), wasn’t going to get playing time even when it would help the Bulls, and was not going to be re-signed unless JR shuffled off the mortal coil, so I am not unhappy with getting a pick back for him.

THUMBS DOWN, WAY DOWN: Bulls trade Tyrus Thomas to Charlotte for Flip Murray, Acie Law, and a future first-round pick

We miss you, Ben Gordon!

by Granny Waiters on Feb 20, 2010 3:59 PM CST reply actions  

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