Caron Butler, Hayward and Stevenson from Washington to Dallas for Josh Howard, Drew Gooden and filler. It is not going to be easy to move Hinrich
ESPN is reporting the Wizards and Mavericks are finalizing a deal sending Caron Butler, Hayward and Stevenson from Washington to Dallas for Josh Howard, Drew Gooden and filler.
Sources told ESPN.com that the teams' negotiations only grew more serious and, barring an unexpected late snag, will result in the trade that will serve as the first major domino to fall to loosen things up in advance of Thursday's annual trading deadline.
Several sources with direct knowledge of the teams' discussions said Friday that the teams were closing in on a final trade construction that will enable Washington to truly launch its rebuilding efforts, realize significant financial relief in the midst of a disastrous season and achieve all those aims without giving up forward Antawn Jamison, which is the Wizards' preference.
If this happens and it is being reported as almost done then what does it say about our ability to move Hinrich. I think Butler is a better player than Hinrich and has a better contract and Washington appears to be receiving garbage in return. Expiring contracts have never been more valued than this trading season. It is not going to be easy to move Hinrich.
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Well Gilbert Arenas just made the Dallas Mavericks relevant again.
Nice job Washington!
Beasley spent the first two quarters like he was wandering through a forest.-Neil Funk
this is the one that scares me though
meetings b/t danny ferry and steve kerr.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
If fucking Steve Kerr does that I will personally send him anthrax in a letter.
That would totally kill 2010. If he’s that dumb he needs to leave the NBA forever! OOOOooooohhhhhhhhhh wasn’t Kerr drafted by the Cavs? Bastard is hooking them up like Mchale.
Beasley spent the first two quarters like he was wandering through a forest.-Neil Funk
by SoulEater7 on Feb 12, 2010 10:41 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Yea, him and Ferry are supposedly real good friends
If he does this he immediately moves to the top of my “asshole list”, I’m not quite sure he can surpass Rajon Rondo, he’d probably have to kill my mom or something to do that, but he’s right there.
Neil takes the fun out of funk
by Juiceboxjerry on Feb 12, 2010 11:16 PM CST up reply actions
Yes they were on the Spurs together
Joakim on whether he ever tried tennis: "I played a little bit. If anybody on the Bulls wanted to play me, I would kick their ass."
Over react much?
Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.
Wouldn't kill 2010
Amare would still opt out, and he’d still sign somewhere else if Cleveland wasn’t willing to pay the max (or if LBJ left).
please no please no
Nick Friedell: What's the biggest difference for you right now, compared to when you entered the league two years ago?
Joakim Noah: I would say eating breakfast.
A deal like that can only mean one thing.
Steve Kerr is going to be the next GM of the Chicago Bulls.
Taj Gibson is the face of Bulls basketball!
by Trey23 on Jan 5, 2010 6:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Feb 12, 2010 11:02 PM CST up reply actions
what the hell would the Cavs offer? Varejao? Mo Williams? Shaq?
Great.
I could see LeBron staying in Cleveland.
Wade staying in Miami.
Bosh going to Miami or New York.
…and the Bulls sign…a Carlos Boozer who without steroids drops 50 pounds of muscle.
by KentuckyBullsFan on Feb 12, 2010 11:06 PM CST up reply actions
who doesnt?
I mean his teammates pretend to like him, behind his back they probably call him the douche that he is….
Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.
For what Shaq said about Howard.
That was just classless. But then again it’s Shaq. I love Shaq but he is being a douche lately.
Hey MJ remember when you punched me in the face?
Ha! I’m trading STAT to the Cavs so that the Cavs and be in the finals for the next ten years ahhhhhhhh Lebron will win 7 titles !Arrrrrrr I have freckles arrrrrhhhhhhhhh!
Steve Kerr is an assclown btw! I’m sick of these ass hat GM’s hooking up their former teams. Stop fucking up the league and shitting on your employers. Fucking make YOUR team BETTER not the titles teams better!
Beasley spent the first two quarters like he was wandering through a forest.-Neil Funk
Oh crap.
The Cavs are going to win it all. Thanks to Steve Kerr. Who is no longer welcome in Chitown if this goes through. Seriously, why the hell you help another organisation that didn’t need help in the first place and NOT make your declining team better?
That would totally end 2010
LeBron and Amare stay, which domino-effects everybody else into staying
Why aren't they selling Rose's all star jersey?
it's haywood
and i don’t think receiving josh howard is exactly garbage in return. he’s having a down year, and there’s some questions about him but it’s not fair to call him trash.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
(but yes, clearly the wiz are on the losing end of the deal)
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
Umm Josh Howard is a dumbass.
Beasley spent the first two quarters like he was wandering through a forest.-Neil Funk
Dallas definitely gets better
Nowitzki, Kidd, Butler, Terry and Haywood – that is a pretty good lineup.
the Jet and Dampier and JJ
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
I don’t think this effects a potential trade of Hinrich The needs of contending teams who might want to improve their PG situations is the same as before.
A defense first PG who can shoot 3’s would be a good fit for what Orlando does. I don’t think they’re desperate for PG help though.
Jason Williams
has come back and played pretty well for them. If it wasn’t for him, they would be begging for Kurt.
The Beatles. The Fab Four. The greatest band of all time. John, Paul, George and Scottie Pippen.
I do get what he's saying though
It is a little eye opening when you see All-Star level talent (which Butler was last year, I believe?) getting shipped off for basically nothing in return. It kinda makes you think: “Well, if they’re giving that guy away for nothing, who the hell is gonna wanna take our mediocre stuff (pretty highly paid mediocre stuff) off our hands?” It seems like the market just consists of the teams that are trying to get a steal, and the teams whose hand is forced to give away the talent. So where do the Bulls fit in when they’re just trying to move some OK players and get a little financial relief?
Neil takes the fun out of funk
by Juiceboxjerry on Feb 13, 2010 12:44 AM CST up reply actions
don't worry
Next time Dallas plays in Milwaukee with Caron, he’ll get injured again. He does that a lot.
by KT on Feb 13, 2010 7:09 AM CST up reply actions
So Josh Howard is nothing nowadays?
He’s been having a bad season thus far and seems to have some personal issues, but this was one of the better starting SF’s for a while.
The Wizards need cap relief. It’s not like a team is going to willingly take Arenas, and Jamison’s contract will be berable for only a few teams. Butler and Howard are both having terrible seasons and could probably benefit from a change in scenery. Haywood is the most tradeable asset Washington has.
Taj Gibson is the face of Bulls basketball!
by Trey23 on Jan 5, 2010 6:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Feb 13, 2010 11:23 AM CST up reply actions
Yeah, it doesn't make our 71 million dollar man look so bad, aye?
It was only a couple years ago that people wished we had Howard instead of Deng
No its just that he has not been able to come back after his injury
He is rusty. He could still play well next year though.
A players worth in a vacuum is not nearly as important as their value to a specific team.
I can fill a quart bottle with water from my tap, and bring it to my neighbor, and he wouldn’t give me a penny for it. If he was stuck wandering through the desert though, THEN what would that bottle of water be worth? Obviously this was an extreme example of the principle, but teams like the Lakers and Celtics CAN’T afford to leave any reasonable opportunity to improve their teams on the table. For them anything but a title means failure, if the Lakers lost to say Denver in the playoffs because Fisher gets abused on defense, folks out there will not be happy. That the Lakers saved some money by not adding a player like Hinrich won’t make them any happier.
It's too bad our organization doesn't care as much when Bulls fans are unhappy...
"This is not Vietnam, Smokey, there are rules here." - Walter Sobchak
by Rose Colored Goggles on Feb 13, 2010 3:21 PM CST up reply actions
Not that I care...
But the Wizards are getting an All-Star in return for Caron Butler…and cap relief for Brendan Ha]ywood…this is not a bad deal for either team…Washington gets to audition talent for 35 games while Dallas gets another piece to try to fit in before the playoffs begin…
Take a look at the comparison between the 29 year old Butler and the 29 year old Howard….you could make the case that Howard is the better player statistically, and has been on better teams most (if not all) of his career.
Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.
I think Brendan Haywood is cap relief.
Or does his contract have an option?
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
You are correct...
But my point remains they are getting an All-Star calibre player for Butler…with a team option for next season.
Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.
by Dionysus2.0 on Feb 13, 2010 12:07 PM CST up reply actions
Kind of a weird trade to make for Washington.
But they probably aren’t blowing up to start over.
They are probably blowing up to get more money out of their franchise from that other owner. They are in the midst of negotiations now, I think they have two sides evaluate the franchise worth, then if they can’t settle on a price they move to arbitration.
The Bulls probably could’ve received the same players from Washington for Miller and Tyrus. Tempting, to be honest, especially if you then move Deng. Butler is a solid 3, would expire next year (so we could sign another 3 if we didn’t like him) and we wouldn’t end up losing cap room by letting go of Haywood after trading Deng. We would probably improve as a team too, with Haywood shoring up our front line. Butler/Deng is probably a wash, give or take.
Horrible trade from both standpoints
FIrst off, why would Washington accept a package including Miller and Tyrus, when they can get Josh Howard, an all-star caliber player?
And it doesn’t make sense for us either. You’re right, Butler/Deng is a wash, except when you consider that Butler is 29 and Deng is 24. And this trade would result in us having $10 million less in cap room next year since Butler is signed for next year. essentially killing our 2010 plan.
Who cares if Deng is 24.
Max contracts by 2014 may not even be as high as the 14 mil Deng is set to be paid. That would basically mean that Deng would have to be an all star starter or nearly that in order to justify his salary in 2014. You gotta think a few years ahead, otherwise you end up with contracts like 10 mil for Brad Miller, or 8 mil for Hinrich. Even if the former was the result of a mistake, you can trace that back to giving Wallace 14 mil.
You take Butler for Deng because Butler is probably a better fit in our offense. He’s more aggressive and he has more to prove with only one year left. You get Deng’s long term stranglehold (especially if Jerry won’t go into the tax as the cap shrinks) contract off the books by 2011 in this deal. You get a guaranteed solid starting player. You don’t lose any cap space because Deng took up what Butler takes up. You throw in James 6 mil for Haywood, or even Tyrus and you have a big man in Haywood that immediately gives us depth in the front court and comes off the books this summer. If it’s Tyrus for Haywood, we open an additional 6m in cap space (or it’s a wash if we were to let Tyrus go for nothing this summer). If it’s James, we’ve upgraded our front court in Haywood for nothing.
Washington does this because they want some young talent back for the pieces that obviously did not work well together, and Luol Deng fits the bill of young and talented. He’ll be overpaid in a few years, but Washington may be able to overlook that, as a team that is more likely to go into the tax than the Bulls, and also a team that doesn’t have a young star they can build around and win with right now (Rose).
Really?
Who cares if he’s 24? Anybody who cares about the Bulls success over the next 5 years. Deng is just entering his prime, while Butler is exiting it. Butler’s numbers are already declining significantly. His AST% has tanked and he’s shooting <30% from 3-pt range. And people complain about Deng’s lack of 3-pt ability… So why exactly is Butler a better fit in our offense?
And your point about long-term flexibility doesn’t hold water. In the NBA, based on how the rules are set up, you essentially have to overpay for talent if you want to contend. If Deng can maintain his current production through 2014 (and he most likely will because HE’S ONLY 24) his contract is far from terrible. Your examples of Miller and Hinrich don’t compare well to Deng’s situation. Miller’s overpaid because he got old (he’s currently 33, Deng’s contract expires 4 years before he reaches that age). Hinrich’s overpaid because we got Derrick Rose and he’s relegated to the bench. If we win the lottery and get a SF of Rose’s ability, we can talk about moving Deng then.
Also, your idea hinges on the fact that we can move Deng for expirings, which isn’t a sure thing. If we pull off this deal and get stuck with Deng, we have two highly paid SFs and 2010 is dead in the water. That’s just not worth the risk.
I was talking about including Deng in the deal for the Wizards.
But anyways, you don’t overpay to win.
Kobe makes 23 mil, Gasol 16, Bynum 12, Odom 7.5 and Artest 5.8.
You can’t reasonably say any of those guys is overpaid. Yes, the team spends a lot of money, but the key is that they get a good value for each of those player’s salary.
Opposed to a team such as Dallas that has disappointed recently:
Dirk 20 mil, Dampier 10, Terry 10, Butler 10, Kidd 8, Marion 6.6, Haywood 6.
Now, the only one that really looks bad is Dampier, but that’s 10 mil being wasted on him. For 10 mil they could’ve replaced Dampier with Lamar Odom this summer or David Lee. Imagine what that would’ve done to their lineup.
Now, these are two teams that operate in the tax. Since the Bulls do not, we hardly have room to pay a Miller 10 mil (again, not Miller’s fault, somebody else gave him that horrid contract, we just picked it up as a result of prior mistakes). But not only do we have Miller’s wasteful 10+ mil. We also have James at over 6 million. Then Hunter and Pargo combine for 3.3 mil, Gray was another million. Hinrich is 9 million for this season and we had to buy out Tim Thomas for at least another 4 or 5. It’s amazing that this team is even in the playoffs. Without all these shitty contracts, we would really have an opportunity to shine. With Noah and Rose only making 2.5 and 5 million a piece, Salmons and Tyrus at a reasonable 5.5 and 4.7 mil, those four combined make less than Tracy McGrady or Jermaine O’Neal do alone this year.
You did not address my main point though, a contracting salary cap and new CBA impacting Deng’s contract. Under normal circumstances, it wouldn’t be as scary to pay Deng 14 mil in a few years. But if salaries even decrease slightly, you would be looking at his 14 mil being equivalent to 16+ mil under the new rules. That’s a much tougher pill to swallow for me. Deng isn’t worth 14 mil currently if he keeps this up, I’m not sure what you’re smoking to think that. 10-12, fine. But he’s playing as good as ever, he’s not hurt and his contract is millions less than it will be in a few years. Combine that with a shrinking cap, an owner that won’t go into the tax and a new CBA that will reduce player salaries at least some what, and we should get rid of Deng while we still can because he will be too expensive of a luxury for this team to afford in a few years and will really hinder our growth and flexibility towards building a championship team.
If Jerry is planning to go into the tax, you can retract my statements and it’s not nearly as bad if he wants to gamble on Deng’s development at only 24. But not going into the tax… it’s quite possible in a few years that Deng will be taking up 25% of our cap room by himself and unless you’re a superstar that is nowhere near justifiable.
None of those guys on the Lakers is overpaid yet.... (except Bynum)
But they will be as they get to the end of their contracts (except Kobe, who’ll be overpaid at the end of his next contract, and Bynum who’s overpaid now). And isn’t that what we’re talking about with Deng? That he’ll be overpaid at the end of his deal
And as for Dallas, you obviously have no idea how the cap works if you think they could’ve just added David Lee or Lamar Odom if Dampier hadn’t been on the books.
Regarding the tax, the reason the Lakers and Mavs are willing to pay the tax is because they’re contending teams. As I’ve said before, I believe Jerry would pay the tax if we get to the level those teams are at.
And regarding the CBA, they’re not just going to instantly shift into a hard cap. Most rumors I’ve seen involve a transitionary period in which contracts like Deng are slowly normalized. It’s not like they’re gonna just instantly max the player max $10 million and say screw you to the teams with players like Deng (and almost every team has at least one contract like Deng’s).
Also, no idea what this has to do with Hinrich really.
It sounds like our biggest worry should be if the org actually moves Hinrich for expirings, not if they have the chance to. You know, the usual concerns.
The trade works out well for Dallas, no doubt, but these are the same two players that stunk so bad when they were paired with Jamison and Arenas this year (and a good shooter in Miller). Butler also makes a decent chunk of change next year, which won’t matter to Dallas but would potentially turn some other teams off.
The big positions of need for the teams willing to spend money will be the deciding factor for Hinrich, at least in my opinion.
Orlando and Cleveland could use some guard depth, LAL certainly could as well. Utah could benefit from somebody like Hinrich (that one is more out there), while teams such as Dallas, Boston and Portland are probably looking for big men.
None of those teams really need a small forward though. Odom, Pierce, Howard, Lebron, etc. so it makes sense why Butler might be had for slightly less than you would have guessed and Hinrich may still go without too big of a problem.
At least the supply and demand seems to favor Hinrich, whether that’s enough to overcome his inflated contract, we’ll find out in the next 5 days.
This actually INCREASES the value of Kirk, Tyrus, and Salmons…Deng too if the Bulls decide to go that route.
I think it will increase the urgency that teams like the Lakers, Nuggets, Spurs, etc., feel to make a move to add that extra player that might make the difference. If this trade triggers an ‘arms race’ in the Western conference, and we intend to trade some or all of these players anyway, Bulls might as well take advantage of it.
That's a fair point to make
Having it a few days before the deadline means the other teams in the league (East, especially) have some time to convince the West teams to trade for talent (even mediocre high-priced talent) to fill in some gaps now that Dallas has made themselves a bit better.
All your base are belong to Vinny.
TNT just confirmed this trade...
Great pick-up for the Mavs…Haywood brings them toughness and defense…and Butler is a really good player…
Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.
Butler looks frustrated this year.
I don’t think he’s done, by any means. I believe he has also played much better since Arenas has been suspended (stats would back this up, but I’ve read about it enough to believe it without checking into it too deep). Not being able to play well with a shoot first point guard coming off of knee surgery on a “me me me” team with a new coach isn’t exactly stunning. I don’t think Butler has been any less consistent than Deng in the last three years and he comes off the books years earlier than Deng, who has a rising contract in a contracting economic climate. Deng may be better than Butler this year, but next year it’s closer and by year 3 it’s much more likely that you’ll want Luol’s ~13m value to sign what’s available then rather than pay it to Luol. I’m talking about likely though, as Deng could very well become a first team all star, but he could also get hurt again or never improve.

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