Hollinger on Rose
Nothing really new. Rose is one of the 10 most exciting players in the NBA and needs to get to the free throw line more. Insider only.
over 1 year ago
snley
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heh, pretty much
I’m cool with it, it’s not superduper important that Rose is MVP this year or (ugh) ‘in the conversation’. He’s still young. If he gets better, Bulls get better, he’ll get attention. No worries.
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"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 10, 2010 11:51 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
Related post
Hoopspeak with a more esoteric look at Rose love/hate.
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"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 10, 2010 11:52 AM CST reply actions
Definitely esoteric, slightly maddening.
Derrick occasionally looks like Jamal Crawford, and though the imitation equals squandered athleticism, though that frustrates, mainly: It’s annoying to see any player comport himself in such a manner. Dribbling back and forth, crossing over, slinging a contested jumper
That’s the first and last Jamal Crawford comparison.
by JockstrapNoah on Dec 10, 2010 12:36 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
heh, I could've also used 'freedarko-y'
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 10, 2010 12:37 PM CST up reply actions
The problem is esotericism, its bad judgment.
I saw T2 at Walgreens in Deerfield he’s tall. if you’re wondering what his grocery list included: magnums, french vanilla ice cream and a 20 oz sprite
by Super-Structure on Dec 10, 2010 1:00 PM CST up reply actions
(Which free-darko suffers just as much when it comes to Rose)***
I saw T2 at Walgreens in Deerfield he’s tall. if you’re wondering what his grocery list included: magnums, french vanilla ice cream and a 20 oz sprite
by Super-Structure on Dec 10, 2010 1:01 PM CST up reply actions
I grow weary of this faux-analysis.
“I don’t like this player or his aesthetic style bu let me waste your time and explain why my personal preferences are important.”
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 10, 2010 2:40 PM CST up reply actions 4 recs
Holy fuck what horrible analysis
If the Bulls are missing some gears it’s possibly because Derrick Rose only knows one: Me Ball. Known fact: 123% of Bulls possessions involve Rose touching the rock into submission. He applies himself to the game, doesn’t let it come to him–which is an affront to particular point guard aficionados. One man watches the hyper-athletic one-man show and smiles in wonder. Another man favors Steve Nash’s understanding of pacing, nuance and facilitation. How you feel about point guards influences how you feel about Derrick. Like you alluded to, it has nothing to do with Rose. He’s a personality tabula rasa, a man who can’t be bothered to speak even when starring in–or is it staring in?–commercials.
I stopped reading after that.
"in this day and age of "let's erect a statue"-isn't it time Jerry Reinsdorf is honored" - The Swirsk
by RogersPark Kris on Dec 10, 2010 3:54 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
the same idiot implies the Bulls have had some sort of walk through the park.
What the hell have they done to earn Rose’s MVP hype? These Bulls munch cud to the tune of 12-8.
thanks for playing, guy who clearly hasn’t seen a Bulls game this year.
by M 80 on Dec 10, 2010 4:22 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
He's been a score-first point guard this year.
I’m willing to believe that’s not by choice, but I would feel more comfortable if he scored less but more efficiently, and assisted more. I’m very hopeful that will happen as Boozer regains his form.
Alternatively, I would feel more comfortable if Rose move to the 2 guard position like Wade, and we brought in a true pass-first point guard.
wow, that is the single most hateful thing I've read about Rose
this guy must be looking for some type of an award
by Basketball Smurf on Dec 10, 2010 7:08 PM CST up reply actions
Does esoteric mean poorly written and overwrought?
And WTF did Nash accomplish by the time he was 22? The Steve Nash that this assclown is blowing didn’t emerge until Nash was in his late 20s. Rose is adding new shit to his game every year. Let’s at least wait until Rose hits his prime before pegging him as a Starbury-esque me-first gunner (which even now is a ridiculous observation).
Though at least the dude recognizes that, in the end, he’s just a douchey rock-snob.
by drew gooden's facial growth on Dec 11, 2010 1:02 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Needs to get to the free throw line eh?
There is no way in hell in that Rocket game that he gets ZERO Fts. Devin Harris gets his calls. But Rose doesn’t AT HOME?!
(Sing song)...Everybody Hates Rondo...
You know a player is pretty fucking good when the only thing to criticize (offensively) is his lack of FTAs
which is caused by his incredible finishing skills around the rim. The title is stupid, because he’s clearly an elite PG. I’d agree if it said Rose “isn’t elite in the NBA,” where elite is top 10 overall or so. If he got to the line like Westbrook, he’d clearly be a top 10 player in the league.
Deng/Boozer/Noah: All your rebound are belong to us.
by Illini15 on Dec 10, 2010 12:01 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
He clearly is a top ten player in the NBA
I don’t care what anyone says
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 11, 2010 1:00 AM CST up reply actions
If this is what NBA basketball has come to, then the rules need to be changed
Excuse me, but Rose isn’t as effective as Westbrook because he’s TOO good at eluding defenders, slipping past his opponents, and scoring the ball like a man, in the flow of the game, without the help of the refs? I don’t disagree with Hollinger’s analysis one bit: in the National Basketball Association, Westbrook is the better player. But I do take serious issue with the fact that the rules and interpretation of the rules by the refs allow this to occur in the first place.
Which player do you choose in a game of pickup? Rose. As far as being a pure basketball player goes, Rose wins this battle. Unfortunately, the NBA fails to reflect this purity in the way that they call the games.
by Diz on Dec 10, 2010 12:29 PM CST reply actions 21 recs
VERY well said
It is some seriously maddening shit. And a damn shame that a player as good as Rose needs to constantly be downgraded by fans and analysts, essentially, because he’s too good. Good on ya, NBA!
Until Keith Bogans is taken out of the starting lineup, it's Tom Del Thibodeau
by Juiceboxjerry on Dec 10, 2010 3:39 PM CST up reply actions
That all that is the reason
Some people think the NBA is fixed. The Refs consistently suck.
(Sing song)...Everybody Hates Rondo...
I ALMOST renewed my Insider subscription just to read this article
but then I realized I’d have to throw away all those ESPN mags every month
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
by Ugh It Live! on Dec 10, 2010 12:29 PM CST reply actions 4 recs
You can choose not to receive a print copy and get a digital copy instead. That’s what I’ve done.
Lil' Jon, he always tells the truth.
can I get a copy with better writing?
and not random graphics about celebrities and whether Dustin Pedroia’s wife thinks his favorite MTV show is Jersey Shore over 16 and Pregnant?
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
by Ugh It Live! on Dec 10, 2010 12:45 PM CST up reply actions 7 recs
Apox on thee!
That’s analysis I crave!
Teams without Chapu lost 1173 games during the 2009-'10 season.
Rich Bucher's take
He was asked a question about why Rose doesn’t get to the line more.
Players who are both ultra strong and ultra quick are always hard to officiate. LBJ and Shaq went through the same issues. I don’t get the questioning of Rose not getting to the line at all. If a guy is not aggressive attacking the rim, fine, it’s his fault. But Rose clearly is as aggressive as anyone. My sense is that his incredible strength and body control allow him to take bumps and finish plays and the refs think, “Well, the contact must not have been that bad.” He might have to act a little bit more or learn to yell upon contact. A lot of guys have had to do that. He also just beats so many guys so cleanly that they can’t foul him if they wanted to; again, hard for me to see how that’s Rose’s fault.
Here’s the link to the live chat.
by bryield on Dec 10, 2010 12:45 PM CST reply actions 5 recs
Ya, I was gonna post this very quote
Once again Ric Bucher comes to Rose’s defense. This time I think he really nailed it.
Until Keith Bogans is taken out of the starting lineup, it's Tom Del Thibodeau
by Juiceboxjerry on Dec 10, 2010 3:41 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
I wonder if Bucher is just planting the seeds of his new bromance. Remember a few years ago he was thought of as the ESPN liaison to Kobe?
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 11, 2010 1:55 PM CST up reply actions
he can be the guy with sources when its the summer of drose's free agency
Derrick Rose is a motherfucking ninja.
It just sucks that the general consensus
is that Rose is worse because he doesn’t manipulate the rules of the league.
Westbrook, Martin, Wade, Kobe and Durant manufacture calls by driving without the intention to shoot. I am not going to complain about this, however when Hoopspeak or Free Darko have their Derrick Rose dialectics they should be…self-conscious enough to recognize that they are criticizing him for not running into people.
I saw T2 at Walgreens in Deerfield he’s tall. if you’re wondering what his grocery list included: magnums, french vanilla ice cream and a 20 oz sprite
by Super-Structure on Dec 10, 2010 1:15 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Perhaps
but seeing as half of BaB makes a (sad) point of saying he ‘avoids contact’ or even ’he’s afraid of contact’ it’s not unreasonable for bloggers and columnists to have this perception as well, no matter how inaccurate it is.
I have not gone to the Heat Index; and I never will.
by Dr. Handsome, D.D.S. on Dec 10, 2010 1:21 PM CST up reply actions
it's not so much "avoids contact" or being afraid of it
it’s that he tries to make the shot above all else, even when it’s very difficult or even impossible. i specifically remember a play where he was on a fast break and some big guy was near the basket. instead of going into him for contact, Rose did some crazy move where he ended up attempting something akin to a granny shot in the air. he didn’t come close to making it, and didn’t really get contact. just run into the guy and take a chance at getting the foul instead of trying that shot.
of course, in slow motion replays, you often see he is getting fouled but it’s not called. other than complaining, there’s not a lot he can do about that. it’s not his fault he’s strong enough to finish through contact and make the shot.
by M 80 on Dec 10, 2010 3:22 PM CST up reply actions 4 recs
This is called "avoiding contact"
instead of going into him for contact, Rose did some crazy move where he ended up attempting something akin to a granny shot in the air.
Teams without Chapu lost 1173 games during the 2009-'10 season.
heh
i guess i just don’t like the phrase “avoids” contact, because it implies he goes out of his way to not make contact, which isn’t true. he just tries harder to make the shot than overtly initiating contact.
even in the example i gave, he did try going to the basket, but he prioritized making the shot over just going directly for contact and nothing else. he wasn’t avoiding anything, but it’s clear his goal was to make the shot, not draw the foul.
but obviously
trying to make shots inherently involves avoiding contact to some degree. so yeah, sometimes he just needs to lay a shoulder into someone and not even care about the shot.
Hollinger recognizes this
He acknowledges that Rose’s style is more fun to watch but Westbrook’s “bull in a china shop” approach leads to greater efficiency.
"You can't be afraid to play somebody because they've got 3 really good players. How are you going to win if you're afraid to play? We're not going to be afraid to play - we're going to fight, we're going to attack, we're going to throw it out there and see what happens." - Carlos Boozer
by Jivas on Dec 10, 2010 3:13 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Wouldn't you be complaining if he never did the NBA travel? and refused to take extra steps or anything?
Games are only games because of the rules they have. Taking advantage of those to win is, by definition, part of the game.
I’m sorry it offends your sensibilities, but being cerebral and knowing how to get the most our of your energy spent is a big deal.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
I care about the way the game looks, first and foremost.
So my sensibility is pretty important for my judgment. You may think its worth it (on account of winning) to run into people, fair enough; however, that doesn’t make it wrong to value the look of the game more than winning and losing.
I saw T2 at Walgreens in Deerfield he’s tall. if you’re wondering what his grocery list included: magnums, french vanilla ice cream and a 20 oz sprite
by Super-Structure on Dec 12, 2010 5:33 PM CST up reply actions
Hollinger is an idiot,
who cares what he thinks? He also thought Brook Lopez is better than Derrick Rose. A 7 footer who grabs six rebounds per game; I’ll pass. It’s nice that he invented PER, but he’s an idiot if he thinks Westbrook is a better basketball player. Derrick has his flaws, but outside of getting to the line Derrick does everything better than Westbrook. The gap between their defensive performances has closed. I’m verry happy with where Rose is on that side of the floor.
He didn't say Westbrook was better. He said Westbrook's playing style was more effective.
As to Lopez, just because he’s had a rough start to this season doesn’t mean he wasn’t a very good player the last 2 seasons.
Well, isn't what LeBron did last night the living embodiment of The Secret, leaving millions on the table and turning himself into a hometown villain, all for the sake of winning?
Neil Paine, basketball-reference.com
Effective at what though?
What does he mean by that?
Yeah but it worked!
Look at how many points Westbrook is scoring without a jumpshot, that's called effective.
His perimeter game is truly horrendous but gets to the line like a power forward. And he rebounds/defends better than any other point guard in the league.
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 10, 2010 6:23 PM CST up reply actions
Rose needs to draw fouls on nights when he's not shooting that well
that’s all I want.
by Stacey_Is_King on Dec 10, 2010 3:36 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
True Hoop chimes in on both the articles in this thread
As much as I’m not an Abbott fan, I think he gets this right.
Yes, but unless the rules change
Rose still needs to learn how to draw fouls. He has said as much himself. Bemoan it all you like, but that’s the way the game is played.
i wish my local gym played by nba rules
id be looking like a star running into people every play and then throwing up my arms like i got hit by a truck
You need to change your user name to "confirmation bias"
by snley on Nov 27, 2010 9:23 PM PST
by sin on Dec 10, 2010 6:01 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
also remember when that ridiculous article about durant came out and he went bonkers after it?
lets hope rose does the same
You need to change your user name to "confirmation bias"
by snley on Nov 27, 2010 9:23 PM PST
i love how tonight's performance is null and void to some because it came on 25 shots
without Rose, the Bulls lose by 15-20 against LA.
by M 80 on Dec 10, 2010 10:29 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
holinger doesnt really seem like a guy who has a ton of random grudges against
players and teams, so its pretty likely to me that hes experiencing the same frustration a lot of bulls fans have already experienced: namely that if a few times more a game rose could redirect his talent for evading obstacles and use it to make contact with those obstacles, he would likely be the most potent offensive player in the league. i mean, hes so close yet so far, right? isnt that a little frustrating? sometimes when i watch him i start laughing and saying things like, “dude, you are already so good, if you could just wrap your mind around this little amendation in strategy im pretty confident you would soon win a title as the best player on the team.” rose has been terrific this year but its hard to stop thinking along these lines from time to time.
'David Lee is better than Taj Gibson, that is a fact. Consequently, Dorell Wright can shut down Deng.'
Can’t argue with that logic…
- Sleepy Freud
Not for me
Because I feel like the thing that guys like Hollinger wants from Rose is what sets him apart. At what point will being 6’3 and 190 pounds, yet playing like Lebron affect Rose from a health standpoint? I don’t know, I just don’t feel the need to see Rose run into Dwight Howard anymore or run into PF’s and Centers for an extra 5 ppg. I’m good.
Yeah but it worked!
but at this point there are very few ways for this team to get a lot better. rose getting
to the line 8-9 times a game is one of them, and perhaps one of the more seemingly realistic ones. so im sure it will be an ongoing issue.
'David Lee is better than Taj Gibson, that is a fact. Consequently, Dorell Wright can shut down Deng.'
Can’t argue with that logic…
- Sleepy Freud
Henry Abbott with a real nice reply
And right there in the last two paragraphs is pure evidence of what economists would call a poor incentive structure.
Rose is playing precisely how the league, and fans, would like him to play to star in highlights, sell tickets and get people out of their seats high-fiving each other.
Yet, perversely, if he wants to really win, and climb to the top of his profession, he is incented to hone the art of trading the game’s best moments — acrobatic scores in the paint — for the very worst the NBA has to offer: standing around waiting for free throws.
by reprisal on Dec 11, 2010 9:39 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
yes, very nice
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
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