Play GM With Me...
If you've read my posts before you know I like to I like to step into Gar Paxsdorf's shoes a lot. Once again I invite you along for the ride. Some of you guys have some nice ideas (others are, let's say less than intelligent), so I'd like to see where you guys stand. So after going through the first full month of the season, and looking at these Bulls,what do you see? What do you do with these guys?
I know there are different posts that hit one or two of the subjects I'm about to bring up, but I thought I'd try to consolidate and add on. So here are my questions: (feel free to add to the list)
-- Do we need to upgrade any position, and if so, what are they?
-- Who do you target to upgrade these positions?
-- Who are the players who are expendable?
-- What other assets would you use?
-- If you are going to make a move, do you wait until the trade deadline?
My answers follow...
First of all, I'm loving what I see out of Thibs and this team, but we definitely have room to improve. The fact that every night this team has gone out playing hard, AND now has the talent to be more than scrappy, when doing so is huge. Our defense definitely needs to be more consistent, I think we have Championship caliber D, if we can just play it for the entire game. The offense really needs another scoring option. This may be alleviated once Boozer gets back in action, but I still feel we need another perimeter scorer. Letting Deng settle in to that 3rd scorer, might make this a moot point, but I'd rather not have to settle for hoping he balls every game out. Even with the inconsistent scoring, I still think the defense and rebounding he provides makes up for that enough to hold on to him. Give me someone else who can get consistent double digits, and I mean at least 13-15 pts/game in the starting lineup, and that should be a SG. I definitely think we need a PG, we need a guy to come off the bench and run the offense. I would feel more comfortable having a guy on the bench that could come in and distribute a bit better than Watson. And depending on how things go after Boozer comes back, I think we need more insurance down low than Kurt Thomas can provide.
With that being said, you would think that I would have CJ Watson and Ronnie Brewer on my "Expendable" list. I don't. I don't think Watson can be this team's backup PG, because he doesn't know how to run a team yet, but he can score in bunches and plays pretty good D. He can be used as a spark off the bench and in combination with D.Rose, and that makes him valuable enough to stay. Brewer is like the exact opposite of Watson, his offense is terrible, but his defense and energy off the bench are his valuable assets. He reminds me of a new age Cliff Levingston. This "Circus Trip" showed me that both are worth keeping. My "Expendable" list consists of JJ, Bogans, Kurt Thomas and Scalabrine. You combine that with our's and Charlotte's pick and you get the assets I'm willing to give up, it also helps that we have a little cap space to work with. So, we really wouldn't be looking for big money targets. And we'll probably have to get a 3rd team involved if that's the case.
1st priority, would be SG. I still say it's easier to get a complete guard who can score AND defend, or at least have the potential to rather than go for the big fish and open up holes elsewhere, while leaving the SG spot vacant. A low risk, high reward move is what we should be looking for. My top 3 targets would be OJ Mayo, Courtney Lee, and sleeper, Terrance Williams. Everyone knows about Mayo and my infatuation with picking him up, but I'm really thinking that the better option might Williams. He won't cost much, NJ has to be at it's wit's end with him, to keep him on the inactive and send him down to the D-League. Could we get away with sending Bogans, a future 1st(2012), and 2nd(2011) for him? I think being in a winning atmoshpere, with young leaders could really set him straight. If that's too much of a risk then go with the safer bet in Mayo. Lee would be my last option, all it would take is a pick to get him, but is he that much better than what we have now, I'm not sure.
2nd priority, would be backup PG. We need to bring a guy in here who can be a solid defender and be the QB of the team when D.Rose is on the bench. Watson isn't that guy, you can see how uncomfortable he is when having to run the show. His game is scoring, and when put in the situation where that was needed from him, you him flourish. But as the season moves on, we'll need someone capable of running the squad in the half court. We all know to perform well in the playoffs you need efficient half court offense. That person is not currently on the team. I don't think we need to trade, truthfully, I don't think one of those guys will be available. Even though, who knows who will hit the block around deadline time. The guy I keep thinking about is Anthony Johnson. He seems like a nice veteran pickup, who would feel that need perfectly.
3rd priority, would be 5th big man. I know a lot of people see this as luxury area, and question where minutes would come from. To me, if you are really trying to make a run at a title this year, and we should be thinking that way, then you have to have an insurance policy better than Thomas. I can't help, but think that Sacremento put Thompson in the starting lineup as bait. And if we can get him, I would be all for it.
If we are trading for a SG, I'd try to get it done in December or January, the others can wait until the deadline. If they're going to trade Deng, they need to do it right away. The longer they wait, the more it messes up this chemistry we have going.
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Sending Terrence Williams to the D-League was crazy
Dude could be pretty good, and the problems he has aren’t going to be fixed by publicly humiliating the guy by demoting him to the D-League.
I don't see how Terence Williams is better than Brewer or Watson.
I haven’t seen anything that would show anyone he’s significant enough of an upgrade to warrant giving up assets, and I’d argue he’s significantly worse than them. (For one, he can’t shoot.) And Courtney Lee is a slightly-richer-man’s Keith Bogans. He looked passable in a Magic system makes everyone look decent if they can shoot 38% from 3 and don’t make mistakes. Again, not an upgrade in the sense that he’s an order of magnitude better.
And as for getting a 5th big man, in about a week that will be Kurt Thomas, which is right about on line with every other team’s 5th big man. (Assuming, of course, that Deng or Johnson never slide down the play the 4 and that Scalabrine never plays.) And Jason Thompson is way better than a 5th big man. He’s at least as good as Taj, and would demand a similar price even if he’s at a relative low value because Sacramento keeps idiotically playing him at the 3.
by msquared10 on Nov 29, 2010 10:20 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
I would target Jose Barea if I am looking for a backup PG
The Mavs might consider Barea expendable after Rodrigue Beaubois comes back.
I have already expressed my hesitations about getting OJ Mayo in other threads, so I wont rehash them here. Another problem is that Mayo makes $4.4 million this year, so its gonna be hard to match the salaries for a trade with JJ, Scalabrine, Bogans, and Kurt Thomas, because all of them make less than $2 million each.
If the Bulls can get Courtney Lee without giving up a whole lot, then I have no problem with it. For SG, I would also target Sonny Weems, or maybe Nick Young. I dont see any of them as a starter, however, but as a scorer off the bench. I would stay away from Terrence William because he cant shoot.
they might consider Barea expendable but they won't trade him for nothing
It probably would cost us more than we are willing
by JustAnotherFan on Nov 30, 2010 5:41 AM CST up reply actions
Well duh
You cant get any semi-useful player on a small salary for nothing. I am just listing the players whom I think realistically will be available and would be useful on the Bulls.
I dont know what the Mavs would want for Barea. Looking at their roster, the Mavs are kinda weak in the front court since players like Brian Cardinal, Ian Mahinmi, and Alexis Ajinca dont play at all. Maybe they would trade Barea for James Johnson, since they are looking to trade Caron Butler as well.
Weems is probably a worse shooter than T Will and Wiliams is a plus creator and distributor from the 2 spot. Young has never proven himself, extremely streaky and indifferent at all other aspects of the game.
Thats just not true
Weems TS% is .525, Williams TS% is .458 for their respective careers. Even if you go back to their college careers, because their pro careers are still relatively short, Weems was a better shooter in college than Williams. Williams was a 40% shooter at Louisville.
Courtney Lee would be my top target
He has similar numbers to Mayo. (actually more similar to rip hamilton). Plus he won’t be getting a massive extension, like the one Mayo will want. We can get him for cheap, I can’t see how the rockets don’t take bogans, a first round pick for him. That gets us to a place where we can keep brewer on the bench.
Plus we now get a 35% three point shooter next to rose who can play d.
35%? Isn't that below league average?
Even Deng is at 35%, and Rose is at like 32.
excuse me Lee's 3 percentage is 37%
Mayo is 38%
T. Williams is 31%
Bogans is a career 34%, although just 27% right now
Brewer is 23%
league average is 35 percent.
My point was, that Lee or Mayo would be an upgrade from the rotation at shooting guard right now. I would pick Lee because Mayo will likely think he commands a high salary. And right now, Lee will probably be easier to get from Houston than Mayo will be from Memphis. Reports from espn are saying that Memphis will try and unload Randolph and not Mayo. Whereas, Lee is the back up shooting guard for Houston. They spent a bunch of money on Kevin Martin. Houston is in shambles without Aaron Brooks and Yao. But really, when they come back they won’t be competing with the West. If we offered a first round pick and bogans, then they get a back up to replace Lee and a pick to help rebuild the team after they realize Yao is not the answer.
Plus, Mayo and Lee have the same Offensive Rating of 106 (points scored per 100 possessions). And Lee has a better Defensive rating 108 to 112 (points allowed per 100 possessions).
lee is supposedly a good defender
and on his rookie contract for two more years….anyone have any thoughts on daquan cook?? Was in the 3pt comp a few years ago, is athletic, and supposedly a solid defender…not getting any time in okc
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
Just like Lee, these are fine players in the right system.
They can shoot decently well and play decent better than other NBA players. But simply because you haven’t watched them enough to see their flaws like we’ve seen Brewer’s or Watson’s, that doesn’t mean they’re worth pursuing. It’s not like we’d be trading Brewer for Lee straight up and calling it an upgrade. We’d be committed to our current players still and have to give up real things for these new players. Maybe they’re better than Ronnie Brewer, but I’m not convinced they are. But to be worth giving up something like a first rounder and in effect, burying at least one of our current players, this new player should be significantly better.
I mean, we already have enough limited role players in this position. I don’t see much added value in obtaining another, even if he is a little bit better.
by msquared10 on Nov 30, 2010 3:39 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
The thing I don't want is to sacrifice depth
I agree completely. I’d like Mayo or Lee, or rip (but he is way too expensive). However, I won’t sacrifice Taj, Johnson, or Asik to get a shooting guard that isn’t named kobe. What we would gain by adding starting production, we would lose by killing our bench. Scalabrine would have to play more. I don’t want that guy in the arena, let alone on the court.
Lee seems to be a good fit
"Maybe Paxson influenced has been a bit silenced :-) , although his carnage of the development of the team still persist"
I agree, in principle, regarding the targeting of significant upgrades versus marginal upgrades.
However, in the instance of absorbing Courtney Lee, I don’t think the Bulls would be “burying [any of their] current players” (unless you count James Johnson as someone who isn’t already buried).
I’d assume, after this hypothetical acquisition, Lee would receive all of Bogans minutes at SG and some of Brewer’s; Brewer, though, would likely see his minutes at SF increase to a small but non-trivial extent (which would have the correlative effect of resting Deng more substantially), and as such overall in-game depth would be improved. I’d also assume Korver’s minutes would be unlikely to decrease, due to his fairly elite jump-shooting, so I think any negative impact on current players’ minutes would be marginal at best.
Deng’s minutes will already be reduced with Boozer returning, since he’ll no longer be required to play PF. Brewer’s been playing well and I don’t see his minutes getting reduced. If all Lee does is take Bogan’s minutes, then he’ll be taking the 15 minutes per game that Bogans has been playing since Thibs started trusting both Brewer and Korver. Watson has also been getting minutes at the 2 playing alongside Derrick.
I just don’t see Lee or any other role player as significantly better than the role players we have, certainly not enough to give up additional assets.
I don't think there's any evidence that Lee is better than the players we have.
Sure, he’s better than Bogans. But so are Brewer and Watson (and Korver too, obviously, though we can’t expect Korver to do the things we want from the player in Bogans’s role), and it would be extremely easy to give Bogans’s 15 minutes to those two players.
Lee’s career-high in PER is 12.88; his PER during his “good” season was 10. And though he’s a fine defender, he’s no Artest or Mbah a’Moute. Simply being a 6’5’’ shooting guard with a limited offensive repertoire doesn’t automatically make you a shutdown defender, and it seems like that’s the premise being followed by most of the people here. (You see it even more egregiously with Mayo, who by most accounts isn’t even an above-average defender.)
can i play jerry?
You need to change your user name to "confirmation bias"
by snley on Nov 27, 2010 9:23 PM PST
I WANT MAYO!!!
mayo>melo on this team, just sayin
dear gar/pax,
trade for carmelo anthony.
thank you
then change your sig
I love phil jackson
by paddyfairview on Nov 30, 2010 1:18 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
This is annoying but...
I am going to go with the players that we already had:
1. Kirk HInrich, won’t score as much as previous option Ben gordon, but has “heart” or decent defense. Jamal crawford would be a close second. Ben Gordon would be welcome, is shooting REALLY well this season in only 27 minutes a game. Kirk would provide shooting guard skills AND backup point guard capabilities.
2. Chris Duhon, see kirk hinrich above.
3. I would like to see the 5th big man be much more athletic, instead of kurt thomas or some other dinosaur. Or a good shooting big man.
Rodman is the best.
4. Bring back Trenton Hassell
5. Eric Piatkowski
How dare you!
4. The Polish Rifle
5. Trenton Hassell
"in this day and age of "let's erect a statue"-isn't it time Jerry Reinsdorf is honored" - The Swirsk
by RogersPark Kris on Dec 2, 2010 3:17 PM CST up reply actions
Captain kirk back? not for a year
Kirk cant come back for a year from the trade, its in the rules somewhere, just can’t find a link… He is though a perfect fit for the 2. He can shoot, doesnt demand the ball… good team defender… and if anyone has seen the Wizards play, know he he miserable there. He looks lost (on purpose) while Wall is out and with Wall in, even moreso. There was a report from Sam Smith saying that even Flip Saunders said he misses Chicago, keeping his house here, and when his current deal is up, will look to re-sign here for little. As a Kirk fan, I would love this and more over to see him no near suicidal on the Wiz bench…
Lee J. Corwin
http://homepages.wmich.edu/~l4corwin/
http://corwincorner.yolasite.com/
I want J-Rich
If Phoenix nose dives by the all-star break, there will be a ton of teams trying to get him.
I believe he has 1 year left at 12 mill.
I would offer Deng, a comparable player, would play well with Nash.
I would also offer a 1st round pick to sweeten because of Dengs contract.
"I love you, mommy!" - Joakim Noah
So... what you do at SF?
And then SG and SF next year? Keep the 30 year old?
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
My top priority would also be a 2 guard
My ideal 2 guard is athletic, plays defense, shoots the 3, is a scorer, but doesn’t need the ball to be effective. I think Jason Richardson would be idea. But I don’t think the Bulls have the assets to get him. Thinking of guys the Bulls could get -
1 OJ Mayo
2. JR Smith
3. Marcus Thornton
All these guys have low salaries. All these guys are capable of scoring points in bunches and playing legit D on the perimeter. We’ve heard all about Mayo and Thornton, so let me make the case for JR Smith.
He is an athletic 3pt shooter, with nice size. He has the physical capabilities to be a very good defender, although he doesn’t put in the effort all the time. He is a 40% 3pt shooter this year and 37% over his career. He can score in bunches and would easily become our 2nd most explosive player. And he only plays 22 minutes a night, so its not like if he sucks we have to give him minutes. Furthermore he is in a contract year, so he will likely be on his behavior and committed to playing his best. The Bulls have had problems with “knuckleheads” before, but given the strong sense of team from the other guys, I can’t believe JR Smith could poison the lockerroom. I think its highly more likely he takes on the Bulls habits, than they take on his.
The one problem I see is that he makes too much money this year; $6.7 mil to be exact. Its hard finding a combination of contracts that Bulls would be willing to give up that may be attractive to Denver. But if I was GM, I’d propose two trades-
Trade 1: Watson, JJ, and Kurt Thomas for Jr Smith and Anthony Carter.
Trade 2: Watson, Bogans, Thomas and a 1st round pick for Jr Smith/A. Carter
I’d presume they’d rather have the pick, but you never know. I don’t see why they would do Watson, Bogans, Thomas because there would be no young asset involved.
by Basketball Smurf on Dec 2, 2010 4:06 PM CST reply actions
I've wanted Jr Smith forever
Its a gamble worth making, I don’t mind if he’s too “street” for the front office.
"I love you, mommy!" - Joakim Noah
gordon/thabo combo
a combo of gordon/thabo at shooting guard would look pretty good right now with the other players the Bulls have now.
My thoughts
— Do we need to upgrade any position, and if so, what are they? SG
— Who do you target to upgrade these positions? Depends on the price they come at, but I don’t see much point in acquiring a guy who isn’t a significant upgrade to the guys we’ve already got.
— Who are the players who are expendable? Again, depends on what we’re getting, but I’d guess the basic structure of a deal would be one or more of the guys we have who aren’t stepping up and taking that SG job as their own. Brewer, Korver, Watson
— What other assets would you use? Since the whole point is to get better than Brewer/Korver/Watson, we will probably need to trade assets beyond those guys to get a significantly better player. There are two possibilities here (not mutually exclusive). Trading for longer contracts (eg, Brewer/Watson/Korver) for Iggy), or trading players plus pics (eg Brewer+picks for Mayo). Of course, a player like Iggy might require taking the longer contract and providing picks. I’m fine with that.
— If you are going to make a move, do you wait until the trade deadline? Don’t see any upside to waiting.
BullsTwo > Back up and running!
use picks to sweeten deals
I really don’t see any room on this team for any more rookies in the next 3 years.
Use those picks to steal someone.
How is Mayo defensively? Does he at least try?
"I love you, mommy!" - Joakim Noah
he's pretty good.
I would prolly give his perimeter d, a solid B.
by chicagobullies on Dec 3, 2010 8:50 PM CST up reply actions
another thing to consider
while trading Brewer + Bogans + Korver + Watson, etc. in any sort of combo deal straight up doesn’t make sense, a 3-team deal might be more workable.
For an example, if the 76ers are looking to shed salary and willing to get a lesser player in return, they might do it for another asset,too:
Bulls give up: Korver, Brewer, own 1st round pick
Bulls get: Iggy
76ers give up: Iggy
76ers get: Korver’s return, Bulls’ 1st round pick, TeamC’s1st round pick
TeamC gives up: 1st round pick
TeamC gets: Brewer
Bulls: Rose, Iggy, Deng, Boozer, Noah, Watson, Bogans, Johnson, Gibson, Asik. Back-up guards is pretty weak, but starting SG is significantly better. Bulls have no, pick this next year, but they have their team set for the next… five years?
Philly has two late-round picks to draft-and-stash or do whatever with. Jrue Holliday is good, as is Lou Williams, Young is promising. As they let Nocioni and Brand expiring, they’ll have serious cap space (assuming, yada yada).
Team C gets a good wing defender for a late-round draft pick, which I think is a good deal.
TeamC = NYK, Miami Heat, New Orleans, Atlanta, Phoenix, Utah???, Denver?, Some team that would be willing to take on the surety o f Brewer’s contract going into the CBA negotiations. While first rounders are valuable, having a good, defensive SG for 4+ months this year AND STILL having MLEs, etc. is pretty valuable,too.
As much as I’m not a huge fan of giving up Deng for Iggy straight up (I don’t think it’s bad, just lateral), IF the 76ers want to get something for Iggy, I think this trade would benefit everyone.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
of course, i violated the number one rule of nba trades: matching salaries
Bulls out: Korver + Brewer = $9.7 (*1.25 =12.125) Bulls in: Iggy: $12.3 – close
Philly out: $12.3 (/ 1.25 = 9.84) Philly in: Korver + Filler from Team C?
TeamC out: $4.7-ish TeamC in: Brewer
CanI just create trade exceptions?
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
i'll play
I would love T-Will, he’s a beast he could give us solid min from the two and three, and give deng a little break.
I think he adds the flexibility we need and a larger two who can pop it and play d. Does she shoot incredibly from distance, no. But he is a definite upgrade and I would give our pick and a future 2, and maybe throw in garbage bogans, of course when he’s eligible to be traded.
I’m emphatuated with Mayo, but I just don’t really see him available to the point where it wouldn’t cost us an arm and two legs, but IF he is i say swing it. He has shown maturity (handling the bench role well), the ability to shoot, and the ability to gaurd 2’s bigger than himself. Him and Rose woooweee…. would be special.
I do see an upside in waiting, this team needs to gel, now with Booz. Our two’s could very well benefit from the addition of Boozer. With him comes a dump player, who can pass and for a forward has great court awareness. He can catch brewer on his slashes, hit korver when he’s going nuts running around screens, or command a double and hope bogus hits his open three other teams will gladly give him.
I do believe this team is a strong sg away rom being top 5 in nba, but they can get the job done without one. Overall, what I am saying is, unless a deal comes up to good to pass like T-Will for our first and a future 2nd plus bogus, or the same deal for mayo. I would not make it happen.
My first choice is T.Will. We need flexibility at the Sg and SF. We need to wait. Are my short answers lol.
I like Terrence Williams, too, but he's shown nothing that he'd be better than the current options.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
JJ + 2 firsts for Mayo
I would give up Charlotte’s plus one of ours. Anyone think that would get it done?
Would you make this trade? Would Orlando?
Chicago trades: Luol Deng
Orlando trades: JJ Redick, Ryan Anderson, Pietrus
Bulls
Rose / Watson
Redick / Brewer
Pietrus / Korver/ JJ
Boozer / Taj / Anderson
Noah / Asik / Kurt Thomas
by Basketball Smurf on Dec 4, 2010 1:59 PM CST reply actions
or this one (the first is my brothers, this is mine)
Chicago trades: Lu Deng, Kyle Korver
Chicago receives: Iguodala, JJ Redick and Ryan Anderson
Orlando trades: Pietrus, Redick and Anderson
Orlando receives: Lu Deng
Philly trades: Iguodala
Philly receives: Pietrus, Korver, Bulls #1 pick
Bulls -
Rose / Watson
Redick / Brewer
Iguodala / JJ / Brewer
Boozer / Taj / Anderson
Noah / Asik / Thomas
Anderson and Asik split time as the 4th big man
by Basketball Smurf on Dec 4, 2010 2:09 PM CST up reply actions
I like the 2nd one better
but I don’t want any parts of Redick. I’m glad Orlando matched truthfully.
I'm sorta on the same page as Sports2
A) I wouldn’t trade a starter for anyone other than a Top-20 player or a Top-5 player at his position. Otherwise, it’s likely a lateral move.
B) I’d hesitate to trade a good back-up for anyone other than a starter at the same position.
Personally, I like my idea best (duh, who wouldn’t?). Get a third team involved to use both Korver + Brewer and picks to get a serious upgrade at SG.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
MY TOP 4 TRADES (Dreams...)
1. Bull Get: Mayo from Memphis and 2nd round pick from Clev
Cavs Get: JJ and 2011 1st round pick from Chicago
Grizz Get: Ramon Sessions from Cleveland, Kurt Thomas and 2010 1st round pick
2. Bulls Get: Nick Young and Washington 2nd round pick
Wizards Get: JJ and 1st round pick
3. Bulls Get: Terrance Williams and 2nd round pick
Nets Get: 2010 1st and 2nd round pick
4. Bulls Get: Courtney Lee, Jermain Taylor and 2nd round pick
Rockets Get: JJ and 2010 1st round pick

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