Enjoy what Derrick Rose does on the court. You really should. It’s truly mind-boggling. But never...

ive certainly been a standard bearer for the "rose really needs to start doing X, Y and Z in order to be a star" crowd, but lets look at some numbers.

USG% Individ. ORtg minus Team ORtg Raw off. +/-
1. Durant 32.9 -3.5 +19.6
2. Kobe 34.6 -3.6 +8.1
3. Lebron 32.1 -2.8 +3.0
4. Wade 31.3 – 2.8 +8.0
5. Westbr 30.4 + 4.7 +5.1
6. Nowitzki 30.0 +4.1 +12.0
7. E Gord 29.5 + 6.4 +9.5
8. Melo 29.9 -.6 -3.3
9. Beasley 29.3 +2.9 +13.2
10. Rose 31.8 +3.3 +18.0

'David Lee is better than Taj Gibson, that is a fact. Consequently, Dorell Wright can shut down Deng.'

Can’t argue with that logic…

- Sleepy Freud

by TheMoon on Nov 22, 2010 5:21 PM CST reply actions 4 recs

shit. that formatting is rotten and i pressed "post" when i meant to press "preview. whatever.

these are the top 10 USG% guys in the league. each player in this table should have 3 numbers next to him: USG% / Individual ORtg minus Team ORtg / Raw offensive +/-. Right now rose is 4th in USG%, 4th in ORtg differential, and 2nd in raw offensive +/-. thats pretty great, and if someone suggested that rose is one of the 5 best offensive players right now, it doesnt look like that would be a totally insane idea, especially when you consider the amount of defensive attention he gets and the fact that unlike beasley and gordon, the team rose is outperforming is actually good.

'David Lee is better than Taj Gibson, that is a fact. Consequently, Dorell Wright can shut down Deng.'

Can’t argue with that logic…

- Sleepy Freud

by TheMoon on Nov 22, 2010 5:28 PM CST up reply actions 4 recs

Its not that the Rose haters are being reasonable

and the Rose devotees aren’t. Its that the haters don’t watch him every game. He seemingly improves or shows something new every single game, while taking on the double teams, while distributing the ball, while keeping the whole team involved, while not complaining to the refs, while not making excuses, while not flailing his arms for effect and while giving maximum effort every game. And then on top of that he makes amazing shots.

That sense of newness every time you watch him is what inspires the devotion. Devotees can point out weaknesses as well, its just that they always do so with qualifications like, “right now” or “last game” or “at FIBA” or “vs Boston”, because the weakness you see now might be gone next time you see him.

He was labeled a project coming out of the draft and wasn’t supposed to produce right away. People talk about his hype like it was always there, it wasn’t, but its grown as his game has grown and as his game grows the hype will grow and the people that hear Van Gundy last week or heard Barkley last year and believe that they heard the truth forever set in stone are holding on to something that’s already gone by, so they hate, because they think Derrick Rose is what he is rather than knowing that this is all going somewhere and that that potential, three years in, is still the awesomeness of Rose.

by JockstrapNoah on Nov 22, 2010 5:23 PM CST reply actions 5 recs

word

i’m not familiar with the ddl forums, whatever those are, and i’m not a stats guy but i watch a lot of games. the national broadcasters have seen him enough times to know that he can actually shoot (3 pointers still not great but improving), but most of the out-of-town broadcasters still talk about him like he’s the same player he was as a rookie. i wasn’t aware that he’s now so often in the best-in-league discussion, and i really don’t care. i care that the bulls are off to a much better start than anyone expected with boozer out and that his fantastic season so far is the main reason why, and i care about the half-dozen (at a minumum) “holy shit!” moments i get watching the guy every single game.

i'm hot for teacher

by DLRoth on Nov 22, 2010 5:37 PM CST up reply actions 4 recs

I like that this guys says Rose is "only" shooting 34% from 3

Now, lemme say that this percentage is average at best for a “3pt shooter”, but the point is that Rose is showing significant improvement, and it’s enough of a threat to get opponents second-guessing going under screens on him.

I mean, Rose is already a very good mid-range shooter, if not elite. He’s only 22. I have confidence that he’ll keep developing his 3pt shot over the years to the point where he’s deadly from there.

As far as the dearth of FTA, that’s a valid criticism. Rose doesn’t get the calls he deserves, but at the same time, you rarely see him seeking contact like Wade, Westbrook, etc.

It’s amazing that Rose is a legit all-star player and still has this much room for improvement he should reasonably make over the next couple of seasons (especially on the defensive end). He’s not even close to his ceiling yet.

by kozzer on Nov 22, 2010 5:41 PM CST reply actions 3 recs

I should clarify, I meant "like" sarcastically

by kozzer on Nov 22, 2010 5:49 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs

yeah, i think the main reason we all have believe in Rose is he's legitimately made improvements each year to reward our faith

he works on stuff, and it shows. i honestly think he’ll be a good 3 point shooter, and soon. i don’t think these recent makes are just luck.
there’s no reason to think he won’t improve getting to the FT line either. while he’s not where other elite scores are (particularly guys that attack the basket), he has improved each year and has stated it’s something he needs to work on. no reason to believe it won’t happen. i don’t think the casual observer or “hater” gets that. they just assume he’s some fast guy getting by on the same skills he had in college. hell, it took until this year for the national media to realize his jumpshot isn’t a weakness anymore.

by M 80 on Nov 23, 2010 2:02 PM CST up reply actions 4 recs

i love stats, love em

but since when did someone’s statistical analysis become the end all and begin all of deciding which player is better than which? I think that is one major part of the problem. Fans of Rose say “Rose is great, he is carrying this team without much help.” Critics say, “if he is so great, why aren’t his numbers equal to this point guard or that point guard?” Efficiency has become this overused buzz word in basketball, as if its the begin all and end all of everything. Its an important stat, but its not everything. People make sweeping generalizations on how much better or worse a player is based on .1 to .2 percentage points of TS%. Its overboard. Westbrook has been more efficient than Rose this season as has Deron Williams; but I’ve watched both guys play a ton and I know who I want to have the ball at the end of game between the 3 of them and its Rose because of his ability to HIT shots and get where he wants on the court.

I just think you have use the combination of the two methods – the stats and the eyes – to gauge what a player means to a team. All I know is Rose means a ton to the Chicago Bulls. Rose means as much to the Bulls as CP3 means to the Hornets or Williams means to the Jazz. Is he as good as those guys, no. But he is clear No 1 option on a team without a #2 option (sorry Deng) and for the last 2 years he has carried the Bulls on that end. As the offensive scheme and his teammates have improved, we have seen a better Rose. If Rose can end up being overrated like Kobe Bryant is overrated, I’ll be happy.

by Basketball Smurf on Nov 22, 2010 6:19 PM CST reply actions 6 recs

Well said

I love stats too (math teacher). The issue is twofold. Sometimes the eyes do tell lies, although this is usually with the casual fan. I think the biggest issue is who Rose is compared to. Rose needs to be compared to other high usage players who are the focal point of their teams. I like TheMoon’s list at the top of the post. Derrick’s stats look awesome when you compare him to other high volume players. Rose is having a pretty darned good year compared to Kevin Durant this year. Rose’s TS% is only slightly worse and Rose has only been assisted on 22% of his made field goals. That is a really tiny rate! Most importantly, Rose is showing improvement year after year and game after game. As long as the improvement is there and the Bulls keep winning, all this stuff is just meaningless anyways.

"Mental toughness is to physical as four is to one." - Bob Knight

by DRose01 on Nov 23, 2010 7:27 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs

I call shenanigans, although well written, this is still veiled hater talk.

Rose is a fantastic player and hes ours.

So fuck anyone who wants to pull him down, based on stats or current flaws in his game.

You don’t need to be a stat scientist to realize hes a great asset to have on your team, he’s having a stellar season so far and IS creeping into the MVP\elite discussion.

He WILL improve as the years go on, will he be Kobe…..will he be MJ

probably not, who gives a fuck, hes Derrick Rose and he plays for the Chicago Bulls.

Good enough for me.

by mrdope on Nov 22, 2010 8:11 PM CST reply actions 4 recs

well-fucking-said

smiley face

by jsptvo on Nov 22, 2010 11:29 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs

Oh, Noam

That guy; the unfortunate Kings fan. No wonder he created an entire piece on hype, anti-hype and hate by basically adding to it with more of the same of what everyone has already said. What a fantastically pointless piece.

I have not gone to the Heat Index; and I never will.

by Dr. Handsome, D.D.S. on Nov 22, 2010 9:46 PM CST reply actions 3 recs

Let's make all the comments on this thread green.

It will look cool, and we’re almost there.

by Uncle Stanley McGoober on Nov 23, 2010 9:30 AM CST reply actions 3 recs

Vinny Del Negro should be coaching the Bulls right now

Theres one thing that wont go green!

I remember once former Bull Dave Corzine staring at a stat sheet after a loss when he had one rebound and Michael Jordan offering, "One more rebound than a dead man."

by Rex Grossman on Nov 23, 2010 11:37 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs

Green Time

runnnning tru my miiiiiiind.

"I’m stupid, but I won’t get my drama on/what I’m dealing with is too real for me to comment on" - Yeezy

by Belize on Nov 23, 2010 11:38 AM CST reply actions 3 recs

The article was lame

Get rid of all the extra words that had nothing to do with his main point and it boils down to this… “Derrick Rose said he had a goal of becoming mvp and a couple of homers said it might be possible, therefore i will troll everything he accomplishes because he isn’t really an MVP candidate.”

I find his starting point, that any serious person thinks Rose is an MVP candidate this year, to be untrue. Fine, we all admit he’s not the mvp… can we just go back to watching and enjoying a dominating offensive performance from Derrick Rose now?

by runningman on Nov 23, 2010 11:44 AM CST reply actions 4 recs

I’ve really heard fans of other teams (not that many really) suggest Rose being an MVP candidate isn’t ridiculous.
Not hearing much from our own fan base though.

"Well you're giving me the opportunity to agree with Bill Plaschke and Marriotti, I'm gonna pass" - Tim Cowlishaw

by Camry on Nov 23, 2010 4:18 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs