Bulls Pace, Off and Def Rankings Shooting Up the Charts
by tyger1147 on Nov 14, 2010 11:24 AM CST
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(And they have three All-Star level players, too.)
First, the link to the Basketball-reference.com page of the Chicago Bulls. I didn't keep track of the previous rankings, but all three were in the 20's just a week or two ago. It's good to see that a) they're playing faster, and b) they're getting better because of it. It's encouraging.
Second, Taj Gibson is making my whole they-shoulda-kept-Tyrus Thomas thing a moot point (although his 23.3 PER* is pretty awesome**). That's a good thing. Still, of course, Gibson's trade value is shooting through the roof. I figure the Bulls will screw it up somehow, probably by keeping him too long, giving him $6 million per year through age 55, and then trying to trade him. I digress. The whole Ben-Gordon-shoulda-stayed thing isn't moot, though. His 19.1 PER would go along quite well with the 20.9, 20.6, 21.0 PER's of Rose, Gibson and Noah, respectively, quite well. I think that's how the Pistons built their championship team.
*Of course, Thomas's biggest contribution is on the defensive side and PER is known for rating offensive production higher than defensive. So... how good is he playing really?
**I definitely understand that using PER as an all-encompassing stat has its flaws, but I think, here, we might all agree that it represents how they're currently playing fairly well.
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While it is...
good to see that you are now giving some credit to Taj, your cynicism suggests that you’d prefer not to have been wrong. If you believe that he is somehow overrated and should be traded, why not suggest to which team and for whom?
As for Tyrus, his attitude would be a terrible fit for the type of team that the Bulls organization is molding and developing. It is even more ridiculous to suggest that it would have been smart to keep Gordon. Only those who overemphasize the importance of stats like PERS would fail to see why the Bulls are better off without both of those players.
You mention that PERS have their flaws, which is of course true. But do you really need to consult such stats to arrive at the conclusion that the Bulls are “playing fairly well”?
The Bulls have a far better team – even before Boozers return – than they had with either TT or BG. They have a real coach now, as opposed to an incompetent one, and the players are apparently buying into Thibs’ system. There is every reason to believe that they will continue to improve throughout the season, and, barring a major injury, should prove to be a force in the playoffs.
by badnewsintennisshoes on Nov 14, 2010 12:20 PM CST reply actions 9 recs
Ugh.
But do you really need to consult such stats to arrive at the conclusion that the Bulls are "playing fairly well"?
You’re right. We should all just listen to Neil Funk saying the Bulls are awesome and call it a night.
TS% = Thabo Sefolosha percentage. It calculates how much you can be like Thabo Sefolosha. That’s why Keith Bogans is at 70%.
by Ozzie Montana on Nov 14, 2010 12:33 PM CST up reply actions
Of course...
I had forgotten that was the only other option.
by badnewsintennisshoes on Nov 14, 2010 1:01 PM CST up reply actions 6 recs
To them playing so well, the biggest part of it is that Rose and Noah are much better as is Thibodeau.
Not one of those wouldn’t have happened with Gordon and Thomas.
And they didn’t start off looking great, they’ve gottten markedly better the past week or so.
And yes, Gibson at an All Star level is overrating him. I’d trade him for Rudy Fernandez. Or Marcus Thornton.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Gibson has a nearly 20 PER and he plays some of the best defense for his position in the league. If he could sustain
this, he’d be worthy of an All Star bid.
by fundamentallysound on Nov 14, 2010 4:44 PM CST up reply actions
You're missing my point...
I agree that any group of players would improve going from VDN to Thibs. But the they type of players that the Bulls currently have on their roster are preferable to an expensive, offense only player like Gordon, and/or an inconsistent malcontent like Thomas.
by badnewsintennisshoes on Nov 14, 2010 4:46 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I disagree. I think a 3pt shooter and really good offensive player....
….is preferable to 3 guys who are pretty one-dimensional. But I guess what if the org says goes. So I’ll leave it at that.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
I'll take...
one of the best 3pt shooters in the league and a couple of very good defenders over Gordon, and without hesitation. Also, Brewer, while not a good outside shooter, is actually a valuable offensive player when playing to his strengths. I expect Thibs to do that.
by badnewsintennisshoes on Nov 14, 2010 5:02 PM CST up reply actions
I know you would. That's cool.
It would be a much grittier and more harmonious team. It just wouldn’t be as good. Vince Carter and Ron Artest are on really good teams, and neither is superstar. Team’s built off of everyone being nice guys rarely, if ever, win. And Thomas hasn’t been inconsistent this year.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
you can do better than that...
no? I mean that’s a ridiculous straw man argument.
Oh, and TT hasn’t been inconsistent this year? Great! After nine games of the fifth year of his career, his anomalous statistics underpin your argument?
by badnewsintennisshoes on Nov 14, 2010 5:12 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Also important to note how they fare in the 4 Factors during the circus trip.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/clubhouse.html
Thibs’ defensive mind is quickly paying dividends and they’re running an offense that just wasn’t feasible during the Skiles years. The roster may not be full of homegrown players but the guys work hard. And there’s an assertiveness to Rose and Noah this season that gets me giddy.
TS% = Thabo Sefolosha percentage. It calculates how much you can be like Thabo Sefolosha. That’s why Keith Bogans is at 70%.
I'm no longer even bother looking much at PER, but it doesn't
underrate defenders. Like all boxscore metrics it tends to overrate defenders that get a lot of steals and/or blocks, but aren’t sound defenders. If Thomas is underrated by PER it isn’t by much.
by Scotter on Nov 14, 2010 12:45 PM CST reply actions 4 recs
The Bulls have been dropping in and out of the top on both offense and defense
all season long. We’re still at a point in the season where a single game can change the team rankings by 10 to 15 spots. But really from the beginning of the season the Bulls have shown the ability to be a top ten offensive team once Boozer returns.
Okay.
Like I said, I hadn’t looked after every game. Just after like 3 or 4 and they weren’t rated so well.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Looking at the Bulls schedule on the circus trip, I could see them beating any of Houston, San Antonio, Dallas,
Phoenix, Denver, and Sacramento. The only team I can’t really see them beating is the Lakers in LA. If they split the winnable games (say by beating Houston, Phoenix, and Sacramento), then lose to LA, they’ll have gone 3-4 on the Circus Trip and will be sitting at 8-7 with Orlando coming to town. That would be pretty nice. If they can steal a couple more of the winnable games, they could be sitting very pretty when Boozer returns.
by fundamentallysound on Nov 14, 2010 12:50 PM CST reply actions
I thought Boozer was coming back sometime in late/mid-November.
That would be awesome.
"Did Michael Jordan join the Pistons when he couldn't beat them? No. He dug down deep and went out and kicked their fucking ass."
guess or did they say that somewhere?
really wanna see him in action when bulls come back to boston on the 3rd.
"I thought we were fortunate. I didn't like the way we defended at all in the second half. I thought our rebounding was poor from the start of the game. But obviously pleased with the win." Per, Coach Thibs after win over Wizards
Hope Bulls don’t play like this on the road against a playoff team. In some defensive stretches the Bulls were truley pathetic against a team with not much offensive talent. This road trip will definately show where the Bulls stand as a team. Not expecting much, especially with Boozer still out, but will be satisfied if the Bulls are able to win 2 games on this road trip, play OUTSTANDING defense by giving up less than 100 pts/game, and are competitive in every game.
I understand Thibs' concern, but to be honest, I thought Arenas just got ridiculously hot. He was hitting some crazy shots;
it wasn’t like the Bulls weren’t guarding him. He was just going crazy from three and raining jump shots from all over.
by fundamentallysound on Nov 14, 2010 1:28 PM CST up reply actions
The Bulls were outrebounded by WASHINGTON…
Which was playing the 2nd of back to back games, and in Chicago. The Bulls should have crushed them, but they got outhustled. I am glad they’re good enough to win games like this, but Thibs was 100% right. If they played like that on the circus trip they might not win a game. Fortunately they got through this one.
Most importantly, the Bulls are 7th in the Hollinger rankings
so yeah… there’s… that. :)
I have not gone to the Heat Index; and I never will.
by Dr. Handsome, D.D.S. on Nov 14, 2010 2:47 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
The trade value of Taj
I don’t think we are going to get much for him. We probably wouldn’t trade him for a 1st round pick. (Unless it could be in the top 10, even then)
A team is not going to want to give up a player nearly as good as him. And he’s on a very cheap rookie contract. PLus with potential injury issues from Noah and Boozer, or even Asik, its best to hold on to him.
If need be we resign him to 3 years/18 million in 2013. Not bad for a guy that plays real good D and can give you 15 and 10 if you need it.
by Trey23 on Nov 14, 2010 4:00 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
The trade talk of Taj right now should be a non starter...
He is on a rookie contract through 2013 and outperforming it by a wide margin…with this type of production on the floor (14/6/ 61 TS% +20 PER) he would be well worth that $6M per year as proposed.
Is this even a basketball game anymore, or am I watching a referee themed television show? -Juiceboxjerry
by Dionysus2.0 on Nov 14, 2010 4:42 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Tyrus isn't out there for his defense, really.
He gets blocks and steals, but that’s it. He’s long but not tall, and not that strong, and he isn’t known for being a real ‘lockdown’ guy or fundamental defender. If we’re taking a player for their defense only, I’ll have Taj.
by msquared10 on Nov 14, 2010 4:07 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
in 3 of thomas' 4 years thomas' teams have played about 4 points per 100 possessions better defensively with
thomas on the floor than off. so odds are hes a pretty effective defender regardless of your analysis.
'David Lee is better than Taj Gibson, that is a fact. Consequently, Dorell Wright can shut down Deng.'
Can’t argue with that logic…
- Sleepy Freud
Thomas' greatest strength...
as a defender is his shot blocking ability. Even I, as one who has never been a big fan of his, recognize that he is an elite shot blocker.
Having said that, both Gibson and Noah are good shot blockers, so Thomas wouldn’t be nearly as valuable to the current Bulls team as many others.
by badnewsintennisshoes on Nov 14, 2010 4:43 PM CST up reply actions
Because those guys play all the minutes?
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
No, but...
in case you weren’t aware of it, these questions are a touch more complicated than that. So, to use just one example, if Noah and Taj were sitting, and TT was in the game, it would be quite easy for an opposing team to draw him away from the basket, somewhat neutralizing his greatest strength.
by badnewsintennisshoes on Nov 14, 2010 4:58 PM CST up reply actions
Yes, we can make a up situation specific that would make either of arguments look great.
I agree.
Like, if Thomas, Gibson and Noah were all on the floor at the same time, it would be ridiculously great defensively. So much so, that it could have two offense-only guards in Rose and Gordon.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
and how, exactly...
would we have Boozer on this team with Gordon’s contract? Or would you actually prefer TT and BG to the current roster?
by badnewsintennisshoes on Nov 14, 2010 5:08 PM CST reply actions
I've already explained plenty of times how all three of them fit.
You can either trust me or work it out yourself.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Ah, TT and BG...good riddance.
Both are individually minded players that don’t regularly contribute to their teams success, as good as BGs shooting COULD be, he was streaky and took alot of shots, he was also a VERY undersized SG that caused us problems.
Don’t get me wrong BG going off for 40 is always gonna help, but he did that for himself, the next night we’d lose, cos he shot 2-23 and got put in a mismatch against a bigger SG and didn’t or couldn’t contribute on D.
TT was just plain inconsistent and moody that didn’t take direction well from coaches and teammates alike.
Say what you like about their PER, I really don’t give a shit what their numbers are while playing in Detroit and Charlotte, honestly, it means nothing when discussing the current Bulls lineup, you cant just say “oh BG 20.0 PER would look pretty nice about now”, its just not how it works.
We are in much better shape overall this season, ‘overall’ meaning closer to building a championship contender. I don’t see these two as potentially important pieces to that, that we somehow pissed away.
by mrdope on Nov 15, 2010 1:38 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
yeah, cool
see ya next time there’s a chance to chime in on a BG or Tyrus thread. I still read your stuff, too, but only because McHale can’t filter you out of the RSS feed.
BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 15, 2010 12:56 PM CST up reply actions
You...
are under no obligation to read everything that shows up on an RSS feed. Feel free to skip my writing in the future.
by badnewsintennisshoes on Nov 15, 2010 3:13 PM CST up reply actions
I don't see your oddly-robust byline until the end!
actually, your stuff isn’t that bad, I just hate that you only seem to show up to bring some lame-ass Gordon complaint and Taj genuflection.
BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 15, 2010 6:38 PM CST up reply actions
actually...
I’ve been restraining myself from jumping in on the remarkably off-base Bogans hate. He is much better than you and many of your crowd have given him credit for, and he fits quite well in this developing team.
As far as my “lame-ass” complaints go, should I then infer that you also believe the Bulls made a mistake by letting Gordon go? If so, I’d be interested to hear on what basis you arrive at that peculiar conclusion.
As for Taj, I seem to recall that last year I was one of the minority on this blog who was arguing that the “he’s too old to improve” naysayers were being ridiculous. It’s too early for me to enjoy a ‘last laugh’, but maybe a few of his early critics have learned something.
by badnewsintennisshoes on Nov 15, 2010 6:59 PM CST up reply actions
'you and your crowd'
you lame-ass.
BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 15, 2010 11:26 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
this thread...
sums it up pretty well. My posts are substantial (whether one agrees or disagrees with the content) while you resort to ad hominem attacks.
Instead of whining about which threads I choose to contribute to, misquoting me, and name calling, why don’t you try challenging the substance of my posts for change?
by badnewsintennisshoes on Nov 16, 2010 6:59 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Well said...
Is this even a basketball game anymore, or am I watching a referee themed television show? -Juiceboxjerry
I couldn't disagree more.
Well I do agree that Thomas was moody and inconsistent. The former comes with personality, the Bulls should have known that when they drafted him and they completely failed to deal with it. The latter comes from drafting an extremely raw project player, which the Bulls knew he was, and again completely failed to deal with. That said, Thomas has been neither moody nor inconsistent in Charlotte. So I ask, what’s different: the player or the organization? I know which it is. Do you? Besides, if anyone thinks you’ll build a championship team with moody players, you’ll be in for a loooooong wait.
On Gordon, I completely disagree. D2.0 not-so-subtlely impied in a different thread: the team loses because Gordon shoots a lot. That’s bullshit, especially the last two years under Del Negro. The team sucked on offense. There was not one better individual offensive threat other than Gordon. Rose had potential, but talk about inefficiency and inconsistency!!!! Gordon had to take a lot of shots because he was on a crappy offensive teams. When he played well, the team scored more. When he didn’t, they scored less. They relied on him repeatedly and needed him to be their offensive savior. That he was just an offensive asset, and not a truly great player may be partly his fault, because although he had his limitations, he worked ridiculously hard to better them, that he couldn’t isn’t to blame him for his shortcomings but to blame the team for not getting better players around him. Gordon is not a number one scoring option. He’s a number 2. But the Bulls continually demanded (by their actions, if not their words) that he be a number one option even though they didn’t give him a No. 2 or a No. 3 scoring option.
And while I do obviously know that you can’t just add up PER’s to say how good a team it is, I didn’t feel like getting into the nuances. This team would be better with Gordon and Thomas on it; that there is any doubt shows just how good of a job the organization did in souring people against those two players.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Get over it, dude!
This whole BG/TT mancrush thing was cute for a while but it’s getting REAL old.
Just GTF over it and enjoy the best Bulls team since 1998!
And holy misleading headline, Batman! What seems like a post lauding the Bulls improved play is nothing more than a whiny “I miss BG/TT, Whaaaaaaa!”-post. WTH?
by BAB-Bass on Nov 15, 2010 1:35 PM CST up reply actions 4 recs
Get meta-over it, dude!
There’s dozens of other blogs out there and thousands of other commenters. If you think I’m harping too much on this, then you know my view point.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Its not a fact that this team would be better with those two on it, not even close.
Wed still have problems with BG over handling the ball and having a backcourt that is way to small.
and Taj is playing very well, I’m done with talking about Tyrus upside\potential, Taj is playing well FOR THE BULLS now.
Tyrus has shown incremental improvement with the Bobcats, good for him, really, but I don’t think he ever would have come out of his shell for Chicago, so its irrelevant.
Yes, were a little thin at SG, that doesn’t mean BGs exit was a mistake, it was essential for re building this team and moving it toward becoming a contender.
not it wasn't
you’ve written nothing but conclusory statements
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
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