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Lessons from the Melo Non-Trade

I think big trades are interesting because whether they happen or not, they give big insights on why things happen in the NBA that we don't usually get to see.

* Why don't we see these insights under normal circumstances? Because everyone's a liar. For example, you've got Avery Johnson saying

Coach Avery Johnson relayed a message to reporters Wednesday that he gave his top draft pick: Ignore the rumors, Favors is special and not being traded.

"One of the agreements we made was, 'If you don't hear me say anything about you then it's not accurate,'" Johnson said, before discrediting an ESPN report stating the Nets were offering Favors in a package for Anthony.

"You know how it works out. One story or one source hits the wire and then it just goes crazy."


Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ba...#ixzz118gAF9hh

Yeah, right. Translation: We don't want to tell the kid, who would be pissed, that we just offered him up. So we'll blow smoke up his ass.

* And don't get me wrong, it makes sense for everyone to be a liar and to speak in blithe non-statements. For instance,

Forman said he spoke to Noah and Luol Deng, who both have been mentioned in reports about trade talks for Denver Nuggets forward Carmelo Anthony.

"If there's an opportunity to improve our team, we're going to explore it," said Forman, who said he wants to be transparent with both players.

Translation: Yeah, we don't want to trade Noah, but we're also negotiating a contract with him, so we don't want to tell him we wouldn't trade him for Carmelo. Because that's ammo to say he should be paid like Carmelo.

* Despite this, teams are practical about putting their players in untenable positions, and aren't going to leave a trade on the table forever. It messes with folks' heads and makes it hard to actually, you know, work on basketball.

Nets obviously/rightfully want story to die so Harris/Favors don't get trade questions every day. Safe to say, though, Nets still want Melo
{AND}
Annoyed as they were by delays/Denver indecision CHA & UTAH lose out if new deal develops: Bobs on PG upgrade w/Harris; Jazz on big savings

Wojnarski writes

Meanwhile, the uncertainty that’s surrounding teams involved in the talks is starting to take a predictable toll on egos and emotions at training camps. Even if a deal for Anthony never materializes, New Jersey coach Avery Johnson has serious repairs to make with Nets point guard Devin Harris(notes), a league source told Yahoo! Sports on Monday.

Harris had been a huge advocate for Johnson with former Nets officials by endorsing the hiring of Johnson over the summer, and a source says Harris is feeling "a little put off" that the coach is so quickly looking to send him out of New Jersey as part of a trade for Anthony.

As part of the original four-team trade proposal, Harris was destined for Charlotte and wasn’t terribly enthusiastic about the move. And that was especially true after Johnson had spent the summer selling Harris so hard on how much he needed him to help sell the coach’s program in New Jersey.

Johnson and Harris had an up-and-down relationship in Dallas, but Harris believed the Nets desperately needed Johnson’s discipline and structure, and pushed hard with former president Rod Thorn for Johnson’s hiring. Harris, 27, came to the Nets in 2008 as part of the Jason Kidd(notes) trade with Dallas. He had his best season as a pro in 2008-09 when he averaged 21.3 points and 6.9 assists.

AWKWARD!

* Teams, especially teams that have just fired their brain trust, will attempt to be gamed by other teams. And nobody's gonna offer squat if the player himself won't commit (from the Woj article)

Sources said the Nuggets had strong interest in trying to do a deal with Philadelphia that included swingman Andre Iguodala, but the Sixers’ inability to get a commitment out of Anthony that he would sign a contract extension with them made the point moot.

* Too many leaders means no leadership at all. All of this is especially a problem since

One of the biggest obstacles with cutting a deal with the Nuggets, league executives said, continues to be the peculiar and unclear power structure of the Denver front office. What had been the case under the previous regime has carried over with new vice president of basketball operations Masai Ujiri, the owner’s son, Josh Kroenke, and adviser Bret Bearup: No one talking to the Nuggets is sure who’s in charge, who’s making the decision and who can get everyone in agreement.

* And as always, what things really come down to is money.

The four-team trade fell apart when Denver kept trying to include more of its players in deals to spare themselves a bigger luxury-tax bill that would’ve come with the arrivals of Kirilenko and Favors, sources said. The proposed trade would have added $4.5 million in salary to their payroll plus another $4.5 million in luxury tax.

This is one of the strangest things about the proposed Melo for Favors/AK47 deal in the first place, at least to me. And it points to the previous point, that the Nuggets were sending mixed signals about what they want. Perhaps they weren't and still aren't sure. Or perhaps the new guys they hired simply don't know how the luxury tax worked and what guys made. It certainly strikes me as possible.

* Now that they're (presumably) up to speed, let me suggest one final push for the Bulls. The obvious deal to make for the Nuggets is one that puts them under the luxury tax. As things stand, they're approximately $12.5 (S2 Salaries ~ I haven't gotten around to adding their training camp fodder in yet)-$14M (Trade Machine) over the luxury tax.

Since most teams are over the cap, even sending back expiring contracts doesn't help the Nuggets much. For instance, instead of paying Melo $17M and being over the tax, if the Nuggets dealt for Eddy Curry, they'd have to pay him $11M and still be over the tax threshold. Which would suck.

So the right deal for a team trying to get the Nuggets to let go is going to give the Nuggets major savings, not major cost. There are two teams that could plausibly help here; Cleveland and Toronto. They both have big trade exceptions from losing their star free agents this summer. Big enough exceptions to absorb Luol Deng's contract without sending anything else back.

Star-divide

By happy circumstance for the Bulls, they both have fairly obvious holes at their small forward position. So they might at least plausibly be interested in Deng. Toronto's Brian Colangelo has reportedly been a fan of Deng (and all things European), so maybe he's the first guy to call.

So if you can swing that, here's how this trade works for all involved:

+ Raptors get Luol Deng for nothing using their trade exception

+ Bulls trade Deng to Toronto, Taj Gibson and James Johnson to Denver

+ Nuggets to Melo to Chicago ($17.1M in salary going out) and receive Gibson, Johnson ($2.8M in salary coming in), future picks and perhaps some cash on top.

This reduces the Nuggets team salary by $17.1-2.8 = $14.3M dollars. That is $14.3M the Nuggets don't have to pay to players as well as about $14M in tax they don't have to pay the league. On top of that, getting themselves under the tax will make them eligible for a couple million dollars of escrow payments and tax distributions from the league, which only teams under the tax threshold receive. In short, such a deal stands to benefit the Nuggets roughly $30M. So, um, I think they'd go for it.

If I had to guess, I think Melo is only going to be traded:
1. Where he wants to go (reportedly New York, LA or Chicago... maybe grudgingly New Jersey).
2. Where the team receiving him can offer significant savings (which basically means they can get the Nuggets under the tax). For the Bulls, that's dependent on the Cavs or Raptors help, but that's true of the other teams as well. Do any of the other potential destination teams have a player the Cavs or Raps would prefer to Deng?
3. Or, the team receiving Melo would be willing to somehow offer a deal so good its worth leaving $30M on the table.

FanPosts are user-created posts from the BlogABull community, and are to be treated as the opinions and views of that particular user, not that of the blogger or blog community as a whole.

Comment 35 comments  |  6 recs  | 

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Why would they trade Melo for 2 backups?

Not even Deng

Chicago Jazz > Three Am-Egos

by chicago030 on Oct 2, 2010 9:41 AM CDT via mobile reply actions  

If you read the long piece...

Apparently to save +/- $30M.

Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.

by Dionysus2.0 on Oct 2, 2010 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions  

I read it

But i still dont see Denver doing that deal

Chicago Jazz > Three Am-Egos

by chicago030 on Oct 2, 2010 11:27 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

They're still going to demand Noah

Instead of Taj in this scenario. They may be okay with the deal themselves, but they can’t sell their fans on 30mil in cap savings. They can sell them on a Nene/Noah front court and the wins that would translate into. That’s why one of their demands was getting back a “marketable” player.

by runningman on Oct 2, 2010 8:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's not 30 mil in cap savings.

It’s 15 mil in cap savings getting them under the luxury tax thus saving them an additional 15 mil in payment to the league.

by BAB-Bass on Oct 3, 2010 5:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

I know

that was clearly explained by Sports2. I didn’t care to specify that, since the difference had nothing to do with my main point.

by runningman on Oct 3, 2010 10:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

Its at least an interesting idea.

The trade would also involve multiple first round picks going to the Nuggets, probably at least one from both the raptors and bulls. better than giving up noah, and would be a place melo has said he would like to go to.

by Krandle on Oct 2, 2010 4:39 PM CDT reply actions  

You spell it out in a very logical manner,

but in the end of the day I can’t imagine that Denver trades Melo for Taj, JJ and picks. The money is definitely important, but a deal like that would cripple the Nuggets.

by dakoose on Oct 2, 2010 5:34 PM CDT reply actions  

Well said.

Chicago Jazz > Three Am-Egos

by chicago030 on Oct 2, 2010 5:41 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

But not for as long.

Anyways, I think they’re too wishy-washy to do that.

Go Rockets/Nets[CDR]/Bucks[Jennings]!

by Prevenge on Oct 2, 2010 6:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Not for as long?

I don’t understand what you are implying? They are getting 1 more year of Melo max and they are already over the cap. And if they are going to try to rebuild quickly they will need picks..Essentially this deal saves their owners a lot of money for 1 year that doesn’t look THAT promising… and gives them picks to rebuild faster.

by Basketball on Oct 2, 2010 6:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

It does not save them 30 million.

Factor in ticket sales, attendance, concessions, fan disappointment, (lack of) playoff games, etc, and suddenly the savings aren’t as huge.

by dakoose on Oct 2, 2010 6:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

Not so

The perverse beauty of a deal like this is most of their season tickets are already sold.

BullsTwo > Back up and running!

by Sports2 on Oct 2, 2010 9:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, but actually buying the ticket is only part of it.

Parking, Food, Souveniers probably bring in more cash than tickets.

by dakoose on Oct 3, 2010 1:01 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah.

Also, if you have a star leave, you can say ‘We did all we could to keep him here’ and the fans will believe you. Trading him? Not so much.
I’m just trying to rationalize their actions, though, since if I was Denver’s GM I would’ve jumped at the Nets deal posthaste.

Go Rockets/Nets[CDR]/Bucks[Jennings]!

by Prevenge on Oct 3, 2010 1:44 AM CDT up reply actions  

Remind me again, what did the Cavs get for Lebron?

What did the Raptors get for Bosh?

What sort of deal do you expect them to get and not be “crippled” by?

I mean, I agree getting a guy like Favors would be a long term help, but in the short run it would set them back a lot. And there’s nonguarantee he turns out in the long run. Or that Melo would even sign an extension with the Nets, which is what needs to happen before the Nets would actually offer him

BullsTwo > Back up and running!

by Sports2 on Oct 2, 2010 6:08 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions   2 recs

If they deal Melo now,

this season is over, so they get nothing out of it. It’s nice that they save 30 mil in contracts, but they’ll also lose tons of money when fans stop coming to games. Furthermore, the Nuggets, with Melo, figure to be a very good team, so they’d not only lose concessions, ticket sales, apparel, etc., but they lose out on extremely valuable playoff games. For what it’s worth, the NYTimes says that a playoff game is worth b/w 500k-2.5million. They’ll save some dough(maybe), but it’s not nearly as much as you make it out to be.

I agree, there’s no deal out there that won’t set them back, but in essence they’re going to be dealing for Taj and some mediocre picks(whichever team trades for Melo figures to be good enough to be drafting in the 20’s.)

All in all, I think that if the Nuggs do trade him, they’ll get more than Taj+picks(JJ doesn’t warrant a mention.)

by dakoose on Oct 2, 2010 6:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

I see your point with it

not being 30 million saved but this isn’t just money saved, it is also setting up for future seasons, what happens when it takes 2-3 years to put together a winner again? I imagine that would have a larger effect than just this year.

 If they trade Melo there is a good chance they try and trade all of their big contracts if anyone will take them for whatever talent/savings they can get. They would be giving opportunities to their next core of players and the charlotte pick would still be worth a lot, even the bulls would be worth something, late picks work out often for teams who draft well, at least in the sense that the players they pick usually are usually NBA caliber players..

Merchandise sales probably go down more than anything, but fan disappointment I am less sold on, just look at bulls fans who are gluttons for punishment. I haven’t done research on it (yet) but I imagine ticket sales are affected more after many years of no progress rather than just 1.

by Basketball on Oct 2, 2010 7:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

I doubt they trade away the rest of the cast.

I think they’re looking for the best deal that includes a player in return that allows them to be a good team this year. Chauncey’s still pretty good, they have a good center in Nene and just locked Al Harrington into a long term deal. Not that Al is very good, but they seem to be in “win now” mode. They knew they may have this problem with Melo when they signed Harrington, and you don’t sign a guy like Harrington as much as they did unless you’re interested in winning(ignore the pronoun disagreements.)

by dakoose on Oct 2, 2010 7:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

If they trade away Melo

Why wouldn’t they get rid of the other guys? No reason to half ass it.

by Grinder in Training on Oct 4, 2010 9:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

Chicago is a much larger city than Denver

It’s a lot easier to find 17 thousand fans willing to buy a ticket.

by tuluse on Oct 3, 2010 2:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

Well, there's several things to consider here

1. They’re not an utterly terrible team with no chance of the playoffs without Melo. In fact, I’d wager they make the playoffs if they’re reasonably healthy. Billups/Lawson/Smith/Harrington/KMart/Nene, that’s a solid team. Add Melo and a healthy Karl on to it and they’re a team that goes deep in the playoffs, but without Melo they’ve got a fighting chance at the playoffs.

2. That’s especially true if Melo plays the first couple months for them.

3. It’s very possible they lose concessions, ticket sales, apparel, etc. in any case. Fans are showing up to boo Melo because they know he wants out. That doesn’t exactly imply they’re going to be stocking up on his jersey, does it?

Fans aren’t idiots. They aren’t going to be happy with getting a shitty deal for Melo, but they’re also smart enough to recognize there’s no point cheering for a guy who wants out.

BullsTwo > Back up and running!

by Sports2 on Oct 2, 2010 9:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

Your deal is most likely to occur in the mid season

for the reasons you just outlined. I’d say that the Bulls and Denver are better off waiting to see what happens, and how the beginning of the season gets started.

Obviously you didn’t know this at the time, but the Noah extension and the Boozer injury are going to factor in now… But Booz will be back by December sometime and Taj has a chance to up his trade value as a starter… the injury could benefit us slightly if he plays well… Go TAJ!

by 72-10 on Oct 4, 2010 10:58 AM CDT up reply actions  

This is a very good point

Both the Raptors and Cavs got nothing more than picks for their stars

Denver could end up the same way I believe if they’re forced into a SnT with NY or face the prospect of losing him to NY for nothing. (I’m not 100% sure of NY’s cap situation but Curry comes off the books for them so I think they’ll have room to sign him outright.) This has been my guess all along.

And Denver’s holding out for Noah, Taj AND picks?? Come on, get real!

by BAB-Bass on Oct 3, 2010 5:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

No reason not to hold out for a better deal if you are Denver

The Bulls are still going to be there with Luol, Taj and picks in January if they can’t find something better. Just like the Nets would take him in January. If they aren’t getting offered anything they want, might as well wait to see what happens.

Teams that don’t need / want him now, might later. The teams that already do want him, aren’t offering the Nuggets what they want, so I don’t see a reason for them to move him right now. Of course there is the risk Melo gets hurt, but if they don’t like the offers right now, might as well take that risk.

by Grinder in Training on Oct 4, 2010 9:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

You could very well be right..

It’s all speculation anyways. I just don’t understand why they don’t want Deng in return if they are solely trying to win. Also, there were reports that they were a go for the NJ deal, which would be taking in young talent. I think that if they can’t keep Melo they are going to try and get rid of players they don’t think are part of their future (KMart, Billups, maybe Anderson, Maybe JR).

I am just of the belief that if they want to make as seamless of a transition as they can to the post Melo era they may as well take advantage of Carmelo’s overrated (in my opinion) status to milk some other teams to help them out with a) saving money and b) acquiring new talent.

Also, getting Al Harrington at about 6.75 per over 5 years is VERY reasonable to me. He isn’t as bad as his reputation says he is. He is actually at least a decent player in my opinion. So even moving forward Al Harrington can be an asset to them, whether it be as a starter or a 6th man getting 30 min a night. And with Melo gone they will need someone to eat up the USG to maintain the value of the other players on the team.

So, while I see your point, I still don’t agree with you.

by Basketball on Oct 2, 2010 7:45 PM CDT reply actions  

Great job Sports2 and Denver's management is a mess

Denver not understanding and not consistently being able to articulate what they want in a trade makes a deal impossible. Sport2 has this difficulty perfectly explained below.

One of the biggest obstacles with cutting a deal with the Nuggets, league executives said, continues to be the peculiar and unclear power structure of the Denver front office. What had been the case under the previous regime has carried over with new vice president of basketball operations Masai Ujiri, the owner’s son, Josh Kroenke, and adviser Bret Bearup: No one talking to the Nuggets is sure who’s in charge, who’s making the decision and who can get everyone in agreement.
Denver’s management team is too young, inexperienced and are like deer frozen looking at headlights. My own guess is they are operating from a delusional hope that a trade is not necessary and Anthony will sign the extension. If this is true, management’s inaction may result in losing Melo for nothing and 5 – 10 years of unnecessary losing basketball.

If they made the NJ deal in two years they would have their own 2 picks which assuming the team is terrible would be good picks, NJ’s 2 picks, the 2nd pick in the 2010 draft, Favors and significant cap space. 4 1st round draft picks, Favors and significant cap space. This is an enviable position to rebuild.

Denver’s management is a mess. They do not know what they want making a deal almost impossible.

by chgobr on Oct 3, 2010 5:26 AM CDT reply actions  

In fairness, that was me quoting Adrian Wojnarski :)

But yeah otherwise, I agree.

In fairness, there’s some truth to dakoose’s argument. At some point, if the return is low enough on trading Melo, they might as well just enjoy this season with him. But I do think that overlooks some big problems, like the fact they might not actually enjoy this season with Melo very much. It’s not a question of keeping him and getting a bunch of revenue or trading him and losing it, because his desire to be traded is going to cause revenues to fall no matter what. Pulling off the bandaid quickly, I think, would turn out to be better in that respect. They’ll still have a solid team going forward.

Just as a back of the envelope calculation, $30M/82 games is about $365k per game.

BullsTwo > Back up and running!

by Sports2 on Oct 4, 2010 8:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

You're argument is pretty good,

but I just have a nagging feeling that Denver wouldn’t trade Melo for the crap we’d be giving them. We can argue all we want about where Melo ranks among the top players in the league, his efficiency, etc, but he’s a damn good player and the cornerstone of their franchise. Getting Carmelo freaking Anthony for Taj and JJ, no matter how big the financial savings, would blow my mind. I can’t be the only one that feels this way.

by dakoose on Oct 4, 2010 10:26 AM CDT up reply actions  

And draft picks??

but yeah, even though i don’t agree with you in terms of how good Melo is, I will concede that his perceived value is probably much higher than what I think he is to other teams around the league so his trade value is still high…

by Basketball on Oct 4, 2010 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

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