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Around SBN: The Amateur Mathematics Of Linsanity

Bulls need to keep an eye on the prize. No, playoffs is not the prize.

This Bulls winning streak was so improbable, it literally hadn't been done before: the first time ever a team has won 5 straight road games against winning teams. They not only beat good teams, but often pretty handily.

This is the performance that could've been expected before the year: a very solid 1-7 rotation (now 8 with Taj an unforeseen solid contributor), a coach that won't try and screw it up by coaching, and Derrick Rose making a leap into stardom. Up until a couple weeks ago, a lot of things derailed that expectation: injuries exposed the awful back-end of the bench, and veterans Hinrich, Salmons, and Miller were playing far below their career norms.

But the path of a near-.500 season has been re-solidified, and the top 8 in the East looks fairly set (though only a few games out, tough to see squads like the Bucks or Knicks making much of a run), with the Bulls in that group and likely to stay. That's a fairly ideal result to the placeholder season that this is meant to be: be a playoff team, be a 'team on the rise', show off your new all-star in Derrick Rose, and get him help in the offseason. Success.

So it's a bit alarming, if admittedly embellished by my own paranoia, to sense the general tone around the team raised not to content competence, but to cherished success. David Haugh's column on Gar Forman is not meant to be read into that much, it's a weekend fluff profile on a guy who works hard and doesn't see his kids much. But there are some worrisome nuggets thrown in there, as well as in other post-road-trip-delirium, and news of trades turned down that has me worried that the promise of this playoff surge obscuring what should be the ultimate goals of this season: get maximum-salary cap flexibility, and get Rose another star to play alongside.

Part of that goal does involve being a playoff team, but as I've said before: while a playoff appearance is a nice perk going into free agency, you have to have the cap room to even get in the game. The Bulls recent success has raised my expectations to guaranteed first-round sweep (or lottery) to maybe giving a team some trouble in the first round. Pretty much like last year, which means fun but ultimately unsatisfying.

They've banked these wins, and Derrick Rose masks a lot of deficiencies, to the point where they will likely make the playoffs regardless of whatever 'chemistry-altering' a deadline deal causes. Given that the Bulls are seeking the cap flexibility in a deal, it's difficult to expect them to pull off one that also helps their present cause. But that's a risk they should be taking, as the stakes of getting top-level talent this offseason is more important then fighting for a 6-game exit over a 4-game one.

Because while it's been a great week as a Bulls fan, there's no reason to not be on guard for a future letdown (I'm especially worried my trip to the UC on Tuesday will be a dissapointment), and if that did happen: does the plan going into the deadline change again?

I hope instead the Org. is being consistent about what they want, and in that respect last week doesn't change things much.

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Well, after visiting other teams'

blogs, I’ve come to realize ours is the most pessimistic and uninspiring. There always has to be a cheap shot inserted against Del Negro. Who, by the way, rarely makes the same mistake twice. This current streak is seen as a fluke instead as a solid team effort where everyone knows their roles. The end result is seen as an entertaining first round and then dissapointment. I think the Bulls are playing their best basketball which is based on good solid defense and will be one of the great surprises of the playoffs. It’s the second half of the season that shows what you’re made of, and the Bulls are showing they are winners.

Stacey King-- "Ok, go ahead and roll it"

by Bullsarenumber1 on Jan 31, 2010 3:18 PM CST reply actions   1 recs

Explaining the pessimism

I think a lot of the frustration has to do with a front office that has been selling the “just around the corner” potential of this team for 12 years, with four different rebuilding efforts. It gets old.

Maybe the Bulls do have a nice playoff run in them, but if that’s the case, it will be in spite of, not because of, the front office. Not just letting Gordon leave without getting anything in return and without getting a replacement for him, but keeping five roster spots and approximately $20 million in totally, completely and utterly worthless contracts on the bench (the price of the Wallace mistake) and not going over the luxury tax line—for this one single year only, mind you—to help the team overcome those mistakes.

The bigger fear (at least for me) is that Vinny rides Rose and Noah as hard as he possibly can in a misguided effort to keep his job. Noah is already battling through injuries, and Derrick is going all out. That’s fine if you have a real chance to win, but not for a placeholder season as this one so obviously is. If Rose or Noah suffer a serious injury, it will be on par with Dusty Baker’s handling of Prior and Wood in 2003. And it will set us back another decade.

The Chicago Bulls: Clippers East, since 1999

by nateroth on Jan 31, 2010 3:46 PM CST up reply actions   2 recs

a first round entertaining exit wouldn't even be dissapointing

it’s that they have to build on that, immediately. Not run in place. A tough decision might be needed to sacrifice a bit now for that building later.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 31, 2010 3:55 PM CST up reply actions  

damn...

that loss to my Marlins is still hurting you guys, huh

we went out for pizza after the game. -dave wannstedt

by BULLieving in Miami on Jan 31, 2010 7:30 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

You have no idea...

Lord... please let the Bears pick a good WR at #49....

by kidronmusic on Feb 1, 2010 9:00 AM CST up reply actions  

I'm confused

How many of us have been screamin at vinny for playin rose and Noah last year. And when he finally does it for whatever reason and we’re winning again that’s a problem too?

I'm cuckoo for Kukoc!!!

I think I hate Reinsdorf more than I hate Krause

by Yibs on Jan 31, 2010 9:41 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

$ screamin at vinny for NOT playin

I'm cuckoo for Kukoc!!!

I think I hate Reinsdorf more than I hate Krause

by Yibs on Jan 31, 2010 9:48 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

uninspiring?!?!

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 31, 2010 3:54 PM CST up reply actions  

Well said.

OK I don't know shit about basketball.

by SoulEater7 on Nov. 5, 2009 9:51 PM CST

by sue369 on Feb 2, 2010 10:11 AM CST up reply actions  

wow

I totally disagree. This blog is generally realistic. We have people who understand the salary cap and statistics and they post intelligently about the game of basketball and the Bulls. What more could you ask for? A bunch of homers who swallow the Bulls marketing without question? I love the Bulls and always want them to win, but when I see the team sucks I have the right to say it, and bitch about it.

When VDN refuses to play his best talent (Salmons over Kirk or Gibson over Tyrus) he doesn’t do himself any favors and we point it out. In fairness to him, he’s been better over this win streak. As for making the same mistakes over and over again, how would you explain the defense he was calling against the Celtics in the playoffs last year? It wasn’t working and he kept doing it over and over!

by 72-10 on Jan 31, 2010 5:35 PM CST up reply actions  

Most fans are homers

who want to be tucked into bed and told that everything will be ok. They want to be told that VDN is a great coach that never makes the same mistake twice, that management is competent, and that the Bulls, as presently constituted, will one day win the championship.

by drew gooden's facial growth on Jan 31, 2010 6:56 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Meh, Salmons over Kirk was justifiable

and then he rectified it when Salmons sucked. I got no issues with VDN there.

And pretty much the same with Tyrus. They’re moving forward with Taj, and he doesn’t want his PF doing anything.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 31, 2010 9:57 PM CST up reply actions  

He wants his PF to play good basketball

Which Taj has done…he scores the ball when asked, grabs offensive rebounds, is a willing man defender and does not turn the ball over…

Don’t get me wrong, Taj is currently the weak link in the starting line-up, but he is playing better than any other option on the roster…

Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.

by Dionysus2.0 on Feb 1, 2010 7:27 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

If only Del Negro cared about defense...

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Feb 1, 2010 7:40 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

It's the Mark Jackson mantra

“give me great offense over great defense anyday!” Maybe because it’s statistically the hardest facet of the game to define most people don’t really see the value the players who are great at it.

by diedaily23 on Feb 1, 2010 8:00 AM CST up reply actions  

He must care about defense

a little bit

Vinny: "[Thrust] means pace, it means getting the ball out, it means getting your back to the sidelines, it means extending your outlets, it means getting the ball up the court into our early offense with plenty of time."

by runningman on Feb 1, 2010 2:26 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Except for TT

Go Rockets/Nets[CDR]/Bucks[Jennings]!

by Prevenge on Feb 1, 2010 11:31 AM CST up reply actions  

Yeah

And I’ll admit at least Taj isn’t forcing matters. Tyrus still forces too much, for all his considerable raw talents, he still is making the same countless mistakes….

Sadly....through thick and thin....

by majoyenrac on Feb 1, 2010 12:19 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

He played solid

during the 5 game win streak. He had a lot more positives than negatives in each game. He stayed focus, played within himself, etc.

by JockstrapNoah on Feb 1, 2010 8:28 PM CST up reply actions  

He's still had far too many negatives for a guy with his experience

I’ve been a huge T2 supporter for years….and think he’s got gobs of talent, etc….but there comes a point where he has to figure it out, and he hasn’t yet….he’s still a decent/solid player, but I don’t think he’ll ever be what I thought even coming into this year he was going to be anymore.

Sadly....through thick and thin....

by majoyenrac on Feb 2, 2010 9:22 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Last Year

Vinny mostly tried to have friggin Glen Davis beat us….and sadly Glenn Davis did ultimately beat us. I think the strategy was fine, focus in as you can on Pierce and Allen and try to let the others beat us….then Rondo showed his starry self and more importantly to that series, Glen Davis suddenly became a nice option as a KG sub out of the blue, and carried that through the Magic series.

I wouldn’t knock anything we did in the Celtics series. We were lucky with a rookie PG, a hurt star SG who we treated like an also ran organizationally, a hurt SF, our star SF on the bench, and Tyrus-Noah-Miller to battle with a Pierce, a still there Allen, Porkins, Rondo, etc….

Boston wasn’t a pushover sans KG against the then very hot Orlando Magic….that series wasn’t as good, but it still went 7 games.

Sadly....through thick and thin....

by majoyenrac on Feb 1, 2010 12:17 PM CST up reply actions  

You should check out scotter's post from a few hours ago.
I think the Bulls are playing their best basketball which is based on good solid defense

"Make good basketball plays!"
-VDN

by penguin1 on Jan 31, 2010 8:07 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't think any judgement needs to be made yet

For all we know Garpax are ready to pull the trigger and just waiting for the right time or package to come along. I agree with the basic idea of everything you wrote, that they should not forget what is really important going forward, but I think, as you even said at one point I believe, they shocked us all with last years trade when we weren’t expecting it, so I’ll reserve judgement til after the deadline.

Neil takes the fun out of funk

by Juiceboxjerry on Jan 31, 2010 3:22 PM CST reply actions  

absolutely

I’m just worried, is all.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 31, 2010 3:53 PM CST up reply actions  

I'd add that, as far as bargaining,

the last thing I’d want our guys to be saying is “wow, we blow, we really do need to unload these guys for expirings.”

The poster formerly known as Freethefro.

by MPG on Jan 31, 2010 6:51 PM CST up reply actions  

now-hidden post rec :)

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 31, 2010 3:53 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah...

what the hell was all about? Truly a bizarre post by that guy.

The poster formerly known as Freethefro.

by MPG on Jan 31, 2010 6:51 PM CST up reply actions  

I was eager to find out

and i’m a little miffed at yfbb for denying me the chance. Who do I hide my beautiful ladies from now?

Vinny: "[Thrust] means pace, it means getting the ball out, it means getting your back to the sidelines, it means extending your outlets, it means getting the ball up the court into our early offense with plenty of time."

by runningman on Feb 1, 2010 2:29 PM CST up reply actions  

Oh no,

the last thing we need are Chicago Cubs comparissons. Wood and Prior?? Who cares?

Stacey King-- "Ok, go ahead and roll it"

by Bullsarenumber1 on Jan 31, 2010 4:01 PM CST reply actions  

use the reply button please

though I’m not sure this pertained to anything.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 31, 2010 4:11 PM CST up reply actions  

Nateroth implying Rose and Noah's minutes is like how Dusty "mishandled" Wood and Prior

Which is a lie in itself. Rose and Noah are hardly carrying a ridiculous workload.

Taj Gibson is the face of Bulls basketball!
by Trey23 on Jan 5, 2010 6:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

by Ozzie Montana on Jan 31, 2010 4:31 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't think it's a stretch

to be concerned about foot injuries of seven footers. NBA history is not very forgiving on that front. Noah should be resting, and more importantly we need to be bringing in another big body—very soon.

The Chicago Bulls: Clippers East, since 1999

by nateroth on Jan 31, 2010 5:22 PM CST up reply actions  

Plantar fasciitis is a lot of pain

But it is very treatable. Just takes time. He’ll be back ok

by JustAnotherFan on Feb 1, 2010 11:24 AM CST up reply actions  

you also thought Kobe would be a Bull

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 31, 2010 9:58 PM CST up reply actions  

Oh man, what hurts me the most about that myth

Is that there were people against the idea of having Kobe…

by JustAnotherFan on Feb 1, 2010 11:25 AM CST up reply actions  

I believe you took a pessimistic view of this article on Gar

I took it exactly the opposite way.

To me, it sounds as if he’s just reassuring us that the plan they had in place at the beginning of the year is in fact actually working.

We have heard numerous times that the Bulls are one of the most active teams on the phones wanting to make moves.

He just confirmed it.

I believe they know in their hearts that as long as Rose, Noah and even Deng continue to play at their current level, they’ll be in the playoffs regardless they make a move or not, but they know they want to be as flexable as possible this summer so this article actually is kinda a good read.

He’s echoing what us fans think.

And in regards to his quote about them playing better now, makes them look better regarding trades, I got no problem with that. I think every GM thinks the same way.

He’s not letting the world in on some major secret.

by Option27 on Jan 31, 2010 4:47 PM CST via mobile reply actions  

yea i wrote in the fan shot

that my only problem with gars quotes was that it was gar, and i deem him as a good business man…in other words hes a freakin liar!

On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!

by piccolomair on Jan 31, 2010 6:43 PM CST up reply actions  

I've always said I don't care if he lies (though it's annoying)

and I believed that we should be more worried if he’s telling the truth about the ‘ball movement’ movement.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 31, 2010 10:01 PM CST up reply actions  

So he told Paxson to call his phone

so he could tell Haugh it was a rival GM :)

Nah, I don’t think anything in here is especially damning, it’s more of a growing sentiment here and by the traveling media that this success proves that they shouldn’t make moves.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 31, 2010 10:00 PM CST up reply actions  

this also implies that I think the Org. influences the media tone

which may be embellishment on my part, but seeing how easily they sometimes get led around maybe I give them too much credit.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 31, 2010 10:19 PM CST up reply actions  

I know you are in denial about this...

But rather than saying “Them” when speaking about the media, you should be saying “we” when it comes to the media…

Blogabull is probably read by more Bulls fans than the Daily Herald or the Sun Times….

Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.

by Dionysus2.0 on Feb 1, 2010 7:29 AM CST up reply actions  

And this is probably more on-topic...

I haven’t seen much in the media suggesting the Bulls should not make moves…I have heard more and more rumors as the deadline gets closer…

Some of us fans, on the other hand, are suggesting that only select players need to be traded at the deadline (Salmons) in order to guarantee max cap space…the other players (assets if you prefer) should be kept around in case we need them for a sign and trade this summer…

Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.

by Dionysus2.0 on Feb 1, 2010 7:31 AM CST up reply actions  

huh?

I don’t travel nor have any contact with the team.

And I don’t think there’s any way that more Bulls fans go here, else I deserve a raise.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 1, 2010 10:45 AM CST up reply actions  

though thanks for reminding me to ignore you.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 1, 2010 11:19 AM CST up reply actions  

I meant it as a compliment...

I look to your site first for Bulls news…whether or not you embrace your role as a member of the media is on you…however, in this era broadcast communication and journalism, blogs are becoming a more and more respected media outlet…

Frankly, if you wanted press credentials, I suspect they would be offered to you.

Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.

by Dionysus2.0 on Feb 1, 2010 3:22 PM CST up reply actions  

Quality over quantity.

Ever see advanced statistical analysis in the Trib or Sun Times comments?

And I don’t think there’s any way that more Bulls fans go here

We miss you, Ben Gordon!

by Granny Waiters on Feb 1, 2010 1:36 PM CST up reply actions  

Of course not...

That’s because statistical analysis appeals to a much SMALLER niche.

“Quality” is entirely subjective too, which is why this is a great place to come and debate. I like this site just as much for the “quality” analysis, especially when juxtaposed with the sometimes crappy analysis… Especially in the game threads.

Either way you can’t hold this site to the vanilla middle of the road standards you expect out of the Sun Times. Where is the fun in that?

How can we have the worst offense in the league when everything about our team owner and coach is offensive?

by Khalid El-Amin on Feb 1, 2010 1:46 PM CST up reply actions  

Imagine almost a million people reading Blog-a-Bull on their way to work?

Chicago would be a much, much meaner place.

Taj Gibson is the face of Bulls basketball!
by Trey23 on Jan 5, 2010 6:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

by Ozzie Montana on Feb 1, 2010 2:02 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Where did that happen?

Have a link to the article linking here?

Vinny: "[Thrust] means pace, it means getting the ball out, it means getting your back to the sidelines, it means extending your outlets, it means getting the ball up the court into our early offense with plenty of time."

by runningman on Feb 2, 2010 3:43 PM CST up reply actions  

Come on man...

I love this blog, but if you think more people get their Bulls info from here than from the Sun Times you are delusional.

How can we have the worst offense in the league when everything about our team owner and coach is offensive?

by Khalid El-Amin on Feb 1, 2010 1:23 PM CST up reply actions  

isnt the tribune the prefered source

so says Jerry Reinsdorf…

On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!

by piccolomair on Feb 1, 2010 1:26 PM CST up reply actions  

Perhaps...

But we can’t trust a damn thing that guy says anyway.

How can we have the worst offense in the league when everything about our team owner and coach is offensive?

by Khalid El-Amin on Feb 1, 2010 1:28 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

I still find it interesting

as I was watching the Lakers-Celtics game and all, that Kobe hasn’t signed an extension…..

I know Kobe wanted to come to Chicago and all….and know Phil’s likely to leave if they don’t win it all (though they “should” win it all, the Cavs did hand it to them)….

I just wonder while we the fans are screaming Lebron or Wade if the guy Pax has confirmed they have their eyes on as the prize is in effect Kobe?

I’d rather go younger….but hmm….

Sadly....through thick and thin....

by majoyenrac on Feb 1, 2010 12:23 PM CST up reply actions  

Bulls

wont make a move untill the last day of trading! they want to get as many wins as possible out of this group before they start trading kurt and Fish and maybe TT or Brad…

by rick_ross on Jan 31, 2010 5:15 PM CST reply actions  

I think a lot of the criticism of the Bulls front office is a little unfair

Particularly in regards to the common complaint that they constantly repeat that things are going to get better. I know this recycled line about how bright the future is pisses fans off, because we’ve seen time and time again that things haven’t gotten better. However, what are they supposed to say? Are they supposed to admit the futility of the team and concede that this is a treading-water season and doesn’t really matter at all. Because that’s a great message to send to season-ticket holders.

by Poloplaya14 on Jan 31, 2010 6:01 PM CST reply actions  

say "I quit"

oh wait, Paxson tried that.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 31, 2010 10:01 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Suppose Gar Forman was not a liar

Suppose he actually did intend to sign Ben Gordon to anything close to what Detroit eventually gave him. If the team still had a plan to move Gordon so Rose could bloom they would have an actual talent to trade to any number of contending teams that need a player with Ben Gordon’s skills.

It would have given us assets. Assets that could be packaged with weaker assets synthesizing the risk to make the counter party more willing to take Hinrich, Salmons, or Thomas.

12/31/08: Fire Vinny Del Negro.(upd: 1/7/10)

by NBA Observer on Feb 1, 2010 8:40 AM CST up reply actions  

indeed

thats what made the whole ben gordon thing stupid, i dont care that they didnt want him, i dont care that they didnt see him fit in future plans…what makes me mad is that they STILL COULDVE SIGNED HIm, and traded him…you know…GET SOMETHING for him…instead he just walked…..STUPID!!!!!!!!

On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!

by piccolomair on Feb 1, 2010 1:02 PM CST up reply actions  

Maybe they

didn’t get any good offers for him, you don’t what teams were calling the Bulls w/, this won’t be the 1st time an average players walks for nothing, Allan Houston left the Pistons for nothing and was an All-Star, give me a break w/ the walk for nothing crap, Memphis traded Pau Gasol for nothing, those might have been the kind of deals Bulls were receiving for BG

by QUINTEN DALEY on Feb 1, 2010 1:18 PM CST up reply actions  

memphis didnt let pau walk for nothing

they got something, even if it was utter crap, it was something…maybe pull of a trade with utah in the offseason for boozer and korver or maybe get a first rounder from some team in contention (orlando) that wouldnt have a lottery pick, i mean just wait a week and pick out the best offer, im sure gms get hundreds offers daily…….cuz at this point and time i wish we had another pick, or two, even second round ones, or maybe cash considerations, or another player that we could package…anything to help make moves now…

On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!

by piccolomair on Feb 1, 2010 1:26 PM CST up reply actions  

A lot of fans

here don’t understand acquiring assets and using them properly. Actually, neither does the Bulls Front Office.

by kingj41 on Feb 1, 2010 1:30 PM CST up reply actions  

Marc Gasol is considerably better than utter crap.

they got something, even if it was utter crap

We miss you, Ben Gordon!

by Granny Waiters on Feb 1, 2010 1:39 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

I was going to say the same thing...

Obviously Pau is better, but Marc is definitely a starting caliber player in the NBA.

How can we have the worst offense in the league when everything about our team owner and coach is offensive?

by Khalid El-Amin on Feb 1, 2010 1:48 PM CST up reply actions  

my fault, i was under the impression the lakers traded the pick

and the grizzlies chose marc gasol with the pick. So yea that wasnt a complete waste, but still at the time, and most likely even now, it was nowhere near fair value for pau….

Even more so my point is more about not letting players walk for nothing, especially players with talent like ben gordon (on the other hand pargo could be let go for nothing and id be all smiles) i mean we got SOMETHING for Aaron freakin Gray….teams were going to want gordon, teams would probably throw (and probably did throw) offers at the bulls for gordon, the bulls instead chose to let gordon walk…for nothing….i reiterate…THAT IS STUPID. more than anything, that was truly the dumbest mistake this organization made, worse than the vdn hiring.

On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!

by piccolomair on Feb 1, 2010 3:06 PM CST up reply actions  

And the cap space...

To trade for All – Star power forward Zach Randolph…

Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.

by Dionysus2.0 on Feb 1, 2010 3:55 PM CST up reply actions  

It was the first time a player so young, so good, played through the Q.O. and left for nothing.

Yes, it was. There is no precedent for what happened.

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Feb 1, 2010 1:34 PM CST up reply actions  

So why is it OK to let BG go for nothing,

but not to trade Kurt for expiring contracts?

Allan Houston left the Pistons for nothing and was an All-Star, give me a break w/ the walk for nothing crap

We miss you, Ben Gordon!

by Granny Waiters on Feb 1, 2010 1:38 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm all down

for Kirk(never liked him) getting trading for expirings anyway, my dream scenario was a Gordonless-Kirkless team in 2010, Bull get MAX FA, and the Bulls go back to the glory days

by QUINTEN DALEY on Feb 1, 2010 1:44 PM CST up reply actions  

You think Marc Gasol is nothing?

If ALL the Bulls had got for Gordon was Gasol, I’d be pretty damned ecstatic.

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Feb 1, 2010 1:39 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

I forgot Gasol,

I just had visions of Kwame Brown turning the ball over and blowing bunnies

by QUINTEN DALEY on Feb 1, 2010 1:42 PM CST up reply actions  

You think a guy 7'1", 265 lbs.

with a TS% of 0.641 and a PER of 20.7 averaging 15.3/9.8/2.3/1.1//1.6 per 36 is worth something? ; )

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gasolma01.html

We miss you, Ben Gordon!

by Granny Waiters on Feb 1, 2010 1:45 PM CST up reply actions  

not to the Bulls. What do they need that for?

OTOH, can we imagine for a second, a front-court of Noah, Gasol, Gibson and Asik?

Holy shit. I’d be trying to trade Thomas + Hinrich for a Top-10 pick + plus a bad contract this Summer, and then try to get Evan Turner somehow.

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Feb 1, 2010 2:13 PM CST up reply actions  

If they could do that I would love it

Evan Turner is going to be a very good player.

Joakim on whether he ever tried tennis: "I played a little bit. If anybody on the Bulls wanted to play me, I would kick their ass."

by bigballa10 on Feb 1, 2010 2:31 PM CST up reply actions  

Rec'd

For being so true. Gasol would be great here (Marc) and of course Pau too.

Sadly....through thick and thin....

by majoyenrac on Feb 1, 2010 4:03 PM CST up reply actions  

Gasol is good, but...

One thing nobody it noting is that the Griz just acquired Gasol’s draft rights. They didn’t immediately get him on the court and playing.

Having the rights to an unknown quality is delayed and uncertain gratification, and the Bulls live by the immediate gratification of playoff revenues. So he’s not nothing, but I think the something he is was probably off their radar in this instance.

by Sports2 on Feb 1, 2010 7:36 PM CST up reply actions  

He's 7 foot 1 and related to one of the better bigs already starring in the NBA...

That’s hardly off the radar IMO.

How can we have the worst offense in the league when everything about our team owner and coach is offensive?

by Khalid El-Amin on Feb 1, 2010 10:23 PM CST up reply actions  

The scouting report on Marc

was that he was a fat bastard. That’s what they thought would keep him out of the NBA. He’s only shed weight over the last 36 months.

12/31/08: Fire Vinny Del Negro.(upd: 1/7/10)

by NBA Observer on Feb 2, 2010 8:29 AM CST up reply actions  

"He's only shed weight over the last 36 months".

Well, he’s only been in the NBA for 15 or so months.

I’ll just assume you are talking crazy again and we can leave it at that.

How can we have the worst offense in the league when everything about our team owner and coach is offensive?

by Khalid El-Amin on Feb 2, 2010 10:10 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

I understand that, but he wasn't immediate help

I didn’t explain my point very well. Gordon, even though the plan was to let him was immediate help for the Bulls.

Suppose they had traded him at the deadline last year for the rights to Marc Gasol, who would only have started playing this year (I know he was playing for the Griz last year, just as a thought experiment). It would be a good trade for the Bulls in the sense that they’d get a very useful player back for Gordon, who they planned to let go for nothing.

However, in doing so, they would have lost the remaining half a season of having Ben Gordon, and I think that would have knocked them out of the playoffs.

So it was a matter of them foregoing a future benefit to get the immediate benefit of the playoff revenues brought by having Gordon. Even though they didn’t plan to keep him, and even though Gasol is a better long-run return than the nothing they got.

by Sports2 on Feb 2, 2010 9:18 AM CST up reply actions  

And, unknown to me

Marc Gasol had lived in Memphis and worked out with the Griz before they made that trade. They knew who he was and he knew who they were. They had a reasonably good idea of what they were getting with Marc Gasol, even if no one else knew.

by Basketball Smurf on Feb 1, 2010 10:32 PM CST up reply actions  

You could have watched Spain

and seen his skills.

12/31/08: Fire Vinny Del Negro.(upd: 1/7/10)

by NBA Observer on Feb 2, 2010 8:29 AM CST up reply actions  

Wasn't Nocioni the Spanish league MVP

I mean Noc was good for a while for us, but he wasn’t ever close to Pau Gasol good. Marc was I believe the spanish MVP, but was still 30 lbs overweight and they really didn’t think because of that that it would translate to the NBA, plus he wasn’t viewed nearly as skilled as Pau (he’s still probably not as skilled, but the gap is a lot closer than what all the analysts were saying at the time)….

Sadly....through thick and thin....

by majoyenrac on Feb 2, 2010 9:25 AM CST up reply actions  

Yeah Noc won it right before he came over to the Bulls

and Marc Gasol won it in 2008.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACB_Most_Valuable_Player_Award

Joakim on whether he ever tried tennis: "I played a little bit. If anybody on the Bulls wanted to play me, I would kick their ass."

by bigballa10 on Feb 2, 2010 11:25 AM CST up reply actions  

What about the Hawks?

Team Gordon tried to engineer a S&T with the Hawks.

Frankly, I’d love to have Gordon right now with the Celtics shopping Ray Allen. ZOMG planning!

12/31/08: Fire Vinny Del Negro.(upd: 1/7/10)

by NBA Observer on Feb 1, 2010 2:04 PM CST up reply actions  

Actually Memphis did get Marc Gasol in that deal

He’s playing pretty well the last I checked.

Joakim on whether he ever tried tennis: "I played a little bit. If anybody on the Bulls wanted to play me, I would kick their ass."

by bigballa10 on Feb 1, 2010 2:30 PM CST up reply actions  

Oops

I didn’t see all the replies about this already.

Joakim on whether he ever tried tennis: "I played a little bit. If anybody on the Bulls wanted to play me, I would kick their ass."

by bigballa10 on Feb 1, 2010 2:32 PM CST up reply actions  

wasnt BG heavily shopped the season before he accepted the 1 year deal

and teams kept wanting him bundled with Deng?

don't let the bed bugs bite

by Rex Grossman on Feb 1, 2010 11:59 PM CST up reply actions  

It's not unfair

Pax has ridden this ship for what 6+ years now, he failed miserably in the first wave of talent
(not pulling the triggers when guys like Deng and HInrich with pretty easy to see ceilings on them to the heavy watchers/followers) weren’t traded on the high they were, and watched that team crumble….

Then publically bumbled with JR some high profile coaching searches, made a less than stellar pick of THomas or Aldridge over Roy (which could have helped us considerably, though I know that’s easier in hindsight),
But ultimatelyt he refusal to trade assets like Deng, Hinrich and Gordon when they were at their peak, and watching them turn to good but not great players not quite worth their contracts is a huge failure.

If we didn’t win th elottery by a 1.9% chance, Pax would have had the axe 2 years ago.

I think all the complaints on the front office are more than justified. Hell there should be more.

They have a chance to save themselves this offseason….and if they fail, then they should be let go.

I think the criticisms on Del Negro have been a bit unfair (Save for teh string of 30 pt losses this year that was ridiculous, thankfully the ship’s been righted) but all the constant VDN stuff is a bit much, he’s doing well with a less than stellar hand…and the guys keep coming back to play after dealing with tons of adversity…..

But if anything the pressure should be on the front office more than ever to succeed…..

Sadly....through thick and thin....

by majoyenrac on Feb 1, 2010 12:28 PM CST up reply actions  

not pulling the triggers when guys like Deng and HInrich with pretty easy to see ceilings on them to the heavy watchers/followers) weren’t traded on the high they were, and watched that team crumble….

ummm who saw these cielings? When did they see them? in 2007? When the bulls as whole were playing horrid ball? When boylan was coach? Everyone at the time considered 2007 a huge arbitration. In 2008 deng hinrich were injured….by that time paxson had already stepped down from gm and for all we know gar pax was steering this ship. Paxson did fail in his rebuilding, but it wasnt realized until 2007-2008…by which time he had somewhat cleaned up his mess and handed the keys over to gar.

On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!

by piccolomair on Feb 1, 2010 1:10 PM CST up reply actions  

I saw them

Come on, I’m a HInrich fan, but did you really think Kirk was going to be Nash? No, never close to being as clever of a passer….and without Nash’s passing ability, he’d be average in the league. Sure Hinrich’s a solid defender, but he’s not nearly the O player Nash was (which was that comparison)…..I guess the Bulls knew this with the relatively “low” at the time contract…..which was seen as a bargain back when we got it, but still he was the starting PG for the 2006 World CHampionships team, ahead of CP3 and Deron Williams….I know that the Bulls must have known he wasn’t going to keep that lofty thing going.

And Deng is one I never got. He’s good, he’s been good, he’s not nearly as athletic as folks thought, he never could be close to the Lebron and Melo guys (2 guys roughly his same age if not his same age) and so we knew at the worst he’d be a clear #3, and with other talented SF’s (Pierce, etc ahead of him) and the very likelihood that other talents behind him, he wasn’t likely to ever be top 5….yet oddly he had this rep of a top 3 SF 3 years ago. That clearly was the time to pull the trade trigger. I mean you could see, a nice defender, a nice spot up shooter, a high bball guy, but also one who really wasn’t improving so dramatically that it was stunning, and frankly in his what 6 years in the league you can count on your hand the games Luol’s really looked Lebron esque for 1 single night (inasmuch as anyone looks Lebronesque). Mostly he’s just a really good to have consistent 17-6 to 19-7 kind of guy with solid but not incredible defense…..that’s good to have, but when folks and teams were talking superstar, you trade that guy in the hope of drafting a 25-5 to 27-7 guy….

Sadly....through thick and thin....

by majoyenrac on Feb 1, 2010 4:10 PM CST up reply actions  

Nash vs. Hinrich

Kurt is one of the most side-to-side players PGs around. The Hinrich Maneuver would be the classic example of this, but generally speaking, he plays on the edges. A lot.

Nash, on the other hand, is special because he aims for the paint every time he gets the ball and hauls ass. Either he stops and shoots, drives and scores, or passes, but he’s in non-stop motion to the basket until something happens. Granted, that makes him almost unique in the NBA, but it’s something the rest of the league, Kirk included, should learn from.

by Sports2 on Feb 1, 2010 7:45 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

They should

But Nash also is a far better shooter than Kirk ever was, and a far better passer, to go with the fact that he knows to be most effective he has to attack the rim and use his freakish abilities on either side to pressure the other team’s D.

Hinrich could be better by attackign the rim more, but never really had a chance to be the next Steve Nash. Still Kirk was nad still is fairly good, but his rep was HUGE there for a while internally and externally and Pax and co had to know the limits with him, and yet hung onto him too long to hurt his value…..

Sadly....through thick and thin....

by majoyenrac on Feb 2, 2010 9:28 AM CST up reply actions  

Heh, it occurred to me while reading your post

That every time VDN stands there screaming “Attack!! Attack!! Attack!!” he’s probably pictuing Steve Nash in his head. I wonder if Bulls practice ever consists of watching video of Suns games featuring Nash.

by Sports2 on Feb 2, 2010 3:40 PM CST up reply actions  

I wish it did

Cuz Rose seems to have some of them raw passing raw skills….course it’ll be hard to say he’s got Nash type of passing, but the way of late he’s been driving into the lane to then throw an incredible pass out to the perimeter that I don’t even see until it’s done from the tv screens (and obviously Neil doesn’t see)…is crazy…

Sadly....through thick and thin....

by majoyenrac on Feb 3, 2010 12:55 PM CST up reply actions  

Antoine Walker was guarding him

That’s not always that hard to do. Deng was put back in place against Tayshawn Prince immediately afterwards, which should have had the bells going for the Bulls brass, trade on the high…..he was never a superstar/franchise guy and for that summer had the alleged rep of being more than he ever could be….

He’s still very good and now one of the more underrated players in the entire league—because he’s totally not viewed by much outside of CHicago given the 2 yrs of injury and the buzz on Noah and of course Derrick….but Deng was seen across the NBA as something far more than he was….that was the time to trade him. I mean Chicago knew what they had when they offered him a 5 yr $50M deal that summer….why they wouldn’t try to work out a trade for the chance at more?

Sadly....through thick and thin....

by majoyenrac on Feb 2, 2010 9:30 AM CST up reply actions  

Deng put some big

double-doubles on the Pistons that series

by QUINTEN DALEY on Feb 2, 2010 10:29 AM CST up reply actions  

Price outplayed him

And Price, while good was never top 5 SF.

Sadly....through thick and thin....

by majoyenrac on Feb 2, 2010 12:09 PM CST up reply actions  

And Deng was... 21 years old?

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Feb 2, 2010 1:36 PM CST up reply actions  

still, seeing him posted up by Prince

scars the memory to this day

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 2, 2010 1:59 PM CST up reply actions  

And

Not super athletic….never was never could be.

Good, but obviously the Bulls knew what they had when they low balled him a bit at 5 yr 50M….

Why then didn’t they trade him? As his league value was much higher.

Now his value pretty much equals his contract…which is good and all, but we could have gotten more than he was worth for him for a good few years.

Sadly....through thick and thin....

by majoyenrac on Feb 2, 2010 2:01 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm not saying all the criticism is unfair

Go ahead and criticize the basketball moves all you want. But criticize them for what they DO. Don’t criticize them for what they SAY.

by Poloplaya14 on Feb 2, 2010 1:49 AM CST up reply actions  

Fine

I am criticizing them for not doing enough….they’ve had many years and without Rose we’d be in the Pacers type boat still, except unlike Indiana we didn’t ahve a championship contender a short while ago that was Artested ans SJAX’d out of contention causing what they are today…..we did this ourselves (or our GM’s did by not playing the GM game well).

Thank God for Rose…..our future can look bright again. Pax did a decent job drafting good players….but to win in the leauge you need to draft some franchise talents…..and well, we never did, and yet had a lot of young guys with gobs of talent on the roster who weren’t ever in that next realm talk, and kept them to save the nickels despite the fact that our huge deficiencies—size in the backcourt and inside scoring presence has been here the entire Pax tenure….

If not for Rose we’d be winning 25 games max this year.

Sadly....through thick and thin....

by majoyenrac on Feb 2, 2010 9:36 AM CST up reply actions  

Those are all valid points

But none of them had anything to do with my comment.

by Poloplaya14 on Feb 2, 2010 10:54 AM CST up reply actions  

Well

I was responding to your comment inasmuch as it was a response to mine.

Sadly....through thick and thin....

by majoyenrac on Feb 2, 2010 12:10 PM CST up reply actions  

"as I've said before: while a playoff appearance is a nice perk going into free agency, you have to have the cap room to even get in the game."

I think this works both ways.

Of all the guys mentioned in conversation about the Bulls’ upcoming offseason (Bosh, Wade, Joe Johnson, Amare, Boozer), they’re all on winning teams. With the exception of Bosh and Wade they also have all-stars on their current rosters.

As much as I hate to say it, I have an easier time believing that Reinsdork will empty out his pockets to add a star to a playoff team than believing that a good player is going to leave in free agency for a team worse than the one they’re already on. I’m sure all of the guys mentioned will also get offers from winning teams, so it seems to me that being on a losing team (especially in the Eastern Conference) would kill our chances.

by darksmokepuncher on Jan 31, 2010 6:26 PM CST reply actions  

yes. I think puncher missed the point.

They could just hope Salmons opts out.

Though he still could opt in, and then they’ll be ’pantsed. Remember when Paxson actually said his cap space plan was thrown off by the lottery win? That was great.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 31, 2010 10:03 PM CST up reply actions  

Pax

is a turd….When ever he speaks out…it always comes out sounding crazy..should just not speak at all

by rick_ross on Jan 31, 2010 10:49 PM CST up reply actions  

I'll admit to not paying much attention to the rules of salary in the NBA

That being said, I also understand that the salary cap is not a hard cap. My assertion about Reinsdorf “emptying his pockets” pertained to paying the luxury tax to get a star player on the team.

Forgive me if I’m missing something, but it looks to me like even if we managed to dump Hinrich for an expiring, we’d only be ~12 million under the cap, which means we’d have to go over the cap to get a good free agent, and even further over the cap to get a shooting guard. I don’t see how we can avoid paying the luxury tax while being a good team next year.

by darksmokepuncher on Feb 1, 2010 8:48 AM CST up reply actions  

I assumed our free agent would be a post player

Obviously we could go after a shooting guard to begin with, but I’m clearly biased against our power forward position. If the organization is ok with Taj starting in the long run, I guess we could manage to stay only a a few million over the cap…. but then we need to sign somebody to take Taj’s place after he fouls out during warmups

by darksmokepuncher on Feb 1, 2010 8:52 AM CST up reply actions  

I was missing something: Tim Thomas isn't here anymore

So if we managed to get rid of Hinrich, we’d be about 18 million under the cap? Can someone who knows what they’re doing verify/discredit this?

by darksmokepuncher on Feb 1, 2010 9:02 AM CST up reply actions  

Review the list of fanposts

The details are all sketched already.

12/31/08: Fire Vinny Del Negro.(upd: 1/7/10)

by NBA Observer on Feb 1, 2010 10:06 AM CST up reply actions  

this is a good primer

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/2010/01/potential-2010-bulls-salaries.html

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 1, 2010 10:48 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Interesting breakdown

thanks for the link.

The Dude Abides

by Savage23 on Feb 1, 2010 5:56 PM CST up reply actions  

I misspoke about Paxson and the Rose lottery

it didn’t throw off the cap space plan, it was the lux tax plan.

You’re correct that 2010 has nothing to do with the luxury tax, by being this far under the cap they’re in no danger of getting into tax territory this offseason. It will become a looming issue when Noah is a restricted free agent the next season, however.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 1, 2010 10:47 AM CST up reply actions  

Holding Pattern

I think it’s pretty impossible to say what the Bulls are thinking at this point because there’s likely so much posturing before the trade deadline. I think what the Bulls want to do is really dependent on a whole lot of contingencies.

I think ideally the Bulls would like to trade for Bosh while keeping enough cap space open to make a run at Wade or Bosh.

A backup option would be something like that Amare for Tyrus + Kirk deal mentioned here. But they like Bosh a lot better than they like Amare, so they aren’t going to pull the trigger on that without knowing they can’t get Bosh.

And of course, neither the Suns nor the Raptors are gonna pull the trigger until they’re sure they want to trade and the Bulls have the best offer on the table. Which explains why everyone is sitting on their hands until closer to the deadline.

From that point, if the Bulls really want to get a guy like that and still have cap space, they need to have a second deal in place to offload someone for expirings. They probably need that sort of deal in any case, since the reality is that if Salmons doesn’t opt out, they’ll be totally hosed and have no space at all.

I’d put the odds of everything falling into place the way they want/need to be pretty small. But I’d also put the odds of moving past the deadline with no trade at all as pretty small too. Of course, I can build the narrative we’ll here (Need Kirk and Salmons for the playoffs, can always unload one early in free agency if Salmons chooses to opt in). It’s not even totally implausible. Just far from a sure thing.

by Sports2 on Jan 31, 2010 7:37 PM CST reply actions  

I don't see any way Bosh is traded at the deadline

the Raps are fighting for playoff revenue too, are actually ahead of the Bulls, and they’re very likely to do a sign/trade in the offseason if Bosh says he’s bailing.

You’re right that they could move money on the first day of free agency, but that isn’t how that period usually works, everyone likes to keep their space and hope for the big fish first, not spend it on Kirk Hinrich on day one.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 31, 2010 10:05 PM CST up reply actions  

People keep mentioning the sign/trade scenario with Bosh

but isn’t he leaving because he wants to play for a better team? If it was about the money, he’d stay with Toronto where he gets 6 years and larger raises. A sign/trade gives him that as well, of course, but another team is going to have to give up prime assets, thus gutting the roster in the process. Why would Bosh want to be a part of that?

Thrusting toward the playoffs, one game at a time.

by Illini15 on Jan 31, 2010 11:17 PM CST up reply actions  

As long as Noah and Rose aren't involved...

Why they need to get rid of Hinrich and/or Salmons and/or hope the latter opts out. Then they can use Deng in a sign-and-trade.*

*forget whether the Raptors would do it

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Feb 1, 2010 7:49 AM CST up reply actions  

well there's still Derrick Rose

who’d be the best player Bosh has a chance of playing with in Toronto. But he could easily go to (or force his way) to Miami with a similar partnership w/Wade.

The issue of the Bulls not improving too much is if they have to include Noah in that S/T. I’d hope maybe taking on a bad contract, James Johnson, Hinrich? a sign/trade Tyrus?

Yeah, you bring up a good point :)

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 1, 2010 10:50 AM CST up reply actions  

Agreed on the last point. I'm just picturing how they might spin it.

Truth be told, if they spin things that way and it costs then the “privilege” of paying the max to Joe Johnson, it’s not even that bad of a play. Evil, but not bad.

by Sports2 on Feb 1, 2010 8:16 AM CST up reply actions  

Well my thoughts.. if they turned down certain trades( Hinrich to Celtics)

because they know something big could happen and those minor trades can be revisited later I have no problem with that. I like that this win streak is effecting the value of the players. I assume their value is going up and that can’t be bad right? So I’m kinda in a holding pattern right now.

However if the bulls strikeout on both fronts on Feb 18th I will be pretty disappointed knowing they passed on trading Hinrich.

Also if the Hinrich trade was to take on salary back then I don’t blame them for balking.. so like i said I’m taking the wait and see approach before i judge them.

It’s believed they have some kinda bigger deal in the works but are waiting closer to the deadline. If i understand it correctly. that may be bogus. We’ll see. Cheers!

by SoulEater7 on Jan 31, 2010 8:02 PM CST reply actions  

I included my thoughts on this in the Hinrich thread, but I'll post them here, too as it is the more current and therefore, relevant

thread on the subject:

The more and more I think about it, the more convinced I am that the Bulls literally have no long-term plan.
They just have the following goals: 1. don’t pay luxury tax and 2. make the playoffs and gather that revenue. That’s it. Those are their goals and in that order.

Last year, if they had a plan for the future, they wouldn’t have made the deal for Salmons because they would have realized that they could resign Gordon with Gooden’s expiring money and still have been pretty well positioned. Instead they sacrificed a better player for the long term by dealing bad players for upgrades that amounted to year and a half long rentals, but ultimately cost the Bulls Ben Gordon.

This year they are foregoing opportunities to make a real run at 2010 by being short-sighted and looking only to meet their yearly goal of making the playoffs, getting in on that revenue, and then staying under the luxury tax. If they don’t make a deal by the deadline to move either Salmons or Hinrich, I will be convinced that they truly have no long term plan for the future, because they will be relying entirely on the hope that Salmons opts out, which is not a plan at all.

It’s candy. I don’t eat poop-flavored candy. I’m not going to watch poop-level basketball.
--tyger1147

by fundamentallysound on Jan 31, 2010 10:24 PM CST reply actions  

I don't believe that

Paxson won titles with the Bulls. While I can see him looking up to Reinsdorf for teaching him the business side of things, his priority is to bring another title to Chicago. Reinsdorf, I think, makes profits his priority, but I think it’s unfair to say he has no goal of winning a title.

Paxson’s job is tough. He has to build a Final Four team while staying under the tax. He took over the team in the 2003-2004 season, and by 2006-2007, he basically did that, which was why Reinsdorf ok’d the extensions to Hinrich and Noc after the season. With Deng’s and Gordon’s extensions a year away, that would’ve theoretically forced Reinsdorf into the tax if we won 50+ games as expected.

I’m confident we’ll clear cap space this offseason. It just doesn’t make financial sense for the Bulls to pull the trigger any earlier than the deadline. Rack up the wins now, give ourselves a playoff cushion, then sell off a piece.

by YaoPau on Jan 31, 2010 10:51 PM CST up reply actions  

Wait, at what point were the Bulls ever a Final Four team? You must reading from an alternate book of history

where the Bulls made the ECF in 2006-07, instead of getting pasted in the second round like what really happened.

It’s candy. I don’t eat poop-flavored candy. I’m not going to watch poop-level basketball.
--tyger1147

by fundamentallysound on Feb 1, 2010 12:02 AM CST up reply actions  

"if we won 50+ games as expected."

As for Reinsdorf, my evidence that he cares about winning is that he’s human and a sports fan. There’s a pretty harsh difference between “guy who’s top priority is turning a profit” and the conclusion you’ve jumped to.

by YaoPau on Feb 1, 2010 12:36 AM CST up reply actions  

The only conclusion I've jumped to is that they have just two priorities year to year

those are 1. staying under the luxury tax and 2. getting playoff revenue. The first is the easiest to control, so it’s the top priority for the risk-averse ‘Dorf. The second is something they work towards every year, but they have no real plan to get anywhere beyond the first round. That’s my contention.

It’s candy. I don’t eat poop-flavored candy. I’m not going to watch poop-level basketball.
--tyger1147

by fundamentallysound on Feb 1, 2010 10:02 AM CST up reply actions  

We also have loads of evidence that Reinsdorf doesn't care for or even really like basketball that much

relative to how much he likes money and being able to spend that money on his true passion, baseball.

I just don’t think he cares about the Bulls. They are a business investment to him.

It’s candy. I don’t eat poop-flavored candy. I’m not going to watch poop-level basketball.
--tyger1147

by fundamentallysound on Feb 1, 2010 10:03 AM CST up reply actions  

I do think 'dorf cares about winning, but maybe not winning titles

He likely thinks that just having a fun, young, competitive team that tries really hard is satisfaction enough. And I think for a lot of Bulls fans, it is.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 1, 2010 10:53 AM CST up reply actions  

Dunno, but I think he understand the importance of championships

Those titles earned him money and keep the organization going even all those years after MJ (we’re still among the most profitable). However I don’t think he has the sense of urgency fans have.
Plus, now there those rumors about a real change of scenario after the next CBA. He may be waiting to just drag the boat until then.

by JustAnotherFan on Feb 1, 2010 11:29 AM CST up reply actions  

Two other things: 1. Paxson is not in charge. 2. Reinsdorf doesn't care about winning. We have no evidence that he ever

did. The only reason they won during the dynasty years is that Jordan was the greatest ever and they drafted the perfect complement to him in Scottie.

It’s candy. I don’t eat poop-flavored candy. I’m not going to watch poop-level basketball.
--tyger1147

by fundamentallysound on Feb 1, 2010 12:05 AM CST up reply actions  

Oh, whatever. :-P

It’s candy. I don’t eat poop-flavored candy. I’m not going to watch poop-level basketball.
--tyger1147

by fundamentallysound on Feb 1, 2010 8:22 AM CST up reply actions  

i do believe that trade was prearranged

Bulls wanted Scottie but didn’t feel they could get him at thier spot, so found a willing partner to trade with. in essence, the Sonics and Bulls picked Scottie and Polynice at each other’s behest and then swapped them.

we went out for pizza after the game. -dave wannstedt

by BULLieving in Miami on Feb 1, 2010 4:59 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

Yeah

This sort of trade happens from time to time, but it always surprises me. One of the interesting things about it is one team gets royally screwed. In X of the Y cases, it’s the higher pick that ends up better

  • Pippen for Polynice
  • Jamal Crawford for Chris Mihm
  • Aldridge for Tyrus
  • Roy for Foye
  • Tractor Traylor for Dirk (this is one where the lower pick was better)
  • Jamison for Vince Carter (this is a little more of a toss up I guess)

by Sports2 on Feb 1, 2010 7:58 PM CST up reply actions  

Don't forget Oakley for Keith Lee

That Crumbs was a real slick dealer when it came to swaps.

Joakim on whether he ever tried tennis: "I played a little bit. If anybody on the Bulls wanted to play me, I would kick their ass."

by bigballa10 on Feb 1, 2010 9:26 PM CST up reply actions  

Yikes

It sort of amazes me that this happens. Like, if some team called me up, as a GM, and said “I’m dying to have this guy, let’s agree to a pre-arranged swap that’ll save you fifteen cents”, I ought to consider it evidence I should take the guy they want for myself.

by Sports2 on Feb 2, 2010 9:21 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Lol

that’s a good point. Especially if it was Krause calling.

Joakim on whether he ever tried tennis: "I played a little bit. If anybody on the Bulls wanted to play me, I would kick their ass."

by bigballa10 on Feb 2, 2010 11:33 AM CST up reply actions  

Nah,

I always just assume that GM’s are too egotistical to think that another GM could know something they don’t.

God, this site has turned me into such a cynical bastard lately.

How can we have the worst offense in the league when everything about our team owner and coach is offensive?

by Khalid El-Amin on Feb 2, 2010 12:23 PM CST up reply actions  

The otehr amazing Scottie thing

Was how cheap we signed him for….I mean the most he made in Chicago was $3.4M in 1992-1993….that was one helluva signing…

I mean in 11 years in Chicago he earned $21.5M combined in salary….that for being a top 5 NBA player for at least 3 of them and a top 20 player for probably 8 of them….

That’s the best value perhaps in league history.

Sadly....through thick and thin....

by majoyenrac on Feb 2, 2010 9:39 AM CST up reply actions  

Yeah but Scottie wanted to sign that long term deal because...

people were skeptical his back would hold up (if I remember correctly). It was viewed as a risk for management somewhat… Until it became clear it wouldn’t be an issue… Then they kind of screwed the pooch and didn’t give Scottie a little bigger piece of the pie… But that’s business, and NOBODY beats the Bulls at business!

How can we have the worst offense in the league when everything about our team owner and coach is offensive?

by Khalid El-Amin on Feb 2, 2010 10:18 AM CST up reply actions  

I was a little young and didn't know that

But was shocked when I saw the bill. You are right, nobody screws the Bulls in business (not named Ben Wallace, Larry Hughes and most especially Tim Thomas that is).

Sadly....through thick and thin....

by majoyenrac on Feb 2, 2010 10:20 AM CST up reply actions  

The Bulls rewarded Scottie when they signed and traded him to Houston

In those 5 years he almost made 80 Million

and Reinsdorf got Houston and Portland to pay for it!

"What are you doing Dragic?!"

by Trey23 on Feb 2, 2010 1:22 PM CST up reply actions  

In all fairness

Larry and Tim Thomas aren’t separate screwings. They’re offshoots of the Ben Wallace one.

Vinny: "[Thrust] means pace, it means getting the ball out, it means getting your back to the sidelines, it means extending your outlets, it means getting the ball up the court into our early offense with plenty of time."

by runningman on Feb 2, 2010 3:51 PM CST up reply actions  

Tim Thomas

Screwed us over twice by being paid to not play by us for significant monies….especially the first time when he had something….

Sadly....through thick and thin....

by majoyenrac on Feb 3, 2010 12:56 PM CST up reply actions  

Paxson's job is even tougher because I still think 'dorf goes over his head plenty

And his job is so tough that he quit (I know I keep bringing that up, but it still sounds so crazy when it’s actually said).

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 1, 2010 10:52 AM CST up reply actions  

no question

I’d stay on and continue to start to mail it in

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 1, 2010 2:05 PM CST up reply actions  

Re Gordon and Salmons

They made the decision on Gordon in the prior summer when he tried to accept an offer that would have paid him less per season than Kurt.

I see no sensible reason to do that. But once they did it, then our desire for them to re-sign Gordon was pretty much fantasy. For one, there’s no reason, after getting treated like that, that Gordon should give us the time of day or expect the Bulls to even consider matching a reasonable offer from another team. Second, if the Bulls weren’t going to pay the man at a lesser price the previous summer, they weren’t going to lose face and pay him more now.

by Sports2 on Feb 1, 2010 8:29 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

I think you're right

If there is anything to learn from Reinsdorf it’s that he really is pretty savvy when it comes to the long view on financial matters. Would he commit himself now to long term contracts that are a focal point among owners in the upcoming CBA negotiations?

He’s got chips to play, but he’s not sure how the overall game is going to adjust with a new CBA.

12/31/08: Fire Vinny Del Negro.(upd: 1/7/10)

by NBA Observer on Feb 1, 2010 8:46 AM CST up reply actions  

yeah that's a big issue, I wonder if that's why Noah won't get an extension now either

plus, ‘dorf is one of the hard-liners amongst the owners, right? He can’t go into the tax and then complain to the rest of the owners that they need tougher penalties on spending.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 1, 2010 10:54 AM CST up reply actions  

Well, he was one of the hardliners in 1994-95, crying poor the entire time and wanting to break MLBPA

and then went out and signed Albert Belle to a record contract a year later. So, he does have precedence on his side even if it was for his “passion” and not for the cash cow.

We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan

by snley on Feb 1, 2010 1:56 PM CST up reply actions  

Different sport...

Different mentality.

Unfortunately.

How can we have the worst offense in the league when everything about our team owner and coach is offensive?

by Khalid El-Amin on Feb 1, 2010 1:59 PM CST up reply actions  

I hope the game u go to

is an instant classic and the Bulls win. That way all your posts are cheery, happy..with smiley faces and the whole 9 yards

True Story: John Salmons sucks so bad, Tiger Woods wants to meet him

by Belize on Jan 31, 2010 11:40 PM CST reply actions  

actually I've had a good in-person record this year

I believe only two losses, and one of those was the Brad Miller shot against the Nuggets, which felt like a win.

This is a classic trap game on Tuesday though.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 1, 2010 10:55 AM CST up reply actions  

Every game is a win because of that "I love Chicago" video montage they play after halftime.

Makes me warm and fuzzy inside.

Taj Gibson is the face of Bulls basketball!
by Trey23 on Jan 5, 2010 6:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

by Ozzie Montana on Feb 1, 2010 11:24 AM CST up reply actions  

wait

Does it really say “I love Chicago” and not “I love the Chicago Bulls”?

12/31/08: Fire Vinny Del Negro.(upd: 1/7/10)

by NBA Observer on Feb 1, 2010 12:00 PM CST up reply actions  

it's the Bulls and White Sox :)

I agree with Ozzie that the video gives off the warm and fuzzies. Though the halftime “I love this town” montage kindof ruins it.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 1, 2010 12:23 PM CST up reply actions  

On the 5 game winning streak

In the last 50 years, teams have gone a road trip 5 games or longer, an estimated 3,000 times. (That’s the high end, 60 trips a year for 50 years)

Of those road trips, how many had 5 winning teams in a row? That’s an answer I’d like to know. Maybe in the 100’s? And this is the first time a team won 5. An amazing statistic.

"What are you doing Dragic?!"

by Trey23 on Feb 1, 2010 12:57 PM CST reply actions  

Actually I don't know that it would be so likely to have 5 winning teams in a row

Many teams have had 5 road wins in a row including the championship Bulls in 96 and the 72 Lakers. It’s just that they didn’t have road games against teams with winning records five times in a row. It’s probably not as likely as you think.

Joakim on whether he ever tried tennis: "I played a little bit. If anybody on the Bulls wanted to play me, I would kick their ass."

by bigballa10 on Feb 1, 2010 2:47 PM CST up reply actions  

im sort of surprised

the bulls that won 72 never did this?

On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!

by piccolomair on Feb 1, 2010 3:09 PM CST up reply actions  

They didn't play against teams with winning records 5 times in a row

during those road trips. For example, during the circus trip that year, they played the Mavs, Spurs, Jazz, Sonics, Blazers, Grizzlies and Clippers. Only the Spurs, Jazz, Sonics and Blazers were winning teams and they lost the Sonics game. Even this time, that schedule seemed pretty brutal when looking ahead. Usually there would be a bad team or two sprinkled in between. This team we had the losing teams first (Warriors and Clippers) and the winners all in a row.

Joakim on whether he ever tried tennis: "I played a little bit. If anybody on the Bulls wanted to play me, I would kick their ass."

by bigballa10 on Feb 1, 2010 3:27 PM CST up reply actions  

oh i see

so this isnt so much the bull had great strength this road trip, many teams in the past could have done this, it just so happened that they were never “fated” to face the right teams 5 consecutive times…..so in other words, the bulls did this mainly by luck….yey?!

On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!

by piccolomair on Feb 1, 2010 3:29 PM CST up reply actions  

Well they did go out and win the games

but yeah it’s more of a scheduling thing than some great historical feat. That’s not to take anything away from the accomplishment. It doesn’t seem like something that a lot of teams would even have the opportunity to do.

Joakim on whether he ever tried tennis: "I played a little bit. If anybody on the Bulls wanted to play me, I would kick their ass."

by bigballa10 on Feb 1, 2010 3:52 PM CST up reply actions  

Nice job

even coming up with a rough estimate.

Vinny: "[Thrust] means pace, it means getting the ball out, it means getting your back to the sidelines, it means extending your outlets, it means getting the ball up the court into our early offense with plenty of time."

by runningman on Feb 2, 2010 3:53 PM CST up reply actions  

Combining Celts/Rockets trade ideas and focusing on 2010

Thoughts on this trade ?

This dumps all bad Bulls salary, optimizes for 2010 and positions the Bulls to not collapse and make a reasonable push this year. For the rest of the season, our depth chart looks like:
Rose/Lowry/Pargo/Hunter
Allen/Brown/McGrady
McGrady/James Johnson
Gibson/Noah
Noah/Miller

In the off season, Bulls then look to fill SG/SF/PF positions with tons of cash (Joe Johnson/Gay/Bosh, FTW!!).

Your 2011 Bulls:
Rose/Lowry/Filler
Joe Johnson/Allen
Gay/Gibson/Filler
Bosh/Gibson/Filler
Noah/Asik/Miller

by paxson43 on Feb 1, 2010 5:26 PM CST reply actions  

Just listened to Bill Simmons smoking crack and saying LeBron and Bosh could go to Chicago.

So (like in Dumb and Dumber), GET RID OF KURT’S CONTRACT
…because there’s a “chance.”

/I can imagine that trading away Aaron Gray for a guard/forward was just a precursor to another move

by KentuckyBullsFan on Feb 1, 2010 8:25 PM CST reply actions  

yup

http://www.blogabull.com/2010/1/30/1284238/in-the-back-of-your-mind

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 1, 2010 11:44 PM CST up reply actions  

Maybe not smoking crack

While I know it’s a pipe dream, if Lebron’s goal is to win Championships, Chicago is the best opportunity for him. He gets to be the face of a major market. Gets paired along a real All-Star PG (sorry but Mo Williams as an All-Star is a joke), a solid NBA starter in Deng, and a blossoming young Center who knows his role is rebounding and blocking shots. There is no other major market that can do that for him,

As for Bosh, why not? I don’t know his personality but if it’s winning a championship, Chicago would be a great destination and I’m sure Lebron would have some pull.

Ultimatey it depends on what happens with the Cavs. If they bomb out in the 2nd round for instance, I think Lebron has to realize he can’t win one on his own and needs to surround himself with stars unless he wants to become a player who never wins a Championship.

by Niwrad on Feb 2, 2010 3:45 AM CST up reply actions  

If that happens, which you are right, It can't happen

How do you then pay Drose and Noah to keep on the team? Maybe trade Bosh after 2-3 years?
To sign Rose and Noah. But yeah, its fun to plan ahead!

"What are you doing Dragic?!"

by Trey23 on Feb 2, 2010 1:26 PM CST up reply actions  

Much better problem to have

Then the ones we have now. If only we were so lucky to have too many all stars on the team.

by Grinder in Training on Feb 2, 2010 1:42 PM CST up reply actions  

Cleveland is Lebron's best chance at a Championship.

They have a much better team, are in the luxury tax and willing to stay there, have a team built around Lebron, and plenty of tradeable assets if they want to get better.

Lebron is in effect the point guard. Rose won’t be dominating the ball with Lebron on the team. Lebron will, and Rose will have to do more spotting up, which is exactly why Mo Williams is a better fit than Rose. A more pure point guard will do nothing to help Lebron.

Vinny: "[Thrust] means pace, it means getting the ball out, it means getting your back to the sidelines, it means extending your outlets, it means getting the ball up the court into our early offense with plenty of time."

by runningman on Feb 2, 2010 3:58 PM CST up reply actions  

The reality is Bulls shouldn't need to clear space

While I understand dumping a bad contract for the cap space, they shouldn’t have to. The Bulls were the most profitable franchise in basketball last year making $50 million in profits. It trumps most teams (40% lost money) and with attendance #1 in the league again, it’ll remain high again.

The Bulls have an exceptionally loyal set of fans that helped Reinsdorf and company make millions when they weren’t winning 20 games a season post-Jordan. There is absolutely no reason why they shouldn’t pony up for a major free agent even if it puts them in the dreaded luxury tax category. Going $10 million over won’t kill his profits (although it will cut into it) and it would be a shame to miss on a superstar.

What I’m saying is that Reinsdorf and the Bulls made a lot of money when they shouldn’t have. And passing up on a superstar to save a few bucks on an already massively profitable franchise would be the ultimate slaps in the face to Bulls fans.

by Niwrad on Feb 2, 2010 3:40 AM CST reply actions  

its not about the luxury tax (sigh)

It’s the hard cap. The Bulls even if they want to cannot offer a max contract to Lebron unless they are under that amount. If there was no such thing, we should keep everyone and just sign 3 max contracts this summer….

by diedaily23 on Feb 2, 2010 8:02 AM CST up reply actions  

By rule the Bulls can't do that..

There is a luxury tax and hard cap. The hard cap is what matters here, otherwise Mark Cuban would just go out and sign everyone of these guys for insane amounts. Or that Russian version of Mark Cuban in New Jersey.
The Bulls have to get rid of salaries at all costs. If they get a worthwhile player back in a deal, it’s a bonus, but they aren’t winning a championship this year so it really doesn’t matter. It’d only be a slap in the face of Bulls fans if they don’t trade away these guys.

by Grinder in Training on Feb 2, 2010 12:28 PM CST up reply actions  

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