Bulls since 12/17
23 games into the season, the Bulls stood at 8-15, and had a per game point differential of -13.5 from games 11 to 23. Then we beat the Knicks, and we've gone 14-7 since.
Here are the Per36 numbers of our key cogs before and after that game (one note: I used game logs from cbs sports, and I just noticed they haven't added last night's game yet, so these numbers don't include that game. Shouldn't change the stats much though). The first line is before, the second line is after:
Rose
16.8 pts, 3.1 reb, 5.7 ast, 0.9 stl, 0.3 blk, 3.0 to, .484 TS%, 14.3 PER
22.3 pts, 4.3 reb, 6.0 ast, 0.7 stl, 0.4 blk, 2.6 to, .534 TS%, 21.0 PER
Hinrich
10.3 pts, 3.2 reb, 5.1 ast, 1.2 stl, 0.5 blk, 2.9 to, .412 TS%, 6.9 PER
12.6 pts, 4.1 reb, 5.3 ast, 1.1 stl, 0.2 blk, 1.5 to, .527 TS%, 13.3 PER
Salmons
13.0 pts, 3.6 reb, 2.4 ast, 1.7 stl, 0.7 blk, 1.5 to, .477 TS%, 11.5 PER
14.7 pts, 3.9 reb, 2.6 ast, 1.0 stl, 0.2 blk, 1.4 to, .595 TS%, 14.4 PER
Deng
16.6 pts, 7.2 reb, 1.7 ast, 1.1 stl, 0.8 blk, 1.6 to, .519 TS%, 16.8 PER
16.4 pts, 6.5 reb, 2.3 ast, 0.6 stl, 1.2 blk, 2.0 to, .528 TS%, 15.6 PER
Taj
12.1 pts, 9.0 reb, 0.9 ast, 1.0 stl, 1.6 blk, 2.1 to, .503 TS%, 12.4 PER
12.3 pts, 10.0 rb, 0.9 ast, 0.8 stl, 1.4 blk, 1.6 to, .522 TS%, 14.2 PER
Tyrus
10.9 pts, 7.6 reb, 1.1 ast, 0.0 stl, 4.4 blk, 0.0 to, .460 TS%, 15.2 PER (played just two games)
12.4 pts, 9.7 reb, 1.9 ast, 2.1 stl, 2.9 blk, 3.0 to, .486 TS%, 15.7 PER
Noah
10.8 pts, 12.9 reb, 2.7 ast, 0.8 stl, 2.0 blk, 2.1 to, .518 TS%, 17.1 PER
14.3 pts, 13.6 reb, 2.0 ast, 0.7 stl, 1.7 blk, 2.4 to, .591 TS%, 19.3 PER
Miller
12.7 pts, 7.6 reb, 3.6 ast, 0.7 stl, 0.5 blk, 2.1 to, .519 TS%, 12.6 PER
12.1 pts, 6.7 reb, 2.3 ast, 0.9 stl, 1.0 blk, 1.6 to, .526 TS%, 12.2 PER
One other thing I haven't seen mentioned: Rose's Per36 assists by location, before and after the Knicks game.
5.7 total; 1.4 at rim, 0.2 within 10ft, 3.1 for 2pt jumpers, 0.9 for 3's <- Before
6.0 total; 2.2 at rim, 0.4 within 10ft, 1.8 for 2pt jumpers, 1.6 for 3's <- After
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wow, so it really is all Rose. :)
I need to thank Steve ‘Stan’ Schanwald again. Besides forking over ticket money.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 28, 2010 10:06 AM CST reply actions
And apparently Kirk.
His per doubled!Trade him now!!! ???
General manager needs the ability to foretell what is going to happen tomorrow,next week, next month, and next year. And to have the ability afterwards to explain why it didn't happen.
Sir Paxdorf.
by Azabullsfan on Jan 28, 2010 10:11 AM CST up reply actions
no, it proves he's now untradeable
-Sam Smith
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 28, 2010 10:21 AM CST up reply actions 4 recs
I've been suckered!
I’m surprised by the fact that while the stats show how Kirk has turned things around from his dreadful start, he’s still playing not that well in an absolute sense. Even by his own standards, he’s below his career PER of 14.5.
I still would hope we can get something better than a pack of guys with girls names and a crybaby.
He's right at where he's been the last two years
Hinrich past two years: 13.4 PER, .514 TS%
Hinrich since 12/17: 13.3 PER, .527 TS%
Considering his defense, he’s playing like an NBA starter.
Can you create a Sam Smith joke account and give out the password?
;)
12/31/08: Fire Vinny Del Negro.(upd: 1/7/10)
by NBA Observer on Jan 28, 2010 4:13 PM CST up reply actions
Interesting way to look at it
When I was writing it up, my thought was that this would show everyone had chipped into the improvement. But you might be right, it could just be Rose (and Hinrich) taking on more of the load, as everyone else’s PER increase seems to have come from a TS% jump. Hmm.
as the saying goes
Rose doesn’t make others better, but he can make them open.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 28, 2010 10:47 AM CST up reply actions
exactly
We can see that without the numbers
Although good work YaoPau
Everyones TS% is better. If you make just 2 extra 3’s a game that’s 6 points! (I’m Tim McCarver)
It a huge improvement resulting in winning 2/3 of the games.
"What are you doing Dragic?!"
how else would you make someone better?
i never understood that phrase.
by Basketball Smurf on Jan 28, 2010 1:30 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
yes. i always hoped someone (bill simmons maybe) would be asked to explain how that works.
"Oooohhh, cat in the wall, eh? Now you're talkin' my language."
I'm sure it's somewhere in the 700 page book
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 29, 2010 10:48 AM CST up reply actions
The secret, apparently, is to be a former Celtic or Magic Johnson
No one else need apply
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
hall of famer michael jordan!
he made his supporting cast better!
"Let's do some living... after we die"
For one, by getting them passes in a perfect spot when they aren't really open.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
I think the phrase is looking at intention.
Making requires intent, so you can cause your teammates to be better without making them.
I saw T2 at Walgreens in Deerfield he’s tall. if you’re wondering what his grocery list included: magnums, french vanilla ice cream and a 20 oz sprite
by Super-Structure on Jan 29, 2010 3:21 PM CST up reply actions
Well not only those 2,
But Tyrus has been contributing since his return just after Christmas. Do you realize the Bulls would have a 10-game win streak were it not for the GSW, LAC losses while dealing with illnesses (and bad shooting). That’s three 4-game win streaks over the last 5 weeks since Ty has been back. We all know how rare a 3-game win streak is for this team the past few years.
No way Rose’s dramatic improvement isn’t the #1 reason for the recent success, but this just goes to show how this team needs everybody at least available for a game.
I’m not going to turn this into a Tyrus debate, but I think his presence has been much more positive for the team in comparison to the perceived headaches his attitude would cause after coming back and not starting.
It’s also funny how ppl are saying Kirk’s ballin’ out of his mind and his PER is only @ 13 in his recent uptick. Also funny (sad) how he started off the season. Ship him out.
by kingj41 on Jan 28, 2010 11:29 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Thank You!
I don’t want to make it a Tyrus debate either but I do find if funny how people in the media have no issue criticizing Tyrus while ignoring the fact that this team is like 11-5 since Tyrus got back. I think their overall record is over .500 with Tyrus in the lineup. This all while coming off the bench and getting fewer minutes. It’s just like the Celtics series where his jumpers help win the first game but then he’s sent to the bench because of other issues. I think they win that series if he played more.
He’s made a ton of mistakes and still plays like he has no idea where to be on the court sometimes. But the fact that he can be that misguided and still have a positive effect on a team tells me that he’s a rare talent and that some other team may eventually figure him out.
You don't want to turn this into a Tyrus debate... or you DO want to turn this into a Tyrus debate?...
“But the fact that he (Tyrus) can be that misguided and still have a positive effect on a team tells me that he’s a rare talent…”
I may sig this one…
Nothing I said isn't true
We can debate it. I’m not saying his great. I’m saying that he’s an impact player that can effect a game even though he still has shortcomings as a player. That is rare and he does have talent
Absolutely
Even with all that his PER is still above average. I hope one day he can put it all together. Too bad it won’t be with the Bulls.
Joakim on whether he ever tried tennis: "I played a little bit. If anybody on the Bulls wanted to play me, I would kick their ass."
The only thing I will critizie TT
Is on offense cause he plays like a bull with his head cut off , But his D is good
I'd agree it's all Rose and Kirk playing better...
If you look at Hollinger’s “Reference Guide”…Rose’s PER at the beginning of the year was that of a “Pretty Good Player”…Hinrich’s PER was worse than a player “Scrounging for Minutes”! Rose’s PER is now that of a borderline All-star and Hinrich is on the scale of a “Pretty Good Player”…while other’s contributed, Rose and Hinrich playing better has opened the holes for others on the squad…
I figured Noah
Deng and Rose were playing well, but with Kurt, Fish and Miller nowhere to be found, this team was never gonna get off the ground. I’ve been frustrated that Tyrus, the fourth best PER player this team has was not getting more minutes over the rookie.
I knew that the “little three” probably wouldn’t play to their best PER years but barring injuries, these guys are good fillers around our “middle three”
it looks from these stat breakdowns like Rose and Noah are becoming more then “middling”
I really do think Kirk has made a big difference.
Salmons was killing our offensive flow as a starter. And Kirk’s defense has been pretty remarkable this year. Especially on the current road trip. He’s already achieved an adjusted +/- of > 4 on the defensive end this year while playing in just 2/3rds of the games.
Yes, he’s overpaid. But our team is plainly better as a result of his (better) play. Sort of like a miniature Battier, I suppose. Kirk’s effect on games doesn’t always show up in the box score.
Somewhat comical though that his PER is still south of 15 since his recent surge of better play.
it better not show up on the box score
because he shot 2-13 last night.
I completely agree that he’s a better starter than Salmons. Hopefully the addition of Brown can cut down on the guy’s minutes, though. The fact that he starts AND is the backup PG has him playing a ton. Not that Brown is a PG either, but still…
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 28, 2010 11:40 AM CST up reply actions
His defense has been excellent
That and his passing have really been a big boost.
Joakim on whether he ever tried tennis: "I played a little bit. If anybody on the Bulls wanted to play me, I would kick their ass."
Interesting how Taj has been consistent
Except for turnovers going down, which I guess is him learning a bit more and maybe due to better ball movement lately (Kirt has helped with that while starting, I think, observation-wise). Seems like he is playing a few less minutes lately, maybe due to the plantar foot issue and Tyrus coming in (and fould trouble).
It is hard to sometimes appreciate Taj, but he has been consistent (as a Rook) and you know what he gives, and know what to expect (which is better than what many veterans have given this year, and the numbers support the fluctuation). Kirt, Salmons, Miller, etc should be more predictable, one would think.
Taj & Luol seem to remain stable without Rose and Kirk improving their games?
All your base are belong to Vinny.
Does anyone realize that....
The Bulls are 20-9 with Tyrus Thomas in the lineup this year. Think about that. I think Rose’s improvement the main reason this team has improvement along with better shooting by Kirk, Salmons, and Deng. But I think having a shot blocking presence off the bench has been the most underrated factor in why this team has played better.
I believe Tyrus first game back was the Hornets game right after the 35 point debacle against the Kings and the loss against the Knicks. Tyrus has been key since those embarrassing losses. Having an extra body that supplies energy and that is a deterrent in the paint is a major reason why this team is playing well. So in a game like yesterday where he plays only 19 mins and has 5 turnovers, remember that he blocked 2 shots and supplied 13 pts along with 5 boards. He’s been as valuable to the team’s success as anyone else, even Rose.
as valuable to the team's recent success as ROSE?
not even in the same ballpark.
Yes AS valuable
It’s completely possible that Rose could be having the same success he’s having now and this team could have lost 3 in a row or more. The reason this team was playing so bad was on defense. Rose has 24pts and 7 assist against the Kings when they came back from 35 pts down. So yes AS valuable.
That block on Maynor was a nice game changer
Tyrus was the only Bull that thought he could make a difference on that play and he did. You can never give up on plays.
I think our defense is vastly improved since Tyrus returned. We are challenging almost every shot.
12/31/08: Fire Vinny Del Negro.(upd: 1/7/10)
by NBA Observer on Jan 28, 2010 4:51 PM CST up reply actions
remember that stretch (maybe the first road trip) when it seemed like every center the bulls played against killed noah?
it really helps to have tyrus’ help D swatting away opposing centers post moves, and he does it all the time.
"Oooohhh, cat in the wall, eh? Now you're talkin' my language."
I hate to sit out a non-debate or is it? when it involves Tyrus, so I can't resist adding my 2 cents worth.
Dils, TheMoon and NBA observer have all noted what many Thomas bashers seem to be unable to acknowledge or grasp. When he’s on the court, the opposition has to be aware of his presence at all times because of his freakish athleticism. It’s too bad Vinny never trusts him to be in at the finish of any games or let’s him start occasionally, as K C Johnson suggested…Tyrus responds more positively with a cookie than a time out.
For someone who is raked over the coals so frequently by some Babr’s I find it interesting that since 12/17 his PER ranks only behind our two acknowledged stars, Rose and Noah.
There must be some mistake.
I know the Bulls have a .667 winning % (14-7) in games he’s played and a .348 losing % in games he’s missed (8-15), but those are only numbers and don’t prove a thing, so instead of listening to my biased observations, I’ll let Noah make our case when he said after last night’s game….
"The turning point of the game definitely was Tyrus’ block. I think that if we can get energy like that out of Tyrus it elevates our team to a whole different level. I think this was probably our best team effort as a group. Tyrus’ play on the block. There’s no one who can make plays like that on our team. The way he ran down was unbelievable. Tyrus brings something we don’t have. He has abilities nobody on this team has. If we have everyone playing with that focus and energy we’re a tough team to beat."
Maybe if we can somehow imprint his comments with a microchip and implant them in Vinny’s brain, now that the win streak has alleviated some of his fear of getting a pink slip, he will learn to trust Tyrus more which will pay off in rich dividends when rewarding him with more minutes. As many of us know, when he feels appreciated his energy level and performance rises accordingly while his mistakes decrease.
Rose has been sensational lately and I attribute much of his turnaround to having Kurt’s steady presence on the floor with him to relieve the pressure by both helping direct the offense but primarily by him usually guarding the opponents biggest offensive threat. Yes, Taj has been solid and is intelligent enough not to force things outside of his talent level. Noah brings his Florida enthusiasm and is a monster on the boards, while a rejuvinated Brad is having fun out there, hitting big shots, providing spacing and delivering fouls with his unique Miller exclamation point
GO BULLS…the best is yet to come….as long as VDN doesn’t panic.
.
If you can't answer a man's arguments, all is not lost. You can still call him vile names.
Elbert Hubbard
by Tyrusmancrush on Jan 28, 2010 11:02 PM CST up reply actions
I'm too lazy to read your post
but I like to see TT on the court too
by JustAnotherFan on Jan 29, 2010 8:49 AM CST up reply actions
good to see noah getting his efficiency back.
"Oooohhh, cat in the wall, eh? Now you're talkin' my language."
getting back?
He’s just climbing! he never played like he’s playing this year
by JustAnotherFan on Jan 29, 2010 8:53 AM CST up reply actions
Great post
but why did you use PER36? It’s fools gold, especially for trends for the starters. Hinrich averages almost 32 minutes per game, so unless he has 4 brilliant minutes of the Chosen Iowan in him, his stats are a little blemished in per36.
Was working on something similar myself and have a question about how you calculated the PER
Did you just use the team’s and league’s season pace factors or did you actually calculate pace for each time period?
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
I used regressions
Took Per36 numbers, pace, and PER from each player on four or five NBA teams, then used a linear regression to find the coefficients. It’s not exact PER, but it correlated at .998, so it predicted everyone’s PER within .2 except LeBron’s who was within .3. If I had the formula I’d give it to you but I didn’t save the excel.
If I had the formula I’d give it to you but I didn’t save the excel.
Doesn’t that kind of suck?
Taj Gibson is the face of Bulls basketball!
by Trey23 on Jan 5, 2010 6:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 29, 2010 1:51 PM CST up reply actions
Looking at Rose's numbers since 12/17, they look very, very similar to Allen Iverson's second year in the league.
Iverson had a 20.4 PER, scored 22 ppg on 53.5 TS%, and shot about 46% from the field and sub 30% from 3. Derrick turns the ball over less, but still gets the line less than AI did, but there are a lot of similarities between new and improved Derrick and young AI. Luckily, Derrick is blessed with more physicality than AI, so sky’s really the limit.
It’s candy. I don’t eat poop-flavored candy. I’m not going to watch poop-level basketball.
--tyger1147
by fundamentallysound on Feb 2, 2010 10:17 AM CST reply actions
Lets hope
he doesnt turn out like AI lol …never wining a championship …playing for a few different teams ..
Let's hope he doesn't end up like a guy who's a sure-fire Hall of Famer? Interesting.
It’s candy. I don’t eat poop-flavored candy. I’m not going to watch poop-level basketball.
--tyger1147
by fundamentallysound on Feb 2, 2010 5:03 PM CST up reply actions
Iverson has a weird rep in the league
people acknowledge that he is a great player, sometimes begrudingly, but no one ever wants a player like him on their team. I think people need to separate the attitude from the game. He was quite effective when he didn’t let his selfish mentality get in the way.
by Basketball Smurf on Feb 3, 2010 10:29 PM CST up reply actions
i pointed this out during a game thread earlier, and not only do the stats correlate but derricks role
now is like the one AI had pretty much his whole career. i still think rose will be a more efficient scorer though because he’ll improve at getting to the line and he’ll be a much better shooter than iverson ever was. i could definitely see derrick shooting between 50-53% from the field for the entirety of him prime.
"Oooohhh, cat in the wall, eh? Now you're talkin' my language."
with the implication that he'll make a passable % of them?
"Oooohhh, cat in the wall, eh? Now you're talkin' my language."
I think the main problem with Iverson
is that he never could accept an offense that wasn’t completely centered around him until he was forced into Denver. And even than, he acted as if he and Carmelo were equals. If Iverson would have accepted playing the point guard, i think teams could have thrived with him. But he wanted to be a shooting guard, he wanted to shoot 25 times a game, and he didn’t want to play in any system.
I think Rose will keep improving his overall game, whereas Iverson eventually leveled off and became ineffective, when he couldn’t be the #1 guy.
by Basketball Smurf on Feb 3, 2010 10:27 PM CST up reply actions
which again says to me that Rose has limitless potential. he's bigger and stronger and just as fast as AI
and he has the right mentality. takes over when needed, but prefers to get teammates involved. I can’t wait to see Rose with real teammates.
It’s candy. I don’t eat poop-flavored candy. I’m not going to watch poop-level basketball.
--tyger1147
by fundamentallysound on Feb 4, 2010 12:38 PM CST up reply actions
After Rose goes to the Lakers as a free agent.
I can’t wait to see Rose with real teammates.
We miss you, Ben Gordon!
by Granny Waiters on Feb 6, 2010 7:50 AM CST up reply actions

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