Plays for Vinny to Consider - Part 1 - The High-Post PnR, "45"

by fundamentallysound on Sep 3, 2009 2:57 AM CDT

As most of us remember, this past year Vinny Del Coacho's offensive repertoire was, well, less than diverse. So, in the spirit of helping Vinny develop an offense that's suited to his player's skills, I'm going to start suggesting plays that I'd like to see out of next year's Bulls. Today's play is designed for Tyrus. Also, hat tip for this post goes to http://www.coachesclipboard.net, as they provided the plays that I'm using. I'm providing the graphics (theirs are copyrighted and I think you'll enjoy mine, anyway) and the analysis of why each play makes sense for the Bulls and their personnel.

The first play comes out of the 1-4 stack set in which the 1 guard (our man, Derrick) begins at the top of the key with the ball and his 4 comrades forming what amounts to a wall between him and the basket. Why build a wall between Derrick and the basket for the defense? Because the wall isn't what it seems. There will be some quick motion that should lead to any easy bucket (the best kind) for Tyrus (who needs them as much as anyone).

So without further ado, here's the play:

The end result should look something like this:

So there you have it. That's the play. Pretty simple, right? Well, I hope to do more of these posts, complete with big head graphics. Feel free to suggest other plays for me to diagram in this manner and that you'd like to see the Bulls run next year.

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I like the play

and the post. There are a number of potential options with the high screen and roll with TT and Rose. If the defense is guarding against the cut, then Rose may get a lane and if they double Rose then Kurt will be open for the 3.

The problem with these types of plays is they require basketball IQ on the part of TT. I’m confident Rose can handle it, but I’m not so sure on Tyrus. He needs to improve his knowledge of when to cut, when to drop back for the open jumper etc. I think he can do it with some coaching, but I don’t have much faith in the coach.

by 72-10 on Sep 3, 2009 9:03 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs

Rec'd for this line

“I think he can do it with some coaching, but I don’t have much faith in the coach.”

"I've missed more than 9,000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. Twenty six times, I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed."- Michael Jordan

by bigballa10 on Sep 3, 2009 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions

Great post

As soon as we drafted Derrick this was the type of play I envisioned us running about 8-10 times a game. Unfortunately, our coach doesn’t really do anything (no defensive philosophy other than “switch on screens!” and no plays for the offense).

To your point 72-10, I think Tyrus has the IQ to handle this (his role in the play is pretty simple — the decision-making is on Rose’s shoulders), he would just need to practice it. There’s no reason why they shouldn’t be running this play 25-30 times everyday in practice.

Of course, who knows what our team does in practice?

by Rose Colored Goggles on Sep 3, 2009 9:44 AM CDT reply actions

Practice?

Allen Iverson doesn’t need to practice – all the Bulls don’t need to practice!

I support the Tornado Release [See: Joakim Noah]

by Prevenge on Sep 3, 2009 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions

well...

Rose needs to decide what to do on the passing end, sure. But movement off the ball matters too… knowing when to cut, when to fall back when to set a screen etc. A good team that has played together a ton should be able to do this without even needing to talk on the floor.

The play he drew up is sound, and many teams use it! I think it could work here.

by 72-10 on Sep 3, 2009 3:10 PM CDT up reply actions

Hi low screen and roll, baby!

With a team this long and athletic how can you not run that play for Tyrus or Joakim? Practically made Ty Chandler an all star in N.O.

by Carlitro on Sep 3, 2009 9:49 AM CDT reply actions

I'd like to see old Cap'n Kurt...

set a John Stockton elbow pick from the high block on an opposing big, like when Johnny Dimes and The Mailman were running the pick and roll and losing to yours truly…

by Carlitro on Sep 3, 2009 9:52 AM CDT reply actions

Someone call Vinny!

by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Sep 3, 2009 10:05 AM CDT reply actions

To be fair, Derrick didn't really show an aptitude for throwing lobs in the half-court.

It’s not exactly the easiest thing to do, hopefully this is something he works with a lot with Joakim and Tyrus, heck even Deng can sky for lobs.

The 2009 White Sox....like a 40 degree day.

by Ozzie Montana on Sep 3, 2009 10:18 AM CDT reply actions

I love coaches clipboard

Anybody else think it’s interesting that this stuff was designed for youth and high school coaches yet it still might be over Vinny’s head? Maybe we can get the girl he has doing the drills to help Deng with his ball handling too lol.

by bigballa10 on Sep 3, 2009 10:37 AM CDT reply actions

But wouldn't this play require us to have plays?

Severe oversight, that.

I support the Tornado Release [See: Joakim Noah]

by Prevenge on Sep 3, 2009 11:39 AM CDT reply actions

A question and a "rec"

Makes good sense. If we run this and it works wouldn’t Noah’s man drop off Noah and double team TT? That leaves Noah wide open for a 10-12 foot shot which is a problem.

by chgobr on Sep 3, 2009 12:06 PM CDT reply actions

You missed the part about Noah going to the low block.

People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett

by tyger1147 on Sep 3, 2009 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions

This is correct, Noah's man would (hopefully) be sealed by Noah and / or focused enough on him

that the quick lob to Tyrus would be open for long enough to execute it.

1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box

by fundamentallysound on Sep 3, 2009 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions

Thanks!

by chgobr on Sep 3, 2009 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions

i have been calling for a Tyrus and Rose

pick and roll set since mid season last year, sadly Vinny never drew one up for them. He actually was more comfortable doing it with Noah and it made no sense to me. Tyrus has better hands, he’s quicker, he has a better passing touch, and he is a better scorer. This play would work as Tyrus is quicker than most power forwards and the athleticism of Rose and Tyrus would give defenders fits. I agree wholeheartedly with this one, and good job with the post.

by Mr Rhythm on Sep 3, 2009 12:06 PM CDT reply actions

I agree that set should be for Tyrus and Rose

but disagree that Tyrus has better hands and is a better passer than Noah. I think their hands are about equal and I actually think Noah is the slightly better passer.

Play should stay as is though.

by Rose Colored Goggles on Sep 3, 2009 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions

The great thing about this play is that you could easily flip the roles around and it still works well.

I think Noah is a bit better at establishing position down low and catching and finishing quickly than Tyrus (who has to do at as an alley oop, usually, if he’s going to do it at all). So if instead of looking for the lob, you wanted to the pass receiver to seal his man and catch and dunk, Noah could easily play that role. I also think Noah sets marginally better screens than Tyrus, mostly because he actually tries to set good screens more often than Tyrus.

1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box

by fundamentallysound on Sep 3, 2009 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions

That's a good point

by bigballa10 on Sep 3, 2009 8:06 PM CDT up reply actions

And Miller sets the best screens

out of the three… of course he can’t jump 2 inches anymore!

by 72-10 on Sep 4, 2009 8:53 AM CDT up reply actions

I should note here in the comments, that much of this play hinges on Tyrus

setting a proper pick on Noah’s man so that when Tyrus’s man switches onto Noah that Tyrus has the X5 man sealed enough to create a passing lane. Or he could just use his quickness and leaping to outjump Noah’s man at the rim. Either or, really.

1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box

by fundamentallysound on Sep 3, 2009 1:04 PM CDT reply actions

I'm telling you guys right now

If D. Rose and Tyrus Thomas run a pick and roll consistantly these guys will have success with it, and I’ll even add Tyrus might be close to averaging 20 a game. Tyrus has nice touch around the basket especially when he’s in the flow of the offense. If he’s thrown on the perimeter and the ball swings to him with 5 seconds on the shot clock he’s gotta improvise. This Pick and Roll is exactly what he needs, give them some time to get accumulated with the play, to learn where they’re effective at and this will be money in the bank.

by Mr Rhythm on Sep 3, 2009 2:47 PM CDT reply actions

In addition to more PnRs for Tyrus, I'd like to see him allowed to roam the baseline more for

quick cuts to the rim off of penetration. An example of what I’m talking about can be seen here at 28 or 29 seconds in. Deng dribbles into the center of the lane drawing Tyrus’s defender and Tyrus has only to take one step and jump for an easy alley oop dunk.

1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box

by fundamentallysound on Sep 3, 2009 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions

I should also note that until Tyrus gets more committed to actually setting solid screens, all these

dreams of PnR for him are probably for naught.

1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box

by fundamentallysound on Sep 3, 2009 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions

here's another video with the kind of baseline roaming I like seeing out of Tyrus

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3bmz5_tyrus-thomas-the-best-dunks-and-blo

fast forward to about 33 seconds in for another dribble drive set up by Deng collapsing the defense and giving Tyrus an open run to the rim along the baseline. Alley oop and two points for the good guys.

1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box

by fundamentallysound on Sep 3, 2009 3:25 PM CDT up reply actions

Tyrus is Nasty!!!

Alot of those plays were off the pick and roll. Tyrus can shoot the little hook with either hand, pull up and hit the mid range jumper and finish strong. Now the question should be, who thinks Vinny will put Tyrus in the play which will bring the best out of Tyrus?

by Mr Rhythm on Sep 3, 2009 6:26 PM CDT up reply actions

Tyrus is capable of running the pick and roll properly, he just fails to do it much of the time.

And it’s primarily because he doesn’t set good picks.

1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box

by fundamentallysound on Sep 3, 2009 6:56 PM CDT up reply actions

...mid range jumper?

questionable

"One good thing about being wrong is the joy it brings to others"

by PORCH1 on Sep 4, 2009 7:11 PM CDT up reply actions

Tyrus has a nice touch

and can obviously dunk but his footwork is very rough still and usually way too fast. So a dive to the rim is fine, but for anything beyond that, such as getting the ball on the block/back to basket or in a close-in face up, he needs to keep things very simple and have a simple move and a simple counter move. did I say simple, and oh yeah, in control?

can he learn this? in the context of a play like this one, where he can develop some consistency, he probably can….

by RichKarp on Sep 3, 2009 9:00 PM CDT up reply actions

I'm confused

It’s probably something really simple that I’m missing, but how is Tyrus open? Isn’t he just covered by Noah’s man?

Things could be worse. We could have kept Boylan.

by stupidgenius on Sep 3, 2009 8:33 PM CDT reply actions

It's a lob to the basket and the spacing doesn't look as good as it should because I used

the headshots that were a little bit too big to properly represent the spacing. If you go here, http://www.coachesclipboard.net/14Stack.html, and scroll down, they have the play without the Bulls faces, but with a better idea of the spacing.

1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box

by fundamentallysound on Sep 3, 2009 9:12 PM CDT up reply actions

Thanks for clearing that up

Things could be worse. We could have kept Boylan.

by stupidgenius on Sep 5, 2009 12:59 AM CDT up reply actions

BTW

I’d love to see more plays that we think fit the talents of the team. Since it is the off season, there isn’t much else to talk about! But also, I think it should provide a good measuring stick for the players and coaches as the season progresses.

As much as we mostly dislike VDN, I think we should give the guy a break to start the season. If he can get a few plays like this integrated into the offense, we could see some development. If not, well, then it’s gonna be a long winter.

by 72-10 on Sep 4, 2009 9:00 AM CDT reply actions

yer

yes i agree with this, we need to utilise the talent in the team and try and become a force inside the paint. I think TT needs to play more like a big man around the rim. Although if he mastered his mid range jumper, he would become a hard player to defend but i just cant see it hapening. See what happens this year, maybe Vinny will pull his finger out of his ass

"One good thing about being wrong is the joy it brings to others"

by PORCH1 on Sep 4, 2009 7:15 PM CDT reply actions

Nice post, now we just need to get Vinny to read it

This remind me of a picture that was taken during the playoffs with Vinny drawing up a play on his clipboard, but nobody seems to be listening to him, only Tyrus looking at the clipboard with his head tilted. Bah, I can’t find the pic.

Are we there yet?

by Teri on Sep 5, 2009 1:35 AM CDT reply actions

Question

Can Tyrus and Deng be swapped in this scenario?

I’d like to see Deng get Noah’s man switched on to him to let Deng go to work. It puts a smaller man on Noah where he can back that man down to force more help. This should open passing lanes to a cutting Derek, Tyrus on the wing, or out to Kurt/Salmons on the perimeter.

12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.

by NBA Observer on Sep 6, 2009 12:15 PM CDT reply actions

Anything is possiiiiiiiible!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dk7Il3EqI0

1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box

by fundamentallysound on Sep 6, 2009 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions

I remember talk back....

…when the Bulls first picked up Jay Williams and everybody body was saying twin towers high low pick and roll with Curry and Chandler, shoot, I think I can get some amens if I say that Noah and Tyrus are pound for pound better than those two…You can run a high low PnR with either of them…

by Carlitro on Sep 9, 2009 4:14 PM CDT reply actions

Yeah,

because Curry’s like twice the size of Tyrus and Noah combined.
So pound for pound they’re gonna be better!

I support the Tornado Release [See: Joakim Noah]

by Prevenge on Sep 13, 2009 2:10 AM CDT up reply actions

Tyrus does need to work on his footwork…that’s one part of his game people rarely mention. His feet are too fast, his body control is lacking too. I don’t know how you can work on that stuff. Maybe send him to work with Hakeem…

by C Smoove on Sep 10, 2009 1:27 PM CDT reply actions

I don't know either

It seems like he’s always trying to do everything too fast. He needs to slow down a bit and stop being in such a hurry when he gets the ball. If he had any kind of go to move, he might not be in such a rush.

by bigballa10 on Sep 10, 2009 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions

slowing his feet down is totally a mental thing. he just needs to be conscious of it and

slow himself down. there’s no real way to work on that beyond having someone scold him every time his feet are too fast by yelling “Tyrus, slow those feet down!” If only our coach had a brain.

1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box