Bulls training camp starts with defense talk, injury reports
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Sep 27, 2009 8:56 PM CDT
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The Bulls certainly have an organizational message going into training camp, and it's improving the defense. Coach VDN is preaching it in practice, and Mike McGraw at the Herald called it the 'overall goal of the team' this season.
It's a nice way (and I mean it) to spin the Ben Gordon departure. I always thought Gordon's defensive deficiencies were overblown, but there's no doubt that replacing all of his minutes with Hinrich, Salmons, and Deng is an upgrade on that end (as is a full season of Brad Miller over Nocioni/Gooden), and at 18th in defensive efficiency last season there's plenty of room for improvement. There's a chance they're actually better offensively this season too, but I think making the defense above-average is a more attainable goal, with Improvement from Noah (not being pushed around) and Tyrus (not being out of position entirely) being the best way to make it happen.
And here's Bulls GM Gar Foreman (didn't hear from Pax, he's away from the scary media now since his promotion) with his big-picture take on this team, this year:
Speaking Friday at the Berto Center, Forman made sure to downplay next summer's free agent chase, when the Bulls will have the salary-cap room to pursue Dwyane Wade, Chris Bosh, Carlos Boozer or others.
"That's not our focus. We like this team," Forman said. "Our focus is on this team and we're looking forward to a good season ahead. It's our opinion we have the talent to compete."
Compete for what exactly was left unsaid. No one is calling the Bulls a championship contender, but if things go well this season, a top four playoff seed in the Eastern Conference might be within reach.
Alright, so I emphasized that line from McGraw as a testament to his awesomeness (I was thinking the exact same words in response to that quote...), and he does answer his own question by saying the #4 seed is what the Bulls can 'compete' for. That's my ultimate benchmark for this team as well, and if it does happen the individual successes will likely have been a part of it, either for the guys who will be there next season, or at least providing some clarity in evaluating the guys who won't.
As far as what Foreman actually said, I don't buy they're not ultimately thinking the 2010 offseason game. (and I don't buy anything Gar says after this past offseason. Not that it's necessary to tell me the truth to do his job well...) But that game does start now, and it involves keeping the team's perception up, and getting their player values high. Saying 'compete' is vague enough to encapsulate that.
And in the spirit of opening-of-training-camp-runaway-optimism, I do think they can have a very successful (as in, 4th seed. Not real success) season. It's because they have a very solid rotation that keeps Vinny's job easy. However, if one of Rose-Hinrich-Salmons-Deng-Thomas-Noah-Miller gets hurt, coaching adjustments have to be made, and unproductive players need to come in. So while it's not a concern yet, the biggest story of this training camp is getting Luol Deng back healthy, and keeping everyone else good as well.
So it's not the best start that Hinrich is already missing a practice. Staying healthy seems a bigger part of this season than in other years, as the dropoff from the top 7 is too large, the coach likely won't handle adversity well, and the (self-imposed) budget is already maxed out.
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how nice would it be if wade were standing on the other side of rose in that picture
i dont buy this not aiming for 2010 crap either. if we go by the way gordon was dealt with maybe gar will do exactly the opposite of what he says in the media. meaning he wont stand pat with this team as is and maybe he’ll actually pull a trade or two in the season. that would be nice
i'd just like to add to your top 7 part
and say that james johnson is a wild card there; no one really knows what to expect from him, but he’s already 22 so hopefully there won’t be much of a learning curve for him and he can come in and be a productive 15-20 minute a night 8th man.
http://ExtendtheGame.blogspot.com
JJ is rookie
I don’t expect much. At 22, JJ’s body is more developed than a typicall18-19 yr PF rookie BUT he played only two years at Wake Forest, not four.
I hope he still has a steep learning curve.
If the choice were for him to come this year and be productive with out much potential, or to suck this year, with higher potential down the line, I want the latter. Role players are a dime a dozen.
Of course, the best would be that comes in and plays well this year and STILL has great potential.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
Denver talked about defense last season....
Bulls talking a whole lot of defense this season
The Nuggets exchanged Iverson for Billups
The Bulls exchanged Gordon for Deng
Denver went all the way to the Western Conference Finals
What will happen to the Bulls this year?
D ROSE D WADE DESTINY DYNASTY
by Juan dela Cruz on Sep 27, 2009 10:21 PM CDT reply actions
they will not make the Western Conference Finals
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Sep 27, 2009 11:28 PM CDT up reply actions 10 recs
oh my...
D ROSE D WADE DESTINY DYNASTY
by Juan dela Cruz on Sep 28, 2009 12:50 AM CDT up reply actions
I think they'll still be kinda sucky on defense.
Denver was ranked 18th in points allowed at 100.9 the Bulls are were ranked 21st at 102.5 in points allowed. Cleveland was 1st at 91.4 and Orlando was 6th at 94.4. The 90’s Bulls always made it their goal to keep teams around 90 points allowed. Thats what a good defense does.
The Bulls played very little defense last season. Their personal still isn’t made up of very good defensive players. Noah and Hinrich might be the most talented defensive players. But Rose Deng, Salmons, Miller, I’ll even throw in Tyrus are average to below average.
Honestly the Bulls said they wanna run more and if thats the case they have given up on the defensive mind set. They will try to out score you. Both Denver and Chicago were in the top ten in scoring.
But you don’t have to have a top ten defensive team seeing as the Lakers were 3rd in scoring and 13th in defense. You have to have a balance I think and of course a few Stars to get calls.
I guess we will see. But I think they’ll be close to where they were last season. Maybe their scoring goes down with out BG bail out 3’s? i just don’t see Vinny making this team any better defensively. I hope I’m wrong or do I??? Fire Vinny!
Honestly I think it starts with Rose, he has to make the effort to get better on defense and stop the opposing teams point guard from breaking down the Bulls defense. He can’t just stand on the 3 point arch and wait for them to bring the ball up. He needs to turn the point guards back so he can’t run his offensive sets with ease. (ala Scottie on Magic 91 Finals)
Derreck Rose, you’ve gotta be flat-out kidding me. Double overtime! Triple overtime!- Chuck wack on crack
Pace neutral stats are your friend. It's called ORtg and DRtg measured by points per 100 possessions.
Defensive Rating 2008-09
Denver ranked 8th at 106.8
LA ranked 6th at 104.7
Bulls ranked 18th at 108.7
Denver and LA were 7th and 3rd on offense respectively. While Denver became a big deal because they reached the conference finals, the team’s point differential in the regular season was unchanged from 2007/08 to 2008/09. The Bulls were right at the league average of 108.3 on both offense and defense.
by Scotter on Sep 28, 2009 1:51 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
PPG is a bad metric to use in judging team defenses and offenses.
Especially in different eras. I know I sound like a broken record, but I guess I need to be. If a team runs a lot on offense, the opposition will obviously have more chances to score. However, if that team can still keep their opposition from scoring at the same rate, it doesn’t make their defense bad.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
The Bulls exchanged Gordon for Deng? I could have sworn they once had both for a season. Probably remembering that wrong.
"I think he can still play" - Kevin Pritchard on Juwan Howard
Man, I'm going to miss following the team on a day-to-day basis
Moved to Atlanta (Emory University) a couple of months ago, gave up my partial season tickets. I won’t have the time or the ability to keep up with the team like I used to. Hopefully I can catch at least one of the games here against the Hawks.
The upper bound does appear to be the 4th seed, but the lower bound is out of the playoffs – which would suck beyond belief entering the 2010 free agent bonanza; our attractiveness as an option, IMO, is highly dependent upon the team success this year. And Matt’s point about potential injury is an important one; our depth is awful. I think it would be too much to expect a significant contribution from James Johnson, although that would certainly be nice, even as an 8th man (and it would bode well for the future).
Back to the books….
"You ain’t as hot as I is / all of these false prophets is not messiahs /
You don’t know how high the sky is / the square mileage of earth or what pi is." - Nas
I'm in the same boat
…just moved to California a few weeks ago for a new job. I have satellite, so I expect to see pretty much most of the games, but I still won’t be able to keep up like I’m used to doing. Not sure if the regulars have noticed my somewhat of an absence, but I haven’t been able to log on during the day since I’ve been at the new job…don’t want to abuse my internet privileges yet (not to mention my screen is pretty much in full view of everyone!).
I just got my internet connection at my apartment, but logging on in the evening (like I’m doing now) sucks because I’m like the only one on here at the time due to the time difference.
I’m gonna do my best to keep up with you guys. I plan on getting tix for when they play the Lakers and the Clippers. Look for me…I’ll be guy holding the sign that says “Bring Ben Back! D2.0 sucks!!” :)
left shark - "Kirk needs to go and join Ben Gordon and L Deng somewhere else trade Deng and Hinrich they no good"
by NormVanBeer on Sep 30, 2009 12:44 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Can Tyrus and Noah guard the paint well enough for the Bulls to improve defensively?
One of the hallmarks of the Bulls great defensive teams was that they always had interior defenders who were strong help defenders (blocked shots, charges) and good man defenders. If the Bulls get good defense and strong rebounding at the 4 and 5 spots, than the Bulls could significantly improve. A top defense with a budding star in Rose is a formula for 45 to 50 wins.
I like the trajectory Noah is on, and if he is stronger this year, I believe he has the chance to be a top defender in the paint. I worry about Thomas. He doesn’t seem to take pride in shutting his man down. He is too concerned with making the spectacular play at times. And I’m utterly afraid of VDN. I don’t know if he is capable of implementing a system that takes advantage of the Bulls obvious advantages on the defensive end.
If you look at this roster, 5 of the top 7 guys have reputations as quality defenders. Tyrus and Noah were drafted for defense and rebounding, Salmons survived in the league as a journeyman defender, and both Hinrich and Deng have been key pieces of really good Bulls defensive teams. Only Miller and Rose would be considered bad defenders. Deng and Salmons give you great length on the wings. Tyrus and Noah are quick, active shot blockers who also play the passing lanes well for big men. And Hinrich is as determined a defender and aggressive a defender as you will find in the NBA. If VDN can’t take advantage of a roster would this much length, speed and athleticism on D than he simply can’t coach D and is the wrong man for the Bulls.
by Basketball Smurf on Sep 28, 2009 12:10 AM CDT reply actions
I love me some TT
But he was out of position SO DAMN MUCH last year, he killed us on defense. I believe his +/- numbers bear that out. I don’t know if it’s a function of overplaying for blocks, or simply not understanding where he needs to be to play solid team defense.
"You ain’t as hot as I is / all of these false prophets is not messiahs /
You don’t know how high the sky is / the square mileage of earth or what pi is." - Nas
I think you mean the "hallmark of virtually any good defensive team"
Not just the Bulls.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
The hinrich injury isnt a big thing
it just sounds like a pulled muscle. Hes definetly a vet so he knows how to get/remain in shape for the nba season, and in terms of practicing plays and knowing the teams abilities (the real point of training camp?) hinrich is probably the one player with the highest b-ball iq on this team so i dont think hes gonna fall behind in that regard. Then theres the fact that he will be coming off the bench and wont be the teams starting pg anymore, which brings me to what i hope more than anything hinrich has been working on. HIS SHOT!!! Its more of an offseason thing to be worked on, but i hope that even if he was sitting out from the bulls practice, he was jacking up some shots. Also when he does get healthy i hope he is constantly put in a situation where he has to guard rose, if he can even keep up with rose, i think he can keep up with any guard…
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
I would imagine Kirk
guarded Rose in practice last season.
Recipe for Disaster;
C'mon Cubs, hurry up and blow this so I can relax.
by Bluekoolaide on July22, 2009 3:08 PM CDT
Maybe in scrimages
i always got the impression the bulls were just as surprised by rose and his abililty as we were…
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
McGraw is good indeed.
Hopefully his latest story is going to unfold (Thomas will have a breakout season and the Bulls still like him in the future of the team)
http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=324639
If Thomas pans out (and I still think he could given his potential), then the sky is the limit for this team, because it opens more alternatives for trades/2010signings. You could plug Wade in and you have a championship team (no other needs really). You trade Tyrus for Bosh and get a Joe Johnson, or stuff like that.
The Game chose him !
and kudos to Doug
for asking Thomas about the lack of extension talk this offseason. Unfortunately Thomas dodged the question :)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Sep 28, 2009 10:04 AM CDT up reply actions
An extension for Tyrus does not make sense for either party...
At this point Tyrus has not earned a very big contract and is better served playing out this season…While the Bulls want to maintain a some cap flexibility heading into next summer…
At least he is the only rookie scale guy playing for a contract this season.
Why isn't your friendly Bulls Blogger friendly?
By not paying him, they essentially ensure they won't have him going forward, though.
Whether they get the big-name free agent or not. Someone will offer him a contract fairly soon, and the Bulls will be on a deadline to match, and I can’t see them “failing” to sign all the possible max guys in that time frame. Meaning, they’ll have to not match the offer sheet.
The only way I can see Thomas being in Chicago next year is if the cap drops so low and/or Salmons does NOT opt out, that they know they can’t really sign anyone “of worth” before July 1st even comes around.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
I can totally see them failing to sign all the possible max guys. In fact, I'd bet on it.
1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box
by fundamentallysound on Sep 28, 2009 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions
Me too, AND Thomas and Gordon will be gone.
And no matter what you think of those two, they’re better than Pargo and Taj Mahal. Except to Reinsdorf, who will like the $45 million payroll.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
Of course they're better.....
Are they 10 times better?
And who’s going to offer Tyrus a max contract in this economic climate? The national press is ready to stick the “bust” label on his forehead.
Tyrus
Rather than classifying himself as a perimeter player or a post player, [Tyrus] classified himself as an X-factor
Why do I feel like slipping an ‘e’ in front of that X?
The more I think about it, this is the year for four players to develop: Rose, Deng, Noah, and James Johnson. We drafted PF/PF in the draft, we haven’t talked extension with Tyrus, we benched him in crucial minutes of the Celtics series. I’d be surprised if JJ isn’t playing 20-25mpg after the all-star break. After all the crazy player movement of the past 5 years, we’ve got four players that matter.
I really don't think James Johnson matters. Not anymore than Thabo ever "mattered."
1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box
by fundamentallysound on Sep 28, 2009 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
he'll possibly matter as the way for the Org. to try and get us to forget Thomas' failure
he’s a lot like Thomas, and not so sullen! And just as old!
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Sep 28, 2009 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions
I think it's a different situation though
Thabo was drafted the same offseason we signed Ben Wallace. The organization was thinking 3-4 year run of contention, and with the team’s two leading scorers at SG and SF, Thabo never had much of a chance.
I like Johnson’s situation better for three reasons. 1) Half the current roster (Pargo, Salmons, Miller, Tyrus, Hunter, James, Gray) could be gone by next year. 2) Nobody’s expecting us to contend for a title. 3) Our current starting PF is thin, offensively inept and has blown about a million chances to prove himself, making him a bad fit with Noah. Johnson’s meaty with scoring ability and upside, so we have to at least consider him as a longterm starting option, which I think is a privilege Thabo never had.
It's the same situation only flipped. Ben Gordon was considered an offensive dynamo
who couldn’t play enough D to be a starter (according to the Org.), so they brought in Thabo to be the M2GWCDaS. Tyrus is a defensive dynamo who can’t score efficiently, so they are bringing in a guy who is meatier and can score in a variety of ways.
Now, with respect to the team’s thinking, I agree that they aren’t looking to win a championship next year, but I don’t think that makes the situation markedly different, especially since if they get a 2010 FA (about which I’m dubious, but assuming it for the sake of argument) then they become very worried about immediate contention.
1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box
by fundamentallysound on Sep 28, 2009 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions
Are you equating Gordon and Tyrus?
Gordon’s proven he deserves 30+mpg in this league. Tyrus has proven to be a massive failure.
Thabo was drafted to complement Gordon, subbing in when we needed defense. We aren’t extending Tyrus, so Gar wasn’t looking for a complement when he went PF/PF.
Eh, that came out wrong
I kinda think Gordon and Tyrus are somewhat close ability-wise, although Tyrus has been wildly inconsistent. Tyrus isn’t so much a massive failure as he is massively replaceable for a #2 overall pick.
I think the difference between Thabo/JJ’s situation was that the Bulls needed Gordon’s skillset much more than we now need Tyrus’s. Take Gordon off the 2007 Bulls and replace him with Thabo, and we’ve got Hinrich and Deng running the offense. Take out Tyrus for James Johnson, and who really cares?
Rose and Salmons will care when they have no weak-side help...
…as they get blown by on the perimeter.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
If last year was any indication
they had Thabo in mind to start with Gordon coming off the bench. I know, it sounds ludicrous, but that was what they tried to do. Thabo was going to become Pippen or something.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
Right, but that's in Thabo's 3rd year
The original claim was “Thabo didn’t matter”, and he didn’t his rookie season. Nobody was grooming him as Gordon’s successor, we assumed Gordon would be here for awhile and Thabo would be a defensive sub.
You have some crazy revisionist history.
Thabo was supposed to be “ready” for the NBA and able to contribute right away. You are remembering things differently to make an argument.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
What argument do you think I'm making?
I said Thabo was drafted to complement Gordon, it looks like you’re agreeing with that.
Oh, my ADD gets me again.
I thought by “original claim” you meant the original claim of the front office back in 2006, not the original claim of this thread, which I am now thinking is what you were referring.
Yao: Johnson matters in development.
FS: He doesn’t matter, like I don’t think Thabo mattered.
Yao: Thabo was different. He never had a chance. (implies to me that Thabo never mattered to the front office)
FS: It’s basically the same.
Yao: They needed Thabo but needed him to complement Gordon, not be a starter. They weren’t looking for a starter down the road.
Cran: They started Thabo last year with Gordon on the team.
Yao: But it was Thabo’s third year. The original claim was that he didn’t really matter when he was drafted, and he didn’t. (Except that he wanted him to complement Gordon on defense.)
Your basic argument: James Johnson was drafted to play big role on this team in his first year, not 2 or 3 years down the road, and not to be the offensive complement to Thomas’s defensive prowess, as that would make the situation basically analogous to Gordon and Thabo.
“mer”
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
we also didn't extend Gordon. what's your point, there?
1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box
by fundamentallysound on Sep 28, 2009 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions
I think Tyrus is going to have a huge year.
The talent has alway been there but the basketball mind sometimes need to catch up. I think that will happen. Once you realize how to win and what you have to do to win on and off the court his athletic ability will take him places. He is the X-Factor for the Bulls.
I really thought Rose and Tyrus would have played well together and at times they did. What angers me is that Vinny has this young talent and he doesn’t really use it. I mean Tyrus Thomas can out jump most players in the league if they ran more alley oops for this kid and understood that Rose and Tyrus should thrive off each other.
I will kinda blame Skiles for part of Tyrus rather slow development but at the same time Tyrus hadn’t really matured at the time. He was a punk when he came here.
I think he’s matured in the last several years and you can see it when he talks. I hope they sign him.
Derreck Rose, you’ve gotta be flat-out kidding me. Double overtime! Triple overtime!- Chuck wack on crack
I was surprised that Tyrus and Rose did so little together.
Tyrus spent so much time away from the basket and out of the offense in general. As Vinny wasn’t yelling at him you can only assume that Tyrus was told to go out there. Maybe to stay out of the lane so Rose has a runway. Still, you’d think that now we have a real PG that Tyrus would be owning the basket.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
Didn't they say all last summer that they were going to focus on defense?
Isn’t that why they liked VDN over D’Antoni?
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
heh, that or being 1/10th the salary.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Sep 28, 2009 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions
I believe the real reason is what yfBB said
They were all set to hire Mike D and then JR came in and saw the asking price. Hence, deal nixed.
"This is not Vietnam, Smokey, there are rules here." - Walter Sobchak
by Rose Colored Goggles on Sep 28, 2009 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions
JR has a way of making people feel not wanted
when money talk starts. D’Antoni might have sucked it up had he known Rose was going to be on his team, but at the time whatever happened wasn’t worth the trouble I guess.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
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