So how would that '04 draft stack up if everyone got a do-over today? ........
3. Chicago: Andre Iguodala. Bulls take the Springfield, Ill., native, who has emerged as a 20-point scorer and franchise talent.
2 months ago
Belize
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At the time
I remember Iguodala being in serious consideration for that spot. At least nobody could complain about his size at the 2.
"I've missed more than 9,000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. Twenty six times, I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed."- Michael Jordan
by bigballa10 on Sep 18, 2009 2:51 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Except that he's a 3...
isn’t he?
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by bullhockey on Sep 19, 2009 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He plays the 2 and the 3
He’s actually listed as a G-F.
"I've missed more than 9,000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. Twenty six times, I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed."- Michael Jordan
by bigballa10 on Sep 19, 2009 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm a little surprised we didn't pick the local guy.
Of course he wasn’t compared to LBJ like a certain other guy was, but he was still local. That was enough for Pargo to find a job. What gets me is how hard we worked to find a tall SG that Chicago fans to hold their heads up high about it. There he was. Did people think BG was going to grow enough to be a Chicago approved SG? They should never have picked him with that fatal flaw.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
by cranscape on Sep 18, 2009 2:57 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
"That was enough for Pargo to find a job."
no, that was because Pargo ‘knew the organization’.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Sep 21, 2009 7:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Impressive draft, looking back
Maybe a good rule of thumb is “when in doubt, get the physically imposing freak with some basketball skill”. So many recent physical freaks that I wasn’t high on pre-draft (Iguodala, Aldridge, Thaddeus, Bynum, Villanueva, Gay) turned into solid players while undersized/semi-athletic skilled guys (Okafor, Shelden, Gordon, Frye, Felton, Foye, Redick, Conley) seem to disappoint at a higher rate. Of course there are exceptions.
If that holds this year, it would make Evans, Earl Clark, and possibly James Johnson good picks … James Harden, Jonny Flynn, Stephen Curry, Tyler Hansbrough, Austin Daye bad.
by YaoPau on Sep 18, 2009 3:14 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
James Johnson is a freak given his height and weight and measurables from the combine.
If he wasn’t chubby, people would rave about his athleticism.
1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box
by fundamentallysound on Sep 18, 2009 7:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
James Harden's measurables compared well with Brandon Roy, he's way more athletic than
he’s given credit for. He should be a good pick, I think.
1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box
by fundamentallysound on Sep 18, 2009 7:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
YaoPau makes me laugh.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Sep 20, 2009 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well you're still an ass, but
to clarify, I listed Harden as semi-athletic because I watched Arizona State through their conference tournament, and Harden didn’t have the explosion to get to the rim when he wanted to.
fs seems to put more stock into combine measurables, and you seem to also, since you said in the other thread
Melo is not more agile. Johnson hung with him in any athletic measurement.
But had you taken a second to look through the athletic measurements before using them to build your case, you would’ve found that they’re inaccurate. Taj Gibson was faster in agility testing than Tyreke Evans. Luke Harangody tested faster than Gerald Henderson. NFL prospects get tested at a handful of pre-draft combines, and their 40 times can vary by .3 from combine to combine.
Any online forum’s going to have a couple assholes, but if you’re going to mock someone, at least know what you’re talking about.
by YaoPau on Sep 21, 2009 6:56 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
James Johnson and James Harden are the same type of athlete.
Neither looks super athletic in a game but more tested out more athletic than most people thought they would. Yet, one is a good pick based on athleticism and the other isn’t?
And I simply laugh at your ridiculous cherry-picking you constantly do. You obviously have a good grasp of the mathematics of statistics (better than I do), but you have no idea how to apply them. And if we’re talking “athletic ability”, I have no idea how Aldridge becomes a “physically imposing freak with some basketball skill” and Austin Daye doesn’t. You’re completely, and yes, ridiculously, arbitrary in the way you make up a use for stats.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Sep 21, 2009 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
As for James Johnson
I’ve said that I’ve barely seen the guy play, so it’s hard for me to say if he and Harden are the same kind of athlete. I did, however, post a fanshot that I titled James Johnson vs. Clemson: The Most Interesting Mixtape You’ll See This Draft Season, and left this comment:
Could the Bulls be looking at Johnson not at PF, or at SF, but at shooting guard? It looks like he has plenty of foot speed and handle for the 2.
It looks like I’m completely wrong about his playing SG anytime soon, but enough stuck out on the gamefilm to make me realize he could be an elite athlete for his size.
So in this case, I don’t see how he and Harden are the same. The more I think about it, is anybody saying James Johnson isn’t an elite athlete? Harden put up All-America numbers at Arizona State while Johnson put up average numbers at Wake, and Johnson is two years older. The only reason Johnson was considered for the lottery was his athleticism.
As for Aldridge vs. Daye… Aldridge is a 6’11" PF with the lateral foot speed to switch off screens and guard the perimeter. 1) 6’11" is enormous for a PF, and 2) how many other PFs in general can guard inside and out? Daye on the other hand, is just a tall dude with a nice jumpshot. Watch the guy play, he’s going to be a defensive black hole in the NBA.
Have I made errors in applying stats in the past? Sure, and I’ll make more in the future, though I’m getting a sense that you’re really overstating the amount I’ve made. More often you’re seeing me differentiating Aldridge and Daye, saying to yourself “they’re the same!” and leaving a snide comment without any support.
You can state support once in awhile. I realize you know a lot about basketball, but laughing doesn’t do anything, especially in cases like the ones you just mentioned where neither of us are probably 100% correct, and the truth is somewhere in the middle (is Aldridge a “freak”? Okay maybe not a freak, but he’s levels above Daye). And if you’re going to bash the use of stats in arguments, start with ANY assumptions made via PER or ORtg or DRtg, and then call me out if I fucked anything up :). I do my best to filter out the few good stats from the shit, and intrepreting things wrong once in a while is just a part of the game.
by YaoPau on Sep 21, 2009 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow
"I've missed more than 9,000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. Twenty six times, I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed."- Michael Jordan
by bigballa10 on Sep 21, 2009 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
hopefully this comment just came off as more condescending than you intended it to.
by TheMoon on Sep 21, 2009 9:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, it came off how I meant.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Sep 21, 2009 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
that is a totally cherry picked list
and are Okafor, Gordon, Felton and Foye disappointments? They seem to be on the same level of the guys you listed in that first group to me.
by Basketball Smurf on Sep 19, 2009 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ben Gordon has been the 2nd best player from this draft.
Big disappointment there! (Unless you’re talking about Eric Gordon).
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by Andrew7 on Sep 19, 2009 3:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
2ND BEST???????
"One good thing about being wrong is the joy it brings to others"
by PORCH1 on Sep 19, 2009 9:14 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
eric gordon is nice
The only way you can avoid making a mistake is not to make a decision . Our Owner´s philosophy-
by Belize on Sep 20, 2009 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okafor and Gordon have been as advertised. Calling them disappointments is just putting random expecations on them
Felton has turned out to be a solid PG, grouping them with busts like Frye, Foye, and Reddick is pretty random.
The 2009 White Sox....like a 40 degree day.
by Ozzie Montana on Sep 19, 2009 9:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hope you are joking about the IGGY pick @ #3
He has an career avg of 15ppg and is a 30% three point shooter. He’s never averaged 20ppg and would be redundant if we still had Deng with the 7th pick. BG was the best SG of the class and the only guy who I would consider taking besides him would be Kevin Martin, unfortunetly, KMart cant play more than 60 games a season. Not to mention the fact that Skiles would probably rip of Iggys head and he would be terrible fit with Rose.
Out coaching VDN, so easy a cave man could do it.
by ssheth12 on Sep 18, 2009 3:45 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Iguodala is the best player of BG, Deng, and him. If you play him and Deng together, the D
is elite. Given that the Bulls were #1 and #2 in defensive efficiency during the Gordon era, imagine what having an elite defensive #2 would have done for that defense. It would have had the potential to be an all-time great defense. Seriously.
Also, given that Iggy is better than BG and Deng, if you draft him, maybe you go out and get a different SG to pair with him. So instead of Deng and BG, you end up with Iggy and a different SG. IF they did the Suns trade, and picked up Kevin Martin and paired him with Iggy, they’d be better off than they were with Deng and BG.
1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box
by fundamentallysound on Sep 18, 2009 7:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What is your basis on thinking that Iggy is the best player?
Defensively, I think he is over-rated. He has never made an all defensive team and for all his athletic talent, he doesn’t even get .5 blks a game. I don’t think he would have done much to the great defensive Skiles teams. If anything he would have taken away a few wins since he doesn’t do much on the offensive end. Adding, an ‘elite defensive player’ to an already elite defensive team doesn’t do anything. It was the same exact thinking that led to the Ben Wallace debacle. If you want to compare PERs of Iggy and BG they are relatively the same for the past 3 years. AI2 has a respective PER of 18, 19 and 18. While BG07 has 3 year PERs of 18, 17, 17. Except BGs offensive output out weight whatever little defensive impact AI may have. I will agree on one thing, Iggy is much taller than Gordon.
Out coaching VDN, so easy a cave man could do it.
by ssheth12 on Sep 19, 2009 12:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
fs I'm sure has a lengthier answer
But
Adding, an ‘elite defensive player’ to an already elite defensive team doesn’t do anything.
I don’t think you thought that one through…
by YaoPau on Sep 19, 2009 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My point was
That Iggy is nowhere near a great defensive player and whatever little difference he may have made on the defensive end, it would have been negated by what he takes off the table on offense. The Skiles teams had Curry, BG, Pargo etc. None of these guys were defensive beasts, yet we were still one of the best defensive teams. It’s not like Iggy is a lock down defender, so I just think BG was the right choice. Plus, I’m sure Skiles would have found a way to bench him and start Adrian Griffin or Duhon.
Out coaching VDN, so easy a cave man could do it.
by ssheth12 on Sep 20, 2009 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's hard to say how good Iggy is defensively
I’d say he’s elite, if you think he’s average, okay, I don’t have a way to disprove that. Either way, he’s a big improvement over Gordon at the SG position. Elite defensive team or not, swapping out Gordon for Iguodala improves our defense by a couple ppg.
Offensively, maybe Gordon was better than Iggy early on, but remember Gordon struggled offensively his first two seasons too. Basically all Gordon was good at was shooting the 3, and he had a .530 TS% through two years despite a 42% 3PT. Iggy struggled with efficiency too, but in the last couple years he really turned in on….
18.8ppg, 5.7rpg, 5.3apg, .560 TS% → Iguodala ’09
20.7ppg, 3.5rpg, 3.4apg, .573 TS% → Gordon ’09
I’d look at those numbers and say Iguodala was the better offensive player this year. Gordon had a slightly better scoring year, but Iguodala’s rebounding and assists more than make up for it. Overall, at worst Iggy and Gordon were a wash their first couple years, and now Iggy’s really separated himself. Gordon did do a good job in the role of “the only guy on our team who can score” though…
by YaoPau on Sep 20, 2009 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, who needs defense?
And comparing Ben Wallace to Andre Iguodala….you may want to get a new way to argue this.
The 2009 White Sox....like a 40 degree day.
by Ozzie Montana on Sep 19, 2009 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
iggy is a beast
but if we picked him up..we´d be good and we´d never get rose..so in some sort of way, thank u BG for Air Force 1, as well as making us suck on D and yet keeping us decent
The only way you can avoid making a mistake is not to make a decision . Our Owner´s philosophy-
by Belize on Sep 19, 2009 2:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Biedrens and Josh Smith
would go much higher in a draft redo than they have them.
by RichKarp on Sep 18, 2009 9:24 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Iggy is nice but he is nowhere near a franchise player. A #3 option of a good ECF/championship caliber team.
by C Smoove on Sep 19, 2009 12:04 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Interesting fact
Bulls traded the 05 first round right that became Deng. The Suns picked Nate Robinson and traded to the Knicks. So Nate became Deng. Maybe the Bulls will be better with the trade. I have my facts straight right????
by Fastbreak on Sep 19, 2009 2:21 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Following their do over (for everyone else)
I would pick Ben Gordon at #3 and either Kevin Martin or Emeka Okafor at #7.
Could you imagine having both Gordon/Martin out there at the 2/3 spots? That would be a handful for any team to try to contain.
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by Andrew7 on Sep 19, 2009 4:05 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
how effective is kevin martin
at sf? he seems pretty skinny/weak to me. Tayshaun gets away with being like that due to his incredible length and that wingspan, kev seems like a good sg. I also wouldnt pick up okafor at 7 at the time mainly because eddy curry and chandler were still high potential players who had a chance to be good. At three iggy really wouldve been nice and then perhaps kevin martin at 7…but i know you are a gordon fan so i would think your gordon 3 and martin 7 would work, either gordon or martin could start and and the other comes off the bench?
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by piccolomair on Sep 21, 2009 12:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kevin Martin could not play SF, and if he did that team would suck.
The 2009 White Sox....like a 40 degree day.
by Ozzie Montana on Sep 21, 2009 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kevin Martin would get slaughtered by SFs. Prince is actually wiry and strong even at his weight. Martin is just weak.
Also Daye and Aldridge seem pretty similar to me. Both 6’10"/6’11, thin, poor defenders, poor rebounders, decent shooters for their height. What’s the big difference?
by C Smoove on Sep 21, 2009 4:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeh offensively, it’d be lights out…if there were enough for both of em…..but there would be so much lane penetration. The team would be weak as hell as far perimeter D.
by C Smoove on Sep 19, 2009 6:46 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Pax is a fine drafter (honestly)
he did more than adequate in ’04.
I will even give him slack for having Gordon surge up his draft board after a workout. Can you imagine how impressive Gordon is in workouts?
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