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What if 2010 FA's say  no?



 I got the idea for this fanpost reading this article from Doug last week: http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/2009/08/what-if-lebron-wade-and-bosh-say-no.html
 
The quote in it that really got me thinking was this one

If all of the above fails we're looking at Luis Scola, keeping Tyrus Thomas, solving our needs through the draft and saving our money for another day.  That might actually end up being the most prudent path, but it will be tough to convince Bulls fans of that after throwing out the 2010 cap space plan as a reason for not coming to terms with Ben Gordon.

 

Now I have long been skeptical of this supposed 2010 "plan," especially considering that as currently constituted, if Salmons opts in and we renounce Tyrus (or vice versa-- if Salmons opts out but we don't renounce Tyrus) then we will probably only be about $13 million under the cap and won't be able to offer a max contract.  Even for arguments sake, if you want to assume that we get far enough under the cap to offer a max deal (moving Kirk, Salmons opting out along with renouncing Tyrus), it has been well documented that superstars rarely change teams in free agency under the current CBA, as the benefits to staying put often outweigh the benefits of relocating. 

This is where the "prudence" argument comes in-- under the current CBA, usually the players that relocate get "overpaid" and are often second tier stars.  Players like Joe Johnson (from Phoenix to Atl), Rashard Lewis, Hedo Turokoglu (this year), Ben Wallace, Ben Gordon, and Steve Nash (who wasn't a star when he went from Dal to Phx) are probably the biggest names to switch places via free agency under the current CBA, and almost all of them were considered overpaid at the time their deals were made.  This is why, as currently constituted, I don't think the Bulls can afford to be "prudent" next summer and avoid overpaying someone like Joe Johnson or Amare (provided his eye injury doesn't appear to be a problem this season) if/when Wade/LeBron/Bosh turn us down. 

As I see it, there are really two good ways to build a team-- there's the Portland/OKC model (which actually Paxson first used) which is burning everything down and rebuilding by getting under the cap and a plethora of high lottery picks.  We've already done that route and are likely no longer going to be bad enough in the near future to get a high lotto pick-- not to mention considering we have 1 whole playoff series victory in the post-Jordan era, so it's high time we start going for titles here and not tear it all down again.  The other model is kind of what I'll call the Orlando model, which is you get your young talent (they did it with Howard and Nelson-- our parallels to that I guess would be Rose, Noah, and hopefully Deng), and then fill in with free agents, even if you-- heaven forbid-- overpay for them, like Orlando did filling in with Turkoglu, Lewis, Pietrus, and now Bass, Carter, and Barnes as well.  As kind of an offshoot to that model is the Lakers/Celtics model, which is to get some good players and hope like hell someone is willing to dump a great player on you for very little. 

A lot of NBA experts like to rip on teams for "overpaying" players, but the fact of the matter is just because you are over the cap doesn't mean you are done making moves.  You can fill in around the edges with role players on MLE type deals, make trades with teams looking to dump money, etc.  For us, prudence should go out the window next summer.  I'm not the biggest Joe Johnson fan in the world, and I know that he'll be 30 by the time his next contract starts, but it's probably going to take something like 5 years 70 million to sign him away from Atlanta.  Is that overpaying for him?  Sure.  Is giving Amare the max overpaying?  Quite possibly, considering his poor defense and injury history.  However, we are not going to be able to contend if we are not willing to pay the tax; it is extremely difficult to contend without paying the tax-- the past 2 champions have been well over the tax threshold, and the final 4 teams left this year were all over the tax.  Giving big money to an Amare or Joe Johnson next summer should not be seen as the final move in contention, but just another move on the way to improvement, and there is little doubt that an overpaid Amare or an overpaid Joe Johnson will provide an improvement on the court.   After signing one of them, use the MLE or split it up on a couple other decent players.  Use next year's draft pick to add another useful piece.  If teams are looking to dump players, be in position to offer something useful in return for them.  Building a contender does not have to be an all or nothing proposition-- it can happen piece by piece, move by move, even if we are over the cap and over the tax with overpaid players.  Productivity and victories are the ultimate measures of success, not financial prudence, and after the shenanigans of this summer, the prudence needs to stop for the foreseeable future next summer.

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quick caveat to this post

this is obviously assuming we don’t make big moves between now and next summer, like trading deng, or moving some of our expirings for a big time player. i wouldnt really see trading kirk as abandoning my plan above, considering im guessing he would be moved for cap space.

by Calogero on Aug 18, 2009 9:21 PM CDT reply actions  

Luis Scola is awesome

I heard the Cavs are considering trading Lebron for him. Or at least that’s what some guy posted on here a while ago.

Why resort to name calling?
-Dionysus2.0

because I wish to insult you personally
-your friendly BullsBlogger

by Big D on Aug 18, 2009 10:02 PM CDT reply actions  

Haha, I don’t think Scola will even be in the NBA in a year or two.

Those Euro guys are scrappy but they aren’t incredibly valuable after they lose another step or two. They aren’t generally fast to begin with. Kind of reminds me of Nocioni in that way. Wasn’t a bad guy a few years back but looked like he didn’t even belong (especially on defense) before we traded him last year.

by RyPac13 on Aug 19, 2009 6:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

You're exactly right

they either need to pay for a tier-1 guy, or overpay for a tier-2 guy.

It’ll be interesting to see if they truly thought Gordon wasn’t worth overpaying, or they just don’t want to overpay anyone since they don’t have to.

I think they absolutely have to improve by paying, overpaying, or taking on a salary dump (another way of overpaying depending on how desperate the selling team is), because I don’t think Gar Paxdorf will get another 10 years of lottery picks to build another team.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 18, 2009 11:10 PM CDT reply actions  

For the umteenth time

I don’t think the Bulls ever thought that they could land a big FA in 2010. That is why they loaded up on expiring contracts (and draft choices and a player here or there) to trade with teams looking the LT right between the eyes. Those are the teams the Bulls will approach before the trade deadline and next July 1.

by hlac on Aug 19, 2009 12:15 AM CDT up reply actions  

well whatever

a 2010 free agent or having the cap flexibility to trade for someone of that caliber are pretty much the same thing.

Though they then should’ve hoarded more trade assets (or leftover assets) and kept Gordon?

And I don’t think it will happen this February, since the Bulls will not be a contender, and any substantial upgrade trade will put the Bulls in the luxury tax themselves. Based on Reinsdorf’s own words, such a deal won’t happen.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 19, 2009 1:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

But you're forgetting Reinsdorf

He’s said that he’ll only pay the tax for an ECF team, so we can’t build piece by piece when we’re over the tax.

Things could be worse. We could have kept Boylan.

by stupidgenius on Aug 19, 2009 2:03 AM CDT reply actions  

if we sign joe johnson next summer

and even add an MLE player we’d probably be over the cap but not the tax. that’s pretty close to an ECF team, so at that point we’d really just have to hope that the next move would put us into contender status in reinsdorf’s mind and he’d then pay the tax to get the final piece

by Calogero on Aug 19, 2009 8:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

I seriously doubt we will get a top tier FA in 2010. We will have to overpay for a 2nd tier type like Amare or Johnson.

Rose with a 2nd tier star and some solid MLE bench players could sneak into a ECF once the Celtics fall off due to age.

We’re probably going to go the Orlando route.

by C Smoove on Aug 19, 2009 1:29 PM CDT reply actions  

I think you're right

although I have no problem going the Orlando route, I believe it to be the most realistic anyways.

I actually think that in theory Joe Johnson is a better backcourt fit with Rose. That being said, if we can get Wade we obviously do that no questions asked. The other problem with that line of thinking is that Joe Johnson is basically a taller, higher paid Ben Gordon. So, if Johnson is the ultimate target, why didn’t we just re-sign the cheaper (albeit shorter, and for some reason that matters a lot to this org) version in BG?

I also prefer Amar’e to Bosh. He has a more well-rounded offensive game and really isn’t that much worse on defense. The skill set is there, just not the desire. But it’s not like Bosh is an all league defender anyway.

by Rose Colored Goggles on Aug 19, 2009 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

While I'm not saying BG is a bad defender

Joe Johnson is certainly a better defender. Whether that and the type of scoring he does equates to the contract differences is debatable.

by torch on Aug 25, 2009 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

umm
Players like Joe Johnson (from Phoenix to Atl), Rashard Lewis, Hedo Turokoglu (this year), Ben Wallace, Ben Gordon, and Steve Nash (who wasn’t a star when he went from Dal to Phx) are probably the biggest names to switch places via free agency under the current CBA


I think more research is needed before I read that and assume it as truth. Shaq left Orlando for LA during the peach of his career. Grant Hill also left Detroit during his peak, when he was still in the discussion as the Next-Jordan (laughable now, but not back then).

by yetti on Aug 20, 2009 3:58 PM CDT reply actions  

I know Shaq's pre-dated the current CBA

and if Hill’s didn’t it was close. Regardless, you are referencing two free agents who left their teams 10 or more years ago. Show me a tier-1 star who left his team via free agency under the current CBA and/or in the past 10 years.

by Calogero on Aug 20, 2009 4:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

thats a very select list

theres what, 5? tier-1 stars in the league now. And tier-1 stars nevery become free-agents. They generally always negotiate a deal with their team, or worst-case senario, a sign-n-trade is worked out.

Thats why 2010 is such an anomoly. So, I think your request is pretty skewed. I mean simply guessing, I’d say there have been 10 tier-1 free agents that have made it all the way to free agency. I guess you’re right, if you wanted me to admit that out of the 10 or so, tier-1 free agents that made it to free agency, none of them left their team. But again, thats what makes 2010 so special, the sample is almost doubled. And basing assumptions on that small of a sample, IMO, is stupid!

by yetti on Aug 20, 2009 9:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

*thats10 tier-1 free agents in the last 10 years... post-shaq era

and thinking about it, I think 10 might even be a stretch…

by yetti on Aug 20, 2009 9:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

Dwyane Wade

Pray that the Heat suck really bad this year.

I was hoping they wouldn’t get Odom.

It kinda makes me feel better about the idea that the Lakers will win another title… (I hate the Lakers)

…because them signing Odom “slightly” increases the chance of Wade leaving next year….

and maybe coming back to Chi-town. Come back to the Chicago culture… and weather LOL.

And “maybe” play alongside Rose. And form the best backcourt in the NBA. And create a matchup nightmare for other teams.

by 420man! on Aug 20, 2009 4:04 PM CDT reply actions  

Hey man, I lived in Atlanta, OKC and St. Louis before coming to Chicago

I’ve been in Chicago for over 7 years and I prefer the weather here to any city I’ve lived in. The cold’s not that bad and the summers are fantastic. Although, NBA players for some reason hate cold weather.

by Rose Colored Goggles on Aug 20, 2009 4:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

Last winter

Was one of the WORST winters ever… Had -11 degree weather!

This summer rained a lot but I don’t mind as long as its HOT.
We had some really really humid days though… But Summer is Summer. As long as its not winter.

I don’t see the reason why NBA players should hate the cold. They play inside a stadium with heating and air conditioning. They could use a small chunk of their money to buy those “Northface” fleeces or have their body guards carry around portable heaters.

by 420man! on Aug 21, 2009 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's rained twice in the last two weeks

Chicago weather never ceases to confuse me.

I support the Tornado Release [See: Joakim Noah]

by Prevenge on Aug 24, 2009 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

Chicago weather is the shit!

Take it either way…
Shitty or da shit.

Hey we can say that we would outlast Californians in a snowstorm.

by 420man! on Aug 24, 2009 6:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

I have lived in two places:Chi and Tallahassee, FL(where I went to college before I moved back here)

Chicago winters suck! They are that bad. When I was a kid in the 80s and 90s, they weren’t that bad. Now they are brutal. Iced-out roads with tons of cars spun off, just feelin that cold-ass lake wind penetrating into your bones. Don’t get me wrong, the humid Florida summers were pretty terrible in their own way. But I really think winters here are the worst.

by C Smoove on Aug 20, 2009 9:43 PM CDT reply actions  

They were bad in the 80's and 90s

You just didn’t notice because you didn’t have to drive or deal with the other BS. It was probably even fun having all that snow. I was also a kid back then, but having to walk 5 blocks and stand on the corner waiting for my schoolbus, i remember how bad it was. I remember the snowbanks so high i literally couldn’t walk on the sidewalk.

by runningman on Aug 28, 2009 5:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

Actually you’re right. There was more snow, but as a kid I liked having all of it to play with. And plus I used to wear a snowsuit so it probably didn’t feel as cold. Good point.

Regarding this season, we need to cut some payroll and try to at least still make 8th seed so we don’t look too terrible for any prospective FAs. Front office has to break course and roll the dice for once

by C Smoove on Aug 29, 2009 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

Why not just wait till 2012 to compete? Or Maybe 2013 when the economy has hopefully turned around?

Actually given that they may have to trade Rose as early 2012 in order to keep cap flexibility, I think targeting 2014 is better — hopefully the picks from the Rose trade will have matured by then and they can make a run.

by hitlesswonder on Aug 23, 2009 10:07 PM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

Good sarcasm

But the truth is that every team will not be competitive for a championship every year. The NBA has the fewest number of legit contenders than any league, including mlb. If sinking one season makes you competitive for the next one and beyond, it’s worth it. With that in mind, if they strike out in 2010, it does make more sense to try again to land a great player in 2011 than lock up their salary cap with middling players that won’t get them any closer to a championship.

by runningman on Aug 28, 2009 5:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think the Bulls badly need another elite talent to put alongside Rose + Noah + Deng in order to make their core good enough to compete with the other title contenders out there.

If they strike out in 2010 free agency … it’s very difficult to see where that player comes from.

One of those trades where you give up 4-5 players and a few draft picks? take a chance on somebody with a bad contract? try an older player?

That would be a tough situation … very hard to know how it would play out.

At least the Rose + Noah + Deng trio is very young and they’ll give the squad plenty of time to try and find the correct path. You’d like it to be immediate, but at least the team isn’t facing a five year window where if they screw up they’d have to start rebuilding all over again.

by NBR on Aug 24, 2009 8:41 AM CDT reply actions  

FORGET 2010

Concentrate on teams that have LT problems. Work on three team trades.

by hlac on Aug 24, 2009 11:13 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Doug answers:

it’s totally cool!

So what would I do in this situation? Going into 2010, I’d bid on LeBron James as hard as I could. I’d probably find out through some type of pseudo-illegal tampering that seems common place whether I had a chance to get him or not. If that doesn’t work, I’d throw out the same pitch at Chris Bosh and Dwyane Wade. If that doesn’t work, I’d let everyone else spend their money and go bargain shopping if there are any bargains out there. If not, and I expect their won’t be, I’d wait.

Sorry Bulls fans, but that might be the most prudent course going forward. It’s something we’ve had to do a lot of. Waiting to become a contender again. However, it’s better to wait with the window of possibilities open than to slam the window shut and lock us out of all of our dreams for a short term small improvement.

I’m not saying 2010 won’t work. I’ve always viewed it as a 20-25% chance of acquiring one of the big names, but until the salary cap recession, there were great backup choices. Joe Johnson, Amare Stoudemire, or maybe Carlos Boozer among others were solid back up plans. However, in an era where those players could be wroth 40% of the cap by the end of their contracts, you can’t justify that. It’s hard to justify anyone except LeBron in that type of price range.

::barf::

::gag::

::re-barf::

::gag::

::gag::

::cry::

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Sep 1, 2009 3:02 PM CDT reply actions  

ha!

shit, meet wall…

left shark - "Kirk needs to go and join Ben Gordon and L Deng somewhere else trade Deng and Hinrich they no good"

by NormVanBeer on Sep 1, 2009 5:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

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