True Hoop: High-Grade Sleepers
[From the FanShots. Can't get further into it today, but this does bring up an interesting discussion as to what the real expectations are to this season. Would a 'sleeper' success be 45 wins? Or should that be expected? -ed.]
Those aren't the only imperative questions for Chicago. Even if we conclude that they came of age in April, is it fair to expect them to continue their progress without their top scorer, Ben Gordon, whom they lost to Detroit?
Short answer: Yes.
over 2 years ago
Bigred15
55 comments
0 recs |
Email
PrintComments
typical
mainstream media loves to assume Salmons = Gordon or worse Salmons > Gordon.
Mmm, yes and no
This is a big NO.
Rather than resign themselves to their lack of post scoring, the Bulls began to use Joakim Noah and Tyrus Thomas in pick and roll schemes, where their agility allowed them to beat their defenders to the rim. So long as Thomas resisted launching jump shots, it worked.
Noah did this. Thomas did not. He kind of gives himself a plausible defense out of this box though.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Aug 17, 2009 4:53 PM CDT up reply actions
I've always preferred BG because of his coolness in the clutch
But if Luol can avg 18 and 8 he’s simply a better player at both ends than BG….I just don’t know if Luol’s an 18 and 8 guy until I see it without BG and a guy like Rose taking the defender.
I think Salmons is a lot better than oddly his BaB rep though….and I do think while we’re not an addition by subtraction, our record will improve because last year we were a mess to start the year….
Thurston Moore is a rock god
Unfortunately
according to the early-season schedule, we’re going to be a mess to start this year too.
by Rose Colored Goggles on Aug 17, 2009 4:39 PM CDT up reply actions
I think we're balanced enough to
weather that storm and be close to a shade better than .500 by Dec 1st…..we have had talent the past few years, but this is the first year that we’ve really had some balance in the roster (Thanks to Miller allowing Noah to swap 4/5)….
If Rose is what we think he’ll be off the bat this year, we could really surprise.
Thurston Moore is a rock god
We don't even know if Deng can play at the start of the season.
Or what role he physically can play yet if he does take to the court. His injury for a normal person can take a very long time to heal and Deng will be asked to deal with an NBA season. Last year all Noah had to do was get poked in the eye and have some additional conditioning problem for him to be a hot mess when we needed him most at the start of the year. I want Deng to get better because we are stuck with him more or less, but like him or not I don’t get why people are thinking he is going to show up and have the best season of his career and save the team. I am mostly hoping he can at least take minutes at his position because we are really limited at SF and I’d prefer him at SF than Kirk starting at SG because Salmons has to take over. shivers We need him on the floor but it is asking a lot wanting both that and a career year out of him.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
Kirk plays fine at SG
and the plan is to get him some minutes there anyway. Why do you continually talk about that as if it is a nightmare scenario?
right
to me, he’s a competent sg, but should not be anyone’s full time sg. so it’s fine for him to get minutes there, but not exclusively, and not a lot of them. i do not want to see a starting lineup of derrick, kirk, and john … just as i was tellin my cuz today so deng needs to be healthy.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
I don't want him as our starting SG.
Were we not all desperate to get rid of our last short shooting guard despite any of his shooting guard positives? Were we not all talking about getting rid of that midget backcourt finally? Kirk is a midget at SG. It can’t go one way and not the other when the starting SG position is discussed.
Kirk’s shooting was “fine” when he was a PG and less was expected of him, but the way our team is structured I don’t want Captain Klunk being our starting SG. Kirk’s defense has been sabotaged by the refs the last few years and I don’t think that will change. Back up PG with limited SG minutes or a starting PG on a different team.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
Can't take this seriously with this quote.......
When 100 percent, Deng is a rangy, athletic force in transition and in the halfcourt, where his height and handle give him a big advantage over most defenders at the small forward.
When a national website writes that Deng has “handle” it makes me think they haven’t done their scouting homework or have forgotten that whenever Deng puts the ball on the floor in the halfcourt he is stripped. I wish there was a baseball type stat site that had this stat for Ben and Deng – for Deng I’d guess 20-25% of the time he dribbles in the halfcourt there is a turnover.
Deng has better handles than David West
With the same kind of build i guess (just minus the post game) Ive been watching some bulls basketball games from earlier this year and from the 2006 year….i dont think deng gets stripped everytime he puts the ball on the floor…he only averages 1.7 turnovers per game for his career
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
by piccolomair on Aug 17, 2009 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions
Hard to lose the ball much when all you do is a set midrange jumper.
When he does drive to the basket he starts way too far out, his dribble is really high, and his gait is like giraffe. If you gave him the ball just a couple steps off from the basket it wouldn’t be a big deal so maybe he and Rose could work something out, but when he starts around the key or goes from his midrange jumper into a “surprise” drive to the basket it isn’t a pretty move.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
David West
isn’t a small forward though. He plays the 4 and isn’t expected to have much of a handle.
"In essence, our guys are complementary-type players. We still have to find a mix that works and is balanced."-John Paxson
You make a good point
Is there a stat that tries to measure success to failure rates when a player dribbles the ball?
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Aug 17, 2009 4:54 PM CDT up reply actions
Maybe there is a way of seeing what shots were from assists
and what were not. The ones that were not you can assume had some dribbling involved…
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
Everyone forgets
that when Deng had had a month and a half of healthy playing time after getting used to VDN’s “system” (January and half of February) he was averaging about 20 and 8.
If we can get that out of him this season consistently and everyone else plays to par (and by that I mean at least 18-8 from Rose, 18-4-4 from Salmons, 13 -8 from Tyrus, 12-10 from Noah and between 16-20 points total from Hinrich and Miller off the bench) then we’ll be a very good team this year.
Of course, the chances of all that happening and everyone staying healthy are probably pretty slim.
by Rose Colored Goggles on Aug 17, 2009 11:50 AM CDT reply actions
Deng staying healthy ... yeah right!
Vitamin D…
"I tried being reasonable, I didn't like it."
"Go ahead, make my day"
"We boil at different degrees"
"A good man always knows his limitations"
"You've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?"
I really hope we don't put Deng in iso anymore
A 6% effectiveness rate is something you really have to work at to attain.
As long as he’s not in any iso situations he’ll be fine.
I support the Tornado Release [See: Joakim Noah]
Also, reading that now,
the guy’s saying that if Deng doesn’t get injured, Tyrus puts it together, and Rose progresses after losing his biggest scoring threat from last season, then we’ll go somewhere.
That’s a lot of ifs.
I support the Tornado Release [See: Joakim Noah]
and that's just to 'continue progress'
not to actually be that great.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 17, 2009 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions
And some really big "Ifs" like
Deng staying healthy….
"I tried being reasonable, I didn't like it."
"Go ahead, make my day"
"We boil at different degrees"
"A good man always knows his limitations"
"You've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?"
They are setting him up to fail.
If we all start cheering for him to simply play and maybe hold down the SF position so we don’t have to move Kirk to the SG I think our expectations might be more in line with reality. The NBA season is long and from everything that is coming in he is at the far end of the spectrum when it comes how long his his injury is taking to heal and that estimate is for regular people who want to get back to their regular lives. He isn’t returning to a desk job. He’s in the NBA. I’d be happy if he returns to the active roster and gets back into the starting lineup. I don’t expect him to have a career year even if that is what we need out of him. It is unrealistic what what has happened to him.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
And no questions really about the coaching
So, I quess, this assessment is based on the coaching staying the same. Wow. what if the coaching improved. The outlook would be even Rosier. I think I’ll stop here.
Vinny del Novice did correct
some of his most egregious mistakes as the season progressed, so continued improvement in the coaching is not out of the question. Replacing Del Harris with someone interested in more than cashing a paycheck will not hurt either.
"Whoever was responsible for pulling that offer [to Ben Gordon] off the table...bring him before me and I'll punch him right in the face " - Frederick Pfeiffer
by Granny Waiters on Aug 18, 2009 12:24 AM CDT up reply actions
Deng’s handles are pretty weak for a SF. West is a PF so that’s not a good comparison. I remember Loul attempting to do spin moves and getting stripped quite often. Deng in iso is an ugly thing. I think he can average 20 and 8 this year. People forget he is talented, very limited due to his lack of elite athleticism and ball handling. But he has skill and is our best defensive rebounder.
I just don't see his body with-standing NBA physical contact and endurance over 82 games, probably never?
"I tried being reasonable, I didn't like it."
"Go ahead, make my day"
"We boil at different degrees"
"A good man always knows his limitations"
"You've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?"
Secondly Salmons can’t guard 3 positions. He can guard 3s effectively, and guard slower 2s. He can guard any PGs, he would get toasted so fast.
by C Smoove on Aug 17, 2009 1:11 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Derrick Rose: Season Two
I CANT WAIT!!!!
::::backflips over and over and over and over and over…..
The only way you can avoid making a mistake is not to make a decision . Our Owner´s philosophy-
Big rec to however said Deng’s dribbling gait is like a giraffe. Homie really looks like a giraffe when he dribbles. Dude really needs to do some dribbling drills all summer.
Or he should stick to moving without the ball
for those midrange jumpers and work with Rose to get something a little closer to the basket. If he only has to go a few steps maybe it won’t be so bad. If I was a Bulls player I’d be Rose’s best friend this season. It might be the thing that saves your career. There are a number of guys on the team who would seem to benefit from having some go to move with Rose, but it doesn’t seem like they’ve spent the time doing that. We can assume the coach isn’t, well, coaching or calling those plays for some reason, but Tyrus and Deng especially need to get BFF status. I was really expecting a lot of that kind of stuff because we have our PG now and it seemed like we did less of that than ever last year.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
i'll say this...
i prefer coming into the season as “sleepers” than as the favorite to win the east.
I wouldn't.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 18, 2009 10:04 AM CDT up reply actions
I would...
as long as you attach the phrase “with this roster” to the end of masputo’s sentence.
by Rose Colored Goggles on Aug 18, 2009 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions
I honestly don't get what the hell he's saying
he’d rather not be a team rated highly? That’d imply a better roster, which I’d take over a worse one.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 18, 2009 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions
Exactly
I think he was trying to compare this to the 07-08 season where we came in overrated and fired our coach midway through the season. He would prefer this season’s scenario to that one, and in hindsight, so would I. But that’s not saying much.
Now, if he was saying that he’d rather be in this position than that of say a Cleveland or a L.A. Lakers, well…then that’s just stupid.
by Rose Colored Goggles on Aug 18, 2009 10:58 AM CDT up reply actions
well I wouldn't because of the result
not because of the expectations. They didn’t fail due to ‘pressure’.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 18, 2009 11:07 AM CDT up reply actions
That's a valid point
and isn’t naming the Bulls as preseason “sleepers” kind of take away sleeper status and raise expectations anyways?
by Rose Colored Goggles on Aug 18, 2009 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions
wow, that was an awkward sentence
should have read: “doesn’t naming”
by Rose Colored Goggles on Aug 18, 2009 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions
i would def be all for being a championship contender...but yea...
i was referring to the season we came in as heavy favorites to win the east. didnt turn out too well… anyways i was being sarcastic. guess im still sour over that season.
My agreement with his sentiments is well documented,
but it has to be reiterated, no matter how many metrics you apply to discourage yourself from getting excited about Rose, it is clear that he has something that most players don’t. That is so much more positive than what we had. And how can anyone deny that if we hadn’t played 53 games with Gooden, Hughes and Nocioni that we wouldn’t have won more games?
I also think that the Boston series is underrated, that team had four good players, they still played physical defense, and they threatened the Magic.
As for what is a sleeper success? I say the 4th or 5th seed.
by Super-Structure on Aug 18, 2009 2:21 PM CDT reply actions
that works for me.
If they get 4th of 5th, they’d have a better finish than last year despite losing their leading scorer. That, to me, would be an unexpected success.
But there are some who expect the Bulls to finish that high, based on the way they finished last year and them thinking Gordon’s mintues will not only be easily replaced, but enhanced by Hinrich/Deng/Salmons.
I guess the inherent problem with a term like ‘sleeper’, or overrated/underrated is that it’s all relative to an expectation or evaluation, and the problem I have with such terms being used in generalities is that it assumes a consensus. What’s Arnovitz saying when putting the Bulls as a ‘sleeper’? It reads as if one should expect the Bulls to be worse this year, but the ‘sleeper’ aspect being that they will actually stay the same. So as far as myself, I actually have higher expectations than what Arnovitz uses as a consensus, since I’m expecting them to be pretty much the same as last year?
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 18, 2009 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't really understand what makes the Bulls a sleeper
I think last year we didn’t expect much and they made the playoffs resulting in an exciting 7 game series. This year, the media seems to be touting them as a young team on the rise, and it would seem expectations (at least in the media) are a bit higher. I just don’t see the Bulls being more than a lower seed (6-8) and losing in the first round again. I don’t see how that makes them a sleeper. I thought a sleeper would do something unexpected, but I guess we’ll see what happens.
"In essence, our guys are complementary-type players. We still have to find a mix that works and is balanced."-John Paxson
Miami Heat is another Sleeper
Michael Beasley will get better.
Mario Chalmers was a serviceable PG for a low draft pick.
If Jermaine O’neal can stay healthy he can help…
and of course Mr. Wade continues to do his thang.
O Neal..not going to stay healthy. Chalmers is serviceable but that’s all. Beasley will get better offensively but still struggle defensively. And they still only have four good players.
Change some names around
and you almost have the Bulls right there. We are not the only team that has to have everything to line up for good things to happen. Wade has a lot of hail marys in his history though so the Heat could go either way in my mind. Rose will have to do the same and I wouldn’t want to wish that on anyone.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Ball Don't Lie - NBA - Yahoo! Sport
- Days of NBA Lives: Wherein Roy Hibbert tap-dances to Maine
- Grizzlies Valentine’s Day cards are the key to love
- Kevin Love would like the NBA to take the MLB’s approach on All-Star games
- Kobe Bryant fires a few hilarious salvos at Jeremy Lin
- Brandon Jennings states the obvious regarding his 2014 free agency, everyone goes nuts
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
