Scape goat: Ben Gordon for staff lacking of teaching/coaching defense!
by exult463 on Jul 5, 2009 9:10 AM CDT
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All of the responsibility will be on the players to enact great team defense in 2009? But those great defensive teams T.O.T speaks of in fanpost:
http://www.blogabull.com/2009/7/4/938074/forget-who-left-for-the-d-just
and the others outside of Chicago had a great defensive architect who wasn’t on the court.
Phil Jackson didn’t design the triangle offense, but his speciality is defense and he taught/teaches it passionately.
Skiles recent history coaching with the Bulls speaks for it self, even with Ben Gordon playing a key role for the team. (This argument alone questions much of the criticism towards BG defense. Bulls org is nothing but smoke and mirrors for distractions)
Now, answer this question… who on the coaching staff has experience to teach and enforce team defense to get back too: (ranking 6th in the NBA and 3rd in the East during ’06-’07 averaging only 93.8 points against per game) … Again BG was on this team and lead the Bulls in scoring?
Something to think about
The main components to ranking higher in defense and allowing less points allowed is slowing one’s offensive down playing in a half court style game, likewise enforcing the same upon the other team.
This becomes effective if a team has a better half court game together with a inside-outside(low post scorer plus 3pt) threat, again together with great half court offensive sets (scott skiles specialty,vdn has no clue in this). Three components!
Now some here and the Bulls will now decide to preach to play better defense when they now have none of the three components to pull it off?
Another John Paxson whim without any clue or strategy to his thought process! Think just a year ago the organization was preaching we have to speed up the offense because we are young, yet now saying defense (but, really this means slow the offense down) Confusion. But next summer stupid Paxson will say we need offense. So predictable!
Smoke and mirrors of distractions to justify a policy of cheapness!
There’s is nothing wrong with wanting to be better defensively, but this Paxson organization has only a strategy to vacillate back and forth without real commitment to any real strategy
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Great post
Exactly. The Bulls were an above average defensive team when defense was the main focus. I didn’t and don’t like Skiles overall but there was some semblance of a real offense. And I’m sure they practiced D a lot in practice. Obviously with Vinny, defense is an afterthought. So it’s foolish to scapegoat one player for defensive lapses. Of course it’s on the player to individually improve his D but a lot of this falls on the actual team strategy.
We have no strategy, therefore we have no defense.
by C Smoove on Jul 5, 2009 10:07 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for referring to my post, but it's T.O.E.
And, I don’t remember saying all the responsibilty was on the players, but if you don’t preach defense to young players, they won’t do it, which goes with what your are saying.
It doesn’t take an architect for players to do things that have been taught since grade school like “STOP THE BALL” or “GO STRAIGHT UP.” But, a better coach won’t hurt.
T.O. Estes III
by T.O.E. on Jul 5, 2009 12:53 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
T.O.E. "But a better coach won't hurt".... OK agreed! I'd go a bit farther and say a true defensive coach or supporting staff architect is a necessary ingredient for winning NBA Championships
together with having all-star caliber players who are influenced to make a commitment to playing excellent one on one defense (as you speak of) and coordinated help team defense which is taught and perfected with practice, correction,enforcement and emphasis.
man up!
by exult463 on Jul 5, 2009 8:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The term is "escape goat".
Yours Truly,
Karl Malone
"Whoever was responsible for pulling that offer [to Ben Gordon] off the table...bring him before me and I'll punch him right in the face " - Frederick Pfeiffer
by Granny Waiters on Jul 5, 2009 2:05 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
IIRC, that was after the big Bulls blowout of the Jazz in the 98 finals.
"Whoever was responsible for pulling that offer [to Ben Gordon] off the table...bring him before me and I'll punch him right in the face " - Frederick Pfeiffer
by Granny Waiters on Jul 5, 2009 7:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jackson and Jordan
Some of you might remember but playing defense for MJ was considered not a need ….He is the best player in the NBA why does he need to play “D”..Well Mr. Jackson instilled into this young man the importance of playing both ends of the court and playing with in a system…..Some how this CBA coach changed the thought of a youg MJ and 6 NBA titles later….well you know the history….Now a decade later we had another prolific scorer named Gordon yet due to his inability to think team first and learning to play “D” when we had a defensive minded coach ……we prefer to blame the (current) coach because he (Gordon) cannot fight thru a screen or even apply pressure on the ball……MAYBE VDN was preaching defense i.e. benching Rose however the self centered Gordon didn’t think it applied to him ………………therefore that could be one of the reasons he is gone….you cannot hold one man accountable and not the other …..SO IMO that is one of the reasons BG is gone …….VDN & Bulls org knew that he (BG) was a self centered and a cancer to this team that wanted too much money…..sorry I hate to show too much emotion i prefer to be sarcastic vice serious but I am tired of VDN getting blammed all the time when we all know due to his lack of backbone could not stand up BG
by bluezman7 on Jul 5, 2009 4:47 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
You make good points about Jordan and Jackson, but this past year so many different players failed to move into the lane to stop ball movement.
Not just Ben Gordon. This thing about BG not fighting thru screens is far overblown, like its some type of cliche being put out by the organization. I’ve seen times when Gordon has made a excellent effort to play defense and others where his commitment was intolerable. Likewise I’ve seen the exact same from Kirk Hinrich. Times when Kirk’s defense was so bad I could holler, and other times the opposite (nothing but praise!).
The one thing I saw which was a mistake but acceptable with this organization, which I felt was a grave problem in the entire coaching staff and with the floor leadership “captains”. There was no real accountability for blown assignments, just occassionaly a little cordial soft words spoken in the players ears. Or the players would just smile like “Kirk” does often and act a bit remorsely but again do the same stupid thing on the next play.
And no one, I mean no one would offer strong correction in a firm stance as witness with captain Jordan, captain Kobe, captain KG or coach Phil Jackson, or coach Popovich. Every stupid mistake determines the outcome of games and is the difference between winning and losing. I can’t envision with Vinny using your words " getting blammed all the time when we all know due to his lack of backbone could not stand up" anything will get any better, but only worst.
Next do we get rid of Tyrus because he doesn’t respect Vinny, next Rose, Noah next, next, next????
Once we get a team full of players like Deng and Kirk who lack real competitive attitudes, but listens to a coach who doesn’t know what he’s doing.. we will have arrived!
Phil Jackson commanded respect before he won any championships. Something about Phil Jackson’s disposition even he is early years, which displayed an air of confidence. Even as rookie coach. Jordan realize the benefit to following this great rookie coach. Now using your argument.. Ben Gordon has never encountered a coach which commanded similiar respect because I can’t agree or accept that BG is a stubborn selfish ass as you are trying to paint.
Vinny like johnnie paxson both have no strategy just empty words, and that in essense was BG parting words and that also is exactly what I’ve witness this entire time John Paxson has been in leadership.
Lindsey Hunter is just retiring, but I see future potential for him to become a good coach one day in the NBA, unfortunately he is not ready and still is an semi-active player that needs experience not as a player but in coaching as a junior.
man up!
by exult463 on Jul 5, 2009 8:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Bulls teams you referred to under Skiles had good opponents FG%
which is more important for these bulls than slowing the game down when you consider the players (rose) the bulls have now. The Bulls might score a few less points next year, but I bet they have a better opponents FG% without BG.
by BigforkBullsFan on Jul 5, 2009 9:14 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
"I bet they have a better opponents FG% without BG "
Therefore, your assumption is they’ll have more than 41 victories also? Am I correct!
I think it’s safe to say it’s better to win more games and make the playoffs with a defense less stellar than to lose more games, miss the playoffs and your defense is still bad, but you held opponets .5 of a percentage point better than last year!
Remember BG was on the 06-07 Bulls team and lead the team in scoring, which had an upper ranked defense under Skiles. Now you suggest with BG is gone and the defense gets better in 2009, yet the same BG was on the 06-07 team and the defense was stellar. This argument makes Monkey Sense!
BigforkBullsFan ..defender of the Bulls Organization …
After careful consideration…“The Bet is not even Noteworthy”
man up!
by exult463 on Jul 6, 2009 12:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
When the Bulls defense was stellar and Gordon was leading the team in scoring he was
always playing with a strong defensive guard in the backcourt in either Hinrich or Duhon, and therefore could always guard the weakest offense threat in the opposing backcourt, which usually was the only opposing PG. The defense was still consistently worse with Gordon on the floor during those years. Now Derrick is guarding the opposing PG, and Gordon had to guard opposing SGs when they played together. That’s a significant change that makes Gordon’s defensive liabilities a much bigger issue since Derrick is going anywhere. It was the Hinrich/Gordon backcourt that was still the best backcourt for the Bulls in 2008/09 defensively by far, but also offensively. The unfortunate thing for Gordon is that he’s a better defender than Derrick, but still not good defensively to make that backcourt anything, but a major defensive liability, and Derrick even becoming a Gordon level defender isn’t enough to fix that backcourt. Obviously Gordon leaving for nothing sucks, but there’s a reality between Gordon being the reason for the poor defense and Gordon not being to blame at all.
And when the Bulls were playing stellar defense in 2006/07 they averaged the same 93 possessions per game that the team averaged in 2008/09. They weren’t slowing down the game or playing more half court offense. The Bulls getting back to playing good defense has very little to do with slowing the pace of the game. Points per possessions for teams are easy to access, there’s no reason to be making a flawed argument based on points per game.
by Scotter on Jul 6, 2009 1:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hold it a minute
Before we give all the credit to Mr. Wonderful Kirk Hinrich and partially some to Duhon.
I remember that defensive players in P.J. Brown (appeared in 72 games), Ben Wallace (77 games) Thabo (appeared in 71 games) and Adrian Griffin (appeared in 54 games) were also on the team, together with Skiles coaching which contributed to a total defensive effort.
The 06-07 personnel versus this present 2008-09 personnel together with Vinny and no defensive effort has brought about BG to be the (e)scape goat!
Furthermore based on what your’re saying I can envision Derrick following the same fate as Gordon (if his defense stays doesn’t improve significantly).
Might there be another problem in the organization? which is the present coaching team inability to teach defense and utilize the strength and minimize the weakness of each player together with helping guys improve?
man up!
by exult463 on Jul 6, 2009 7:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just Hinrich alone made a significant difference in this season's defense and Hinrich's not even
a special defender. But Hinrich alone meant the difference between an above-average defense with Hinrich on the court and a below average-defense with Hinrich off the court. There was a 6 point swing per 100 possessions, and that’s not just noise. Everyone can argue about good Hinrich’s defense actually is, I certainly don’t think it’s anything super special, but he made a clear difference in the team defensively when he was on the court. Hinrich and Duhon did make difference on defense. If Derrick was the next Jason Kidd or Gary Payton playing with Gordon wouldn’t be an issue on defense because Gordon’s defense isn’t a significant problem if he’s primarily guarding PGs and non-scoring SGs, but unfortunately Derrick doesn’t have that kind of size and isn’t going to be that kind of defender.
For the Bulls to go from having an above-average defense to having a special defense will obviously take better coaching and better play from the frontcourt players, but the team already has the frontcourt players to do it. None of the players named were members of the defense that was nearly as good in 2004/05, and only Wallace played more than 1500 minutes. Noah, Miller, Thomas, and Deng are more than capable of giving the team what it needs from the frontline defensively, now they have to do it. They may not be able to lead the league ind defense again with Vinny coaching, but they can be a bottom of the top ten defense even with Vinny given the defensive talent on the roster.
by Scotter on Jul 6, 2009 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
EXULT463
First I would like to address BG lack of fighting thru screens, trust me I am not supporting the Bulls org. However if you watch the games of this past season including the post season you will see for yourself that, that man could care less about playing defense. Second I agree with team captains, but who was the team captain? I would have to say since Deng was out and Kirk was out it was Gordon by default. So IMO VDN was trying to get Rose to step up to plate and be a leader of the team. Which keep Rose on the bench when he failed to do so and we all complained.
So back to VDN it was his first year and yes he did not command the respect from his players. I will say being in the military for 21 years I have seen men make the same mistakes by trying to be buddies with the men they command, however once they learn that is not possible they become great leaders. Now what is the timeline for Vinny to learn that; I have no clue? So once Vinny grows a spine and yes gets in his players backside during timeouts in regards to lack of defense or not rotating to help, our defense will suffer. Yet I do not think he could have done that this year with Gordon as the leader of this team. Why because Gordon as a self centered player would have used the media to air his complaints about Vinny. I think Vinny was smart enough to realize that and knew that the Bulls had no desire to resign him. So why bother with a player that you knew was going to be gone. So yes Gar’s lip service about signing BG was just that. Why? Maybe to raise the price on Gordon that they had no intentions of signing. Which could possibly put that team out of contention of the 2010 FA race?
SO if VDN does not take charge of this team then YES I am all for getting rid of him. But this was his first year; so give the man space to make mistakes and learn. If you think you can do better your rookie year then I implore you to send your resume in as the next coach for the Bulls. I also ask do you really think that any organization plans to post their short and long term plans on a website, so all the world including their competition can view. Come on now please. I am sure they have a plan we are just not privy to the plan.
by bluezman7 on Jul 5, 2009 9:46 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The things that make you go Mmmmm!
The point you made about Ben Gordon captain by default, and Ben’s exercising his power is really interesting… something to think about?
BUT..
“I am sure they have a plan”?
yes it vacillates back and forth year to year. Just like Paxson’s voiced strategy!. A classical hole digger that digs holes and then fills them back up, and then digs another to repeat cycle
“just not privy to the plan”
please bluezman7 open your eyes the “plan is profitability at the cheapest price”, getting the best talent and winning takes a back seat. 2010 with the Bulls is a joke and will be a joke!
" Second I agree with team captains, but who was the team captain?"
This is a self admission of a sad state of affair for this Bulls organization. No one knows who the GM is during the season, no one even knows who the captain is. The GM quits, one captain is critized by the organization for being soft and never plays thru injury, the other captain was replaced last summer in the NBA draft. Paxson talks about nothing that makes sense in this regard. Yet, VDN let everyone know who the coach was because at times he wasn’t even sure!
“I implore you to send your resume in as the next coach for the Bulls”
I want to warn you I have more basketball coaching experience than the guy who is coaching now before he got hired. Yet, I am not interested in coaching the Bulls. Is it a crime to give my objective criticism without provoking your usual and traditional whimpy challenge as a bias supporter of (every foolish decision) this organization.
man up!
by exult463 on Jul 5, 2009 11:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
EXULT463 sorry I have been busy
First you can warn me all you wish however I get tired of people (in general) that do nothing but bring problems to the table and NEVER have a solution. No it is not crime to speak you’re your mind, I have served for the past 21 years ensuring you can continue to invoke your right to freedom of speech. Just be prepared when someone speaks their mind.
Second I have been critical of this organization as well i.e. the Ben Wallace trade and the perpetual trading of young talent for nothing in return and yes at times the direction. Additionally, if they make the trade for Boozer I will NOT support that trade either.
Sir I am very sure that I have more back bone than you so calling me wimp makes me laugh. In all of my past post, I never had to resort to; I guess name calling to make a point.
Next, if I owned a business my priority would be "to make a profit", oh wait I did own my own business once. When I sold it I made a profit! Is that a crime?
SO I suggest to you if you really care to make a point to JR, organize a grassroots BOYCOTT THE BULLS. First get the people of Chicago to avoid spending any money on the Bulls i.e. season ticket holders, do not attend the games, do not buy jersey’s and do not watch the games on TV which would hit WGN and their sponsors’. That should get his attention.
My questions to you are; do you not think that Gar is taking more control of this team? You made the point of trading player after player so the coach can establish is reign. What is the difference of an organization of hire and firing coach after coach for the star player? I believe you have a great respect for Coach Pop, whom I think is second to Jackson. But if you remember before he won in the shorten strike season he was on the firing block. I like the fact we did not go after another NBA re-tread and took a chance on VDN. But that is just me! Do I think Avery Johnson is waiting to coach the Bulls? Hell yes!
by bluezman7 on Jul 10, 2009 9:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
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