Why the Bulls might be Good and suggestions for 2010.
The Good?
1. Kirk Hinrich will succeed in his new role.
There are obvious reasons to question Hinrich's ability to live up to his substantial contract and also reason to fear an increased role after he laid a giant egg the season before last. But I think there is sufficient evidence to suggest that he might excel in his new role.
(1) He can convert the three point shots that Ben Gordon once took. He shot 41% from three last year, 38% for his career and has generally done well when given more opportunities. (2) The more minutes he plays, the better he does. I say this after looking at his game logs the last season, where he did considerably better when playing 30 minutes or more; he also played markedly better 2 seasons ago when he averaged 36 minutes a game. (3) He and Rose play well together, which improves the defense and the ball movement. The Rose-Hinrich lineups without Gordon have a +13, +20, and -13 +/- respectively. Truehoop had an anecdotal description of them playing together early last season which describes the potential of the combination quite well. (4) The more minutes he plays, the larger the net defensive gain for the Bulls. Lineups including Hinrich held opposing teams to a considerably lower estimated field goal% and the Rose-Hinrich-Deng-Thomas-Noah lineup had the best defensive rating of any Bulls lineup. (5) Not to mention he performed considerably better after the all-star break when he shot 45% from the field and 45% from beyond the arc.
2. Joakim Noah and Tyrus Thomas were on the rise at the end of the season and will continue that trend.
Over the last three months of the season (34 games) Tyrus averaged 13.5ppg on 47% shooting in about 32mpg; he also averaged 2.1bpg/1.3stls/7.6rbs. Over the same period of time Noah averaged 8.8ppg on 58% shooting in 30mpg and 1.2bpg/.7stls/9.2rbs. Noah also improved his free throw shooting percentage, also--and started getting to the line for that matter.
I got all of these numbers from their splits pages on b-r, so you can double check to see if I did my math correctly. Either way I find these numbers encouraging and they make me think the Bulls were right to not get rid of Hinrich and Thomas for an injury prone rental.
3. Rose-Gordon-Salmons and Rose-Gordon-Deng just didn't work that well last year, whereas lineups with Hinrich did.
The five worst 5 man units for the Bulls last season, according to +/-, were: (1) Rose-Gordon-Deng-Noah-Thomas [-49], (2) Rose-Gordon-Deng-Gooden-Gray [-47], (3) Rose-Gordon-Sefolosha-Thomas-Gray [-33], (4) Rose-Gordon-Salmons-Thomas-Noah [-31], and (5) Rose-Gordon-Salmons-Thomas-Miller (-18).
I don't believe this is representative of anything about the players--except for Gray, whose presence is anything but inconspicuous. What it does seem to suggest though, that the Bulls were less successful with three players who required isolations, which makes the possibility of starting Rose and Hinrich somewhat enticing.
It is also worth note that (1) and (4) on that list were the two most used lineups last year.
4. Rose is going to be really really good.
The Bad?
I recognize that the Bulls have some noticeable holes in their armor. If Deng continues to have injury problems, they will feel the loss of Gordon in full; I am sure that a healthy Deng is one of the better small forwards in the league, though I cannot be sure we will ever see that player. There are also legitimate questions about Salmons continuing last year's anomalous performance; though my personal opinion is that there wasn't anything particularly out of the ordinary last year for Fish, aside from taking 2.3 more threes per game than the year prior. I see no reason why he will not have the opportunities this year, which would likely keep his percentage up.
The most glaring danger is the bench. Miller, Hinrich, and Pargo are solid bench players and Johnson could be one a couple years, but the Bulls cannot rely on Gray and Gibson to back up our three big men or continue to rely on Miller for 27 minutes a game--though I suspect Noah and Thomas will take some of those minutes; any expectation that they will supports the growing "treading-water" sentiment around these parts.
2010
The creeping reality is that signing a max player with the cap-size shrinking will be a tall order. Assuming both that the first tier max players will resign with their teams (Lebron, Wade, Bosh, Amare and Joe Johnson), that the restricted first tier player will resign (Roy) and also that the the cap will lower to 55 million; that leaves the Bulls with about 17 million to spend next year.
I believe that the Bulls should make three moves, (1) offer Tyrus Thomas 28-35 million for 4-5 years; (2) offer David Lee 45m million over 5 years; (3) offer John Salmons for Ronnie Brewer in a sign and trade at 26 million over 4 years. Obviously this assumes that Lee is unable to find a deal this year and that Tyrus will sign for 7 million; but seeing as Portland locked up their money with the Miller deal and that New York seems intent on having Lee accept the QO, the first assumption doesn't seem completely farfetched. The Tyrus deal is right around what Villanueva got which is the strata I'd put Tyrus on. The third move is the biggest stretch, but the Jazz already have 52 million in contracts not including Brewer's QO as well as also having C.J. Miles. I have a feeling they will be completely disinterested in letting their 23 year old stud go, but a move of that sort is far more attainable than Dwyane Wade or Joe Johnson. These moves would also leave us with a core of Rose, Noah, Deng, Lee, Thomas, Brewer, Hinrich and Johnson with the oldest of the bunch being 29.
I don't expect all of this to happen but I hope it promotes thinking about the positive potential for the Bulls. What moves outside of Bosh or Wade do you think the Bulls should attempt?
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Hinrich will be better next year but I doubt he will shoot 3s at a clip that Ben could. Kirk can shoot but he’s very streaky. I know Ben was too, but you knew he was good for 3 3 pointers. Kirk can make them but it’s asking a lot for Kirk to be the main shooter on the team now. Not sure he can pull it off.
I always swear I'm going to stay out of these threads, and I never seem to manage it
Ben, Kirk and John were much closer on 3-point shooting last year than people seem to realize. Per36, Ben attempted 5.1, Kirk 4.5, and John 4.3 – with Ben making 2.1, Kirk 1.9, and John 1.8. So even if you knew Ben was good for 3 of them, he was only making 2 per game on average.
I’d say they absolutely can do what Ben did last year (talking about the 3s only) – the problem is that we now need them to do better than that to compensate for Ben, since we’ve gone from three guys shooting them down to just two. So they need to keep their own 3-pt production at the same level and split Ben’s between them. And for both of them, that will mean maintaining a 3-pt % above their career average while taking more 3s per minute played than they ever have before. (I should add, I’m hoping Jannero’s not on the court enough to really count him into the equation.)
All of which means that, no matter how good Kirk shoots the 3 next year, as a team I expect we’ll be shooting a bunch less 3s next season. Unless Derrick or Lu show up with a big-time improvement from 3, I guess, but I’m not holding my breath on that one.
In honor of the dearly departed, I declare July PB&J month - everyone raise a sandwich to the memory of Ben!
by wjb1492 on Jul 31, 2009 7:54 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Keeping St. Kurt will cost the Bulls the cap space
to sign a premier 2010 free agent.
"Whoever was responsible for pulling that offer [to Ben Gordon] off the table...bring him before me and I'll punch him right in the face " - Frederick Pfeiffer
St. Kirk? What are you talking about?
What if we trade Hinrich now and we are unable to sign Wade or Johnson; who then do we have at guard aside from Rose?
by Super-Structure on Jul 30, 2009 8:23 PM CDT up reply actions
I would rather watch Pargo jack up shots,
than Kurt pound the ball at the top of the key or dribble behind the basket.
Actually, I would rather watch Gordon make shots, but that train has left the station.
"Whoever was responsible for pulling that offer [to Ben Gordon] off the table...bring him before me and I'll punch him right in the face " - Frederick Pfeiffer
by Granny Waiters on Jul 30, 2009 8:38 PM CDT up reply actions
Must we always come back to the same stuff over and over again, it is stifling.
by Super-Structure on Jul 30, 2009 8:45 PM CDT up reply actions
Indeed, that is why we complain so much.
"Whoever was responsible for pulling that offer [to Ben Gordon] off the table...bring him before me and I'll punch him right in the face " - Frederick Pfeiffer
by Granny Waiters on Jul 30, 2009 8:50 PM CDT up reply actions
I would rather watch Aaron Gray jack up shots
than Pargo.
The Pargo signing makes no sense to me. Why do we need somebody who can come in and jack up shots? Especially when he can’t make them?!?
Argh!!!
…
bashes head w/keyboard
Vinny Del Negro: Possibly the most unintentionally irritating last name in the history of last names [Hint: I can't for the life of me pronounce it correctly].
-Brandon Jennings: PG of the future!
If by some miracle we are able to attract one of these players...
we will be getting them by sign and trade. What contracts will we use to get these players if we don’t have Hinrich/Salmons/etc.?
by Super-Structure on Jul 30, 2009 8:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Ben Gordon
shit. ::covers mouth::
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 30, 2009 9:09 PM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
basically I agree that a sign and trade always looked more likely for the 'big' FAs
which is why the Bulls so boned themselves by letting an asset leave. Salmons will be 31 and Hinrich 30 next summer, not exactly great trade chips for a team giving a way a superstar. They’d likely rather just trade for a huge trade exception instead.
So the Bulls best chance for a trade will actually be this trade deadline, with all their expiring contracts. But I don’t see any of these teams giving those guys away before the summer either. Maybe the Jazz with Boozer.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 30, 2009 9:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Maybe Amare too
like I said, it’s possible. Though what if a February trade means that the Bulls would be over the tax threshold? Would Reinsdorf do it? They wouldn’t be in contention (since they’d have to trade a way a bunch to get the star player) so maybe not.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 30, 2009 9:20 PM CDT up reply actions
I am still holding out hope...
that we can pull off an Amare deal.
by Super-Structure on Jul 30, 2009 10:29 PM CDT up reply actions
the Suns could get desperate before he enters free agency
the more I think about it he may be the best plausible option.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 31, 2009 12:04 AM CDT up reply actions
It is the most plausible plan to get an excellent player.
by Super-Structure on Jul 31, 2009 12:17 AM CDT up reply actions
though i just thought of a possible snag
Amare the locker room guy and in general boastful eogocentric type. With him commanding a max salary I’m not sure he’d achieve Reinsdorf son status.I wish that wasn’t complete facetiousness on my part.:-/
Heck there was a report saying they wouldn’t agree to pay Amare the max last deadline…
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 31, 2009 12:30 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Hopefully Amare stinks it up this year up until Feb
With his reputation, past injuries and concerns of health, Phoenix’s rebuilding situation (sort of), maybe a bad start to the season will lower his trade value a tad, compounded by the expected shrinking cap.
But then again, hoping a guy to tank is a bad omen before he gets signed to your team. Ug
Vinny "Remember, I'm Italian" Del Negro no longer has Ben Gordon on his roster. What will his offensive coaching strategy be now? He won't be able to just yell, "Shoot it, Ben!".
Agreed, kind of...
I do think that if Phoenix/Amar’e underperform up until February (and of course he makes it known he’s not re-signing) then yes, it will lower his trade value.
Unfortunately, I believe our front office is looking for any excuse not to pay a max FA next summer so if Amar’e isn’t performing well that can always be their built-in “out.”
by Rose Colored Goggles on Jul 31, 2009 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions
right, what he costs in a trade is all moot
if the Bulls won’t pony up for an extension.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 31, 2009 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions
exactly
that just gives them more room for rookie contracts and another year of Aaron Gray + Lindsay Hunter!
Hey! Maybe we can even re-sign our big man coach (Miller) to a deal next summer also!
I can’t wait!
by Rose Colored Goggles on Jul 31, 2009 3:12 PM CDT up reply actions
The three problems I have with your 2010 plan
1. Why would we have Tyrus and Lee?
2. Salmons for Brewer is a stretch, and I don’t think it’ll happen.
3. If we don’t make those two moves, we do nothing except resign Tyrus. That’s something, I guess, but it makes me want to shoot myself that we would do nothing in 2010.
Basically, we have the same team as we do now, without Miller. So, if your math is right, we have 17 million dollars to spend on someone to backup PF and C. Assuming Jerry is Jerry, we spend maybe 8 million a year for that, and then sign some league minimum players to fill out the roster, say that we’re an up and coming team, make the first round of the playoffs, get knocked out, say that we’re young, and our players will be a lot better next year and we’ll be contenders in two or three years. Sound familiar?
Things could be worse. We could have kept Boylan.
That definitely is a possibility.
I think if Haywood from the Wizards is healthy, we should look at him; there are probably some other guys I am missing who are better.
by Super-Structure on Jul 30, 2009 10:30 PM CDT up reply actions
I almost wish Kirk never came back last year
his nice end-of-season run has people thinking he’s a completely different player. Did he have some sort of botched surgery on his hand to make him amazing a la ‘Rookie of the Year’?
It’s also possible that his shooting numbers last year were the outlier. And he will not take the 3-pointers Gordon would have, he’d take the easy ones. Are we sure that it wasn’t the players who required isolations, but the lack of coaching that required isolations?
And Vinny’s attitude towards Thomas in the playoffs sort of dampers that season-ending surge for him, as well.
It could be argued that Rose wasn’t even good (all things considered) last year, so getting to really really good may be a larger leap than we anticipate. Plus the main threat alongside him is gone. (Though if Hinrich is really good, maybe really really good isn’t that good?)
Anyway, I get the idea that with things breaking right and Kirk really finding his home as a 3rd guard, things ‘might’ turn out ‘good’. But what’s good? 45 wins?
And your ultimate result through positivity thinking is a pretty underwhelming ‘core’. Plus somehow Kirk Hinrich’s still in the freaking core! :)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 30, 2009 9:08 PM CDT reply actions
Just wondering,
what argument can be made against Rose being good last season? Even with his awful defense I would still consider him an asset at PG. He shot well enough from the field, put up pretty respectable A:TO numbers and was an adequate rebounder. Sure, he was bad, often terrible, defensively, but I would still consider him a good PG.
Well, out of the 30 starting PGs
Rose has to be in the bottom 5 defensively, both as an individual and team defender. There was just a complete lack of awareness that was sometimes compensated by pure athleticism.
His passing was good, not great, and at times pretty “meh.” There were certain things he could/should have done better (rebounding the one for me). The lack of FTAs suck, but honestly he was abused in the paint, just never got the calls.
Then again, Derrick was 20 years old with 1 year of college experience. Compared to all the recent 1 and done players, he’s done about as well as anyone, especially with such a large role on the team.
The Chicago Bulls.....the more profitable Los Angeles Clippers.
by Ozzie Montana on Jul 30, 2009 10:59 PM CDT up reply actions
I would consider Steve Nash in the bottom 5 PGs defensively
and he won 2 MVP awards. Not saying he totally deserved them (Kobe should have won at least one of those), but he was still the best PG in the league during that time span.
And, what with the increased “focus on defense” we should all expect Rose to improve in that regard, no?
by Rose Colored Goggles on Jul 31, 2009 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions
Hey, I'm with that sentiment
I’m not going to compare Rose to PGs who are in their prime like others do, he had a good rookie season considering all the factors, but expecting a huge leap in production is not realistic. Maybe if he was on a horrible team like the Thunder, there would be no pressure to win and he could blossom, but there’s a win-now (at least make the playoffs) mentality. It usually takes 3-4 years before you get the finished product, so I’ll happily watch him grow.
The Chicago Bulls.....the more profitable Los Angeles Clippers.
by Ozzie Montana on Jul 31, 2009 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions
Oh for sure
I dont’ expect Rose to transform into the “Jason Kidd with a jump shot” or the “more athletic Steve Nash” that he was billed to be immediately in his second year. I’m looking for improvement in decision-making, willingness to take over games and better defensive awareness.
I think those are pretty realistic expectations. Think of the jump Deron Williams made from year one to year two — if we get anything close to that I will be extremely happy. I’ll settle for Rose turning into a top 3 PG in the East this year. I think that’s pretty realistic.
by Rose Colored Goggles on Jul 31, 2009 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions
ozzie, you're an idiot.... arguing that Rose had a poor 1st year
simply humorous… and to say he wasn’t a good rebounder? He averaged 4 a game for a rookie point GAURD!!!!! Compare that to your 30 other PGs rookie averages
he could've been a better rebounder
and he needs to get the line more.
I’m not worried about Rose in the least, just pointing out that a real big relative jump for him next year may not be to that elite level.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 31, 2009 12:06 AM CDT up reply actions
and it was his first season and he's 20.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 31, 2009 12:06 AM CDT up reply actions
You're still talking to yourself, huh? ;)
In honor of the dearly departed, I declare July PB&J month - everyone raise a sandwich to the memory of Ben!
I think now that his rookie "trial by fire" is over, the refs will cut him some slack.
Derrick Rose should have shot 6 or 7 free throws per game last year but got jobbed out of so many whistles…as many rookies do. Dwyane Wade’s FT attempts doubled in his second season. I see Rose doing something similar.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Aug 4, 2009 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions
I think the Rose wasn't good arguments...
are huge stretches of the meaning of good; he was bad defensively and he and Gordon were an absolutely god awful defensive pairing, but I am not sure there is any evidence for you suggestion—I am just not convinced that advanced +/- ratings mean anything for a rookie who was playing 75% of the time for a .500 team.
As for Hinrich, I never said anywhere that he would be really good; only that he could succeed with more minutes and more shots. I also think you underestimate Brewer and Lee and I would honestly take Brewer and Lee over someone like Joe Johnson in a heartbeat (though I am sure some would argue vehemently against that). I think this year the Bulls could be where the Hawks were last year (good for 4th in the east); with a few good signings, I think they compete with the top of the east.
by Super-Structure on Jul 30, 2009 10:39 PM CDT up reply actions
I thought we all learned
two ok players does not equal one great player. I guess the difference is the opinion of Joe Johnson’s greatness. Some others are higher on him than I am: if he’s the ultimate prize it’s not much of an upgrade over Gordon and he’s several years older.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 31, 2009 12:07 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't think he is much better than...
Gordon and I think his defense is overrated. I would much rather have a young strong 2 who gets to the line and shoots 50% from the field. Lee and Brewer are both strong players, they are not ok players.
by Super-Structure on Jul 31, 2009 12:16 AM CDT up reply actions
and if the Bulls could be where the Hawks were last year
where did the Hawks go?
Everyone can say they’re competing for the 4th seed. It’s pretty wide open.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 31, 2009 12:08 AM CDT up reply actions
It is my belief that we are on the same strata as the Hawks and the Raptors...
which is “comfortably above .500.” If the Sixers get Sessions then they will be there too, but currently they occupy the “about .500” strata, that consists of the majority of the East—with the Heat at the top threatening to reach the next strata (because of Wade) and the Pacers, Sixers, Bobcats, and Pistons contending for the last spot. I guess that puts us at 45-48 wins and a 4th-6th seed; if we miss the playoffs or get 8th/7th seed around .500, I will consider the season a disappointment; I think these are reasonable expectations given the roster and assuming that next season we will make a move.
If the star players sign away from their original teams and those teams are clearly no better than the Bulls, I will be upset; if they can only be gotten for sign and trades that fleece a team, I am not going to lose any sleep.
In the end my view of positivity about the Bulls comes down to one belief, that the periods between transcendent stars are largely a vacuum where at best you make it to the playoffs and at worst you repeatedly shuffle the deck while riding the bottom. Though I have been often upset by the Bulls since the collapse of the dynasty, I do feel that since Paxon has taken the helm, he has drafted pretty well and remedied his bad signing. The loss of Ben Gordon was disappointing to me, but since I understand the logic behind the decision I am not going to lump them in the same category as Krause’s high school experiment. I also think that with all the grumbling about Reinsdorf’s love of money, people forget that he stands to make a lot more with a true contender, and will make the move if that arises.
If there is a chance that he gets Wade, Bosh, or Amare (assuming he comes back healthy) you don’t think he does everything in his power to make it happen? I just don’t buy that he wouldn’t or doesn’t want to. Rose is our ticket out of the gutter, Reinsdorf stands to make money if he invests in him.
by Super-Structure on Jul 31, 2009 5:38 AM CDT up reply actions 7 recs
just the thought of having wade and young rose is sick!!!
If I get to see that happen then I probably wont get ill to my stomach watching BG bury 3’s for the pistons or tyrus being all over the rim in 2 – 3 yrs somewhere else. Amare too, if his eye is ok
Amare's too mean
so maybe he’s out. Reinsdorf makes money on a Rose-only team, too, and the Bulls are in the complete opposite of the gutter.
I’m not sure Paxson has drafted that well if you consider Gordon walked and Tyrus is likely about to be as well. Thabo was just given away. I actually think Krause’s experiment was more of an actual plan, it just sucked.
I think the Bulls are only in the ‘comfortably over .500’ group if they don’t have a single injury. Though I won’t consider the season a disappointment if they’re in the 7th/8th seed, only a disappointment if they aren’t seen as an attractive FA destination.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 31, 2009 9:31 AM CDT up reply actions
If Tyrus walks and no one is signed, we will stand shoulder to shoulder with pitchforks in hand.
by Super-Structure on Jul 31, 2009 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions
while that sounds potentially fun
let’s hope it doesn’t come to that :-D
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 31, 2009 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions
I think the Bulls are only in the ‘comfortably over .500’ group if they don’t have a single injury
I tend to agree maybe removing the ‘comfortably over’ adjective. Still I like to qualify it more than just staying heathly requirement.
First, the Deng/Salmons playing SF situation or moving Deng to PF first has to be resolved. Deng is going to be soft no matter where he is placed on the court. The organization will do whatever it takes to inject Kirk into the lineup in both SG and PG roles in a starter type situation.
I believe the play of Kirk and Rose will be key to the .500.
How well Rose plays and grows will be interesting and I can’t really gage his ceiling. I didn’t like the way he, so often, finishes at the rim sometimes with the extra pumps and contorted flipping (so much energy expended) to score the ball, when it seems as if he could have just took a extra stretch step and laid the ball up routinely on many occassions? Althought his mid range jump shot got so much better at seasons end.
Kirk, needs to run and get into a offense faster and quicker and not pound the ball so much. Kirk plays one-on-one basketball moreso or evenso than/as John Salmons, and often dribbles forward and backward to get his man off balance at the top of the key to allow him to hoist up a 3ptr. He will sometimes, but more often reverts back and slows the game down unnecessarily without any governance for Vinny.
But he’ll be playing SG so this should be a concern? He’ll be running pg too often because Derrick will defer because he feels the weight and pressure of the “favorite son”
I expect Kirk to do exactly as he has always done.. which is to be very streaky. Therefore in some games he’ll score 4 pts in another he’ll score 30pts but in the games when he scores 30 pts, most of his pts will be in qtrs outside of the 4th, where he’ll continue to miss shots. Maybe his last 7 clutch period shots will be misses and the Bulls lose. This is an area of concern. Kirk has no confidence taking the ball to the hole and scoring, it is now almost completely not part of his game? Which is baffling because he plays PG/SF combo?
I don’t expect much difference from Deng, other than 15 ppg all in the first three qtrs of the game. Therefore Salmons and Rose will need to finish games strong.
"I tried being reasonable, I didn't like it."
"Go ahead, make my day"
"We boil at different degrees"
"A good man always knows his limitations"
"You've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?"
I don't believe that Rose has an offensive ceiling.
His speed, quickness, handle and athleticism are completely unparalleled at the position. All he is missing is a consistent jumper (the form is there) and star calls (I think we all know they are coming).
As for defense, I seriously doubt that someone as willing to admit his own faults will continue to get burned as he did last season; I also believe that he and Gordon were all too willing to let the other get blown by as long as they couldn’t be directly blamed for it—and I do mean to suggest that Hinrich will produce better help defense.
I am sure that we don’t have to worry about substantial time with Deng at 4, and I would also guess that the suggestion is more about preventing Noah-Miller lineups (which were pretty unsuccessful) then about replacing Tyrus’ minutes.
I think we forget that whether Deng scores or not in the 4th quarter or whether or not he is “soft,” he has consistently been a completely unheralded defender. I feel confident that having him Hinrich-Deng-Thomas-Noah on the court for substantial periods of time will make the Bulls far better defensively than Gordon-Salmons-Thomas-Noah (which will probably make Rose’s defense look better as well).
It comes down to whether or not what Deng and Hinrich produced in 06-07 was a complete fluke or if the last two seasons are a detour. I tend to stand right in the middle, I am not going to expect this mystical return to form; but it is possible that injuries (Deng) and inconsistent playing time (Hinrich) have prevented them from reaching their full potential. Either way, we will see next season.
by Super-Structure on Jul 31, 2009 5:45 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm not sure how you conclude Kirk goes one-on-one more than John
I certainly didn’t get that watching the games last year. Here were the scoring – assisted % and assist % for the perimeter guys last season, per 82games.com and basketball-reference.com:
Assisted % Assist %
Derrick – ……36……………..28.8
Ben – ………..45……………..15.9
John -………..51………………8.8
Kirk – ………..54……………..22.7
Lu -…………..73………………9.0
Beyond that, Doug Thonus did a statistical analysis of the one-on-one thing (incidentally, as a defense of Ben), and had this for isolation usage and effectiveness:
Bulls players isolation usage and effectiveness:
John Salmons 25.65% / 51%
Ben Gordon 20.34% / 69%
Derrick Rose 14.24% / 47%
Luol Deng 9.09% / 6%
Kirk Hinrich 9.02% / 52%
And beyond that, it’s kind of a funny criticism, since one of the frequent complaints I see about Kirk is that he can’t create his own shot.
In honor of the dearly departed, I declare July PB&J month - everyone raise a sandwich to the memory of Ben!
Maybe I exaggerated on that point!
Sure Kirk can create his own shot, it’s typically created while he is operating in the direction of moving north-south as oppose to moving east/west/east towards the rim.
Therefore if a player has both in his arsenal, plus effective drives to the rack then he’s probably a more accomplished offensive player. Whereas many players have neither, or non of the three.
Kirk effectively can shake his defender off the dribble moving north-south and pull up and take a good shot. Yet anything other than that, then his offensive repertoire is basically confined to spotup set shots and occassionally coming off of screens for a jump shot.
I guess my disappoint with Kirk is the once promising existence and now non existence of taking the ball to the rack with any kind of authority or confidence of scoring using two speeds to keep the defender off balance or using the underneath side of the rim to keep his shot from being blocked.
I believe most all starting pg have that skill in the NBA, with Steve Nash being very outstanding with this skill, as well as Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Tony Parker, Derrick Rose, Rondo, Devin Harris, etc.etc.
"I tried being reasonable, I didn't like it."
"Go ahead, make my day"
"We boil at different degrees"
"A good man always knows his limitations"
"You've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?"
I think we'd all like to have him better at finishing at the rim
In honor of the dearly departed, I declare July PB&J month - everyone raise a sandwich to the memory of Ben!
Wow.
Look at that Ben Gordon effectiveness rate!
Let’s all hope those don’t go to Deng, lol. 6% 6%?!? How is that even possible? Wow.
Vinny Del Negro: Possibly the most unintentionally irritating last name in the history of last names [Hint: I can't for the life of me pronounce it correctly].
-Brandon Jennings: PG of the future!
Also:
Kirk doesn’t really play 1 on 1 at all. He pounds the ball a lot, though, which is bad. Hopefully … he … stops? …
Vinny Del Negro: Possibly the most unintentionally irritating last name in the history of last names [Hint: I can't for the life of me pronounce it correctly].
-Brandon Jennings: PG of the future!
Incendently
for the first couple weeks he came back from injury, he was not pounding the ball and looked real good as a pg, however after about a month back he reverted back…i never quite got that…since after the injury he seemed to have alot of swagger back…then gone…hopefully he can sustain staying in that form an entire season (career?)
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
"however after about a month back he reverted back…i never quite got that"?
This is one if the biggest mysteries regarding Kirk, yet not only Kirk!
Not only last year, but also in the Miami playoff series, years ago. Kirk exploded and was running the offense and the Bulls won that particular game, and I believe he did it also one prior game in that series and then he reverted back to slowing it down and pounding the ball. Maybe at Skiles request?
It was one of the most dumb founded things I have ever seen, and I never notice any coach openly address Kirk and attempt to have him to play and lead more to his strength? It’s almost like he is hands off, no mentoring allowed and it doesn’t seem as if it’s his desire, but from someone higher.
It just doesn’t make sense or I’m just seeing something different?
"I tried being reasonable, I didn't like it."
"Go ahead, make my day"
"We boil at different degrees"
"A good man always knows his limitations"
"You've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?"
Damn
Was that a typo? 6%! wtf
"In essence, our guys are complementary-type players. We still have to find a mix that works and is balanced."-John Paxson
I'm so sick of everybody talking about how God awful Rose and Gordon were defensively.
Hinrich has been a second team all-NBA defender…but I’d take Rose or Gordon and their God awful defense any day of the week over Hinrich.
And I like Hinrich, but I just realize that Gordon wasn’t as bad as people made him out to be and Rose will naturally get better as a defender. Hinrich likely won’t get any better offensively.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Aug 4, 2009 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions
I saw the Bulls against Seattle in Seattle 2-3 years ago,
Kirk chased Allen all over the floor. Allen scored, but Kirk made him inefficient. The Bulls won. Against the Celtics, BG chased Allen. After the 2nd-3rd pick, BG was trailing Allen badly. That’s the difference. It is real, and it is deadly.
Oh can I dream!!
As I wait for the big excitement of the release of the NBA schedule I having been doing the second best thing, watching a replay (over and over) of game six of the playoffs. Fun, fun, fun! We are down by 8 with 3 minutes to go in the game. Rhondo is at the line shooting two. We could have been down by 10 if he makes both. Brick and brick!!! Salmons was a quiet monster, particularly going to the rim and not settling for jump shots. Salmons defense on Pierce was terrific. Rose made a key basket and Miller was huge. Hinrich hit a big three. The lineup in the overtimes was Noah, Miller, Rose, Hinrich and Salmons. Substitute Deng for Hinrich and Tyrus for Miller and we have the 2009-10 starting lineup. Noah steals the ball, scores and one. Pierce fouls out and Rose blocks Rhondo to win the game. The icing on the cake is that BG was a non-factor, 4-14 and fouled out. I know someone will point out that KG was not there and this series was miss-leading. However, I thought our defense with this lineup was terrific. I am hopeful that we can be a defensive force this year. Noah, Tyrus, Deng, Rose and Salmons potentially can cut our points against from 102.5 to one of the league best at 93. Cutting points against by over 9 would be huge. Hope blossoms in the summer!
STFU
Things could be worse. We could have kept Boylan.
Same here
I watched game 1, 4 and 6 of that series, watched the bulls vs pistons game 5, watched highlights from the miami series, watched this years games against toronto which was cool cuz i could compare the different rosters and i got to see how good deng is (i remember at the time i was hating his game, but when i watch the game without real care for the outcome deng shows up to be a real good player) I also watched how we kiked the cavs ass on tnt, not to mention a bunch of youtube highlight reels of past seasons….Ive said this before and ill say it again, Man Im excited for this next season….
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
BG was HUGE in that series.
Things could be worse. We could have kept Boylan.
Just plain "huge" is stretching it
He was much better down the stretch than overall, as he often was – and people always remember big shots at the end of games. That’s fair, and Ben does that as good as anyone. But his playoffs this season were not great overall. There’re legitimate reasons for that, most notably the injury, but he really struggled with his shot a lot. And it also doesn’t matter much to me, because Ben showed what he is over 5 full seasons, and I don’t think one playoff series after all of that changes a single thing
So I give him all the credit in the world for playing hurt, and for taking (and often hitting) the big shots, and he deserves credit along with the whole team for a thrilling playoff series – but imo it’s revisionist history at its best to talk about Ben having a great playoffs. Maybe people just want to remember it that way because it represents his final games as a Bull.
In honor of the dearly departed, I declare July PB&J month - everyone raise a sandwich to the memory of Ben!
NOt to mention
if you watch any highlight reel or clips from that playoff series you see ben gordon and ray allen going back and fourth with daggers. Not to mention derrick rose’s awesome game 1 performance that keeps getting brought up (although he never was that effective again through the rest of the series) and Noahs steal and dunk definetly got him more recognition….just the same hinrichs blotched layup probably solidified many peoples assumptions of his game….
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
Good to know I'm not the only one watching replays
I still cringe at that botched layup. Beside that Hinrich really was solid. You have to be impressed with Salmons. He quietly gets the job done and his defense was superb on Pierce. I did not realize how good a defender he can be when we got him. That trade saved us last year. I agree with you about Deng. The question is can Vinny adjust and become a defensive coach. The 2009-10 group has the potential to be an excellent defensive team.
you've must have seen
a clip of hinrich dunking, I think his rookie season, what happened to that hinrich, how do you fast forward to the celtics series and see him botch a clutch layup. (piccolomair = resident hinrich expert???)
don't let the bed bugs bite
Nice analysis, here's mine
41 wins last year. I expect to add 9-12 more wins this year. Why?
A) I expect Rose, Tyrus, and Noah to continue to improve and gel.
B) Full years from Fish, Deng, Kurt, and Miller, including training camp. Those are 4 good players. Adding that to a .500 team? That’s a major upgrade from last year.
C) Contributions from Johnson where needed. (and Pargo!!)
D) Coaching staff will be better.
I mean, come on. That’s a lot of plusses. (BG being the only subtraction) All we need is the vets to play to their averages. The other point that many naysayers are missing is that lets say its the same ole, same ole from Kurt,Deng,Noah,and Tyrus? Frustration after frustration? Rose alone in his second year (if he is transcendent) is worth plus 5-8 wins.
3-4 seed and major damage in the playoffs. Challenging Boston, Orlando, and Cleveland.
Now that's some serious optimism
50+ wins? That’s a bit of a stretch especially considering that some of the other teams got better in their conference (Toronto and Atlanta to name a couple). I think if they can be over .500 that would be a decent year for this group. Maybe 43-39 at best. They are no worse than a 38 win team though in my view.
"In essence, our guys are complementary-type players. We still have to find a mix that works and is balanced."-John Paxson
I don't think Atlanta got better. Crawford is terrible.
Toronto got better, but the Sixers got worse, the Bobcats got worse and I will have to see the Wizards to believe them. The Bulls team that played for the start of the season was god awful; a full year of no Hughes and no Nocioni is good for 45-47 wins.
by Super-Structure on Aug 2, 2009 8:47 PM CDT up reply actions
Crawford is replacing Flip Murray
and overall the Hawks can play the same ‘internal development’ card that we’re being fed.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 3, 2009 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions
Crawford is playing
exactly the role he should be playing as a scorer off the bench. He can score in bunches and in that role, he’s not terrible at all. The Hawks were better than the Bulls last year and are bringing the same team back with Crawford added. By my estimation you have Orlando, Boston, Cleveland, Toronto, Atlanta, Philly, and Washington as playoff teams. You are underestimating what the trade (Foye and Mike Miller) plus having a good coach (Flip Saunders) will do to turn that team around. Plus Gilbert Arenas should be back. That leaves the Bulls and Miami to fight it out. I’ll give you Philly though, they may take a step back but we’ll see.
"In essence, our guys are complementary-type players. We still have to find a mix that works and is balanced."-John Paxson
People complain about Rose's defense,
but Crawford is one of the worst defenders in the league, he has a terrible attitude and he barely shoots 40% from the field; plus he can’t pass or rebound to make up for it. He has the best handle in the league and he can hit the three from time to time so he gets minutes, but he is the ultimate example of all flash no substance. As I said with the Wiz, if Gilbert is healthy (as well as Caron and Haywood) and I see it, I will believe it. But that team won at most 45 games back in 03-04 and I really don’t think that adding Miller and Foye and losing Jordan will turn this team into a contender; a Flip Saunders coached Wizards team could 29th in defense pretty easily.
Orlando, Cleveland, Celtics, Atlanta, Chicago, Miami, Toronto, and Washington in that order.
by Super-Structure on Aug 5, 2009 4:37 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't know
I think we have reasons to see a better record. Remember after the trade, we won 60% of our games. We are better than Toronto and Atlanta.
So to go from 41 wins to near 50, isn’t a stretch, assuming Rose is a savior-type player.
Plus full years from Kirk, Luol, Fish, and Miller stabilizing the interior (somewhat).
my predictions
Kirk Hinrich will average about 13 points per game
Luol Deng will miss games with injuries
Noah will have few rebounds per game
Tryrus Thomas will be Tyrus Thomas
The two rookies will have little impact
Drrick Rose still will not be an all star maybe never will
jay williams will work at his bar
Ben Gordon will be as effective for Detroit as ben Wallace was for the Bulls
Miller and Salmons will have solid productive years
take it easy
why care about a bloggers grammar
no matter how much you hate me you still read and comment me
by angryandy on Aug 2, 2009 6:41 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Well, I don't care if Drrick Rose isn't ever an all-star
I’m only concerned about Derrick.
Things could be worse. We could have kept Boylan.
I'm only concerned about Jalene.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 2, 2009 7:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Just like Tyson Chandler Derrick is not a sure thing
take it easy
why care about a bloggers grammar
no matter how much you hate me you still read and comment me
what has the current staff done
they didn’t even try to teach Gordon they are intimidated by the players and big contracts They need a mike Ditka of basketball maybe the coach he played and was all state high school bb
take it easy
why care about a bloggers grammar
no matter how much you hate me you still read and comment me
i thought
skiles was a hard ass, did gordons defensive stats dip after skiles was shown the door (and shoved through it)
don't let the bed bugs bite
Look at what Harris, Nelson and Williams did during their rookie seasons.
He was already voted 13th on ESPN’s USA basketball poll, which could simply be seen as a popularity based ranking of NBA players; the only Eastern conference guard ahead of him was Wade.
by Super-Structure on Aug 2, 2009 8:55 PM CDT up reply actions
What can the Bulls do to get as angry as you?
Vinny Del Negro: Possibly the most unintentionally irritating last name in the history of last names [Hint: I can't for the life of me pronounce it correctly].
-Brandon Jennings: PG of the future!
Also:
Noah’s going to get more than ‘a few’ rebounds.
And I doubt that Ben Gordon is suddenly going to miss layups and be three or four steps slow on D while in the prime of his career.
Oh well. Optimism!
Vinny Del Negro: Possibly the most unintentionally irritating last name in the history of last names [Hint: I can't for the life of me pronounce it correctly].
-Brandon Jennings: PG of the future!
50 wins is a stretch. I really don’t see how we are better than PHI or WAS or ATL or Toronto…we are may even with those teams but not that much better.
46 wins is realistic. It will be somewhere between 41-46.
We are definitely better than PHI,
who have no distributor. I think we could be as good Atlanta (Noah over Horford, Rose over Bibby, healthy Deng over Smith, Tyrus of the last three months is about the same as Williams, Hinrich over Crawford), and I think people are seriously jumping the gun on Washington; they won 49 games once and other than that have been a .500 team, if Arenas is playing that like 60 minutes for those two guards they got, which doesn’t add 7 wins.
Either way, I said 47 wins not 50.
by Super-Structure on Aug 8, 2009 5:05 PM CDT up reply actions
We are definitely better than Toronto as well
That Charmin soft front line of Turkoglu, Bosh and Bargnani is going to get steamrolled all season long and to make matters worse they have Calderon doing his finest matador impressions in the back court. Watch a 36 year old Shaq eat these guys alive.
by WildlyRamified on Aug 12, 2009 9:26 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Toronto improved with Turkoglu and they basically got hit hard with injuries. ATL has had a better record than us the last 2-3 years. Same goes for Philly. Washington hasn’t had Arenas all year. I’m sorry I don’t see how we are significantly better than those teams, most of which have had better records than us the last few years.
I’m not downer but I’m not a total homer like you all. How did we improve this summer? Pargo? JJ and Taj?
Dengs return, Tyrus and Noah getting minutes all year,
Salmons and Miller for more than 29 games, improvement from Rose.
Also Atlanta plays to use Holiday and Williams at point (and maybe Watson), Washington was winning .500 with Arenas, and I have said numerous times that Atlanta will have a better record.
“Orlando, Cleveland, Celtics, Atlanta, Chicago, Miami, Toronto, and Washington in that order.”
Though I am not sure about Orlando seeing that they are losing Rashard for the first 10 games. Either way, the Bulls were about .500 playing most of the season with Larry Hughes; I assume they will be better without him.
by Super-Structure on Aug 13, 2009 10:57 PM CDT up reply actions
I HATE HIM!!
larry hughes made me punch walls last season
"One good thing about being wrong is the joy it brings to others"

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