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Ozzie Montana
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His points against Gordon aren't all that great.
Yeah, Rose isn’t the greatest creator, but he’s not a bad one either. As far as I could tell, Gordon was pretty much the only one who would create anything for Rose. You’d see Gordon draw defensive attention, and Rose go for the backdoor cut. Gordon setup Rose on the fastbreak a lot too. (Kirk Hinrich was never in such a position, because he doesn’t understand the concept of pushing the ball up court really fast to force a mismatch…he likes to take his sweet time dribbling up court, instead of pushing the ball up court).
Defensively, Gordon doesn’t affect Rose. Rose will guard the point guards regardless. They aren’t going to put Rose on a small forward to hide him, or something of that nature. The onus is on Rose to improve himself as a defender. Rose was just as bad of a defender with Hinrich or Salmons next to him last year.
I don’t understand the idea that the Bulls will be this great defensive team all of a sudden, just because Gordon’s gone. How often this year, did Gordon hit a big shot to put the Bulls up or tied, only to go to the bench and watch the “defensive lineup”, who would routinely give up a shot to the other team.
What made Gordon seem super clutch in 04-05 and 06-07? The Bulls would go get a stop on the other end, allowing Gordon to be the hero.
Look at Game 5. We should be talking about Ben Gordon hitting the game winner with ~16 seconds left. But…Celtics go back on the other end, and the Bulls’ “great defenders” give up a shot to Paul Piece.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eO6VxlSbQ90
Watch Gordon fight through the screen to keep out on Eddie House to avoid House getting a potential game winning three. But watch Rose and Salmons play tentatively, having Rose switch on Pierce, and hit the game winner.
I think Gordon doesn’t hold Rose back in anyway. Great complement. The only problem with Gordon is that he gives up size at the shooting guard spot. Nothing more. Skill and production wise, Gordon was a perfect fit next to Rose.
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by Andrew7 on Jul 3, 2009 1:16 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Disagree.
One of my biggest pet peeves with BG was his propensity for using up 4-7 seconds of a possession to iso someone (usually someone bigger, making dribble more and more just to try to get a shot off). Granted, he (suprisingly) made a bunch of those contested, bad shots, but, all the while, Rose is out behind the three-point line flat-footed like he’s Derek Fisher, not the best position to put your creating point guard in. Rose needs the ball in his hands, Gordon needed the ball. Bad fit.
Also, I think Rose missed out on a lot of assist numbers because of Gordon’s (and especially Kirk’s) habit of not shooting in catch-and-shoot situations. Often, both wouldnt be able to get the shot they wanted off the pick, so they would simply dribble it back out and either go one-on-one (BG) or try a sucky pick-and-roll (Kirk).
Defensively, nothing will change until the coach or his philosophy changes. They’ll continue to be caught in mismatches because Vinny will continue to stupidly switch all pick-and-rolls because he doesn’t know how to teach his bigs to show and recover.
My greatest enemy is my inner me
by TheCool1 on Jul 3, 2009 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Defensively nothing will change until..."
That is so discourageing. That is the spector that over shadows everything that is happening. Its almost as if “what’s the point” . Damn.
by hlac on Jul 3, 2009 6:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rose missed out on a lot of assists because nobody but Gordon could finish...
…on a regular basis. Figures. Finding a way to blame Gordon for something else.
And are you seriously bagging on Gordon for holding the ball for 4-7 seconds…when that’s EXACTLY what Salmons did plenty of last season and will do more of next season? In fact, everybody who you can consider to be a scorer does that. The reason Gordon dominated the ball is because Gordon FLAT OUT was the best option for the Bulls in most cases. Rose simply isn’t at that level yet. He will get there, but he isn’t yet. Gordon was a better option unless Rose was having one of those unstoppable games (game 1 against the Celtics for instance) and when that happened, Gordon gladly deferred to Rose.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Jul 6, 2009 1:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How is it people don't understand that BG was a great playmaker....
but only for himself. When did you see him dropping dimes to a slashing Rose? You will see that this year without BG.
by BigforkBullsFan on Jul 3, 2009 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol
by who?
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 3, 2009 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stop being such a jackass
Anthony Roberson.
The Chicago Bulls.....the more profitable Los Angeles Clippers.
by Ozzie Montana on Jul 3, 2009 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Are you telling me you don't see the remaining guards as better passers than BG?
by BigforkBullsFan on Jul 3, 2009 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who is the better passer?
Player A
TO Ast
04-05 2.3 2.0
05-06 2.3 3.0
06-07 3.0 3.6
07-08 2.1 3.0
08-09 2.4 3.4
Player B
TO Ast
04-05 0.9 2.0
05-06 1.5 2.7
06-07 1.5 3.2
07-08 2.1 2.6
08-09 1.7/2.3 2.0/3.7
Salmons had a better TO/Ast ratio with new teamates last year?!?
by BigforkBullsFan on Jul 3, 2009 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
dude, you bore me
I don’t know where you are getting your numbers from but -
Gordon had a higher ast% last year for the Bulls (15.9%) than Salmons (8.8%). His career ast% is also higher 17.3% to 15.6%, and his career turnover % is lower 12.7% to 14.9%.
Salmons did manage to only turnover the ball 9.7% of the time last season, but that doesn’t prove he will be able to create for Rose. If anything it proves he is more likely than Gordon to create for himself.
by Basketball Smurf on Jul 3, 2009 3:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's going to be the big shock for people. When they realize Salmons....
…also holds the ball out on the perimeter and looks for his own offense…as does any scorer at any level. I can’t believe what I read from some folks regarding this subject.
If they think Salmons won’t look for his own offense, they are in for a shock!!
by lexdiamonds0730 on Jul 6, 2009 2:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But Salmons is TALL
and that excuses all faults.
"Whoever was responsible for pulling that offer [to Ben Gordon] off the table...bring him before me and I'll punch him right in the face " - Frederick Pfeiffer
by Granny Waiters on Jul 6, 2009 2:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's some quality analysis
Too bad it’s irrelevant. And if we’re playing this game….
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/salmojo01.html
John Salmons played 38 minutes a game for the Bulls. He averaged 2 assists per game and 1.7 turnovers.
Gordon isn’t a great passer, we know this. Trying pass off Salmons as a better passer is an exercise in failure.
The Chicago Bulls.....the more profitable Los Angeles Clippers.
by Ozzie Montana on Jul 3, 2009 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you said creating plays for others
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 3, 2009 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
BigFork says that the only way to create plays for others is in getting assists.
Never mind that Arnovitz just had a pretty detailed explanation of how Ben Gordon DEFINITELY creates plays for others. I guess you can only create plays for Rose if you hit him running towards the basket, where he’s already beat his man instead of keeping the opposing defenders out of his way by being an actual offensive threat. Those don’t count.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Jul 3, 2009 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Rose doesn't have more assisted baskets next years I will come back and apologize...
and acknowledge that my logic – more assists less turnovers is indicative of better passing – is flawed.
by BigforkBullsFan on Jul 3, 2009 4:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your logic that passing is the only way to create for teammates is flawed.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Jul 4, 2009 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't care who the player being discussed is
most of the time the effect that one player leaving a team has on another player’s performance is usually way overstated. Most likely Derrick’s stats will increase and he will be even better next year. Now, the team probably won’t be, but I’m not worried about D Rose.
"That's a spicy meatball-a!" - Vinny Del Negro
by Juiceboxjerry on Jul 3, 2009 3:27 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
i agree with this
Rose’s development wasn’t hindered by Gordon, and he won’t have more problems because Gordon is gone. Rose will improve because that it what 2nd year players do, they improve. The team unfortunately, is unlikely to match his improvement though.
by Basketball Smurf on Jul 3, 2009 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rose will be hindered.
There is a little story that shows how Rose will be hindered, Fred Pfeiffer originally said it on Bullseye.
Now for this stories sake, I will change the names because I have no idea who Fred was talking about on that show.
But there is this great player from Iowa, high school player, Kirk. He is just one of the best high school basketball players out there and can take anyone off the dribble and get to the rim to score. He’s just amazing.
Put Kirk on a football field on the 20 yard line, and put a basket in place of the goal post, and a defender between Kirk and the basket, and there isn’t a player out there who is going to stop Kirk from getting to the basket.
Now put the basket at the end of a bowling lane, and Kirk at the start of the lane, and a defender between him and the basket. There isn’t a player out there who isn’t going to be able to stop Kirk from getting to the basket.
Great three point shooting creates a football field for penetration. Take away that three point shooting, and you have a bowling lane to work with for penetration.
Chicago Bulls Blog and Forums. NBA Power Rankings.
by Andrew7 on Jul 3, 2009 5:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Salmons has proven to be a good enough perimeter shooter
that the difference will not be that drastic at all. It’s not like Ben Gordon was the only player in the league that teams made sure they keep a close eye on from beyond the arc.
"That's a spicy meatball-a!" - Vinny Del Negro
by Juiceboxjerry on Jul 3, 2009 5:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Salmons got a lot of wide open threes.
And before last year, Salmons had a career best 12.5 PPG and career best 35.7 3PT%.
It’s very possible, that last year an anomaly for Salmons.
Chicago Bulls Blog and Forums. NBA Power Rankings.
by Andrew7 on Jul 3, 2009 6:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
man this photo is crushing my soul!
Lighting and Thunder.
by SoulEater7 on Jul 3, 2009 4:11 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Ha ha
This still just seems completely wrong and not just talking about the holding hands comment. I never even thought about Gordon being anywhere but in Chicago I wish Rose could of grown with him.
by Camry on Jul 3, 2009 7:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously.
:(
Vinny Del Negro Offensive Gameplan, Part 1
-When there's less than 30 seconds left in the game, that's me with my hands cupped around my mouth yelling.
"BEN! SHOOT! SHOOOOTTTT!!! WHY AREN'T YOU LISTENING TO ME?!?"
-This segues nicely into my Timeout Management classes - order now!
by Prevenge on Jul 5, 2009 11:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
nice article
Thought interesting last paragraph.
Rose is a transcendent talent with incredible court vision and sharp instincts. He can improvise with precision — a rare gift. But even a magician needs props, and Rose lost his best aide in Gordon. It’s possible Rose could endure a very rough sophomore campaign with the Bulls. If he does, it might say a lot more about his team’s roster than it does any lack of resolve on Rose’s part.
by swede2287 on Jul 3, 2009 5:43 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
it means
Rose has plenty of opportunies to get offensive board once he pass the ball to his teammates. Believe it or not, this is the most important area for Rose to get good at in this summer.
by Calvin X on Jul 4, 2009 1:17 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Rose and Gordon had the potential to be a top 3 backcourt in the NBA.
Rose has the tools to be the best PG in the league…with some seasoning of course. He has EVERYTHING physically that Deron Williams possesses and can learn to probe the way Chris Paul did. But the main ingredient for success for Rose is OPEN SPACE and Gordon afforded him that in a major way. NO GUARD IN THE LEAGUE will ever leave Ben Gordon to double team anyone else. So what we will see more of is that double off the pick and roll…UNLESS we find some bigs that can put the ball in the hole.
Back to my original point though, Rose and Gordon were a top 6 or 7 backcourt by the time the season ended. Next year they would have been a top 5 backcourt. They could easily have accumulated 45 – 50 pts, 12-15 assts between them. Gordon was NEVER the problem people made him out to be. More often than not, the problem was the we got no offense from anywhere else. IF the Bulls had a post threat (not Drew Gooden…speaking of a guy who NEVER passed the ball) then the game would have been so much easier for Rose and Gordon both.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Jul 6, 2009 2:22 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Top 5 backcourt offensively....bottom 5 backcourt defensively
As many points Ben would score he would give up and then some….good riddens…he is not worth 11 mill and Detroit will soon see that
CHICAGO MANE!!!!
by YEP on Jul 9, 2009 6:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
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