Reinsdorf interview reaction: which stage was depression again?

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 22, 2009 9:44 PM CDT Comment 123 comments

This Reinsdorf interview should've gotten me more fired up than it actually did. It was so much bullshit, with degrees varying between retroactive reasoning to outright lying. Or exposing his subordinates statements as outright lies. And maybe this is the intentionally skillful work of the Chairman, but as a result I don't even want to go through and point it all out specifically.

But to generalize, the interview itself was a nice microcosm of the trouble with the Bulls' leadership structure. Reinsdorf says he leaves the evaluations ultimately to Paxson and Forman when pressed on "The novice" coach (Vinny Del Novice? Eh, we'll work something out on that quote...) , but was all too happy to give his evaluations of the roster, culminating in a bizarre (or spiteful if you believe a more sinister motive) slagging of the departed Ben Gordon.

And I think that's the issue with his ownership style, he claims to let the basketball people do the work, but then picks and chooses when to meddle in the team-building, whether it be who to give contract extensions to, or the coaching search, or (reportedly) being the main driver behind the Ben Wallace acquisition. It's like Reinsdorf wants it both ways: the credit for the financial might of the team, yet he can also meddle in personnel and other aspects that his basketball people should be solely in charge of. If he's going to be so stingy on the tax, let the basketball people (and cap wizards) handle everything. If you want to play along, be a wacky spender like Jerry Buss or Mark Cuban to 'own your mistakes' (as 'dorf put it), spending your way out of them if necessary.

Instead we get this mess where every situation has varying degrees of ownership involvement, just like every answer given in the interview was a varying degree of spin. And it's impossible to go after specifics when correlating his answers to the actual actions of the team, since we have no idea how deep his hands are in each situation.

It's not as if he's the worst owner in the game, on a Heisley or Sterling level. But the especially 'cheap' owners are at least easy to figure out. Reinsdorf has bankrolled some high-payroll teams, but seems extremely cautious to go the extra step, and worse yet, the steps he does take are sourced by confounding reasoning (that we mostly have to guess). Unfortunately I doubt there's much of a pattern in his involvement at all, and thus why what the Bulls do seems to have no general direction.

I'll move on eventually to how the 2009-10 season of water-treading needs to work...but this is a cloud looming over everything, and the worst part is it's nearly impossible to figure out.

5 recs | Comment 123 comments | Share

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

I knew you could do it!

Link

After this interview he can go back to hiding in his White Sox owners box. Turn the day-to-day responsibilities back over to the yes men.

by nateroth on Jul 22, 2009 10:13 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

After I read this I think..

how bad it would have really been had they not gotten lucky and landed Derrick Rose. So as awesome as getting the number one pick was… he uses it against us. Derrick is both a blessing and a curse because now JR can just prop him up and walk away while we buy nachos and complain about not getting 100 points and missing out on cheap american processed food…. all while he smokes his cigars in some Arizona mansion and then polishes his thick glasses with a handkerchief that he also blows his nose in. Punk ass.

by SoulEater7 on Jul 22, 2009 10:27 PM CDT reply actions 7 recs

do i sense a little anger ??????

I second this motion that JR is a punk ass !!!!! and i may add the bitch! punk ass bitch

by bears rock on Jul 22, 2009 10:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I was going to add the bitch but I didn't wanna come off so...

You know?

by SoulEater7 on Jul 22, 2009 10:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

tempestuously.

But hell yes, I’m fucking mad! I’m tired of his crusty d-bag ass. I could barely muster typing anything it’s pissing me off so much.

by SoulEater7 on Jul 22, 2009 10:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Rec'ed for the hidden message.

"Whoever was responsible for pulling that offer [to Ben Gordon] off the table...bring him before me and I'll punch him right in the face " - Frederick Pfeiffer

by Granny Waiters on Jul 22, 2009 10:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't get it.

Heap?

Things could be worse. We could have kept Boylan.

by stupidgenius on Jul 23, 2009 7:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You missed the bolded "c" in "cigars".

"Whoever was responsible for pulling that offer [to Ben Gordon] off the table...bring him before me and I'll punch him right in the face " - Frederick Pfeiffer

by Granny Waiters on Jul 23, 2009 8:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ohhhhhh

Now I get it. rec’d!

Things could be worse. We could have kept Boylan.

by stupidgenius on Jul 23, 2009 8:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

jreinsdorf@bulls.com

by PricanStar on Jul 23, 2009 10:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

How did I miss that message the first time!?

pretty awesome.

by Rose Colored Goggles on Jul 23, 2009 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

well played sir

It’s kind of annoying when a team isn’t bad enough to boycott but not good enough to warrant the sell-outs that it will surely get in such a big market. What are we to do but hope JR decides that being really good will pay off even more long term? ‘Cause he surely won’t sacrifice profits for wins.

"Stay thirsty my friends" - the most interesting man in the world, giving the bulls a pregame peptalk

by Othella on Jul 23, 2009 9:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

How can you be depressed at viewing someone who's managed to almost perfectly mold himself into Montgomery Burns in real life?

But hey, I really like the Simpsons, and, I guess, performance art.

In any case, he was way nicer to Gordon on the way out than he was to Horace Grant :)

BullsTwo

by Sports2 on Jul 22, 2009 10:57 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

preach…chuuch…tabernacle

The only way you can avoid making a mistake is not to make a decision . Our Owner´s philosophy-

by Belize on Jul 22, 2009 10:59 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I didn't post one comment in the original JR interview post

simply because I was too mad to post anything…nothing I said would’ve made sense, and probably would’ve been accompanied by several curse words.

I still don’t have much to say about it, because it’s just too frustrating. What do you do when your all-time favorite team is owned by such a douche? For the past 10 years this one person has managed to suck almost every fiber of enjoyment that I get out of watching my favorite team.

It’s no longer fun to watch the Bulls, it’s now a chore. I watch every game thinking about how much one person has ruined a good thing. I watch every game hating the fact that our team is owned by a person who could care less about his “product”, other than how much income they pull in. I watch every game remembering that we have an owner who would trade in every title the franchise has for just one title with his other baby. He later tried to clean it up, but too little, too late. You said it, you meant it.

I watch every game thinking how he over values (and over pays) his “kids”, but treats other players like little step children. I watch every game wondering why other owners can be seen at every single game, but our owner is only seen maybe once or twice in an entire season. I watch every game looking at the complete mediocrity in coaching and playing, yet an owner who will do nothing about it. Not to mention how these same bad decisions have no blame attached to them (“If there’s one person that is not responsible for what’s going on right now, it’s John Paxson”).

I watch every game knowing that there is absolutely NOTHING that can or will be done about the current situation. We must be realistic, this franchise will be stuck running in place until a change at the top takes place. That will NOT happen anytime soon. I’m not wishing anything on anyone, but the Dorf isn’t going to give up the reigns until he dies…that’s just being real.

My only solace is to come to Blog A Bull to bitch, moan, cry, and complain. Even when I do that, I wake up the next morning with the same damn problem.

by NormVanBeer on Jul 22, 2009 11:03 PM CDT reply actions 9 recs

What do you do when your all-time favorite team is owned by such a douche?

priceless!

The only way you can avoid making a mistake is not to make a decision . Our Owner´s philosophy-

by Belize on Jul 22, 2009 11:34 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs

Owners dont need to be seen at games.

The fact Jerry isnt visible on the comcast produced Bulls games doesnt matter one bit. I’d rather have Jerry invisible than Mark Cuban being an idiot eye sore 10/82 games a season. Dallas has no championships during his run.

Which sucessul owners have been front and center in sports over the years?…. the Rooney family not really, Kraft has, Steinbrenner(family) is visible but the Yankees are on a Bulls type drought after their dominance in late 90s. Jerry Jones has done great lately with all Dallas’s superbowls since….96.
Jerry isnt visible for the Sox either and they have 3 playoffs and 1 Title since 2000.

The Bulls are in year one of a rebuilding program that started with Rose. I think the Boston-Bullls series clouded some peoples memories that the Bulls are basically in 1985 MJ’s second year. I remember thinking that the entire roster minus Rose needs to be gone by the time the Bulls are in the finals again. The NBA can have quick fix champions- Boston…. but it also can take 5 years Dwight Howards Magic Rookie roster had Dwight®, Jameer®, and Heido.

The only time I can really see being mad at Jerry is next August if they fail during free agency…. then peope can blame him for his never fading trust in Pax to make a big signing or deal.

by Jscho316 on Jul 23, 2009 9:31 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs

by my math

were in year 11 of our “rebuilding program.”

by Calogero on Jul 23, 2009 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree that owners don't need to be visible

but at least with a guy like Steinbrenner, you know exactly what he wants and that’s to win every single year. Even though the Yankees haven’t won in a while, they have been a contender at least and have a realistic shot every year to win it.

by bigballa10 on Jul 23, 2009 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'd take Cuban's overexposure over Jerry's passive aggressiveness any day.

Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.

by cranscape on Jul 23, 2009 7:31 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs

This thinking is bullshit

At least the Mavs made the Finals only like 3 years ago and they are serious contenders every year.

JR sucks, I’d rather have a clown that cares about the team. Cuban says dumb things but at least he cares about winning not the bottom line.

by C Smoove on Jul 24, 2009 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

They Yankee's dynasty

in the 90’s was directly correlated with the time Stienbrener was forced to stop melding in the team. I don’t remember the exact incident, but I know he was banned from daily operations of the club by MLB at some point, and during that ban the org developed their farm system and laid the groundwork for their run at WS titles. When his team finally lost a WS again, he started forcing Cashman to acquire over the hill players who cost a fortune… not unlike the Ben Wallace acquisition.

When owners interfere, bad things generally happen to your team.

by 72-10 on Jul 29, 2009 10:20 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs

a meddling owner

is completely different from an enthusiastic owner. We’re asking JR to care a little bit, not to meddle. The two CAN be done seperate of each other…

left shark - "Kirk needs to go and join Ben Gordon and L Deng somewhere else trade Deng and Hinrich they no good"

by NormVanBeer on Jul 29, 2009 4:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

To borrow a Simmons phrase

Ladies and Gentlemen, Your Chicago Bulls!!

The really bad part is that young Reinsdorf is already taking over some of the reins and will be fully in charge soon enough. Should be an interesting battle against Joey Buss.

by nateroth on Jul 23, 2009 9:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Does JR have any sons named Rocky?

I know he has one named Kurt, er a, Kirk.

by M 80 on Jul 23, 2009 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You do realize

that calling JR a douche is doing a disservice to douches everywhere.

by Denny Crane on Jul 23, 2009 9:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Reinsdorf has always been this way with the Bulls.

Look at how he handled the situation with Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, and Jackson. He had a threepeat team, that wanted to go for four in a row. But because Reinsdorf disliked Jackson, he refused to re-sign him. Which caused Jordan to retire, Rodman to bail, and unfortunately for Pippen, he was still under contract and stuck there.

by luvs2drnk on Jul 23, 2009 12:23 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

That's actually completely false

But, I still dislike Reinsdorf.

The Chicago Bulls.....the more profitable Los Angeles Clippers.

by Ozzie Montana on Jul 23, 2009 12:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Really?

Do you plan to elaborate, or do you just make remarks without justification? It was highly publicized that Krause and Reinsdorf had a beef with Jackson. The only reason Jackson was still around was because Jordan refused to play for another coach.

by luvs2drnk on Jul 23, 2009 1:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

As with many things Dorf, the key concept, I think is loyalty

specifically of the misplaced variety.

BullsTwo

by Sports2 on Jul 23, 2009 6:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Reinsdorf had no beef with anyone, all he wanted was profitability

It was Krause and Phil who let petty differences break the team apart. S2 mentioned it below, JR was just being loyal to Krause, and it took him a few years to realize that was a mistake.

Now, he just has a patsy who can make most decisions, but when serious money starts being thrown around, Reinsdorf is in the middle of team affairs. For a guy who has explicitly stated over the years he doesn’t really care about the Bulls like he does the White Sox, this is pretty messed up.

The Chicago Bulls.....the more profitable Los Angeles Clippers.

by Ozzie Montana on Jul 23, 2009 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well, I think it goes a little bit beyond that

Reinsdorf certainly had misplaced loyalty to Krause, but there were all manner of petty differences that Reinsdorf was right in the thick of during the dynasty years. Reinsdorf was right in the middle of several infamous contract negotiations and issues. His various nuttiness with BJ Armstrong, Horace Grant, Jackson and MJ himself has been pretty well chronicled if you read some of the books about the dynasty.

Nor would I say it was simply “petty differences between Krause and Phil”. That might have been an arguable view at the time, but history since has settled beyond much dispute, I think, that Jackson is historically good at what he does and Krause eagerly captained the team on the road to ruin. Of course they were going to have differences, but that’s like saying I’m partially to blame for having “differences” with someone who came up and suggested I let them repeatedly take a baseball bat to my groin.

BullsTwo

by Sports2 on Jul 23, 2009 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

luvs2drnk I see much substance in your words...

Yet on the brighter side, I see VDN as one of the brightest personalities to
to come into the Bulls organization in years. I’m not sure how he will evenually
turn out as a NBA coach but because Dorf has somewhat expressed public dislikes for him.
That in it self is a proclamation of man who isn’t interested in being controlled by drama queen Jery Reinsdorf (must like Jackson, Jordan, Pippen, Grant and Ben Gordon)

Still Vinny states “I’m the coach” I don’t know about you guys but I gotta admire
this dude’s personality because he has to deal with triple headed “bitch” Paxson, press secretary Gar and drama queen Dorf. Maybe as a recent rookie coach he needs more experience which is only reasonable.

VDN will be snatched up quickly (a young coach with potential, some experience and not a retread) after Dorf fires him, and get a good payday to coach elsewhere.

"I tried being reasonable, I didn't like it."
"Go ahead, make my day"
"We boil at different degrees"
"A good man always knows his limitations"
"You've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?"

by exult463 on Jul 23, 2009 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs

now that's an angle I had not considered

USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 23, 2009 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Word.

by Rose Colored Goggles on Jul 23, 2009 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

So far I don't think any of the players have thrown him under the bus.

Not to any level JR has at least. Maybe guys like him.

Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.

by cranscape on Jul 23, 2009 7:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You're talking about a guy who had a starting lineup of

Rose-Gordon-Hughes-Thabo-Gooden once.

Things could be worse. We could have kept Boylan.

by stupidgenius on Jul 23, 2009 7:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

That lineup has serious flaws...

A 4 guard lineup??? So who’s playing PF? Considering your next tallest player after the 6’10" Gooden is the 6’5" Hughes and Sefolosha. Hell, 6’5" is small even for a SF. I’m also pretty sure this was never a starting line-up.

by luvs2drnk on Jul 23, 2009 11:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Gooden is 6'10"

like BG is 6’3"

by Rose Colored Goggles on Jul 23, 2009 11:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

lol @ bg being 6´3´´

maybe on a ladder

The only way you can avoid making a mistake is not to make a decision . Our Owner´s philosophy-

by Belize on Jul 24, 2009 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Or, in shoes (dammit why do I keep replying to these comments?)

The Chicago Bulls.....the more profitable Los Angeles Clippers.

by Ozzie Montana on Jul 24, 2009 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

VDN used it against Golden State during the circus trip.

It was the game right after the massacre that was our game against Portland. Amazingly enough, we actually won the game.

Things could be worse. We could have kept Boylan.

by stupidgenius on Jul 24, 2009 12:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

If there's any team in the league

To try something like that lineup though it’s Golden State. Take his Nellieball and try to Nellize your team to out Nellie Nellie…

Thurston Moore is a rock god

by majoyenrac on Jul 24, 2009 8:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

must give credit where credit is due

Well said, I always thought this as well. Now hopefully he derives a good gameplan to go with his winning attitude.

"Stay thirsty my friends" - the most interesting man in the world, giving the bulls a pregame peptalk

by Othella on Jul 23, 2009 9:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

How come

whenever I see Reinsdorf, all I can think of is Citizen Kane. A crusty, arrogant, unloveable man who despite all his success and influence, is not happy with the way his life turned out.

I can just imagine the chairman on his deathbed, alone in a decrepit mansion surrounded by pictures of Harold Baines and Will Purdue, clutching a kids-sized Brooklyn Dodgers jersey and muttering “Derrick Rose”

by JoNo's Swag on Jul 23, 2009 2:38 AM CDT reply actions 2 recs

That's the funniest thing I've read in quite a while! Good shot.

by JayDangles on Jul 27, 2009 6:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

edit:

surrounded by pictures of Harold Baines, Will Purdue and cap relief

by JoNo's Swag on Jul 23, 2009 2:40 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

And the stack of money from Geico ads

“Look at all the money I’ve saved!”

Vinny Del Negro Offensive Gameplan, Part 1
-When there's less than 30 seconds left in the game, that's me with my hands cupped around my mouth yelling.
"BEN! SHOOT! SHOOOOTTTT!!! WHY AREN'T YOU LISTENING TO ME?!?"
-This segues nicely into my Timeout Management classes - order now!

by Prevenge on Jul 23, 2009 3:01 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs

QUIT BUYING THE DAMN TICKETS!

always a great contribution.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 17, 2009 8:33 AM PST

by hhirb on Jul 23, 2009 5:53 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs

cmon thats no fun

by JockstrapNoah on Jul 23, 2009 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

If you enjoy basketball

and the Bulls, then you should go. It is entertainment, just like this blog…. well, the blog is more therapy for me when I’m pissed off at the team!

I’ve been on vacation from work for 10 days so I’m probably over optimistic, but I think things are not going to be as doom and gloom as everyone thinks. I’m pissed Ben is gone, but we’ll have a good club next year, and one that is fun to watch. Sure beats the Tim Floyd days! We’ll probably make the playoffs, and have a ton of good trade chips to use at the deadline. If nothing happens, then we can cash in the contracts and play the free agent lotto. The future is not bleak, on the contrary, we have a good team this year with the potential to be great in the not so distant future!

by 72-10 on Jul 29, 2009 10:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Is this all about Ben Gordon?

What else has Reinsdorf done since the Bulls have returned to partial relevance to merit the label of cheap?

If we have a chance to sign someone next year and we don’t, I will be right behind you; but so far he hasn’t really done anything aside from pulling an offer—which I here is happening to Odom.

by Super-Structure on Jul 23, 2009 6:02 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Err... isn't the long stretch of complete irrelevance prior to the current "return to partial relevance" also evidence?

I dunno how old you are, but obviously you missed out on the Dragan Tarlac era.

And Jerry Krause, Phil Jackson, etc.

Reinsdorf amazingly calling a press conference to say that he’d made a contract offer to the departing Horace Grant, but that he was disloyal, had lied about injuries to sit out games, and had, really, cost the Bulls a championship.

No, it’s not all about Ben Gordon at all. It’s about the fact that Reinsdorf is, while I’m sure a very good person in a particular set of ways, also a paranoid, deceitful, illogical and overly emotional child who, in practice, completely evades any sense of responsibility for his decisions.

BullsTwo

by Sports2 on Jul 23, 2009 6:58 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs

I don't need the history lesson.

I need a competent argument. Reinsdorf has spent money on this team, it is a fact. Those people he chooses not to spend on, are treated like shit and I will not argue that. But he isn’t cheap. He has signed some contracts, we have gotten to the playoffs and soon we will get further. There just isn’t sufficient evidence for all this doom and gloom. I am glad we haven’t spent the last couple years mired in bad contracts as the Knicks have been.

by Super-Structure on Jul 23, 2009 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

well there's cheap and there's cheap

he’s not Grizzlies or Thunder cheap, but being content to scale back payroll after the Rose miracle is a form of cheapness as well.

USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 23, 2009 4:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

What the hell. Various thoughts that come to mind after reading your post.

1. yfBB didn’t premise the original post solely on the cheapness of Reinsdorf. Nor did my reply.
2. We have spent the last couple years mired in bad contracts. Ben Wallace. Andres Nocioni. Luol Deng ought to be considered one, not because he sucks as a player, but because there’s ample evidence that he constituted an injury risk before signing the contract (enough so that the league’s insurance carrier wouldn’t sign his contract… yet people say we couldn’t even spend $2M trying out DeJuan Blair).
3. Over half the teams in the league get to the playoffs. That’s no real accomplishment if you have even moderate standards of success.
4. As I pointed out, by even those moderate standards, the Bulls have been absolutely terrible for most of the 11 seasons since MJ left. They made the playoffs 4 of 11 times and have won 38% of their games.
5. Speaking of evidence, I don’t see a lot of evidence to suggest they’ll be advancing in the playoffs anytime soon.

BullsTwo

by Sports2 on Jul 23, 2009 4:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think the evidence is self-evident

they have a player with no roof, a ton of cap space when there will be numerous available players and a history of signing contracts (good or bad). Hindsight truly is 20/20; people were not complaining about signing Wallace when they did, or Nocioni, and only a few complained with Deng. I also think the constant rehashing of Blair is absurd, comparing Deng who was arguably top 5-7 at his position when he was signed to some college player is a huge stretch.

The Bulls sucked, true. The Bulls made some awful signings, also true. But is there any example of something bad happening to the team at this moment? Absolutely not. I think anyone who watched the Bulls play would prefer to have Gordon on the team; but not signing him is not cheapness and it isn’t subversive or manipulative, it was just a decision.

by Super-Structure on Jul 23, 2009 6:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

"Hindsight truly is 20/20"

Foresight is what they’re paid (very well) for.

USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 23, 2009 7:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

"I think the evidence is self-evident"

Well, that stops the conversation cold.

Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.

by cranscape on Jul 23, 2009 7:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

"self-evident" ... "incoherent" ... same difference

BullsTwo

by Sports2 on Jul 23, 2009 8:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

a ton of cap space?

were gonna have to move some contracts for “a ton.” right now it’s looking very much like we won’t even have enough to offer a max deal

by Calogero on Jul 24, 2009 10:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

If the goal is partial relevance that's sad

but they went backward from there with the loss of Gordon.

They are stealing your money!

always a great contribution.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 17, 2009 8:33 AM PST

by hhirb on Jul 23, 2009 7:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Shut up

I don’t get personal generally, but shut up. Sports are entertainment, not life. I’ll do what I want with my own money and time. If you want to boycott the Bulls, go for it, but don’t tell others what to do. They’re not “stealing” our money any more than the Cubs, Sox, or Bears are. It’s not easy winning titles (which doesn’t excuse the Bulls’ mistakes), so don’t act like if they’re not contenders that there’s some sort of conspiracy to commit larceny.

by kozzer on Jul 23, 2009 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The above is directed to hhirb in particular

because every post the guy makes is the same damn thing.

by kozzer on Jul 23, 2009 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Boy that's great company they're in--a real yardstick for greatness!!

At least the Sox won once in the last 20+ years. You left off the Black Hawks.

Suckers!!!!!!

always a great contribution.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 17, 2009 8:33 AM PST

by hhirb on Jul 24, 2009 9:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Odom will be back

because unlike the Bulls, the Lakers have a superstar that has enough clout to get what he wants. He wants Odom back for another championship run and I think he’ll get it.

by bigballa10 on Jul 23, 2009 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Because he's old and crusty looking (Reinsdorf) doesn't remove that fact that he's the queen of all drama queens

Who amuses himself with his audacy!

by exult463 on Jul 23, 2009 10:15 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Another view

Partly because of boredom from the lack of basketball news during the summer I look at other newspapers and through other SBNation blogs. There is a general theme that emerges. A disdain for the GM. I thought Kahn in Minnosota got a brief honeymoon until Rubio delayed his going to MN for two years. Kahn went from a genious to jerk over-night. Now Rubio may be on the way to MN. Kahn has returned to the genious category. Being President of Basketball operations/ General Manger is not a popular job. I remember thinking Krause was the biggest idiot. He never would answer questions but if you look at some of his moves that I hated in retrospect some were not as bad as I assumed. I thought trading Ron Artest was the dumbest trade imaginable. I tried to contact Jerry Krause via every means i could to protest. What was not clear at the time was how crazy Artest really was. Krause knew it but I had no clue. Some moves I liked turned out to be terrible. I thought trading Brand for the pick to get Chandler was very risky but had the potential to make the Bulls relevant again. I believed Chandler and Curry could become dominating players leading to another championship run. Wow was I wrong.

So why are the GMs/owners so disliked. There is the obvious answer that 1 of 30 fans of NBA teams per year are really happy. The odds are stacked up against you. I also think there is much happining behind closed doors regardng trades and player assessments that is kept from the public. The Internet, Blogs, Twitter,etc. are somewhat breaking through this code of silence. For a NBA team to operate effectively they need to keep their strategy close to the vest. You do not want your players to know they are in multiple trade scenarios. You don’t want other teams or players to know your evaluation of players. My perception is some players and/or their agents can be incredibly stupid, irritating and inappropriately value their services. It is important to keep that hidden for multiple reasons. Players/agents need to develop trust to negotiate. The ugly side of this business is best kept from the public. It isn’t good PR for the NBA to have know how obnoxious some of the players/ agents can be. So GMs have to report the tip of the iceberg when we fans get the view of the players and agents without really knowing how inappropriate the players or agents have been. I am not trying to ignore criticism of Reinsdorf etc. However, you can criticize Reinsdorf meddling into the D’Antoni negotiations. From my viewpoint I do not believe the final outcome of who is better for the Bulls VDN or D’Anoni can yet be made. The more I see of what D’Anoni can do without Nash, Stoudemire, Marion the less impressed I am with D’Antoni. We may argue two or three years from now that D’Antoni would have set back Rose and the Bulls years by his inability to develop a defensive minded team. The judgement is out on this.

Winning in this league over a long period of time is incredibly difficult. Dumars has gone from a genius to a jerk in two years. Walsh, the Knick savior is heavily criticized. The same can be said for most of the leagues GM. Atlanta, Toronto, the great Larry Bird, etc have been or are being ripped apart. There appears to be certain inherent aspects of running an NBA team, including the importance of secrecy as well as the odds against you that ferments fan discontent and the inevitably short-term piling on.

by chgobr on Jul 23, 2009 10:51 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs

They didn't even get a bag of peanuts

for their leading scorer—a guy who could hit big shots in the playoffs.

Indefensible!

always a great contribution.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 17, 2009 8:33 AM PST

by hhirb on Jul 23, 2009 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

But did we want it

We weren’t going to get a D. Wade, for Gordon. Perhaps we could have traded him and Tyrus for Boozer, but I think that’s worse off for us than just keeping Tyrus and going the one year with the 2 new pieces.

I don’t like that we let BG go for nothing. In retrospect we should have traded him 2 years ago or at least last year….but this year I’d rather play the 2010 wild card than be saddled with ultimately 2 Dengish type players for 40-45% of our cap (Gordon wouldn’t net us a superstar, BG and Deng are in the grand scheme of it fairly similar in overall effectiveness and having 2 of them for that kind of money’s huge, esp with the best FA class seemingly of all time on the horizon.

I think we’ll be ok without BG. I think we’d be of course better next year with BG, but if we’re able to work out a deal for a superstar, I’ll say this was a better deal than it’s looking right now….a much better deal for Chicago to let him walk.

With BG in tow and Deng’s seemingly tough to trade salary for 2 more years (he might be tradable in Feb 2011 at the earliest) we likely would just be treading the 4th to 9th seed train forever…

It was a tough decision, but ultimately really the let BG walk decision was made when we decided to pay Deng. That decision is done and right now the timing is making it rough….but I have faith Luol can bounce back to at least be worth $9-10M a year of his $12M a year salary (and considering his age, that probably factors the rest of it)…

Thurston Moore is a rock god

by majoyenrac on Jul 23, 2009 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs

You have got to get over Toni Kukoc...

That was so 10 years ago…

" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem

is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger

by Dionysus2.0 on Jul 23, 2009 8:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The difference is

you want to be absolutely, positively certain that your owner/GM/front office is committed to winning. Reinsdorf has never shown that, even when his team was winning during the second three-peat.

After the relative progress that was made this past year, the jaw-droppingly talented PG that fell into our laps, the fun playoff series, the commentators who looked at the Bulls as a team on the rise………..I was hoping to see a strong commitment to winning in 09-10 from the Bulls. Instead we get two rookies and god-damned Jannero Pargo, while losing Gordon for nothing. But that gets us only to your “criticism of the front office” point.

What’s much, much worse are the comments from the team owner in this article—that everything is fine, everything makes sense, we’re doing things the right way, things are unfolding exactly how I thought they would, Gordon wasn’t going to play anyway, and all the rest of the crap. It’s a kick to the nuts to have to listen to this when you really care about the team. He doesn’t want to win, he wants to make money doing things his way with his guys, and if you don’t like it, tough. He just doesn’t care as much as we do.

by nateroth on Jul 23, 2009 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Xactly!

always a great contribution.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 17, 2009 8:33 AM PST

by hhirb on Jul 23, 2009 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

How many NBA owners have been more sucessful via winning championsihips, than Reinsdorf?

Yes you can argue the luck of obtaining MJ. MN had KG and never made the NBA finals. Again, I’m not being a Reinsdorf apologist here. The fact is potentially 29 of the 30 teams have a fan base not happy with the results last year. The need for secrecy and confidentiality is a setup for fans to dislike the GM/owners. Good GM/owners can make excellent long-term moves that negatively impact the short-term further inflaming fans. All of this makes it hard for the GM/owners to look good to fans. Go through SBNation blogs and it is surprising the intense dislike bloggers have toward their GM/owners.

by chgobr on Jul 23, 2009 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think your point is a good one

in that everybody questions front office moves, and it’s OK to either bash or to defend this offseason (Gordon would have been overpaid, we can now make a real run in 2010, etc.) That’s what is fun about sports. I also think that you make a good point that we don’t know everything that’s going on.

My point was that I don’t believe what the owner says, and I think he has no interest in going all out to put a winning team together. If it happens, great (….what can I say, I’m a lucky guy, but you need luck…..) but he isn’t driven to win.

He didn’t have a plan for Gordon, he doesn’t have a plan for building a good team that marquee free agents will want to play for, he justifies all of the team’s bad moves because at the end of the day he’s still making money and not looking like a Dolan-esque fool.

But are we any closer to winning now than we were 3 years ago? 5 years ago? 10? Will we be there in another 3 years? Doesn’t look that way to me, and he isn’t all that bothered by that fact.

by nateroth on Jul 23, 2009 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Without MJ they would have ZERO

always a great contribution.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 17, 2009 8:33 AM PST

by hhirb on Jul 23, 2009 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pippen

Was good enough to secure one or two….they almost and probably should have made the finals the first year post MJ, and the next year MJ came back a bit out of shape and sorts and hurt them in the playoffs against the Magic…

Thurston Moore is a rock god

by majoyenrac on Jul 23, 2009 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

One day I hope to visit 'majoyenrac world'

USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 23, 2009 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs

It's a fun place well besides the boring controller tediousness...

Believe you me…

But yeah I’m a firm believer that the Bulls with Pippen would have won at least one, the Bulls without Pippen but with Jordan and the rest would have won at least 4, and the Bulls with the 2 obviously won 6….

Thurston Moore is a rock god

by majoyenrac on Jul 23, 2009 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

BTW

I like the controller tediousness….but there are times when things calc that are rough.

Thurston Moore is a rock god

by majoyenrac on Jul 23, 2009 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

28 teams

blazer fans are freakin scary….always goody good good….(although lately ive seen some uprisings in thier ranks….slowly they will begin to fall…muahahahaha)

On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!

by piccolomair on Jul 23, 2009 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs

Ha ha

good point but they’ve got a lot to be happy about. They have a legit star player (Roy), a potential all star pf (Aldridge), cap space, an owner who wants to win and will spend money to do so, an active gm and an excellent coach. Oh I forgot about Greg Oden, a great center prospect who struggled last year a bit but given time, may develop into an all star (or maybe not). Yeah their giddiness disgusts me too now that you mention it lol.

by bigballa10 on Jul 23, 2009 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Chris Cohan buys Da Bulls, Blogabull explodes.

I laugh at the overreaction against JR. There are so many sucky owners out there. By my count the Bulls have did well validating JR’s ownership (and he spent hung amounts of money on that winning team) and ChiSox too.

Bulls rebuilding was a mistake – Free Agency rules changed and there were some bad draft classes. Krause paid the price. Paxson’s one of the better GMs. Think other wise? Really?

by Noe_Valley on Jul 24, 2009 1:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Dude

The guy/gal that signs the checks always gets the most criticism. This just about owners and sports. It’s everywhere.

12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.

by NBA Observer on Jul 24, 2009 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Reinsdorf said he thinks 3 all-stars get you to contention

And to me, that’s logical. He didn’t think he had a championship core with Brand/Artest, so he blew it up for two guys with more upside (Curry/Chandler). When neither became an all-star, he blew it up for Hinrich/Gordon/Deng. That didn’t bring an all-star either.

Look at the high picks we’ve had between 2001-2006:

2 Tyson Chandler
2 Jay Williams
2 Tyrus Thomas
3 Ben Gordon
4 Eddy Curry
7 Kirk Hinrich
7 Luol Deng

Who could’ve ever predicted that ZERO of those guys would become all-stars?

It sucks that the Bulls have stunk for 11 years now, but it’s hard to fault Reinsdorf’s strategy – build through the draft, and when that doesn’t work, blow it up and build through the draft again. Every champ in the past 20 years besides the 04 Pistons landed a superstar through the draft. The strategy was correct.

We’ve (hopefully) got our superstar now. All Bulls management has done since Rose was drafted is rid themselves of Gooden, Hughes, Nocioni, Thabo, Gordon, and replaced them with Salmons, Miller. Debate the Gordon move all you want (I liked it), but overall that’s a net gain, especially because we dumped Noc’s bad contract.

Judge Reinsdorf from here on. When Jordan left in 1998, he put in place the same plan that worked back in 1984, and 11 years of bad luck later we’ve made it to step 2. We’re here! The land of Step 2! Rejoice!

by YaoPau on Jul 23, 2009 4:03 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

it's not a net gain

Salmons and Miller will both be gone soon enough.

USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 23, 2009 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

though if he actually DID blow it up

you’d have something. But he’s not, he just let Gordon go.

USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 23, 2009 4:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

and I hate the 'championships were done by this' argument.

it’s crap.

USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 23, 2009 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

though what's worse is the

“it’s totally fine that Reinsdorf is meddling in personnel decisions, he’s actually a basketball savant!” argument?

USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 23, 2009 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

for instance

the Celtics had a star in the draft, then made trades (quickly) to get the other two. See? Championship!!!!!

USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 23, 2009 4:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Right, so the other option is

waiting for the best player in the NBA (Garnett at the time) to become available on a team managed by an insane GM, so you can get him for pennies on the dollar. I’ll take building through the draft.

Reinsdorf wasn’t looking to build a 50 win team dynasty – the guy won 6 championships in the past 8 years. He wanted a title, and teams that draft with a superstar start with a huge advantage over teams that don’t because of wins added vs contract, rookie scale salary the first four years, etc.

by YaoPau on Jul 23, 2009 4:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well, to be fair

they drafted that star in like 1998. They made the trade 10 years later.

by Rose Colored Goggles on Jul 23, 2009 5:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

indeed

look forward to the YaoPau endorsed ’dorf bashing in 2019.

USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 23, 2009 6:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

That was the first time the insta-champion team ever worked.

It really raised the bar for what is possible via trades.

by JockstrapNoah on Jul 23, 2009 5:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

So that was 5 posts in a row - 3 of them responding to yourself?

Look what this is doing to you!

In honor of the dearly departed, I declare July PB&J month - everyone raise a sandwich to the memory of Ben!

by wjb1492 on Jul 23, 2009 7:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

yeah, that's definitely bad posting on my part :-(

USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 24, 2009 9:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Finally, some real positivity!!(Seriously)

I’m right there with you YaoPau! Championship squads aren’t built overnight. After pages and pages of bitchin this is a welcome site!

"You never got me down, Ray. Ya hear me? Never got me down."
-Jake Lamotta

by The Red Menace on Jul 23, 2009 4:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I mean "sight". Sorry.

"You never got me down, Ray. Ya hear me? Never got me down."
-Jake Lamotta

by The Red Menace on Jul 23, 2009 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

no you had it right the first time.

USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 23, 2009 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs

On the other hand, it's pretty easy to fault Reinsdorf's tactics

That is, even if you’ve got the right strategy (and I’m not conceding anything there, just saying for the sake of argument), a decade of stinking, even if you have the right strategy, suggests, just maybe, that there are a few problems with execution.

BullsTwo

by Sports2 on Jul 23, 2009 4:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Or a few problems with luck

We had five Top-4 picks between 2001-2006, but just a #7 pick in the powerhouse 2003 draft that would’ve basically guaranteed us a superstar. Jay Williams’ injury was Bias-level unheard of and unlucky.

Still, we had shots to get guys. Between 2001-2006, we could’ve realistically drafted all four of Pau Gasol, Devin Harris, Andre Iguodala, and Brandon Roy. Paxson whiffed on all four.

Add in picks from 1999-2007, and we had eleven top-10 picks, seven of which were top-4. Give Joe Blow off the street those picks and he’ll land you more than one all-star.

by YaoPau on Jul 23, 2009 5:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pax wasn't here when we drafted Tyson and Eddy over Gasol

But in the grand scheme of things, I agree completely. There’s no disputing that winning in the NBA is hard, but we’ve been about as bad as you can get since the dynasty days.

In my post above, I mentioned the Bulls won just shy of 38% of their games post dynasty. I wondered how that compared to other teams so I took a look.



Franchise	won	lost	Win%

SA Spurs	613	257	70%

Dal Mavs	567	303	65%

LALakers	561	309	64%

Pistons	526	344	60%

PhoenixSuns	518	352	60%

UtahJazz	498	372	57%

SacKings	483	387	56%

IndianaPacers	473	397	54%

HoustonRockets	471	399	54%

Por Blazers	459	411	53%

PhiSixers	454	416	52%

Hornets	453	417	52%

MiamiHeat	451	419	52%

BostonCeltics	449	421	52%

OrlandoMagic	447	423	51%

T-wolves	436	434	50%

NewJeNets	421	449	48%

ClevelandCavs	418	452	48%

DenverNuggets	418	452	48%

MilwaukeeBucks	404	466	46%

OKCThunder	397	473	46%

TorontoRaptors	395	475	45%

NYKnicks	375	495	43%

WasWizards	355	515	41%

GSWarriors	340	530	39%

AtlantaHawks	333	537	38%

ChicagoBulls	330	540	38%

Grizzlies	316	554	36%

LAClippers	315	555	36%

Bobcats	144	266	35%

BullsTwo

by Sports2 on Jul 23, 2009 6:05 PM CDT up reply actions 6 recs

That's painful to look at.

Things could be worse. We could have kept Boylan.

by stupidgenius on Jul 23, 2009 8:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

OMG! It's far worse than even I thought!!

And they keep filling up the UC. This is really a disgrace and the fans should make them pay the price. They have been trading on the success of MJ for all these years. Taking your money and producing very, very little.

They have no shame.

always a great contribution.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 17, 2009 8:33 AM PST

by hhirb on Jul 24, 2009 7:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I can't believe it

I knew we had some bad years but yuck! He have been worse than the Knicks and Warriors and almost as bad as the Grizzlies and Clippers??? Wow.

by bigballa10 on Jul 24, 2009 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

this post makes my head hurt

isn’t it the front offices job to predict which draft picks will pan out and become stars and which won’t. Especially when you have 3 #2 picks during that time? How is that bad luck?

by Basketball Smurf on Jul 23, 2009 7:24 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs

After you pick em

you also have to develop em.

12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.

by NBA Observer on Jul 24, 2009 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Or at least have the balls to tell the head coach to do so

It was up to Skiles and Co. to develop players, but Paxson is a douche for not stepping up and demanding certain things happen with the roster he drafted.

The Chicago Bulls.....the more profitable Los Angeles Clippers.

by Ozzie Montana on Jul 24, 2009 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

What if BJ Armstrong was the GM?

I still think the Chairman snubbed BJ pretty good.

12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.

by NBA Observer on Jul 24, 2009 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

agreed

Gee, let’s pick the tv analyst to run the team over the guy who has been the GM in training for the last few years. Can’t disagree with that reasoning…

by NormVanBeer on Jul 24, 2009 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

BJ Armstrong is an agent right?

For Derrick Rose among others?

by JockstrapNoah on Jul 24, 2009 5:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

correct

I should have said the guy who HAD been the GM in training…at that time.

by NormVanBeer on Jul 24, 2009 8:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks for clearin that up.

My eyeSITE is not so good these days! Not to go off topic, but my cousin came to visit me yesterday, i hadn’t seen him in years! Boy was he a SITE for sore eyes!

"You never got me down, Ray. Ya hear me? Never got me down."
-Jake Lamotta

by The Red Menace on Jul 23, 2009 4:28 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs