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Update on Gordon's Pistons contract

Doug Thonus of ChicagoNow has it at 5/$58 with incentives, starting at $10m next year.

Do we trust Doug's scoop? Meh, I guess. There was this report from a couple weeks ago that has the contract for less, but that was out before it was even official.

And two things from the blog post that I have to comment on:

I loved Ben Gordon at 9 million per year. At 11.6 million per year with incentives...I'm not so sure.

Right, because with that extra couple million you can get guys like Jannero Pargo.

Value doesn't win, production wins. It doesn't matter if Kirk Hinrich (just as an example...wait, the Bulls GM's example!) has more 'value' relative for his contract (a whopping $500k less this coming season even by the 'high' estimate of Gordon's deal) if he's less productive. It matters for the ledger lines, but not on the court. Better player is better than worse player, not too complicated.

And the kicker:

I'm sad [the Bulls] passed up on him last year at 6/54, but that decision is in the past in gone. I no longer feel the need to complain about it.

Ha!

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In what world is Salmons better than Gordon?

Salmons best year was slightly better than Gordon’s career averages. Not to mention Salmons will be 30 this year and Gordon just turned 26. For all the talk of how Gordon stalls the offense and plays no defense, he averages more assists per game than Salmons and gets about the same number of steals as Salmons. Salmons is just taller, but he’s definitely not better.

by lexdiamonds0730 on Jul 18, 2009 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’m gonna laugh my ass off when Ben drives baseline on Kirk and kicks the ball out of bounds. Then the ref is gonna call a block on Kirk, and we get Mopey face. Hahahah.

“The past is for cowards and losers” ;)

by Trey23 on Jul 18, 2009 2:11 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Something else I pointed out to Doug at RealGM

How would a source inside the Bulls organization be privy to “official contract information” about a contract Gordon signed with Detroit? This isn’t like an RFA situation where the other team would be presented the offer sheet a player signed in order to match. As far as we can tell, Gordon never told the Bulls the particulars of his contract offer because they showed no interest in re-signing him in the first place.

Of course, if Doug has contacts inside the Pistons organization, i’ll gladly bite my words. But this, along with the false report about Hinrich getting traded, along with the reports re: Gordon “not being able to stand Rose” which clearly contradict Paxson’s remarks at the post-lottery press conference where he said Gordon had texted him right away after the lottery (presumably because he was excited to be playing next to Rose) all smack of bad information, or misinformation coming from inside the FO.

"4 inches, baby!" --ripped off from Kush

by anorexorcist on Jul 18, 2009 2:13 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I don't think you have to be

a Piston’s insider to get that information. From what I understand, agents often have contract info of other players. So I don’t believe getting that info from a Pistons source isn’t the only way.

by HINrichPolice on Jul 18, 2009 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

that's what I'd assume as well

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 18, 2009 5:52 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think anyone who told you Gordon didn't want anything to do with Rose

has an agenda, point blank. First of all, it make sense that Hinrich and Rose would talk about on court stuff more, since they play the same position, Hinrich is the captain, and Hinrich was injured for a good portion of the season, i.e sitting on his ass and not doing anything.

You have to admit there has been a definite whisper campaign to make Gordon look bad that now dates back 2 or 3 years. I don’t think Bulls sources are above using the media to spread that campaign. In fact, that is their main source – provide bloggers and reporters with access to fulfill their agenda.

by Basketball Smurf on Jul 18, 2009 5:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Heard of rehabbing?

In honor of the dearly departed, I declare July PB&J month - everyone raise a sandwich to the memory of Ben!

by wjb1492 on Jul 18, 2009 5:48 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dear Lord

you need to rename yourself Hinrich Police #2. During the games, while he was injured, Hinrich was sitting on the bench doing nothing. So he has more time to gets up, and offers D Rose some pointers. That was my point. He is not prepping for the game. He wasn’t worried about doing his own thing.

And he had a torn ligament in his thumb. Not a screwed up knee or ankle. I don’t think he had to rehab that injury too hard. He just had to wait for it to heal. Man you Hinrich fans are obsessed. Can’t even make an innocuous joke at the guys expense. That is why this reporting probably rings so true to you. “Hinrich is such a great guy. He is such a teammate. The Bulls should have kept him…”

by Basketball Smurf on Jul 18, 2009 6:25 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Talk about overreacting

First, you in no way came across as joking there.

Second, Kirk wasn’t even with the team for a good part of that time – since he was rehabbing. And do you honestly think there isn’t much rehab that goes into “just” a thumb for any athlete, much less a PG? It’s not just regaining range of motion and strength at the injury site, it’s also getting back into game shape. Obviously it’s not as strenuous as a knee, but it still needs to be done.

And finally, I don’t know why it’s so difficult to give credit to a guy not traveling with the team, dealing with an injury, and watching the new kid take his old job to just jump right in there and help the new kid get even better. Ben’s also a guard, so it’s hardly expecting Aaron Gray to come up with something to help Derrick with. By all reports Kirk was actively trying to help Derrick, not just dropping a hint or high-five here and there during a game.

I don’t actually care if Ben was more interested in working on his own game than helping Derrick out – it’s not like I see that as some big stain on his character. At the same time, it can be seen as a positive in another player.

In honor of the dearly departed, I declare July PB&J month - everyone raise a sandwich to the memory of Ben!

by wjb1492 on Jul 18, 2009 7:41 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

you are right

i’m sorry i insulted saint kirk

by Basketball Smurf on Jul 18, 2009 9:38 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, screw you.

Seriously. Strawman much?

Vinny Del Negro Offensive Gameplan, Part 1
-When there's less than 30 seconds left in the game, that's me with my hands cupped around my mouth yelling.
"BEN! SHOOT! SHOOOOTTTT!!! WHY AREN'T YOU LISTENING TO ME?!?"
-This segues nicely into my Timeout Management classes - order now!

by Prevenge on Jul 19, 2009 12:34 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

it was a throw away comment

i didn’t want to debate kirk hinrich. And what did you have to do with it?

by Basketball Smurf on Jul 19, 2009 12:49 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was reading it

and thought ‘Wow, that’s dumb.’

Vinny Del Negro Offensive Gameplan, Part 1
-When there's less than 30 seconds left in the game, that's me with my hands cupped around my mouth yelling.
"BEN! SHOOT! SHOOOOTTTT!!! WHY AREN'T YOU LISTENING TO ME?!?"
-This segues nicely into my Timeout Management classes - order now!

by Prevenge on Jul 19, 2009 3:23 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also, I didn't mean that you had to debate wjb,

just that you don’t need to post vaguely insulting throwaway comments to end arguments. :P

Vinny Del Negro Offensive Gameplan, Part 1
-When there's less than 30 seconds left in the game, that's me with my hands cupped around my mouth yelling.
"BEN! SHOOT! SHOOOOTTTT!!! WHY AREN'T YOU LISTENING TO ME?!?"
-This segues nicely into my Timeout Management classes - order now!

by Prevenge on Jul 19, 2009 3:25 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why do you say Kirk wasn't with

the team for a good part of the time? He wasn’t with the team when they went on the circus trip and that is all. He traveled with the team after that trip so he was with Derrick as much as any other team member.

In Derricks thank you to the fans that was posted on Bulls.com he thanked Kirk for all of his help. Why would he have done that if Kirk hadn’t helped him? Derrick also mentioned Kirk’s help in interviews too. Sorry if you missed those.

Derrick also liked playing with Kirk too. That was in one of KC’s mailbags after Kirk came back from his injury.

As Matt mentioned Kirk and Ben came from totally different backgrounds. Being the son of the coach maybe has shown Kirk how to be helpful to other players. Especially one who plays the same position.

by sue369 on Jul 19, 2009 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That first part was just going with what wjb said.

She was the one who said Hinrich wasn’t with the team a good part of that time.

Second, Kirk wasn’t even with the team for a good part of that time – since he was rehabbing.

So maybe you should call her out?

People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett

by tyger1147 on Jul 20, 2009 7:57 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe.

I just wanted to put it all in this one post but thanks for caring so much Tyger.

by sue369 on Jul 20, 2009 9:04 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

This was my only point:

You say below you see no need to trash Ben on his way out. I totally agree with that. I’m far past the point of wanting to move on from Ben – I thank him for his contributions to the Bulls over the past 5 years, I would have liked things to work out differently, but I wish him well personally (even as I still hope the Pistons lose.) I also noted that I don’t think Ben not going out of his way to help Derrick outside of organized team practices and games should be an issue, and do not take it as anything bad about Ben.

However, to paraphrase your own words, I see no need to trash Kirk because he’s still here while Ben is gone. And it’s quite possible to disagree with the FOs position without trashing Kirk. You were doing that quite nicely up till the point where you felt the need to take a shot at Kirk. And that’s what I objected to – not a single word you said in Ben’s defense.

In honor of the dearly departed, I declare July PB&J month - everyone raise a sandwich to the memory of Ben!

by wjb1492 on Jul 19, 2009 2:18 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't doubt that Hinrich would help more

it seems to be more in line with their personalities, as to be general: Kirk is the coach’s son and Gordon is the loner.

My issue is how much the Bulls value that, which is probably what they’re lying (possibly even to themselves) about.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 18, 2009 5:55 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

To be clear, I never stated that this was the reason Gordon was gone or that it was important to the Bulls.

I relayed it as an example of one story I’ve heard about Ben not being the best chemistry guy or team guy fitting with Rose, and suggested that if the Bulls decided they like Hinrich more than Gordon (and I believe they really do) that there might be more things like this under the surface that we don’t know about because we’re not around the team.

There has often been an undercurrent of thought that Ben Gordon is selfish or egotistical or has some problems. That may be all exaggerated or made up, but it’s existed long before he had contract problems, and it may also be true. My point wasn’t to say that “Ben Gordon did this, thus the Bulls got rid of him”. My point was “The Bulls got rid of Gordon and clearly don’t value him as much as I do, here is a guess as to why that might be true, and here’s one story I’ve heard that fits this pattern”.

by dougthonus on Jul 18, 2009 8:04 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

I appreciate your opinion on the subject, and of course that is a possibility.

I also put forth this:
Ben Gordon has been considered an egocentric player his entire career by the Chicago Bulls. Most reporters have given off that impression his entire time in Chicago. He’s also frequently been considered a selfish offensive player (whether you believe that or not, many professional basketball talent evaluators have said that).

Gordon has also always had a reputation as a bit of a loner.

Gordon had two years of terrible contract negotiations with Chicago and was not at all happy with the way they treated him, he was especially upset after they wouldn’t let him sign the six year deal. Thus, he was on a qualifying offer, forced into it against his will at this point. He probably had significant dislike for the organization (for very legitimate and rationale reasons by the way).

So are you suggesting, that there’s no way that Gordon could possibly have been out there looking out for himself and didn’t care to work with Rose at all? No chance? Only someone with an agenda could have made that up?

I’m not going to discount the possibility that someone with an agenda told me that about Gordon, but it also fits with virtually everything said about Gordon since he became a Bull and his current situation on the team as 1 year in purgatory.

by dougthonus on Jul 18, 2009 8:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

How exactly was Ben Gordon suppose to be helping Rose?

That is never specified, so I don’t really know what it means. I don’t think Ben has any insights to impart on Rose.

I conceded that Hinrich was probably working with Rose more than Gordon. But I also noted that they play the same position, so it makes a lot of sense. Aren’t the coaches supposed to be helping the players? How much has Deng worked with Rose? Tyrus? What is Kirk exactly helping Rose with? This information is so vague that it could really constitute anything. But it does serve one informational purpose – it makes Kirk look good and Ben look bad, which fits the organization’s goals.

How does this fit with everything said about Gordon? Gordon has been called a professional, a hard worker, a team player. No one has ever said Ben Gordon has been a problem in the locker room. Give me something that Ben supposedly did wrong. What does it mean that Gordon wanted nothing to do with Rose? Explain that to me. Was he refusing to say hi in the locker room? Was Rose coming to Gordon with questions and Ben refusing to answer them? I mean, come on. The entire notion that Ben wanted nothing to do with Rose is an opinion being masqueraded around as fact.

Regarding the selfish tag – You wrote an article for Bullspodcasters.com demonstrating that Gordon was no more “selfish” than any other top level shooting guard. He played behind Chris Duhon without complaint! I don’t think the egocentric meme has been established anywhere but in the minds of a few fans and the Chicago media.

Ben had some acrimonious negotiations with the Bulls – yes. He also gave them every opportunity to sign him; he also played through injuries; he never complained to the media; etc. I find it hard to believe that Ben’s attitude was ‘screw Derrick Rose’ – I want nothing to do with him. Players routinely separate the business side from the playing side. Ben has been described as the utmost professional in every circumstance. But on this specific thing – he is not willing to work with Rose because of his animosity towards the Bulls? I don’t believe it. I’ve heard Rose say he likes playing with Ben Gordon. Does that count for nothing? Ben was one of the first guys to introduce himself to Rose; he spent a lot of time every summer working at the Berto center. This doesn’t sound like a guy who was trying to distance himself from Rose due to animosity towards the organization.

I think Ben has been the same guy for the last 5 years. Maybe he is a loner, so what. There is a difference between being a loner and being someone who is somehow undermining D. Rose’s development. I don’t think anyone can accuse Ben of that. And like yfbb said, the fact that Kirk is helping Rose more than Ben shouldn’t be some bonus to keep Kirk over Ben.

This reminds me of the campaign at the end of last season questioning Deng’s toughness through the media. Than stories surfaced that Deng was jealous of Rose. A bunch of negativity came Deng’s way from the organization because they were unhappy with his decision not to play. Now all of a sudden, its changed – Deng had problems playing with BG, not Rose (according to KC). Despite the fact they played together at a high level for 3 straight years. Perhaps someone is changing the story for public relation purposes.

Here is my main point: People in power often give self serving quotes to reporters who are unable to verify the information themselves. All these negative things being said about BG from sources in the Bulls organization are very self serving. There is every reason to believe that the basketball people involved with the Bulls wanted to keep Ben and that the owner had other ideas.

The Bulls might like Kirk over Ben. There are reasons too. But there is no reason to trash BG as he is leaving.

by Basketball Smurf on Jul 18, 2009 10:27 PM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

the way they drafted says

yes, but the bulls will dangle him at all the teams they can before the deadline.

don't let the bed bugs bite

by Rex Grossman on Jul 19, 2009 5:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I believe Sam Smith also said...

They have been shopping him since deadline, but no one really wants him..

The Bulls obviously do not want to pay him, or they would have at least offered him an extension this summer…but, it seems no one from Tyrus’ draft class is getting an extension…except the #1 overall pick.

" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem

is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger

by Dionysus2.0 on Jul 20, 2009 8:39 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

well it works out for the bulls front office

they either trade him, or if there isn’t anything out there (like you said) they can lowball him when his contract is up (which they will) and they can either get him on the cheap or let him walk.

don't let the bed bugs bite

by Rex Grossman on Jul 20, 2009 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

How did Gordon have "terrible contract negotiations" two years ago?

Wasn’t the original contract extension presented in a manner such as “We know this may not be what you’re worth, but it’s long-term security and stability. Take it or leave it.” Were the negotiations at all that first year? I thought both were presented in this “take it or leave it” but we’ll gladly revisit this next season." sort of way.

Were the really negotiations that were “terrible” two years ago?

People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett

by tyger1147 on Jul 19, 2009 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Gordon spoke about how he was disrespected to Gilbert Arenas two years ago, and how he wasn’t happy with how the Bulls valued him or negotiated with him. Gilbert wrote about it in his blog after he blamed Gordon for not taking the 5/50, then said after talking to Gordon he felt bad for him (or something to that effect).

by dougthonus on Jul 19, 2009 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I guess that makes some sense. "No negotiations" = "terrible negotiations"

And no, I’m not being sarcastic.

People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett

by tyger1147 on Jul 20, 2009 7:58 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

His

Source makes the delicous pizza. But he does over things

"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."

- fundamentallysound

by J Theory on Jul 18, 2009 5:16 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

Wait until the first Bulls-Pistons Game Thread!

Face it Ben is gone and it’s time to move on.

"Whoever was responsible for pulling that offer [to Ben Gordon] off the table...bring him before me and I'll punch him right in the face " - Frederick Pfeiffer

by Granny Waiters on Jul 18, 2009 4:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I completely agree

except for the Tim Thomas part (I sense sarcasm but will not hesitate to bash him anyway), he is useless to the Bulls and he isn’t a good asset to have because his stock is low and the Bulls would have to give him minutes to make him worth trading which adversely affects the young forwards the Bulls already have. $6,466,600 to ride the bench? Ew.

don't let the bed bugs bite

by Rex Grossman on Jul 19, 2009 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

"Right, because with that extra couple million you can get guys like Jannero Pargo."

Overpaying is still overpaying. If management works under a self imposed hard cap (as long as we’re not title contenders), then every 2 million matters. Your mindset of an extra 2 million per year not being a big deal as long as we keep the talent is the same mindset our FO probably had when trying to lock up Nocioni, Hinrich, and Deng. We got lucky in dumping Noc, but imagine how much easier it’d be to trade away Hinrich or Deng if their annual salary was a mllion or two smaller? It all adds up.

by HINrichPolice on Jul 18, 2009 3:23 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Extra couple of million is a difference between getting Pargo or, say, Sessions… Overpaying backfires in a big way in the NBA – you lose flexibility with your roster – what would the Bulls look like now if they didn’t overpay Wallace, Deng?

by bob horse on Jul 18, 2009 4:43 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Deng isn't overpaid

he’s hurt.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 18, 2009 6:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

*not severely overpaid

:)

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 18, 2009 6:06 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

he's both

when healthy, he hasn’t played up to this contract in 2 years

by bob horse on Jul 18, 2009 6:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

that's one of the points I'm trying to make

if Deng plays like a $10m player instead of a $12m player…that means he should not be on the team (for zero million)?

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 18, 2009 6:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

In my opinion, Deng should not be on the team because he is a poor fit for the Bulls system/Rose – can’t make a 3, can’t put the ball on the floor, etc. That is beside your point, I believe…

If you have $12 to spend and you believe that your guy is not worth more than $10, it’s a perfectly reasonable decision to let him go, and spend $12 on people who appear to be worth it, and not necessarily the next year. Exceptions are warranted for truly essential players (e.g. Rose) and championship-caliber teams.

by bob horse on Jul 18, 2009 6:33 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

that's only true if they're under the cap

otherwise you CAN’T replace a $12m player.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 18, 2009 6:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

that's how Bulls operate anyway

As you well know, JR does not operate above the cap – unless the team is championship caliber. So when it comes to the Bulls, you can pretty much assume that we are living under a hard cap.

If the team is championship-caliber (or the player is truly great) the rules change – I acknowledged that.

by bob horse on Jul 18, 2009 6:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No you're talking about the tax

I’m talking about the salary cap.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 18, 2009 9:14 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Deng was evaluated as a starting 3

so I’d say he is paid as a starter at the 3 should be.

don't let the bed bugs bite

by Rex Grossman on Jul 19, 2009 5:52 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

well if every 2 million matters

then they wasted it on Pargo, Gray, Hunter, etc. :)

My biggest problem with the Nocioni deal was the contract length, but at any rate he was never on the level of Deng and Gordon (and I suppose Hinrich) so that’s a whole ’nother animal.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 18, 2009 6:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh really?

25 boards in his first playoff game? 22.3 pts and 8.8 rebs in the 05/06 playoffs? As a starter scored averaged close to 20 points.

Career stats per 36 minutes clearly have him at Deng and Hinrich levels. That’s why he got the long-term contract. He just never got starter’s min. and leg problems slowed him down at the end of his tenure hear.

Nocioni ……………………… Deng …………………………… Kirk

16.7 pts 7.1 rebs …………..16.6 and 6.8 ……………. 14.6 pts 6.4 assists.

by Trey23 on Jul 18, 2009 9:45 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Jannero Pargo was overpaid.

Vinny Del Negro Offensive Gameplan, Part 1
-When there's less than 30 seconds left in the game, that's me with my hands cupped around my mouth yelling.
"BEN! SHOOT! SHOOOOTTTT!!! WHY AREN'T YOU LISTENING TO ME?!?"
-This segues nicely into my Timeout Management classes - order now!

by Prevenge on Jul 19, 2009 12:35 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You are the only Bulls fan that seems to know what they are talking about.

The rest of the “Fans” just bitch & cry. I am staring to realize that Bulls fans are about as dumb as White Sox fans. They finished school at 16 not even a G.E.D??? WTF!!!

by Jesus Presley on Jul 18, 2009 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

Bitching about people who bitch, that's the zenith of intelligence.

The Chicago Bulls.....the more profitable Los Angeles Clippers.

by Ozzie Montana on Jul 18, 2009 4:02 PM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

Get Over IT!!!! B.G is Gone, & he will be the main reason Dumars is fired! Pistons are gonna Suck.

Salmons is Better, & the Bulls will be in great shape for 2010 free agent class!

by Jesus Presley on Jul 18, 2009 4:53 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

you're wrong

1. BG will NOT be the main reason Dumars is fired. If anything, passing up on Carmelo will be more of a reason than the signing of Gordon.

2. The Pistons will not suck.

3. Salmons is not better than Gordon.

4. The Bulls are STILL TRYING to get in decent shape for 2010. They still have a ways to go for a max guy.

YOU should GET OVER IT

by NormVanBeer on Jul 18, 2009 5:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You

Have to put the coaches as #1

"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."

- fundamentallysound

by J Theory on Jul 18, 2009 5:20 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

Question...

And I am serious…why do you think the Pistons will not suck?

They were below .500 last season and have lost Rasheed Wallace, Amir Johnson, Walter Hermann and Allen Iverson while adding Charlie Villanueva and Ben Gordon…The way their roster is projecting, their starting Center will be Kwame Brown!?! Add to that mix a rookie coach and I don’t see how they don’t suck…

" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem

is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger

by Dionysus2.0 on Jul 18, 2009 6:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

3 of those players didn't even play (Hermann, Iverson, Johnson)

and Rasheed Wallace mailed it in after they traded Billups.

by Basketball Smurf on Jul 18, 2009 6:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

uhh

they had a rookie coach last season.

And how can you even count Iverson into the equation? And Walter Hermann??

You clearly weren’t “serious”.

by NormVanBeer on Jul 18, 2009 9:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

And they sucked last season…

How can you not count Iverson, their second leading scorer, the big piece they acquired in the trade of Billups…the guy they replaced with Ben Gordon. Hermann was a joke, but Amir Johnson, Antonio McDyess and Rasheed Wallace are not jokes…I do not expect Austin Daye and Charlie Villanueva to be able to replace their production…

I do not see how they have improved their team for next season…

" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem

is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger

by Dionysus2.0 on Jul 19, 2009 12:07 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Right now CV31 is better than Sheed

Also, I would argue that BG is an upgrade over AI. Hermann isn’t any good (or so my diehard pistons friends tell me) and losing Amir does suck, but that is it. They are going to have a bitching team.

If we aren't careful, the leanness we now feel will be the starvation of those we serve.

by Chi 'Till I Die on Jul 18, 2009 10:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You think Villanueva is better than Sheed?

Enough said.

" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem

is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger

by Dionysus2.0 on Jul 19, 2009 12:08 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, right now CV is better than Sheed.

Sheed is a corpse now. I think he may be slightly rejuvenated on the C’s (as if that team didn’t need another ass who brays when he scores). CV is an upgrade over an older guy who didn’t want to play on a rebuilding team anymore.

If we aren't careful, the leanness we now feel will be the starvation of those we serve.

by Chi 'Till I Die on Jul 19, 2009 12:37 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sheed was a disgrace last year.

He made a ridiculous amount of money to half-ass his way through a season and chuck up horrible shot after horrible shot. Professionals should put forth a decent effort regardless of how the team is performing, and while Charlie V put in the effort, Sheed did not. Sheed was a complete piece of shit.

CV is NOT better than Sheed! Not even close!!!!

Well, that’s half correct. Look at CV’s per 36 numbers as opposed to Sheed’s last season. Not even close. About 8 points more for CV, comparable numbers everywhere else except PER, where Charlie V had a 3.7 advantage.

That being said, neither player is particularly great. Sheed will have a better year than he did this past season because he’s on a contender, and Charlie V will probably also do better now that he’s on a better team. Sheed may have been better a couple years back, but I don’t think he is right now.

by T-Boogie on Jul 19, 2009 8:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

They won a Title the year after the Melo draft. Dumars recent moves will be the reason he is fired.

The A.I for Billups trade was terrible, & when you think it was to open up space to overpay B.G & Villanuva its much worse! B.G gets $12 mil to come off the bench for Rip(BAD MOVE). Villanuva is not a good team player & will never win in the NBA! The DET squad is gonna be garbage! Darko was a bad pick, but they won after that. He had way to much hype Dumars bought in & missed on Melo, Bosh & Wade. And Last the Bulls are in GREAT shape for Next years free agent class. Salmons is better!

by Jesus Presley on Jul 18, 2009 6:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am going to ignore your general stupidity.

But I will correct you in one regard. Dumars already said they are going to play a three guard line up of Stuck, Rip and BG. So BG isn’t Rip’s backup.

If we aren't careful, the leanness we now feel will be the starvation of those we serve.

by Chi 'Till I Die on Jul 18, 2009 10:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

BG is the backup to start the game

but everything else ie everyone’s “Jesus Presley is an idiot” insinuations

I agree with

by Boney on Jul 23, 2009 5:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

who cares if the Pistons suck?

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 18, 2009 6:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It matters very little

how the Bulls do, matters.

and I’m guessing you don’t even have the Pistons in the lofty Bulls tier (with Atlanta, Miami, Philly?), so no worries.

But that’s in terms of just the East this season. In terms of both teams gunning for a title, both are way way far off, with the Bulls having an inherent edge due to Rose (and nothing else). Lots of moves will be made by both teams before they’re actually competing for something against eachother.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 18, 2009 6:25 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's dumb. You should hope for more from the Bulls.

You should hope the Bulls become the best team in the NBA. In that context, “Who cares if the Pistons suck?”

People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett

by tyger1147 on Jul 19, 2009 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's still not a big deal

If they win more games than the Bulls with a bigger payroll, I wonder what Bulls fans will care about?

The Chicago Bulls.....the more profitable Los Angeles Clippers.

by Ozzie Montana on Jul 19, 2009 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

pisstons*

fixed! =)

I was watching the 1995 Playoffs VS the Magic's and remembered how much I hated Horace Grant. Horace Grant - i hope you burn in bball hell

by Belize on Jul 18, 2009 6:46 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Get over what? Your constant trolling?

Right, keep complaining about other people on the site instead of having your own thoughts.

The Chicago Bulls.....the more profitable Los Angeles Clippers.

by Ozzie Montana on Jul 19, 2009 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow, that's just such a bad argument as to be almost be juvenile.

Matt is clearly saying, and your line to be drawn, can clearly be made, that Gordon at $9.5 million is the same as Gordon at $22.5 million. $2 million is chump change in “overpaidness”. With his lack of injury history, fairly consistent production and entering his prime years, Gordon will not be worth less than $9.5 million. Which means, he’ll be overpaid by $2 million. A) If a team can’t make moves because of $2 million, they are very, very uncreative. B) He’ll always be tradeable. C) That extra $2 million could actually be a positive thing if they are trying to do a sign-and-trade for a superstar, as it would require less money/players going out and could allow the Bulls to be more flexible.

Are there any players that are overpaid by 20% that are unntradeable? 40, 50%? Yes. Nocioni was overpaid by about 30-40% AND by 2 years, and he was still traded!!!

People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett

by tyger1147 on Jul 18, 2009 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

yes and no

I don’t completely disagree with you, but it’s not as obvious situation as you make it out to be. First 2 million is not insignificant; are you sure that if Hinrich was making 2 mln less, he would still be on the Bulls? I am not sure that he wouldn’t have been dumped at the deadline, and Gordon would be now a Bull.

Then, the one assumption you are making is that Ben is worth $9.5. If the Bulls feel that he is worth $7.5-8, than you would understand how they don’t want to overpay him to the $11.5 extent…

The Bulls first and foremost fucked up by giving too much money to Wallace and then Deng. That caused them Gordon, given their self-induced budget constraints

by bob horse on Jul 18, 2009 4:51 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wallace was a spectacular failure that's hard to reproduce

Gordon’s 8 years younger than what Wallace was, the bust rate is much much lower.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 18, 2009 6:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

i am not comparing Wallace to Gordon

My point is that if Bulls didn’t spend the money badly on Wallace, they would have been in position to resign Gordon, for example. One of the root causes of losing Gordon now is poor spending in the past.

Ben is very unlikely to be much worse than he was – he has been healthy and he has been playing on more-or-less the same level since his rookie year.

by bob horse on Jul 18, 2009 6:38 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wallace was gone 1 full year before BG was up for free agency

so literally, you are wrong.

in your own dream world, you’re right, of course

by Boney on Jul 23, 2009 5:21 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

not entirely true

his salary equivalent was still with us. if we hadn’t committed 15 mil a year to the guy and forced to take 15 mil back when trading him, we’d have more free space…

"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"

by Jaina on Jul 24, 2009 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sure. This wasn't about really about the Bulls. And I did make an assumption.

If Doug is saying that Gordon is worth $7.5 million and he would have liked having him at $9.5 million but not $11.5, then you’re right. However, Doug’s response to yfBB, the “recursive” whatever, implies to me that’s not the case. Otherwise, he would have been arguing against himself. It implies to me (and again, it’s inference, so I could be wrong) that Doug thinks Gordon is “worth” $9.5 million, and he won’t pay $2 million more than that.

I honestly don’t think the $2 million less would matter for HInrich. The Bulls are willing to keep him as a back-up guard at $9.5, I’m sure they’d do the same at $7.5 million. If he made $5.5 million, he might actually only barely be overpaid as a back-up combo guard, there’s no way they would have had him on the trading block, and they may have made moves to attempt to actually retain Gordon.

People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett

by tyger1147 on Jul 19, 2009 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

You seem to be implying there are two values. How much he’s worth to me and how much I’d be willing to pay him over what he’s worth. Quite frankly, I’m not sure who created such a concept or why they believe in it, but I don’t agree with it. What Gordon is worth to me is what I’m willing to pay him. They are the same. I would try to pay him as little as I could get away with, but there aren’t too limits. One that’s really the limit and one 2 million under that, and quite frankly, that whole concept strikes me as idiotic.

If I think Ben Gordon provides 10 million per year value to the team why would I pay him 12 million per year? Worth can be based on many things, difficulty to replace, fit with the team, earnings his loss will cost me, production on the court, etc.. I’m not sure that I have an exact figure for what Gordon is worth to me. Gordon’s “worth” may vary from team to team depending on the situation.

12 million is right at the upper edge of that and probably just beyond it. I wouldn’t be complaining about Gordon at that price, but I wouldn’t be cheering the move either. Thus, I’m fine with him leaving at the price I feel we would have had to spend to keep him. If he left and we could have had him for 9 million then I’d be very upset. If we could have gotten him for 10 million then I’d be less upset, but still upset. At 11 million I’d maybe be a tiny bit upset, but I’d also understand.

At this point, I think it would have cost us 12 million to keep him, and at that point it’s beyond where I can muster up even any anger towards Bulls management for not doing it. I am disappointed that Gordon won’t be on the team, but I understand and accept the decision made this summer as a logical one.

The mistake lies in the decision made last summer.

by dougthonus on Jul 19, 2009 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

yea

that’s exactly what I thought when I read that

by JSlakov on Jul 18, 2009 5:25 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

first, the Bulls boned themselves by not getting a deal done sooner

and it’s not about them whining about the past, it’s about them realizing they lost whatever advantage they were trying to gain (not that they shouldn’t) by getting an extension done early. Didn’t get done early, Gordon’s a UFA, UFA’s get paid more.

So is then paying him ‘more’ a compounding mistake? Perhaps, but losing him is a worse compounding mistake.

I’d agree with you in your valuing of value (heh) if there was a hard cap around the league, and an open market of free agency. But there is no hard cap, and it’s inherently harder to get other team’s talent than it is to keep your own. The Bulls cannot replace Gordon with someone at his production with a contract of 9 million. It was him at 11 million or nobody at 0 million. Or Pargo at 2 million (same thing?).

And I’m not buying the slippery slope of contract cost. Gordon is not a max player, he’s not a MLE player. He’s somewhere in between, and to me 9 or 11 million are in the same tier. Would there be a number where I balked? Maybe, but this isn’t it.

Not to mention that the Bulls did everything to push Gordon away after last summer to where perhaps the Bulls had no chance to match even if they wanted to. Which makes this whole idea seem moot, as the Bulls are likely lying to themselves by saying they made a call not to pay Gordon 11 million a season, it’s been reading like Gordon gave them no choice due to their own incompetence in previous years.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 18, 2009 6:15 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

We couldn’t have gotten Gordon at 11 million. Gordon didn’t want to come back here, and the Pistons paid him more than 11 million. The Pistons may have also upped their ante if we bid higher against them as well.

I’d say it’d have cost us at least 12 million to get Gordon to come back. Maybe that’s still not enough to cross your line, but I’d imagine that it’s getting pretty close to your line.

by dougthonus on Jul 18, 2009 9:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You seemed to have missed the point.

What is the most you would pay Ben Gordon?

Would you pay Ben Gordon 2 million more than that? No. If you would, then you wouldn’t have specified the above limit.

I was extremely critical of the organization for not paying Ben Gordon last season. I wrote many articles about it during the season, talked about it extensively on my podcast, and brought it up again. However, my limit is such that I probably wouldn’t pay him 12 million a year. I might. I might still do it, but I’m not really upset that it didn’t happen.

Could we pay Gordon 12 million a year and get out of it later? If everything goes well and he remains only overpaid by 2 million a year, but if something goes wrong and his value goes down then all of a sudden he’s overpaid by 4-5 million and no, you can’t. That’s what happened to Luol Deng. He was probably overpaid by 1-2 million a year, and it would have been fine if he didn’t get hurt, but now you couldn’t trade him.

Your Nocioni example illustrates this point. He was overpaid by probably less than 1 million dollars a year at the time of his signing. However, by a year later his value had dropped significantly and he became overpaid by quite a bit more. The same could be said of Kirk Hinrich who was often seen as a good contract for the Bulls at the time of his signing, and is now viewed as a bad contract.

by dougthonus on Jul 18, 2009 4:03 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

Yes, the point is how much Gordon actually got.

At the amount we would have needed to pay him, I’m not upset to see him go, and I am a card carrying member of the Gordon fan club. Which gets back to my previous point that we all have our limit to “what Gordon could get and we’d feel good about it”. He signed for above my personal limit, so I’m not upset that he’s gone.

As a side note the roughly 2 million dollar gap between Gordon/Hinrich next season could be significant in our attempts to lure a 2010 free agent, depending on where the cap falls and whether Salmons opts in or out, that 2 million could easily be the gap between having max cap space and not having it.

Also, you know we couldn’t remove Taj Gibson to make a difference, that’d save us 600k or so if we replaced him with a rookie free agent.

by dougthonus on Jul 19, 2009 8:19 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

...
At the amount we would have needed to pay him, I’m not upset to see him go, and I am a card carrying member of the Gordon fan club. Which gets back to my previous point that we all have our limit to "what Gordon could get and we’d feel good about it". He signed for above my personal limit, so I’m not upset that he’s gone.

OK, but unless that personal limit is based on something such as the cap space situation, it’s pretty arbitrary. Even though they’re all our “personal limits”, it seems to me that they ought to still be driven by the logic of building a team….

As a side note the roughly 2 million dollar gap between Gordon/Hinrich next season could be significant in our attempts to lure a 2010 free agent, depending on where the cap falls and whether Salmons opts in or out, that 2 million could easily be the gap between having max cap space and not having it.

If it’s going to be significant, then Salmons and his $6M deal is by far the overriding factor. With Gordon, he needs to opt out or be traded for us to have cap space. Without Gordon, he needs to opt out have the cap space. Which is sort of the elephant in the room in this whole discussion, of course, because the worse the market and cap figures get, the less likely he probably is to opt out.

Thus, I think it’s pretty likely we end up with no max cap space in any case, because hey, we just have to keep Salmons and Kirk now that Gordon’s not here, and then hope Salmons opts out.

Also, you know we couldn’t remove Taj Gibson to make a difference, that’d save us 600k or so if we replaced him with a rookie free agent.

I don’t know that at all and neither do you. The important difference isn’t necessarily the fact that Gordon will make $1.8M more than Hinrich, it’s the difference between our committed salary, whatever the salary cap is, and a max cap contract value. That could be $6M, $2M, or $200k. If it’s the latter, then trading Gibson makes us able to offer a max deal.

The operative question is how far away from making a max deal next year we would be, with Hinrich or Gordon on the team. While Gordon would make $1.8M more than Kirk, that doesn’t mean $1.8M is the amount we come up short in terms of cap space. It could be the $700k we get by replacing Gibson with a rookie 2nd rounder. Or less.

Or it could be more even if we’ve got Kirk, because Salmons doesn’t opt out and Tyrus busts out and has a great season. In which case, we don’t want to let him walk for nothing and we can’t effectively use our cap space anyhow. In which case, it’ll be a damn shame to have let Gordon walk since he’d have filled that hole at SG we now can’t fill.

by Sports2 on Jul 19, 2009 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

OK, but unless that personal limit is based on something such as the cap space situation, it’s pretty arbitrary. Even though they’re all our "personal limits", it seems to me that they ought to still be driven by the logic of building a team….

I have no idea what your point is. My value of worth isn’t arbitrary, and it is of course related to the cap, if the cap was 200 million then I would pay Ben Gordon more. My value for Gordon is based on his peers, the cap, and opportunity cost vs production lost etc, and I think paying him 12 million is very dicey. It might work out, I wouldn’t be ranting if we did it, but I think it has a very high probability of not working out, and thus I’m equally okay not doing it.

Thus, I think it’s pretty likely we end up with no max cap space in any case, because hey, we just have to keep Salmons and Kirk now that Gordon’s not here, and then hope Salmons opts out.

If you run through the numbers based on whether we keep our pick, not keep our pick, and sign all rookie FAs vs 3rd year vets and everything else, there’s definitely a chance the 1.8 million + would make a big difference (and I put the + in there, because we’d have to pay Gordon MORE than the Pistons). He wanted to leave.

I don’t know that at all and neither do you. The important difference isn’t necessarily the fact that Gordon will make $1.8M more than Hinrich, it’s the difference between our committed salary, whatever the salary cap is, and a max cap contract value. That could be $6M, $2M, or $200k. If it’s the latter, then trading Gibson makes us able to offer a max deal.

Well i was responding to your point that we could have traded Gibson to make up the difference. Gibson would cost us 1/3rd or so of the minimum difference. What is a greater variable is what contract Gordon would have accepted from the Bulls, whom he wanted to leave. Would it have been 10.8 million that year, or maybe he wanted another 10 million and it would have been 12.8 million that year. Who knows. What I do know is Gordon didn’t want to be here anymore, and we needed to beat that Pistons offer which means more than the 1.8 million dollar difference.

by dougthonus on Jul 19, 2009 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

So let me get this
I have no idea what your point is. My value of worth isn’t arbitrary, and it is of course related to the cap, if the cap was 200 million then I would pay Ben Gordon more. My value for Gordon is based on his peers, the cap, and opportunity cost vs production lost etc, and I think paying him 12 million is very dicey. It might work out, I wouldn’t be ranting if we did it, but I think it has a very high probability of not working out, and thus I’m equally okay not doing it.

Point is, as I outlined in great detail above, none of your rationales for not paying Gordon, aside from cap space seem very strong in the context of the examples (Deng, Hinrich, Noc) you gave. Based on age, health, and expected team role, paying Gordon is clearly a lower risk move than paying those guys. Thus, aside from the potential cap issue next summer, these arguments seem arbitrary and inconsistent when applied to Gordon.

If you run through the numbers based on whether we keep our pick, not keep our pick, and sign all rookie FAs vs 3rd year vets and everything else, there’s definitely a chance the 1.8 million + would make a big difference

I’ve run through the numbers many times and under many different cap scenarios, and there’s definitely a much bigger chance it doesn’t make any difference, or that it’s an unimportant one (in the sense of trading Taj Gray).

(and I put the + in there, because we’d have to pay Gordon MORE than the Pistons). He wanted to leave.

Err… of course. And the Bulls didn’t want him back, even at a price you would have licked your chops over. So much for considering this negotiation in a vacuum. Which, while a pleasant fiction for trying to understand the Bulls talent evaluation and negotiation process in a more flattering light, is nonetheless a fiction that no actual party to the negotiations entertained.

To put that differently, I think it’s kinda silly to pull out a hypothetical "I know he didn’t want to be here anymore while consciously setting aside all of the various nincompoopery on the part of the Bulls, who were pretty clearly the guys who didn’t value Gordon (except, you know, when it come time to actually worry about getting those playoff revenues in hand last Spring.

In a vacuum, it might be a reasonable consideration. In context of what actually went on, it’d have been a complete non-issue if the Bulls FO were making sensible decisions about things. But they consistently miss the forest for the trees.

by Sports2 on Jul 19, 2009 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree.

If we’re going to consider Gordon’s desire to NOT be in Chicago, then we should consider the Bulls’ desire to NOT have him in Chicago, either. I guess, perhaps, at the MLE, they may have wanted to keep him. I don’t see how Doug can consider one and not the other.

If we consider that Gordon didn’t want to be here, and that the Bulls didn’t want him here, that makes this whole discussion irrelevant, doesn’t it? We consider the actual desires of both parties and realize that nothing was going to happen no matter what and not really even discuss it. Or we don’t consider either in this hypothetical situation and discuss what “we” would do/want to do. Seems to me like it should be one or the other.

Now, if Doug is saying, “This is what I would do if I were in the Bulls front office…” well, then I think that changes the whole dynamic of the Bulls FO w/ Gordon and maybe he doesn’t want to leave so bad.

People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett

by tyger1147 on Jul 20, 2009 8:12 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Do you really think any of these guys are going as outright free agents.

$40 million more guaranteed is $40 million more guaranteed. I think all but one or two will go as sign-and-trades. Another contract of a good player is very unlikely to be “vastly” overpaid will be an asset in this situation.

I see it as completely the opposite as you. The further the cap falls, it’s not the more room under it that will be valuable. The further the cap falls, the less chance ANY of the players will move as outright sign-and-trades. The further the cap falls, the more important it will be to have valuable assets on decent sized contracts to trade away. I’d almost guarantee right now that Eddy Curry (or Eddy Curry’s contract) is used in a sign-and-trade to get a player to NYK next year.

People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett

by tyger1147 on Jul 19, 2009 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You can go ahead

and make that “almost guarantee” a “guarantee with the utmost confidence.” Curry’s fat ass is moving.

by T-Boogie on Jul 19, 2009 9:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

And Nocioni was still traded for very valuable players.

And if they don’t get “value” out of Gordon, but are merely able to dump the contract (which, again, would be less than what they were able to do with Nocioni, who was vastly overpaid by the time he was traded), how are they in a worse position than they are now? They got nothing for Gordon now, and if they had to just “dump” his contract, they’d get nothing for him then. But as most of us recognize, the chances of Gordon being “worth” less than $9.5 million/year is low. not extremely low, but low nonetheless.

People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett

by tyger1147 on Jul 19, 2009 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nocioni was traded for valuable players because we saved the Kings an assload of money this year, and their franchise is in jeopardy. The Kings did it as a short term cost cutting move.

by dougthonus on Jul 19, 2009 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Where were you doug?

Over Paxon’s tenure as GM, the Bulls have paid a number of players more than Gordon got from Detroit, none of them worth it.

Off the top of my head:
Antonio Davis, PJ Brown, Tim Thomas (1st time), Ben Wallace, Larry Hughes, and Brad Miller.

By my count, that’s 6 years of really big contracts, and Gordon didn’t sign for 6.

Why not pay the best player on the team the past 5 seasons the highest contract on the team instead of stiffs like those I listed?

Gordon never asked for MAX contract dollars. He wanted to be the highest paid on the team. It’s certainly an ego thing, not much different from Michael Jordan who wanted to be the highest paid player in the league.

Paying him the higest salary on the team seems fair enough, he missed only 12 games his entire career and is the only player we have who’s actually among the very best at something (even if it’s one thing) in the whole NBA.

by Denny Crane on Jul 19, 2009 10:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Unless I'm mistaken

Ben Wallace is the only one of those guys the Bulls “gave” a contract to. Not quite the same thing as trading for a guy who improves the team in whatever way (even if that is just the old addition by subtraction) and happens to have an overly large contract someone else decided to give him.

In honor of the dearly departed, I declare July PB&J month - everyone raise a sandwich to the memory of Ben!

by wjb1492 on Jul 19, 2009 11:03 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why are you shitting all over this guy?

Because he doesn’t like Gordon at 11.6 per? And it’s not like he’s coming up with these values from thin air.

by NittanyCub on Jul 18, 2009 5:17 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

I consider them all the time!

It’s only after consideration that I can comment on them, no? Well certainly with someone like Doug. With a few people here I see the byline and automatically discount their opinion.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 18, 2009 6:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

"Because he doesn’t like Gordon at 11.6 per?"

um, yes that’s what I was ‘shitting over’.

I quoted it and everything!

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 18, 2009 6:18 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

wow

now I post too much?

Though I am encouraged that my front page work has such weight.

Doug’s an interesting writer who runs a successful blog and is trying to break into the reporting business. So I don’t think you have anything to worry about in terms of getting the same treatment.

Any KC Johnson fans want to come to his aid too?

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 18, 2009 6:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Didn't you

already take care of KC? ;)

In honor of the dearly departed, I declare July PB&J month - everyone raise a sandwich to the memory of Ben!

by wjb1492 on Jul 18, 2009 7:49 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

that's right, I like him now!

Hanley fans? haha.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 18, 2009 9:15 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

"with that extra couple million you can get guys like Jannero Pargo."

Was I wrong in assuming Yfbb’s JP comment was done with tongue firmly implanted in his cheek? as in if I complemented the organization for signing Ben Wallace for 4 years at only $60 million and extended Luol Deng’s ascending contract for a mere $71 million guaranteed with incentives that could bring it to $80 million. Having screwed the pooch with Gordon, Kirk’s contract is starting to look reasonable, considering they are now as deep as a wading pool at the guard positons. regardless of bringing back the awesome Lindsey Hunter.

If you can't answer a man's arguments, all is not lost. You can still call him vile names.
Elbert Hubbard

by Tyrusmancrush on Jul 18, 2009 5:29 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

you can't just go handing out money...

although you think the 2.6 million extra a year is nothing but pargo, its actually an additional 29 percent salary!!!!! if you pay everyone 29 percent more than they are worth, you are not gonna have the salary needed to build a championship team.

Gordon at 11.6 million is nice and all for a permanent 1st/2nd round exit playoff team, but you can’t be paying non-stars 11.6 million on a championship team. but hey, it’s just 29 percent as you say!

I used to think coaches were overrated...

by blademan88 on Jul 18, 2009 5:42 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

To me is if the Bulls want Gordon or not

at either 9 or 11.6, he’s the starting 2 guard for the next 5 years (or 4 with a player option, apparently). Why offer him a big extension one year and then balk later? Because they cheaped out, not because they had an epiphany over Gordon’s value to the team.

Question: Do you think the Bulls would’ve given Gordon the Pistons contract if they had room under the luxury tax?

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 18, 2009 6:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think they had to beat 11.6 million, but I think even if they had room under the tax that they didn’t like him that much.

by dougthonus on Jul 18, 2009 8:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure I believe that.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 19, 2009 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

"You can't be paying non-stars 11.6"

I’d say that’s pretty normal for a good non-star.

by JeffD on Jul 18, 2009 10:33 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly.

The Lakers and Magic are paying non-stars Rashard Lewis and Bynum a ton of money.

by Basketball Smurf on Jul 18, 2009 10:46 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Doesn't really matter

the Magic realized that they had to sign Lewis to that contract in order to get him to come to Orlando (though, they probably could have signed him for less). The fact that they are overpaying for Lewis is balanced out by the fact they underpay Howard and Nelson.

Winning isn’t about signing each player to the exact amount their worth. Its about acquiring talent and figuring out how that talent best fits together. Orlando was loudly mocked when they signed Rashard to that contract, but a few years later they were in the Finals. They got a good player who could help the team win, he fit what they were doing. They didn’t take his cheaper, nicer replacement.

by Basketball Smurf on Jul 18, 2009 11:13 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

I trust Doug

I remember reading his posts on the yahoo forums. He always posted crazy info that blew my mind away.

by 420man! on Jul 18, 2009 6:03 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

damn yfbb

no disrespect, but somedays u just sounds like a hater

I was watching the 1995 Playoffs VS the Magic's and remembered how much I hated Horace Grant. Horace Grant - i hope you burn in bball hell

by Belize on Jul 18, 2009 6:26 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

not sure.

I interpret the word ‘hating’ as being just for the sake of it. I hate the Org. because they’re screwing up the team I like, at least temporarily.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 18, 2009 6:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

To me its just frustrating

when you can see shitty moves coming two years out.

by JeffD on Jul 18, 2009 10:35 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

contract info correct?

Hi, people,a pistons fan here, but I like the bulls, also. And, I really like this site. Always good information.In that vain, I want to point out that the info on Gordons contract seems wrong.
Mlive [ a newspaper reporting service] reports the contract starts at just under 9.5 mill with escalating increases. With the signing of Wilcox at 3 mill per, and the remaining 1.2 mill left under the cap, these figures seem solid.
I can’t wait for the regular season to start, good luck to the Bulls against everyone but the Pistons!
Heres a link to the Mlive story,
http://blog.mlive.com/fullcourtpress/2009/07/detroit_piston_cap_space_situa.html

by rd123 on Jul 20, 2009 11:08 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Terrible decision to let him go.
You gotta try and keep ur leading scorer and let Miller’s contract off the books next year and trade hinrich for a draft pick or something. Drafting Gibson was dumb too; glad we now have 3 versions of Tyrus Thomas.

by bearsfann on Jul 23, 2009 12:09 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Jesus, can we stop bitching for a bit.

Your seriously making all Bulls fans look like whiney little bitches, and it’s kinda pathetic.

Seriously, you can bitch about the reasons for us not bringing Gordon, blame it on his being cheap, etc. all you want, but to me, it’s quite a simple question. If we re-signed Ben Gordon and kept him for all 5 years of his contract, would we stand a chance to win the NBA Title? To me, that answer is, to be blunt, no. If your gonna be tossing around contracts for more then 10 mill a season, it better be for a player that directly puts you in much stronger position to make a serious run in the playoffs. I don’t think Ben Gordon is that type of player at all.

I really don’t understand the idea of paying him to solidify ourselves as a mediocre first round and out playoff team and taking a gamble at trying to be something more then that. Title or bust.

by Novacain on Jul 28, 2009 11:54 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

don't generalize based on me

I don’t think all Bulls fans are halfwits because of what you write.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 28, 2009 3:25 PM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

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