Optimistic view of BG leaving (I Hope)
by illwill on Jul 1, 2009 11:57 PM CDT
94 comments
I know everyone is down about BG leaving. I was one of the people who wanted to see him stay and become a major factor in us returning to championship glory. I also did not think it was a wise basketball move to pay BG 11 million dollars a year and this is not to defend Cheapskate Jerry the Jerkface. But how many times did we yell at BG for not giving Rose the ball during a fast break? How many times did we yell about needing a taller more prototypical SG to play alongside Rose?
I love BG as much as the next man, but we were not going to win a championship with BG as the starting SG. DET is not going to win a ring with BG as it's starting SG. We also could not afford to pay BG 11 million to come off the bench. I know Kirk is making 10 million to back up Rose, but we got Rose by sheer luck, if we didn't Kirk would still be our starting PG.
The main key for us to make up for BG's scoring is Deng. If Deng can return to form 18 ppg and 7 to 8 rpg / Rose takes a step up in stats 18 to 20 ppg / Salmons gets about 18 ppg at the SG spot and Tyrus improves on his 10.8 ppg from last year to about 12 to 14 ppg we will be fine. Plus Hinrich coming off the pine is at least 10 to 12 ppg and you cannot forget about Miller and the rookie Johnson.
With BG gone I think we will have better ball movement and better team defense. Rose will get more control of the offense and everyone will get more shots. This move proves to me that this is Rose's team and those who do not fit will be discarded (Tyrus you are next). I believe that Kirk will eventually be dealt and we will make a trade for Bosh or STAT at the trade deadline. The next step after that would be for Wade to sign as a free-agent. Having Rose and Bosh on the same roster would motivate Wade to come home. Cheer up Bulls fans the line-up for next season does not look that bad. (I hope)
PG - Rose / Hinrich
SG - Salmons / Hinrich
SF - Deng / Salmons / Johsnon
PF - Thomas / Noah / Johnson / Gibson
C - Noah/ Miller
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I never said the Bulls won't be 'fine'
I want them to be great.
This team is going towards 40 wins again. Vinny Del Negro is the coach. I guess it’s fine.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 2, 2009 12:27 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm curious to how many you thought they would win next year with Ben
by Option27 on Jul 2, 2009 1:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You could project a 46~48 win team next year, with all the pieces of last year in place.
Maybe a little more if you’re optimistic.
Vinny Del Negro Offensive Gameplan, Part 1
-When there's less than 30 seconds left in the game, that's me with my hands cupped around my mouth yelling.
"BEN! SHOOT! SHOOOOTTTT!!! WHY AREN'T YOU LISTENING TO ME?!?"
-This segues nicely into my Timeout Management classes - order now!
by Prevenge on Jul 2, 2009 7:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So you wanna pay 11 million a year for 5 to 7 more wins?
A team most certainly not fit to compete with Boston, Cleveland or Orlando?
Why not save the dough and spend on it a major piece that is gonna add 10 to 15 more wins?
by Option27 on Jul 2, 2009 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
because you're not
automatically gonna land a ‘major piece’ especially if the thought is, “Damn, they just let go of their best player for nothing.”
I’m not saying BG is our best player, but he was a big reason Bulls won games.
So these major pieces, while money is important, seem to be valuing the ability to win as just as important. Bulls take a blow in that dept. thus lessening the chance to add a ‘major piece.’
by kingj41 on Jul 2, 2009 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Detroit traded their best player for nothing
Ben Gordon took their off in a second
by Option27 on Jul 2, 2009 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ben Gordon was not the problem.
Had the Bulls actually done what good teams do and put a TRUE STAR somewhere in the linuep (and I’m not talking about the rookie Derrick Rose), then the Bulls could have been championship contenders. Had the Bulls had a post player capable of scoring double digits on a nightly basis then the Bulls would have been contenders 2 seasons ago, the Bulls would have beaten Boston, perhaps Orlando and would have given Cleveland a run for their money (You can never really say whether or not a team would have won a championship…but the Bulls would have been on the level).
Let’s take for instance Pau Gasol. Had the Bulls actually gotten Gasol for the spare parts that the Lakers picked him up for, the Bulls would have been pretty awesome. Gasol as the #1 option, Gordon/Deng as the #2/#3 guys (or Gordon/Salmons if that Sacramento trade still happens) and with a lineup of either:
Rose/Gordon/Deng/Thomas/Gasol
or
Rose/Gordon/Salmons/Gasol/Noah
The Bulls would have been a completely different team with legitimate perimeter scorers surrounding a top notch post player. No more big men collapsing on Gordon or Rose. Plenty space for driving and creating for Rose or Gordon since Gasol can play close to the basket or out on the floor some.
But I hope you guys are happy. The group of people who blame Ben Gordon for everything. The group of people who saw then end game as BG being the leading scorer on a championship team (How could any of you have been so shortsighted). Gordon filled in as the Bulls #1 option until the Bulls actually moved some of those big contracts and that young talent for a STAR!!! But you never understood.
Now the only real hope I see is if the Bulls somehow get D-Wade. In order for that to happen, I believe the Bulls better start trying to acquire Bosh here soon. If Miami manages to package Beasley and somebody else for Bosh and he goes there then D-Wade is NOT coming to Chicago…and neither is Bosh, nor LeBron, nor Amare, nor Kobe, nor any major player who will be available next summer. Then letting Gordon go looks really bad…unless Salmons turns into a 20ppg scorer.
But as I said in a previous post. I will be reading this blog very carefully for the sole purpose of seeing who the first person is to complain about Salmons not passing to Rose on a break, or Salmons stopping the offense by holding the ball. I can’t wait to read those posts.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Jul 2, 2009 7:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we would've got Gasol....
maybe we dont get Rose because we would’ve been close to playoff contention with Gasol that yr b4 we hit da lotto
CHICAGO MANE!!!!
by YEP on Jul 2, 2009 8:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gasol?!?!?
Anyone who think Gasol is anything but a highly skilled wuss who cannot lead a team in any way shape or form is kidding themselves. When I heard the Lakers got him, I jumped for joy because I don’t want that piece of crap on the Bulls. He’s a 2nd fiddle at best, I absolutely sure that if Memphis accepted the Bulls’ trade offer (which was more than the Lakers gave up), we’d all be bitching about what a bad decision it was.
Screw Gasol. If he wasn’t on the same team as Kobe and didn’t have PJ as his coach, he’d still be wallowing in NBA purgatory. That’s exactly where the Bulls are now, but at least we have Rose – which almost assuredly wouldn’t be the case if we acquired the soft, no defense playing assclown of Gasol.
by kozzer on Jul 2, 2009 9:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you're going to have a band of fiddles, you'll need more than one.
Gasol is maybe the best second fiddle in the game right now. Even when he was wallowing in purgatory, he was one of the most efficient big men in the game. He’s on par with Bosh, and we’re talking about Bosh as a franchise saver (very similar PER over their careers, and although Bosh is better on defense it’s not a huge gap).
by arjoseph on Jul 2, 2009 9:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree.
Gasol cannot be your team’s best player, he’s far too soft. You’ll never win anything that way (see Memphis 0-16 playoff record with Gasol). Similarly with Bosh (also too soft), I don’t think you can win a title with him as your best player either (same for STAT). All 3 are extremely skilled – and, yes, I recognize Gasol is the best 2nd fiddle in the game right now – but not franchise players.
Good thing for the Bulls that we have Rose, and he’s going to be our “best player” assuming we don’t get LeBron or Wade, and so if we do get Bosh or STAT I feel like that’s a great foundation for a championship team.
by kozzer on Jul 2, 2009 9:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My point is less about Gasol than it is about having a better player than Gordon...
…playing next to him. The Bulls were never able to get that guy and by default BG was the teams best player. If the Bulls had acquired another then Gordon would fit comfortably into the #2 or #3 leading scorer role.
If the Bulls front office had done it’s job, Gordon would still be a Bull.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Jul 2, 2009 9:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll give you that
but who was out there to be had without gutting the team?
by kozzer on Jul 2, 2009 9:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Without gutting the team?
I thought the whole idea of “stockpiling” this young talent was to be able to make a move when someone became available. With the pieces the Bulls accumulated (the Great Luol Deng and the indespensible Kirk Hinrich for example), the Bulls should have been able to pry a star or high level player away at some point. Problem was, this young talent hasn’t developed as well as the Bulls thought they would…or they flat out weren’t that good. Gordon was EASILY the best of them. And say what you will about Gasol, but he’s better than anything the Bulls have now and at $15M/yr I think that the 19pts and 10 rbds he gave you this season would have come in handy.
And let’s keep it real for dollar bill right here. The best teammate Pau Gasol had in Memphis was probably Mike Miller or Bonzi Wells. Tell me a star in the league who could have lifted that team from the doldrums. A lot of SUPERSTARS would have gone 0-16 in the playoffs with teammates like that. He would have fared much better on the Bulls teams we’ve had the past couple seasons.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Jul 2, 2009 9:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
gee, isn't it telling
that you’d forget shane battier, lex.
by marionette on Jul 2, 2009 5:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And in truth, what would they be gutting?
It’s not like they’d be breaking up the 98’ Bulls or something. This Bulls team hasn’t won anything. Only the most tremendous stroke of luck made it possible for them to even be a playoff team last season. A monumental one season decline by Detroit and the unreal fortune of having Derrick Rose drop into the Bulls laps. Otherwise, the Bulls were headed for destruction anyway.
So what would the Bulls be gutting if they got rid of some underachievers?
by lexdiamonds0730 on Jul 2, 2009 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You never answered the question:
who was available?
If you’ll remember (or if you read my post), the Bulls offered more to Memphis than the Lakers did, but they made the deal with the Lakers anyway. So you can’t fault the Bulls org for not getting Gasol.
by kozzer on Jul 2, 2009 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Anyone is available for the rigth price.
Except LeBron and D-Wade…and apparently Luol Deng. EVERYONE ELSE IN THE LEAGUE WAS AVAILABLE…EVEN KOBE BRYANT!!
If a guy is remotely unhappy then he’s available.
Anyway, the year the Bulls signed Nocioni, Vince Carter and Rashard Lewis were available. So was Gerald Wallace (Who I think is as good if not better than Deng). Now Lewis got too much money, but the Bulls never even made an effort to court him. With all the “assets” they had they could have tried to make a move for one of these guys (who are better than anything the Bulls have now). Also guys like Emeka Okafor and Iguodala were available. These are guys who could have been gotten in sign and trades since we have “the assets”. Both are more productive than Deng/Hinrich/Thomas have been to this point.
Then in 2006 (the year of Ben Wallace) you had guys like Nene and Stojakovic (who despite some subpar seasons and being quite a bit older than Deng has been about as durable as Deng the last 2 years). Put either of these guys on the Bulls and they are both better than Hinrich/Thomas and arguable Deng.
But again, it didn’t have to be through free agency. The master plan (or so we thought) was for the Bulls to position themselves to have “the pieces” to move come trade deadlines and they haven’t been willing to make the big move. Now they’ve got one more shot at it before Bosh ends up in Miami or based on what I’m hearing, Houston (I don’t know how that happens but it’s being floated).
by lexdiamonds0730 on Jul 2, 2009 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kobe wasn't available
I thought that was common knowledge now. Regardless, if you assume Kobe was actually available via a trade, remember he had/has that no trade clause (only one in the league). Kobe said he would approve a trade to the Bulls ONLY if the Bulls kept Deng, however the Lakers said they wouldn’t make the trade if Deng wasn’t included. So it was a catch-22, and that’s assuming Kobe was actually available, which he wasn’t.
Rashard Lewis was going for a huge payday, and in any case he is a perimeter-oriented PF which is and wasn’t what the Bulls need. I dunno about Vinsanity, but I’m glad he didn’t come to the Bulls. He has the skills to be an all-time great, but settles on his talent alone, without putting a lot of work in, like the Great ones do. I like Gerald Wallace a lot, and in fact think’s marginally better than Deng, but at the time Deng was coming off that 17/7 season. Okafor is Elton Brand pt II, a good stat guy, but not a “foundation” guy, and is undersized. Iguodala was drafted as the new core player for the 76ers, the new AI. Plus, again, he plays SG/SF and we had too many perimeter guys. I don’t think he would have made the team better considering what the Bulls would have had to give up to get him.
Ben Wallace was a mistake, that is clear. But everyone seemed to like the signing at the time, getting a 4-time DPOY in a weak FA class. Didn’t work out, but at least they tried. Nene had serious medical issues (i.e. cancer) and only last season fully recovered. Peja is a spot up shooter and can pass a little bit, but that’s about it. Similar to BG. Plus he was overpaid, and I’m sure the Hornets fans aren’t exactly looking at that signing with fondness these days.
by kozzer on Jul 2, 2009 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did you not read the last paragraph?
You just ran down all the free agents (and hindsight is 20/20 and it’s very easy to talk about what those guys aren’t now…much the way we can see what Deng isn’t), but CLEARLY ignored the fact that I said that getting a STAR doesn’t have to be done through free agency. The “ASSETS” the Bulls accumulated could have been used in trades for someone other than Kobe Bryant (and that’s what I meant when I said EVERYONE IS AVAILABLE at the right price).
Now you never answered my question. What exactly would the Bulls have been “gutting” by trading the assets they supposedly acquired for the express purposes of picking up a STAR at some point?
by lexdiamonds0730 on Jul 2, 2009 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But I talked about trades, too?
Actually, I wasn’t being specific as to how the players would get here, just talking about the players you brought up.
And what would they have been gutting? The entire team. You talk as if nobody on the Bulls has any basketball skills. Teams were asking for Deng, BG, Tyrus AND Noah to be part of the trades. So, what then. We get Gasol/Kobe/Garnett and who else would we have had? Hinrich? Nocioni? We most likely would not have Rose if any major trade happened.
by kozzer on Jul 2, 2009 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also
another team has to be willing to make the trade. You say “everyone is available”, which in principle I agree with (aside from LBJ or Wade), but the price for that player can be too high. So what players would have been available at a price where we aren’t a worse version of the Cavs (1 great player, 1 good player, and a bunch of scrubs)?
And all those opinions I stated about the players you brought up are the opinions I’ve had for a long time. It remains true – that unless you can come up with a scenario I’m missing – there was almost zero opportunity to improve the team significantly via trades or FA.
by kozzer on Jul 2, 2009 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, what was the purpose of accumulating assets?
Isn’t this what the Bulls organization has been saying for years now? They want to accumulate pieces that they can move in order to make a blockbuster deal.
I don’t know if they players have enough value to do that. Gordon was one guy who did. Somebody would have taken a 20ppg guy at $10 – $11M/yr in a deal if the Bulls had re-signed him. He was one Bulls piece that gained value instead of losing it.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Jul 2, 2009 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There wasn't much
that could be done which was worth doing.
Gasol wasn’t worth it. I don’t care how much everyone thinks he’s so great at the moment, but the Memphis fan base hated him while he was there, because he can’t lead a team. That’s what we were going to bring him in for, yes? To be the “guy” on the Bulls? Again, the Bulls offered Memphis more than LA did anyway. (when Jerry West, former Laker was the Memphis GM).
KG was a similar situation. We offered more than Boston did, but Minnesota went with Boston’s offer anyway (when McHale was their GM, and former teammate Danny Ainge is Boston’s GM).
As I said, Kobe was never available.
So, tell me, what blockbuster dynasty building trade/signing did the Bulls miss out on? It’s easy to say they’ve “done nothing” with their assets (I hate that Paxdorf-term, like they’re a mutual fund or something – but I guess that’s exactly what they are to JR). But the fact remains that when there was something worth “spending” the players on, the Bulls tried to do it (and failed), but there hasn’t been a whole lot of quality players available like that. Teams are usually extremely hesitant to trade all-stars in their prime.
by kozzer on Jul 2, 2009 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
the Memphis fan base hated
a guy who consistently got them 50 wins a season? Well, how do they feel now?
by Basketball Smurf on Jul 2, 2009 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, to be fair,
they also had other good players. But point taken. I think people are pretty much dissatisfied all the time, almost without regard to the teams’ success. Except for Cubs fans, of course.
Depending on how their new core shapes up over the next couple of years, they might be recalling the glory days of getting swept in the first round 4 years in a row (or whatever it was).
by kozzer on Jul 2, 2009 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Those were the two VERY HIGH profile cases.
But like I said, make the offers and see what you can get. But that all depends on how others viewed the Bulls assets. Slowly but surely, everybody else saw in Hinrich and Deng what we’ve seen for a while.
But tell me kozzer. Do you REALLY think that Pau Gasol wouldn’t have been far and away the best player on the Bulls? Are you serious?
by lexdiamonds0730 on Jul 2, 2009 4:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gasol would have been the best player
not sure if I’d say “far and away”, though, but definitely the best. I just don’t like his game, don’t think he’s got any leadership skills or toughness, and wouldn’t have led the Bulls to greener pastures than we’ve seen since those trade talks happened.
Gasol is great as a sidekick to a superstar – such as Kobe. But that’s about it. Plus, he’s a horrible defender (aside from a blocked shot here and there), and I’d much rather have great defense than great offense. And this is probably the primary reason why I don’t like Vinny all that much.
by kozzer on Jul 2, 2009 5:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No player by himself is worth it
Which is why, ya know, you’ve got to take a broader perspective and consider where you can got with the team.
I look at a team with Rose, Gordon, Deng, Noah, a talented rookie and (if they moved Kirk) max cap space, and think they have a real chance of adding Bosh while still keep enough pieces to content for quite a while.
With Gordon, you’re down one more good player who, while not a superstar, is certainly a building block that’s pretty hard to come by. I don’t think that same team with Hinrich, for example, works as well, because Gordon creates a lot that Kirk doesn’t. And beyond that, Gordon’s age is in line with those other guys by a couple more years than Kirk.
So yeah, you’re right. Building a dynasty is incredibly hard to do. By letting Gordon walk, they’ve made it even more difficult, because now even pulling a miracle trade isn’t enough. You need a miracle trade or signing to get that superstar, and then you need a second unlikely move on top of it just to add another guy.
Asking for one miracle is hard enough. Asking for two in a row is really pushing it.
by Sports2 on Jul 2, 2009 9:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
About the Boston/Minnesota trade
I disagree that the Bulls had a better offer… Boston gave Minnesota Al Jefferson (and half their team) in that KG trade.
by 420man! on Jul 5, 2009 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kozzer, you nailed it!!!!!
Exactly my opinion!
by SlamDunk on Jul 2, 2009 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gasol was the number one option...
In memphis. Remember how good they were? Gasol is not a scoring machine, go to guy or anything like what you are painting him to be. He does however fit perfectly with Kobe.
by BigforkBullsFan on Jul 2, 2009 5:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You nailed it!!!!!
Let the selfish one-dimensional player go! This team with the right moves will be better without him next season. Rose will be better, Noah and every other key player to the Bulls’ fruture will be better without Mr. Me.
by SlamDunk on Jul 2, 2009 12:35 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
this is a character you're doing, right?
just so we’re clear.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 2, 2009 12:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
total shtick
it gets one noticed
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Jul 2, 2009 8:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Pistons also took themseleves out of the 2010 arms race
by signing BG and Charlie V to large contracts. Once we trade Hinrich for either Blake and Rudy or Blake and Outlaw then trade Deng or Salmons and Tyrus to the Raps for Bosh we will look smart.
Homecoming
by illwill on Jul 2, 2009 12:45 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
a lot can happen before 2010
the Pistons weren’t in the 2009 FA picture at this time last year.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 2, 2009 12:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
True
I hope we trade for Bosh this summer, but I think the Raps are still in denial.
Homecoming
by illwill on Jul 2, 2009 12:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How come?
He would be perfect with Rose.
Homecoming
by illwill on Jul 2, 2009 1:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not really
Wade and Bosh would be perfect for Rose. A man can dream.
Homecoming
by illwill on Jul 2, 2009 1:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sure the Raptors will want Rose in the deal,
making it a no deal.
by Ariel112 on Jul 2, 2009 1:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Look man, everybody can't sign LeBron/D-Wade/Bosh or Stoudemire.
Detroit figures they can’t wait on that.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Jul 2, 2009 7:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What if they trade Hamilton and a 1st-round pick for expiring contracts?
Won’t they have enough to go after a max free agent next year? I thought they would. (The answer is that, Yes, they will.)
(Stolen from sports2)
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Jul 2, 2009 8:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes they would
They will have about 20 mil
Isn’t Detriot against max contracts?
"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."
- fundamentallysound
by J Theory on Jul 2, 2009 9:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, no. It's likely the Pistons will be able to offer 1 max contract in 2010
by hitlesswonder on Jul 2, 2009 9:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
...
…it’s possible Dumars could put Detroit back in position to make a run at a player in 2010 by trading Tayshaun Prince and/or Maxiell for expiring contracts. Unfortunately for the Pistons, it is now their division rival Chicago that is well-placed to add a major piece in free agency in 2010.
"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."
- fundamentallysound
by J Theory on Jul 2, 2009 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good post it just wasnt worth it to sign BG even though i liked him alot
as a sixth man
by DSamonek on Jul 2, 2009 3:56 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
And what would have been wrong with signing him as a 6th man to a 5yr/$55M deal?
Isn’t that basically what Hinrich is going to be…without the offensive ability? That would make Gordon the Bulls 3rd highest paid player (which is where most of you figure a player of his ability should be…I disagree but that’s another matter).
And I don’t wanna hear about how he can play PG too (Rose will play 40+ minutes so that’s no big deal) and he plays defense. 6th men are there to SCORE and offensively impact the game. The next 6th man of the year who is an all-NBA defender will be the 1st that I’m aware of.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Jul 2, 2009 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gordon hurt himself too
He could have signed a similar deal with the Bulls two years ago and been looking at his second FA signing in his prime in the summer of 2011. This will cost him big bucks over the course of his career.
by chlutz508 on Jul 2, 2009 7:54 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
that's incorrect.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 2, 2009 8:45 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
With Detroit signing BG and CVill
I hope the Detroit fans are tired of seeing good defense. I assume that the Pistons trade Rip, who’s an above average (but not great) defender, that leaves them with exactly one good defensive player: Prince.
They have no legit front court players after Maxiell took a step backwards last season, and Stucky is probably already approaching his ceiling. Their backcourt is undersized and without a true PG.
by kozzer on Jul 2, 2009 9:09 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Let's put it like this
We are not good enough or in the position to have the luxury of signing a player like Ben for 11 mil per season. It was best that he move on and the org move on. If we were a better team Ben would have been resigned.
If we were real contenders the team would have no problem paying the luxury tax.
"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."
- fundamentallysound
by J Theory on Jul 2, 2009 9:12 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
BG=AI
Not sure if this has been discussed at all but doesn’t Ben Gordon remind you of a younger Iverson without the passing ability?? He’s a 2nd/3rd option at best. I know lots of people loved Gordon in the series against the Celtics but when you look back at his numbers and see that he didn’t even shoot 39%, do you really miss a guy like that? I don’t, I’m glad the Bulls didn’t choose to over pay for a one dimensional player we need to build around Rose this was step one even if it does make the team worse at first.
by da bulls on Jul 2, 2009 9:15 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Not really.
They are incredibly different players. Iverson is/was an inefficient shooter who was nevertheless unstoppable when he dribbled — he could always get a shot, and could always break down a defense. Also, he’s one of the best ever at drawing fouls. Gordon, on the other hand, is a super-high efficiency shooter who does well not to dribble — it’s not that he can’t, it’s more that he never conditioned himself to have the control of a PG; he’ll make cardinal mistakes like jumping before he knows he can make a pass, or dribble into a trap, etc. If he has a clear path, he can certainly make a move and get to the bucket, but he’s nowhere near Iverson (just as Iverson is nowhere near Ben as a shooter).
On defense they’re pretty different, too. While both undersized, Gordon relied on defensive fundamentals and his strength to do his best. Really, if Ben were 6’6", he’d be way above average on defense as he knows how to move his feet and play angles. Iverson was never interested in fundamental defense, but was one of the best gambling defenders ever — playing passing lanes and picking pockets (and giving up free lanes to the basket every once in a while, too).
But they are both short, so there’s one similarity.
(As for using his percentages from the Celtics series, you’re depending on a pretty small sample size there. You should also keep in mind that many more of Ben’s shots are worth a potential 3 points, offsetting some of the percentage. Even with taking longer shots, Ben is a full percentage point better than Iverson in FG% over their careers.)
by arjoseph on Jul 2, 2009 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
point taken
on their styles being very different cause yea they are. Both are still inefficient scorers and while Ben shot more long ranged shots, AI was shooting around more big men in the lane so he had many more FT attempts. I just don’t think you can win a championship with an undersized SG.
by da bulls on Jul 2, 2009 9:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
BG's actually a very efficient scorer.
His TS% was 57.3% this year, which if you weed out all of the people with crappy usage rates puts him in the top 10 or 15. [ish. I can’t see the full stats since I’m using ESPN/am lazy.]
Vinny Del Negro Offensive Gameplan, Part 1
-When there's less than 30 seconds left in the game, that's me with my hands cupped around my mouth yelling.
"BEN! SHOOT! SHOOOOTTTT!!! WHY AREN'T YOU LISTENING TO ME?!?"
-This segues nicely into my Timeout Management classes - order now!
by Prevenge on Jul 2, 2009 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you ever consider that part of the reason Gordon has to shoot the shots he does is because...
…no other Bull has the heart to take the shots? Be honest now. Who would you rather have shoot big shots on the old Bulls teams than Ben Gordon? I can see you saying Derrick Rose, but Rose came through less often in the clutch than Ben Gordon did last year. Also, I think all the defensive attention being paid to Gordon played a large part in that 39%.
Funny though how you point out that Gordon shot .396% and conveniently left out the fact that Salmons shot .401%from the field without seeing half the defensive attention that Gordon saw. Or that Gordon had 8 turnovers in 7 games while Salmons had almost twice as many and didn’t handle the ball near as much as Gordon did. Or that Gordon only averaged 3 assists, yet Salmons barely averaged over two.
As for saying Gordon is like Iverson, in as much as they both score and are undersized then yes. But that’s where the comparisons stop. Gordon is a completely different guy than Iverson. Here, take the word of a Detroit Free Press writer:
“Gordon, like Allen Iverson, is an undersized shooting guard, an electrifying scorer and a questionable defender. Unlike Iverson, Gordon is a consummate professional who is comfortable coming off the bench if that’s what his coach asks. His attitude is impeccable. Pistons fans will love him.
Gordon is also a much more efficient player than Iverson was. He shot 45.5% from the field this season, an outstanding percentage for a 6-foot-3 guard who shoots as many three-pointers as he does.
And speaking of shooting three-pointers: Gordon does it as well as anybody in the league and should give the Pistons a component they lost when they traded Chauncey Billups. Gordon is a career 41.5% three-point shooter. For comparison’s sake: Reggie Miller’s career percentage was 39.5 and Billups’ is 38.8."
There is your Allen Iverson comparison. The key was always to surround Gordon with better players. By better players, I mean players who have a higher ceiling than him. As talented as Deng is, he never outproduced Gordon (except in that one series against the Miami Heat where he averaged 26 pts…but even then Gordon averaged 25 and 5 assists). Now the Pistons have a guy who is probably better (Hamilton) and will have the money to go get a guy who is definitely better (a free agent next season or possibly even a Hamilton trade) and Gordon won’t have to be the top gun like he was on the Bulls. And this role will suit him just fine…and he will thrive in it.
All the while he gets to play for an organization that really gives a damn about basketball…unlike the guy who owns the Bulls.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Jul 2, 2009 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Need confirmation on Gordon's height
Gordon 6ft. 3in. ? Not sure of that. Looks a flat 6ft. the best.
by SlamDunk on Jul 4, 2009 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
As for BG not being a championship-type starting SG
I think one of the podcasters made the point a while ago that if BG were a starting SG on a better team, he’d win a championship. Sure, Ray-Ray’s taller, but he still can’t play D, and he got a ring. BG’s not like an AI who demands and dominates the ball at the PG position and has the team at his beck and call. I agree that he won’t win a championship in Detroit. But it’s not because BG is BG; it’s because the Pistons are the Pistons and they suck.
Just wondering, though, if we signed BG at the beginning of 2008, does the trade for Salmons and Miller still happen? Salmons knowing that he’s going to be on the bench when Deng comes back in 2009-2010 would have had some consequences, right?
by halnat on Jul 2, 2009 9:34 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Well then we trade Salmons this offseason
Doh
by halnat on Jul 2, 2009 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think we should have signed BG last year
but Cheapskate Jerry blew it. The writting was on the wall when they made the Salmons trade.
Homecoming
by illwill on Jul 2, 2009 4:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thank God for this post. You get a rec!!!
This is a legitimate other view to not signing BG and deserves to be out there. Thank you!
by chgobr on Jul 2, 2009 1:07 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm not understanding all the Ben Gordon Man love on here....
he is a good not great scorer(DATS IT!!!) He defense is horrible, he turns the ball over too much….no more 4 guard lineups!!!!!no more GIANT KILLERS!!! I think at the very least we will be a better defensive team w/out him
CHICAGO MANE!!!!
by YEP on Jul 2, 2009 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We will have better D
The main thing we lost with BG was his balls to take the last shot. Now is the time for Rose to grow up and become the man.
Homecoming
by illwill on Jul 2, 2009 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you think the small ball lineups are going to end, then you're delusional
Rose/Hinrich/Salmons will be in play a lot.
The Chicago Bulls.....the more profitable Los Angeles Clippers.
by Ozzie Montana on Jul 2, 2009 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thats a whole lot better than Rose/Gordon/Hinrich/Salmons.....
I like Ben dont get me wrong…he had a knack for hittin some of the craziest shots ever..People are saying we’ll be in the lottery next yr…come on now lets get serious people!!!! I still think we’ll make the playoffs next yr….and the Pistons prolly still wont make it!!
CHICAGO MANE!!!!
by YEP on Jul 2, 2009 10:51 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree with your post, except for
when you said he’s a good not great scorer. In my opinion, BG is a great scorer. Aside from the ELITE players, who’s a better scorer than he is? And I’m not talking PPG, rather the ability to put the ball in the basket in the pure sense.
by kozzer on Jul 2, 2009 5:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you
I was down that BG left too, but we have to move on now it is not the end of the world. BG was good, but it is not like Rose left town.
Homecoming
by illwill on Jul 2, 2009 4:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
In short time he will after his rookie contract nearly expires after rejecting Bulls offers
After he’s witnesses this team isn’t commit in bringing in competitive players to win championship.
Cleveland’s made an effort at least with LBJ, Chicago will be irrogant, as usually, and will fake it and act like they want to win by bringing in the likes of a broken down Vince Carter after his 2nd Orlando Magic contract expires for less than MLE and say .. see we got Vince Carter and obtain KG in 3 years from now.
You know just like (1st round pick Joe Smith, or former all-star Ben Wallace) always pass their prime and for peanuts.
There is a fake strategy to this madness?
man up!
by exult463 on Jul 2, 2009 5:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
They won't be in too bad of shape?
STARTERS———— BENCH
PG-Rose————- PG-Hinrich
SG-Salmons -—— SG-Hinrich
SF-Deng————- SF-James Johnson® .Tim Thomas
PF-Tyrus————- PF-Taj Gibson®
C-Noah————— C-Brad Miller
That is a strong overall defensive team,& I think the rookies will be able to step up and help the squad this year. If they can find another free agent backup SG or a 3 point specialist(Maybe Anthony Parker, from Naperville???) this team will be GOOD. Also they will be in Great shape for the 2010 free agent class(Wade, Bosh, Paul Pierce, Joe Johnson, Amare, Manu, Dirk, Michael Redd, T-MAC, Boozer, & Lebron) Things are not as bad as most fans think, GO BULLS!!!!!!
by Jesus Presley on Jul 2, 2009 6:43 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
"James Johnson" and "Taj Gibson" are registered trademarks?
"Whoever was responsible for pulling that offer [to Ben Gordon] off the table...bring him before me and I'll punch him right in the face " - Frederick Pfeiffer
by Granny Waiters on Jul 2, 2009 7:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, Website made it that way????
I put an R next to the rookies, & that happened? But both of them are gonna but good NBA players!
by Jesus Presley on Jul 2, 2009 7:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Detroit Tampering?
Hey apologies if this was covered elsewhere, there’s over a thousand comments since I logged on last night…
But I have been wondering if the NBA will look into whether Detroit had early conversations with Ben. As we all know, his agent was out flapping his gums that the Pistons had already made an offer a week before the FA period began. As the terms of the deal turned out to be exactly what was stated as offered, that seems pretty blatant.
Does it matter for the Bulls? No. This would have happened either way—-but I’d love to see another team in the division hobbled similarly to the Twolves a few years back over Joe Smith…
by jmogs on Jul 2, 2009 8:08 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Its the Pistons; bad boys then, bad boys for all time.
It wouldn’t surprise me if they did do a little tampering.
"You never got me down, Ray. Ya hear me? Never got me down."
-Jake Lamotta
by The Red Menace on Jul 2, 2009 11:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And btw..
Whats with all the VDN bashing? What did you expect him to do? Take the Bulls to the Finals?! ITS HIS FIRST YEAR FOR GODS SAKE!!! GIVE HIM A FREAKIN BREAK!!! NOT EVERY COACH CAN BE PHIL JACKSON!! Look, we all know why JR hired him instead of Dantoni.(Cheep) But on the flipside of that: I like the fact that hes fresh blood and not another one these old coaches being recycled around the league!!
"You never got me down, Ray. Ya hear me? Never got me down."
-Jake Lamotta
by The Red Menace on Jul 3, 2009 12:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Last year was a learning phase
this year will be the true test for VDN.
Homecoming
by illwill on Jul 3, 2009 1:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree totally.
Obviously we’re not winning it all this year. But as you said our passing and defense will improve because of Bens’ abscence. Plus, i can totally see our two rookies getting off to a great start, especially James Johnson. I’m trying to be positive but god help me its hard to be a Bulls fan. This organization is basically betting on success in 2010 with the souls of the fans. Unless Lebron DWade or Bosh actually says: “I don’t wanna play for the Bulls.” I expect to see two of these players in a Bulls jersey!!! (preferably James and Bosh.) If the Bulls do nothing next season i don’t think i can support them anymore.
"You never got me down, Ray. Ya hear me? Never got me down."
-Jake Lamotta
by The Red Menace on Jul 3, 2009 8:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Draft picks
at 16 and 26 typically don’t contribute year 1 on good teams, they eat minutes at best.
by bullschwaa on Jul 3, 2009 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Point taken.
But you never know. The Bulls arent your typical team.
"You never got me down, Ray. Ya hear me? Never got me down."
-Jake Lamotta
by The Red Menace on Jul 3, 2009 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Bulls will be able to make one max offer, that's it
And management has decided that the only decent fit is Bosh. Once he signs with Miami or New York, the Bulls will be left with begging Nowitzki or Okur or Boozer to sign. To recap:
Success: Okur or Boozer
Failure: nobody
Probably Delusional: Bosh
Absolutely Delusional: Bosh and Lebron
by hitlesswonder on Jul 3, 2009 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think STAT or Bosh
will be on our roster by the trade deadline and we can pursue Wade or Johnson in the summer of 2010.
Homecoming
by illwill on Jul 4, 2009 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Optimistic view: This moves us closer to everyone determining that Paxson is the true idiot! And he must Go!
Many negative feeling are being expressed, but in the end analysis.. Paxson is solely to blame for the loss of Ben Gordon and not Reinsdorf.
Although Reinsdorf does stupid things, Paxson sets the stage for Reinsdorf to be stupid and make stupid decisions.
http://www.blogabull.com/2009/7/2/936139/a-brief-history-of-ben-gordon-the#17750525
Gar is Paxson’s press secretary and not worthy of involving…
man up!
by exult463 on Jul 3, 2009 9:51 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Deng scoring
Try to replacing BG scoring by Deng ????? That’s asking too much for Deng, as he doesn’t have a clue on Vinny offensive, and Vinny has no clue how to use Deng (well, I don’t think has a plan for anyone anyway.) We will hear Deng’s complain when the season starts.
by Calvin X on Jul 4, 2009 1:02 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Well, when we win 89-86 instead of lose 105-101
we only have to make up 8 points, assuming BG scores 20/game. Can the Bulls do that? Not a problem.
by hlac on Jul 5, 2009 11:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is Scott Skiles coming back to coach the team?
The Chicago Bulls.....the more profitable Los Angeles Clippers.
by Ozzie Montana on Jul 6, 2009 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We'll be fine.
That lineup really doesn’t look all that bad. Salmons is 6’6 guy with decent lateral quickness. He will provide better defense than Ben and will be able to post up smaller guards. Plus with Ben gone, our offense flows much better and Rose will get much more control of the ball. Combine all that with an improved Tyrus (hopefully) and Joakim Noah, it’s a good starting lineup.
As for the bench, Hinrich will be able to play point and shooting guard, possibly some small forward during small ball situations. Let’s not forget about our two rookies either, I really hope James Johnson can play well so we can say our front office made a good choice for once. I’m actually expecting about 44 wins, give or take.
by KJBidz on Jul 9, 2009 1:37 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
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