The Trouble with Tyrus in 2008-09
[Note by your friendly BullsBlogger, 06/06/09 9:32 AM CDT: From the FanPosts. Purely epic.]
I'm a Tyrus Thomas guy. I've been a Tyrus Thomas guy since before we drafted him. I loved his fire at LSU and his shot blocking and the highlight dunks and all that he brought to the table. I loved his tremendous upside potential. In his first two years for the Bulls, I loved his productivity and hated that Skiles didn't get him more playing time.
This year, I wanted and expected him to improve. This year, I was left disappointed. That's not to say that Tyrus didn't improve in some areas. His jumper seemed to improve over the course of this year, especially after his awful start to the year shooting the ball, but overall Tyrus regressed this year.
Now, let's look at some numbers to back up these assertions and try to figure out what Tyrus did wrong this year, and what he can do to improve next year (assuming he's with the team).
To start let's go to the beginning (Tyrus's rookie year) to see what made Tyrus so successful as a first year player:
Tyrus's shot selection on the offensive end was perfect for a player of his limited skill level as a rookie. He took 72% of his shots from inside, and dunked it on almost a third of his shots. When we look at his hotspots chart from his rookie year, we can see why he chose not to shoot from outside:
It's pretty clear Tyrus couldn't really shoot from outside his first year in the league, and he wisely chose not to do so. He did a pretty good job of finishing on the inside. He managed to only slightly hurt the team's offense (-.4 when he was on the court versus when he was off) when he was out on the floor as a first year player, but he more than made up for it with exceptional defense. Check out his on/off stats from that year:
So, what made up Tyrus's exceptional contributions on defense as a rookie? Well, let's look at it through the spectrum of the Four Factors (eFG%, TOV%, Reb%, and FT/FGA). The most important part of basketball success is eFG% - basically shooting better than the other team. This is hardly groundbreaking. But look at just how much Tyrus effected the game when he was in there on defense. The Bulls own eFG% was unchanged by Tyrus's presence, but they allowed an eFG 4.2% lower than when he was off the court. That's huge. So huge in fact that it was able to overcome Tyrus's neutral to below average performances in the other Four Factors areas on defense. Tyrus had no impact on net turnovers as a rookie (the Bulls forced slightly more turnovers with him on the floor, but they turned it over slightly more with Tyrus in the game). The Bulls DReb% went down with Tyrus in the game, but their offensive rebounding went up with him in. (This is probably part of how he mitigated his limited offensive abilities as a rookie.) The drop off in DReb% when he was out there versus when he was not was not enough to overcome all he did in preventing the other team from getting good looks - evidenced by the drastically reduced eFG%. Tyrus also fouled, a lot. He averaged 6 fouls per 36 minutes of playing time. Not exactly great for keeping down the other teams FTA. But again, that shot blocking and altering ability really, really helped to the tune of a 4.0 point advantage on defense with Tyrus in versus Tyrus out.
Next, let's see how Tyrus progressed from his first to his second year. Let's start again with his shot selection on offense:
Tyrus took a big leap in the amount of jumpers he took in year 2 versus year 1 (28% up to 47%), but he also had a good deal more success with the jumpers he took (eFG% rose from abysmal at .200 to just bad at .352). It was clear that he was working on adding that jumper to his game, and we can see that he added many more attempts and many more makes, though still not the percentage you'd like to see him hit. The real problem for Tyrus (and the hotspots below highlights this) was how much his ability to finish inside dropped off from year one.
Looking back up at the 82 games shot selection data, it's clear why Tyrus wasn't finishing as well. He was getting fewer dunks. He went from 29% of his shot attempts being dunks to just 16%. He also was not nearly as effective at tipping the ball in, in his second year, but tips accounted for such a small part of his shot attempts that this hardly matters. It was about Tyrus not being able to get to the rim like he did in his first year. I think this was a product of the offense not being run as well as it had been the previous year and because Tyrus didn't cut as well as he did in his first year. Also, Tyrus had taken a more perimeter oriented approach, shown by the great increase in the number of jumpers he took, so that he was further away from the basket to begin with so the opportunities for dunks were fewer and farther between. On the brighter side, Tyrus became, at least for that year, a much better passer. He improved his AST% to 11.0% up from 6.6% as a rookie, and he cut down on his TOV% from 20.8% as a rook to just 13% in his second year. This was probably partially a side effect of passing lanes opening for Tyrus as his jumper became an actual weapon, albeit a rather weak one. Despite Tyrus's decreased efficiency scoring the ball, he managed to improve in terms of his individual impact on the offense marginally. As a rookie, he had been a slight negative. In his second year, he became neutral. His ORtg also improved from 95 to 101.
Tyrus's defense slipped somewhat from its lofty rookie level heights. His DRtg went from a sterling 93 (which led the league, as a rookie) to a 103, and as shown by the on/off data above, the Bulls net points per 100 possessions when he was in versus when he was out on defense in his second year dropped to 3.7 versus the 4.0 he posted his rookie year. It occurs to me that I should probably note when using this on / off data that back-up effects are highly involved here. But, looking at the other data (i.e. DRtg slippage, Tyrus's drop in individual DReb%, Blk%, and Stl %), I feel pretty safe in saying that his defense was slightly better as a rookie. Not coincidentally, his first year was an all year Skiles affair with no bumbling B%$#@lan and no Skiles quitting on the team. It's amazing what a good coach can do for defense.
Another thing that jumps out is that Tyrus's ability to alter shots to lower the other team's eFG% largely disappeared in year 2. In his first year, teams shot eFG% 4.2 percentage points lower with him on the court and then as a second year player team's actually shot a better eFG% with him on the floor versus not. Whether that was a result of Tyrus not being as good of position - due to lack of coaching, his own lack of awareness, or some combination of the two, I'm not sure. In perhaps somewhat related news, Tyrus was less reckless with getting whistles and reduced his personal fouls per 36 down to 4.6 from 6 as a rookie. You can make a good argument that Tyrus's more controlled play on the defensive end actually limited his effectiveness. As a rookie, Tyrus literally seemed to be everywhere on defense, but he also got whistled a lot, and as a result found himself on the bench too often. It's unclear to me what accounts for the change in Tyrus's effectiveness at reducing eFG%, but it's certainly clear that it happened. But in the interest of time, and because it's easy, I'll blame B#@%an and move on.
In year 2, team defensive rebounding improved with Tyrus on the court versus not, but his own individual DR% stayed the same. While his OR% dropped, this was probably related to Tyrus playing a more perimeter oriented game.
All in all though, last year was a still a pretty great success for Tyrus as he posted the team's best 1 year adjusted plus minus, at +4.97, according to basketballvalue's numbers (insert caveats about the noise of those numbers, here). His improved passing and reduced turnovers, combined with his increased ability to space the floor, relatively speaking of course, contributed to him being an average to slightly below average offensive player and he continued to be a big defensive force, if not at the quite the same level he was a rookie.
Finally, we arrive at this year, which was a very up and down affair for Tyrus Thomas and those who follow him closely. One trend that held up was Tyrus's increased use of the outside shot.
Tyrus jumped up to using 55% of his shot attempts on jumpers. Up from 47% the previous year, and just 28% his rookie year. Unfortunately for Tyrus, and Bulls fans, was that he did not see the same leap in effectiveness on his jumper that he had between year 1 and year 2. In fact, his eFG% on jumpers was nearly identical this year relative to last, .350 versus .352, respectively. On the up side, in terms of Tyrus's shot selection, more of his attempts by percentage this year were dunks than the year before, 17% versus 14% last year. Unfortunately, his eFG% on dunks was just .883 this year versus .921 last year. However, Tyrus counteracted that by being more effective on "Close" attempts that were not dunks (eFG% up to .390 from .338) and tip ins. Tyrus's total eFG% was up slightly to .453 from .424 from the year before. He also got to the line more frequently netting 5.0 FTA per 36 versus 4.7 the year before and converted those attempts at a higher clip (78.3% vs. 74.1%). Add it all up and Tyrus clocked in with his highest TS% of his career at .525.
Tyrus's hotspots chart from this year (above) looks like a combination of the previous two years. The first year he was finishing inside and nothing else, then his second year he was struggling inside, but increasing his shooting touch. This year he had his midrange game going (relatively speaking for Tyrus) and was finishing pretty well inside. It would seem then that Tyrus probably had a pretty good year on offense, but what do the on / off stats say?
Tyrus looks terrible by the on / off stats here. He clocks in at a -6.6 on offense and and a +.4 on defense (which is actually a bad thing) for a net point differential when he was on the court versus when he was off of -6.9. Now, again, insert the caveats about these numbers being unadjusted for the teammates Tyrus played with and who he played against and who his backups are. Still, these numbers are pretty ugly for Tyrus. The adjusted numbers for this year are not much prettier, basketballvalue lists Tyrus as the worst on the team in 1-year adjusted plus minus. He clocks in at a terrible -7.82, albeit with a standard error of 3.85, so take it for what it's worth. The 2 year numbers are more friendly to Tyrus, but that's just because they add his data from last year (when he lead the team in APM) to the sample to reduce noise.
So why was the offense so bad with Tyrus on the floor versus when he was off? Well, he reverted back to being bad at passing. His AST% dropped from 11% last year to a career low 5.5%, he turned the ball over slightly more (13.6% versus 13.0%), and as a result the team did not get good looks when Tyrus was in the game. This can be seen from the 3.2% drop in eFG% from when Tyrus was in the game versus when he wasn't. Oddly enough, though, there were a great many more assisted FGs when Tyrus was in the game versus not. So it appears Tyrus wasn't hindering the ball movement, despite not racking up many assists himself. Though, it could just be that Tyrus played a lot of minutes with the better assistmen on the team and so his lack of assists didn't matter and were easily overcome by those guys. Tyrus also didn't hit the offensive glass. His individual OR% dropped to 7.8%, a career low, and team rebounding (offensive, defensive, and total) was lower with Tyrus on the floor versus when he was off of it.
On defense, Tyrus was again unable to impact the other team's ability to make shots, as the other team's eFG% was about the same with or without Tyrus, and in fact was slightly better even with the shotblocking Thomas out there. This combined with Tyrus's lack of defensive rebounding lead to the Bulls being worse off on defense with Tyrus out there versus not. This is something that would've seemed inconceivable after seeing his rookie season.
Tyrus's jumpshot has become a big, big part of his game. It still needs work. Ideally we'd want his eFG% on jumpshots to be more like the .442 that Amare Stoudemire shoots on 2pt jumpshots. For reference, Amare shoots the same percentage of his shots as 2P jumpshots as Tyrus. Each player shoots 53% of his total attempts from 2p jump shot range. For Tyrus to become an elite offensive weapon, he needs to at least get to around .40 - .41 eFG% on his 2p jumpshots, especially if he's going to insist on taking 53% of his shots as 2 point jumpers. I have no doubt Tyrus will continue to put in the work on his jumper and if we chuck out his early month struggles when his jumper was truly abysmal, I imagine he's close to already being relatively close to that range now. Even if Tyrus never improves his jumper, which is a doubtful proposition given his committment to it, he can still be an effective offensive player or at the very least, he can be a player that doesn't hurt the offense. But, he must absolutely get back to passing the ball the way he did as a second year player and he must absolutely get back to hitting the glass, particularly the offensive glass, the way he did as a rookie - when he posted an OR% of 10.6%. An OR% of 7.8% from your starting PF just doesn't cut it, especially when that guy struggles to score efficiently.
The biggest and most glaring thing to me has been the disappearance of Tyrus's elite level defense. He went from being one of the better defenders in the league by a number of different metrics, to being a neutral force on that end to even a negative for the Bulls defense by basketballvalue's adjusted numbers for this year, they have him clocking in at a +1.86 on defense (where negative numbers indicate positive defensive contributions). The measurable things (blocks and steals) were still there for Tyrus this year, but his defensive rebounding dropped from the previous two years level of 21% down to 19%. Still, a 2% drop in DR%, while important, can't account for such a large drop on the defensive end. I suspect there's a combination of Vinny's defensive scheme, or lack thereof, not putting Tyrus in the best position to be successful, Tyrus not being as focused on that end of the floor, and other teams simply figuring out that Tyrus is going to try to block everything remotely resembling a shot and taking advantage at work which led to Tyrus's bad year on defense.
For Tyrus Thomas to be worth keeping, he has to get back to being an elite defender (and Vinny needs to come up with a real scheme that utilizes Tyrus's strengths), continue improving his offensive game (shooting, finishing, and PASSING), and he has got to get back to hitting the glass like a big man, like he did as a rookie. To get better at boarding, Tyrus will probably need to bulk up and get stronger, or at the very least, learn how to box people out rather than relying so much on his ability to outjump everyone.
I expect the Bulls to try to move Tyrus for a more established star at PF, but if they don't, I really hope he can make the leap to the next level, unlikely as that may be. I hope this post served as a good primer for the ways in which he should look to improve.
Update:
For a very in-depth breakdown of Tyrus's jumpshot, check out Doug Thonus's take here. He does a month by month break down of every midrange jumper Tyrus has taken in the last two years using the NBA hotspot data (yeoman work by Doug to do that manually). He also used Synergy Sports Tech to tell us a bit about Tyrus's jumpshooting. Ultimately, Tyrus's jumpshot appears to have gotten worse from last year to this. Keep working Tyrus.
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Good post, but Tyrus' defense is still good
Tyrus’ defensive APM last year was +4.57, his on/off defensive impact falloff this season I think is due to his starting alongside Rose and Gordon more than anything else.
Offensively I think he’s going in the wrong direction, so much so that his -1.8 two year APM seems fairly legit. I think the quicker we can turn some combination of Hinrich/Gordon/Salmons/Tyrus into an impact SG or PF, the better.
Tyrus's defensive APM from 07-08 does little to counteract the point I made about his defense from this year.
His raw on / off impact can be explained by the Rose Gordon backcourt, but his adjusted numbers for this year are still pretty bad on the defensive end.
I am more troubled by his huge step back on the offensive end though, despite his slightly increased scoring efficiency. He’s doing everything else worse (rebounding, passing) and the little things are not there either (setting good screens) which all adds up to Tyrus dropping off pretty significantly from a middling offensive player to a pretty bad one.
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on Jun 6, 2009 2:22 AM CDT up reply actions
I think you're putting way too much faith in the on court/off court data.
Arguing that Thomas had a neutral offensive effect his 1st two years is accurate, but it ignores the context. As a rookie Thomas was replacing either Ben Wallace or P.J. Brown the vast majority of the time who were statistically just as bad or arguably worse than Thomas was as a rookie. That’s neutral, but only because the other players were equally as bad. The next season is a similar story with Thomas replacing Wallace more often than he played with him, and Thomas playing a large share of his minutes after Wallace left and the offense improved greatly. There’s no Ben Wallace on this year’s team,. Noah improved greatly offensively and Miller was an offensive addition. Tyrus got better offensively, but the context also changed. Are Tyrus’s on/off court statistics this season any more meaningful than Gordon’s last season where he had a neutral impact on the offense and a hugely negative impact on the defense by his raw on/off court as well as a terrible APM?
This season was in no way a huge step back offensively. His jumpshot continued to improved, which was evident in his range than his accuracy this year. He took a few too many jumpshots, but the ratios aren’t that out of whack and that’s the position he was put in offensively. He improved significantly in the area he needed to most, finishing. And his ORtg improved to a career high 104, and he sustained a league average ORtg or better for most of the season.
Defensively he took step back, but so did most of the team and there’s more on that below. The system change and the swapping out of minutes played by Kirk and Duhon for Derrick shouldn’t be ignored either. Noah also had a similar raw on/off dropoff in his defense to that of Thomas. Not quite as big, but still significant. Was Noah significantly worse defensively this season?
by Scotter on Jun 6, 2009 4:58 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'll admit that I put way too much faith in the on / off court data. I tried to balance it out somewhat by looking at his
adjusted numbers in conjunction with the 82games on / off data and his other numbers (like ORtg, DRtg, etc.).
But yeah, I probably did rely too much on the on / off stuff. And Noah didn’t have the same sort of drop off in adjusted plus minus in his defense, so I see his raw on / off data as being less significant with respect to his drop off. With Tyrus, just about every metric I looked at showed him as a worse defender.
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on Jun 6, 2009 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions
And I think the dropoffs can be attributed mostly to Rose and the decline of the Bulls offense, not to Tyrus
His DRtg dropoff is directly correlated to the Bulls overall defensive dropoff:
2006-2007: Bulls DRtg – 99.6, Tyrus 93
2007-2008: Bulls DRtg – 107.2, Tyrus 103
2008-2009: Bulls DRtg – 108.7, Tyrus 104
There’s nothing in those numbers to suggest Tyrus is better or worse than he ever was. He steal and block rates were arguably his most impressive ever.
Eh, 82games adjusted on/off stats are fairly meaningless on their own
Look at the other Bulls starters defensively:
Rose: 111.7 allowed on, 103.8 allowed off
Gordon: 110.8 allowed on, 106.7 allowed off
-——————————————————————————-
Noah: 109.0 allowed on, 110.4 allowed off
Tyrus: 109.9 allowed on, 109.5 allowed off
1412 of Tyrus’s 1892 minutes played this year were with Gordon on the court. 1443 were with Rose. With that in mind, the +.4 adjusted defensive number is fairly impressive. When the defensive APM numbers come out this year, I fully expect Tyrus to be in the positive again.
Excellent post.
1. It’s a bad idea to equate AST% with the quality of a player’s passing. Saying that Tyrus became a worse passer this season isn’t correct. What AST% measures is passing role. Tyrus took a similar number of shots, but his role in Vinny’s offense was different. And he isn’t the only one, Deng saw a significant drop in AST%. When Salmons joined the team he ended up with an AST% inline with Deng’s reduced number. He wasn’t isolated and asked to create nearly as much. He didn’t get to play as much in the high/low, which is where a lot of assists come from. He wasn’t posted nearly as much. When Thomas makes an assist over 50% of the time it’s to a player cutting or already under the basket, and the offense didn’t feature those type of opportunities very much until some changes were made late in the year and there was more high/low play with the bigs. When the ball movement was good Tyrus was getting opportunities to create and he was finding guys for dunks and layups, but that type of ball movement didn’t last as the games went on. I believe Vinny intially wanted him to be Shawn Marion offensively, and had that type of role without 3-point shooting. Very little offensive rebounding and passing involvement. Basically just a screener in the pick and roll, and an offensive finisher. But, Tyrus is a different type of athlete from Marion and is never going to be that type of player. But, Vinny wouldn’t be alone in wrongly thinking that Thomas can be Marion.
What's a better stat for passing than AST%?
I’m curious, because I’ve noticed in EOPM with players who have a good ast% but whose offenses pass less when they’re in the game (Gordon and Salmons being two of them).
Without second-by-second data, I’m trying to think what’s a better passing statistic, especially one that’s so publicly available.
I think AST% is a good stat for passing, but you just have to keep in mind
that it’s measuring a player’s passing role as much as it’s measuring how well a player passes. Gordon’s career high came not in the year he passed the most, but rather in the year he played the most point guard. In Tyrus’s case his passing role diminished, but his touches likely decreased as well. AST% is part proxy for passing ability and part proxy for how often a player handled the ball. The touches for almost everyone decreased because the ball movement decreased.
You’re choices are somewhat limited because you have to have use assists as a proxy for passing ability. The alternative to measuring passing role is to measure how often a player passes. Essentially how often a player passes instead of shooting or turning the ball over. The problem with measuring this is that unlike AST% it requires a certain amount of estimation because you have to count assists as part of individual possessions in some way. Hollinger’s assist rate is the type of stat, but all he really measures is the % of time a player gets an assist compared to when he shoots, turns the ball over, or gets to the free throw line.
The other way to try and approach it like Bob Chaiken did, charting NBA games to get a multiplier that reflects the relationship between assists and how often a players pass the ball and his assists. And then count possessions as a shot, trip to the line, turnover, or pass. Are familiar with his stats based on touches and his simulator from the APBR board? I don’t believe anyone has run a regression using his stats and they might produce interesting results.
As I've reflected on the season, I see more and more of Vinny trying to apply the Phoenix system
to Chicago and the system not fitting the players.
Defensively Phoenix was interested in guarding the 3-point line and generating transition opportunities. Phoenix would switch almost every screen and they didn’t double the post because they didn’t want to give up open kick out three pointers. They’d rather give up a layup than an open 3. And because they had undersized posts that were going to get scored on anyway the Suns were better off switching and stopping the dribble penetration that would lead to drive and kick 3s. So Marion would take the guard and Nash would end up guarding Dirk or Lamar Odom. And this switching then created mismatches in transition when Phoenix got the ball either after a make or a miss. This defensive system took advantage of Phoenix’s two or three good and versatile defenders allowing the team to be league average defensively, while helping the team’s offensive efficiency.
And it produced the similar results for the Bulls. The Bulls were the 4th best team in 3P FG% allowed and top ten in 3PA allowed. And finished in the top 10 in eFG% allowed. They fouled less. And somehow finished as a league average defense, despite looking like swiss cheese most of the time. That was the beauty of the system, you could play league average defense while looking terrible.
The problem is that while it covered over some of Phoenix’s defensive weaknesses, you also can’t be a great defense playing this way. And similar results to Phoenix meant that a potentially very good defensive team became barely league average. It makes it too easy to score inside to be great. The mismatches created by the switching lead to poor defensive rebounding with Tyrus Thomas 20 feet from the rim and Derrick Rose supposed to box out a PF. The team that was in the top 5 in forced turnovers even last season slid to league average. And the defensive rebounding slid to the bottom of the league. And team overall was less aggressive defensively, which is a natural result of playing a less aggressive style. Playing defense the way the Bulls used to play it, and the way the best defensive teams play it takes commitment to that end of the floor and a lot of practice time because all the players have to rotate correctly or the defense starts giving up open 3s.
Offensively there was an attempt to make the Phoenix stuff work as well, and I don’t think it fits the personnel that well. Thomas is a very different player from Marion, and he’s not really Stoudemire either. Deng didn’t fit initially. And I don’t think it’s an offense that fits Derrick all that well as long as he’s not a 40% 3-point shooter. I don’t think you can play seven seconds or less style ball with these players and get the most out of them, and I don’t think it’s the way to play in the future either. I’m hoping to see some significant changes offensively and defensively next season.
by Scotter on Jun 6, 2009 3:26 AM CDT reply actions 11 recs
this is a fantastic analysis of the failings of Vinny this year. great stuff.
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on Jun 6, 2009 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions
Reading that
Is the essence of what coaching what really is. Well done Scotter.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
perfect...
I have been trying to put my finger on it and articulate the problems with the first year with Vinny and could never quite do it. We need a more traditional, hard-nosed, commitment to defense this year and if Vinny isn’t the coach to do this then we need to get rid of him. This is the approach that wins championships. I like Vinny, I think he knows basketball but part of being a good coach is not being stubborn with a system (especially when he isn’t the one who had success with it) and adjust to what is going to help win games WITH THE TEAM HE HAS. I would love to see Vinny take this step as a coach next year but would not hesitate to can him if he can’t figure it out.
Super rec'd
I couldn’t agree more offensively.
Defensively I see what you’re saying, but I do see quite a bit of room for growth. Going into next year, I see three obvious reasons to think we improve:
1. Miller’s size and experience is something the Suns teams never really had, except for the half-year of working in Shaq.
2. A healthy Deng might improve our defense and rebounding
3. Rose has nowhere to go but up defensively.
I still have concerns that this will be a team that has a hard time getting a stop or a rebound when it needs one, but I see some cause for optimism.
thats the hang up for me,
I still have a big question mark for this team being able to get a rebound or stop when it needs it. As long as this is an issue it will be very hard to compete in a tough, physical playoff series. I am hoping that Derrick surprises us all and puts some increased attention to his defense while also maintaining such a high level offensively and improving in that area (i know easier said than done)
lots of quality teams switch everything on the perimeter
like dallas, and they had better records than phoenix did. i also somehow get the sense that vinny is only playing that gimmicky defense because of rose’s rookie d, ‘cause teams went at him (as teams will do vs even a veteran pg who is so key). and… with ben at the 2, as well as the nefarious 3 guard. so there’s plenty to hope for, and much room for improvement.
i don’t know how to describe the offense, except it doesn’t look like phoenix to me. didn’t run much (effective) screen and roll, never looked to the bigs rolling inside until the very end of the year (a little). vinny and derrick and co. need to do this much more next year because noah and he have very good hands. but tyrus is nothing like shawn or amare as a finisher, that’s for sure!
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
Dallas does switch everything like many of the Western Conference teams, but it plays to the strength of their personnel.
They were merely average last season, but they topped out at 5th in 06/07. They had the big centers to clog the lane. They don’t have the personnel to force turnovers anyway so a lower risk strategy works well. And they had the size that allowed them to be a good defensive rebounding team, despite the switching. But even when they finished fifth, they were as close to league average as they were to 2nd place.
It was operating on many of the same principles as the Phoenix offense. Open lane, high screen and roll, but there wasn’t a point guard who shoots 40%+ from the 3 point line handling the ball. That changes the spacing. And Derrick is no where close to Nash in terms of orchestrating the pick and roll. It’s not as simple as Thomas and Noah just rolling to the rim if the defense has already fallen back into the lane and/or Derrick isn’t making that pass. Unfortunately I don’t think the Bulls can send Derrick to Spokane this summer to learn the pick and roll like the Jazz did with Deron, but things did get better later in the year.`
It's worth noting that Derrick had never run the pick and roll until he got to the NBA. So his learning curve was pretty steep.
He’s a worker, though, and I think if talks with Lindsey and the coaching staff this summer, he should be able to continue to pick things up. I’d be even more optimistic if Vinny had done anything to show me that he can coach, but alas, I’ll just have to hope that Derrick’s work ethic and overall basketball genius can help him understand the nuances of the screen and roll.
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on Jun 6, 2009 7:19 PM CDT up reply actions
not in disagreement.
although
And Derrick is no where close to Nash in terms of orchestrating the pick and roll.is where i agree most. ‘cause every team wants spacing, open lane, and runs high s ’n’ r (though few do as well as nash still does).
and i’d be very interested in seeing how derrick would do with as prolific a receiver as amare. can’t stop thinking about it whenever i see these multiple bosh scenarios, in fact.
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
It's not every team, and it's very different fromt what the Bulls ran under Skiles
who liked to have guys cut out of the lane. There’s reason Bulls players were talking about the lane being more open at the beginning of the season. Utah runs the high screen and roll, but they don’t operate with the same open lane, spacing, and action as Phoenix, but they’re also effective. Spacing is obvious important, but there’s different ways to get spacing that’s effective. That’s just one example.
dude,
do you really think i meant every team literally plays the same offense?
i hereby refuse to expend much energy contemplating every way that my every statement might be perceived by any particular partisan of this here fellowship, carefully covering my ass with an aside for any phrase that could be misinterpreted. lest my posts read like majoyenrac’s, lol!
for what it’s worth, i’d love to see the bulls running the utah stuff too.
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
I disagree with you a bit on this comment.
I do agree that being a bigger threat from the 3pt line would help Derrick tremendously, but you’re underestimating how deficient TT and Noah are as scorers/finishers on the pick n’ roll.
The biggest take-away for me on TT’s shot selection chart is how poor he continues to be on “Close” shots, which pains me to say b/c I’m a big fan of his. Noah isn’t as quite as bad, but both just aren’t very good at finishing near the basket unless given an uncontested path for dunks. We need them to be above 50%. While TT has shown improvement on his mid range, he continues to disappoint near the basket area. This is where he can really make a difference for our offense.
Their deficiency does two things: (1) its easier (and wiser) for opposing teams to simply clog the lane against Derrick b/c traffic near the basket usually translates into lower efficiency for TT/Noah; (2) Derrick’s TOV% is that much more pronounced b/c passes in the paint , which are already higher risk than to 3pt shooters are not being offset by a high eFG% by his front court players, i.e. we have more empty possesions.
B/c Derrick’s ability to penetrate is such a major weapon, its easier for
"Some people want it to happen, some wish it would happen, others make it happen." - Michael Jordan
Hit "Post" on accident.
I was going to add that if he played with STAT, DRose’s penetration and inside scoring ability might be strong enough to offset Nash’s advantage on the 3pt line.
"Some people want it to happen, some wish it would happen, others make it happen." - Michael Jordan
Fantastic post
This is what we need in the offseason, rather than a bunch of us just going at each other’s throats with hearsay.
I’m not great with these advanced metrics, but Scotter does have a point in the players Tyrus was replacing/being replaced with in these 3 seasons. Offensively, I’d say this was a positive year for Tyrus simply because he started off so poorly, yet when Gooden got injured he got his minutes and simply produced.
I think you are overrating the drop in Ast% when you consider our offense at times could be extremely selfish (it’s amazing when you consider how the Bulls employed Gordon, Hughes, Gooden, Nocioni, Tim Thomas, and Salmons all in one season).
While I think Tyrus could very well be one of the league’s best defenders, I worry about the offensive part of his game. To me, it feels like the lesser of a role he has on the team, the worse he plays. He still doesn’t set good screens, yet the Tyrus/Rose pick and pop was regularly used. In terms of rebounding, his numbers dropped off but when you have a near-elite shotblocker on your team, that’s the sacrifice you have to take. If Deng ever remembers how to stay healthy, his above average ability to rebound for his position should help to neutralize that, as well as Noah’s continued improvement on the glass.
That Steve Nash is exactly the same as Kirk Hinrich, but worse.
by NBA Observer on Apr 8, 2009 12:23 PM CDT
If he keeps working one day he might shoot like that other player ;-)

by Norsktroll on Jun 6, 2009 11:16 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Flagged
He’s still a pansy.
That Steve Nash is exactly the same as Kirk Hinrich, but worse.
by NBA Observer on Apr 8, 2009 12:23 PM CDT
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 6, 2009 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
It's a very good post by fundamentallysound, just to get a comparison. The 82games stats are also interesting.
Both playing at the PF position, LMA has a PER of 21.6 – more efficient despite taking more jumpers – and holds his opponents to a very average 15.5. TT has a PER of 17 and holds his opponents to 18.3 on PF. Mhm, I like him, but don’t you agree that could be a problem?
I don't think just using PER comparisons is a great way to say Aldridge is a better defender
I honestly don’t watch him close enough (if I do watch Portland it’s to see Oden foul and Roy play) to see if he’s a really good defender. He certainly has the length and quickness.
I disagree about Aldridge being a better individual defender, but at this point I’m willing to concede he’s better in a decent team concept. To me, Blazers defense looks worse than it could be because Batum is the only guy who can reasonably defend the perimeter. For Tyrus, he looked bad (or worse than the past 2 seasons) this season because the Bulls had no defensive scheme. I’m more frustrated by his offense, if Vinny figures out how to coach Tyrus will go back to being a near-elite defender for his age.
That Steve Nash is exactly the same as Kirk Hinrich, but worse.
by NBA Observer on Apr 8, 2009 12:23 PM CDT
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 6, 2009 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions
I invoke Mortimer
http://www.blazersedge.com/2009/6/5/900644/6-6-09-junk-drawer-im-not-a-nerd#16636542
Tyrus is more athletic and blocks more, but also falls for fakes and is not quite as quick as Aldridge, who also improved his strength a lot.
by Norsktroll on Jun 6, 2009 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'll gladly disagree with someone who watches maybe 3-4 Bulls games a year
With a real defensive scheme, he led the league in D-Rating as a 20 year old. For a guy who was so bad/uncoordinated on offense in his rookie season to still maintain a net positive is pretty impressive to me. A season and a half of no defensive coaching has limited his effectiveness. Without direction he’ll gladly go up and try to swat every shot attempt.
Also, if Tyrus is never going to make a jumpshot, then he’s already a lost cause. He has to keep working on that 15 footer and improving because that’s the only way he will become a useful part of the team’s offense. You can’t have a starting PF who scores solely on dunks and put-backs.
That Steve Nash is exactly the same as Kirk Hinrich, but worse.
by NBA Observer on Apr 8, 2009 12:23 PM CDT
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 6, 2009 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions
I watched about 30 Bulls games last season, can't talk about Morti. Sorry, didn't want to derail your TT development discussion, it just came up to me when I saw those charts.
I don't think there's any doubt who the better offensive player is between the two. The question with Tyrus
(at least relative to Aldridge) has always been could he get his offense to a level where his superior defense and athleticism would give him the edge over Aldridge overall.
I think he’s making slow progress to that point, but I don’t know that he ever surpasses Aldridge. I prefer Tyrus, but that’s mostly sentimental. If I’m being honest, Aldridge is the better player, and will probably continue to be. But I still hold out hope that Tyrus can get to a place where he hits enough of his jumpers to give him the overall edge. His defense is still better than Aldridge’s, even with Vinny screwing him all up on the defensive end with his horrible “scheme.”
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on Jun 6, 2009 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions
One way you could define the diference between TT & LMA
is that LMA has played for one coach under one system (most of the time) where TT has played in multiple systems for multiple coaches. I’m confused figuring out the Bulls, and so is everyone else. Why wouldn’t the players be confused, too?
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
This is very true, and very underrated. I think Tyrus had a better rookie year than LMA when you factor
in how dominant he was on defense. But, he didn’t get the same PT as LMA and then the coaching situation went into super-flux / suck mode and has pretty much been there ever since. Hopefully Tyrus can figure out what it is that Vinny wants out of him, and can get back to being the player I know he can be.
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on Jun 6, 2009 5:53 PM CDT up reply actions
In order for Tyrus to figure it out
Vinny has to know it.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Jun 6, 2009 7:32 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
(That doesn’t show how good a player does something, just how often. Major limitation is that it’s only offense. Data provided by Synergy Sports. Interesting especially in comparison to the 82game data above that shows how many attempts came off jumpers, dunks, etc.)
That data seems very accurate - Tyrus very rarely posts up and prefers to spot up, whereas LMA really likes to post.
Tyrus is a much more frequent cutter, and he also likes to go isolation a bit more than LMA (much to the chagrine of Bulls fans, because Tyrus is not a great isolation player).
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on Jun 6, 2009 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions
Again, no offense but this isn't a comparison article
We all know Aldridge is a better jumpshooter, that doesn’t mean Tyrus is never going to be good at it. He’s clearly improved his mechanics over the past 3 years.
And, I’m assuming that’s Live but those are horrible likenesses.
That Steve Nash is exactly the same as Kirk Hinrich, but worse.
by NBA Observer on Apr 8, 2009 12:23 PM CDT
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 6, 2009 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions
Live sucks!!!
2k9 bandwagon all the way.
Three things you must know:
-"Ben Gordon is a bundle of muscle and clutch. That's all he's made of. Drink BG7 energy drink, you'll grow a pair of balls on your balls."
-Pau Gasol: The defense of a seven foot ladder paired with the post presence of Manute Bol.
-Joakim Noah is better than you.
by Prevenge on Jun 7, 2009 11:52 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
He does move his feet well out there. He's just not very good down in the paint, which is ideally what you want from
your big man.
However, Kevin Garnett is the best PF in the league at guarding the perimeter and its not close. Sorry, S4E.
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on Jun 6, 2009 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions
that of course is if he is your big man.
If he is the 2nd big on the court and not the guy who the defense funnels penetration to (your shot blocker) then he had better be good at guarding the perimeter.
" Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes, that way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. "
You nailed it Ozzie
He’s (LaMarcus Aldridge) is still a PANSY!
who cares?
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
So will this quiet down some of the outcry from the playoffs of “play Tyrus, play Tyrus!?”
I’m all for jumping on the Vinny hate wagon, but certain things did pile on too much.
I do agree that Vinny should have been canned when he sat Rose for all those 4th quarters, but clearly Tyrus is not the same type of player for us/to us.
by RyPac13 on Jun 6, 2009 11:24 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Its just unfortunate...
that most of tyrus’ shortcomings seem to come directly from Vinny. its paradoxical because under real coaching Tyrus is the kind of player that you need to have on the court and to develop, but as long as Vinny is our coach (at his level of coaching and with the scheme of last year) Tyrus will continue to struggle. We either get a new coach, hope that Vinny develops a scheme similar to what Scotter described earlier as a less Phoenix/more traditional scheme, or we get rid of Tyrus. As a tyrus fan enamored with his potential I want to see a new coach or scheme and keep Tyrus (unless it nets us Bosh to trade him and then everything here is moot)
that is the hang up with me too,
this team will struggle in close playoff games unless they can prove able to get a stop or rebound when they need one. I also think we have to bring in a defensive stud as back up pg with the impending departure of Hinrich. Things get ugly if we replace Hinrich with a D-Rose light and just have other point guards lighting us up for 48 minutes. Hopefully Derrick will impress us all by stepping up his output on defense while still maintaining a high level offensively…
great post
i think a large part of tyrus’ defensive slip can be blamed on coaching; skiles is widely considered one of the better defensive coaches in the league, and it’s clear that tyrus’ defensive skills were accentuated in that scheme. the last 2 seasons there has been absolutely 0 defensive strategy or scheme. as i feel with most things relating to this team, get a real coach in place and the talent is there both for tyrus to be a very good player and for this team to be a very good team
Outstanding post and great discussion
I do think that we could supplement the discussion of the improvements in Tyrus’s shooting – as fundamentallysound points out, he made improvements during this past season on his perimeter FG% that don’t show up in his year-over-year eFG% on jump shots – by including his free-throw percentage data. He’s gone from .606 to .741 to .783, which is another indication that his shooting ability has improved over time. (Beyond that, I know that in his first two years his FT% increased every month during those years).
"You ain’t as hot as I is / all of these false prophets is not messiahs /
You don’t know how high the sky is / the square mileage of earth or what pi is." - Nas
Another positive aspect of Tyrus' game that doesn't get talked about much
Is his ability to get to the FT line (4 attempts a game playing 27 mpg), and also to consistently make the FTs. I don’t know if it’s a coincidence that his best shooting month from the field and the free throw line were both in December (85% from the line, 51% from the field).
The problem is, what happens if he has another disastrous November, and there isn’t a major injury that forces him back into the rotation?
That Steve Nash is exactly the same as Kirk Hinrich, but worse.
by NBA Observer on Apr 8, 2009 12:23 PM CDT
think its cuz this year he didnt attack much
add to fact that he eats butterfingers before every other game
Derrick Rose once pissed in a soda can …we now call that Red Bull.
I don't want Tyrus traded.
Yeah he sucked in the playoffs but part of me sees a glimmer of hope that he’ll realize his full potential and finally get it. Right now I just seem to wanna blame VDN since it was his failure to develop Tyrus. Which pretty much one of the main reasons he was hired.
I agree...
and I don’t think Vinny is the type of coach that is going to hold Tyrus accountable on the court, which is what he needs. The stats are clear, hes shooting 55% jumpers and that is wayyy too high for a player like tyrus. He falls for too many fakes and that leads to foul trouble. Those are just 2 areas off the top of my head that would seem to indicate a lack of accountability because they both started in November and carried all the way through until Boston. Someone (vinny?) needs to define his role and help him understand that it is how he is going to be most effective and most importantly most valuable to the TEAM.
perception
head fakes: i see him falling for fakes less and less often.
jumpshots: i see more going in the basket.
accountability/coaching “needs”: quoted as saying he liked skiles’ structure, i saw an ever more controlled game from tyrus overall this year. as long as he’s not (feeling?) temporarily marginalized in his TEAM role. and who knows what he needs, really? not even tyrus himself, i would guess.
one danger in watching such athletic players is assuming they should meet some imagined expectation of our own construction. because things should be easier for them on the court. but the reality is different. to use some hyperbole, even kobe’s i.q. is bested by battier’s.
so i’m shocked that funs claims to be a tyrus guy, posts all these pretty graphs and comes to the conclusion that ty has regressed somehow. like he’s gotten his head stuck too far up his stats to see clearly, or somethin’. i wanna see the stats that prove tyrus isn’t as good as josh smith, given the minutes. which would be impossible, ‘cause tyrus hasn’t been granted that role with the bulls. and that’s my beef, basically.
as far as ‘08-’09 goes, boston really bookends it. he had his 1 for 18 disaster, even as the jumper “looked” good, and that really dampened his start. finished with some(times) great play against what had become a “nemesis” team in the playoffs. shoulda/coulda played better, but also shoulda played more. i just don’t see tyrus starting at the 4 as a problem yet. get back to me when a) he’s getting josh smith minutes/role b) hasn’t gotten better than josh smith and/or c) hasn’t helped the team get well past the first round.
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
by marionette on Jun 6, 2009 4:58 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
i find it interesting that TT can
only shoot facing the basket..and on the those close right side shots..if he can get his left side better, and hold on to the damn ball sometimes…i wouldn’t be mad at him so much. Seriously, watching him play gives me the George Karl’s heartburn face
good post btw man
Derrick Rose once pissed in a soda can …we now call that Red Bull.
You All Know What It Is
For people who like tyrus we (as I do think he can blow up hopefully) see a possible scottie pippen type. A guy who could defend minimum 3 spots (2,3,4), the great leaping leads to many blocks and dunks, if the guy could continue to work hard on his handles- it would help his ability to utilize his quickness against bigger players, the continuance of developing his jumper I see being better than pips (pip shot sub .4 whether from 3 or 2 so hence he shot mostly 3s).
Its just the potential of tyrus is huge. Players of these types I believe are helped more by staying in college so they can learn how to develop their game, basketball IQ, and when they come out of college hopefully have a shorter learning curve in the pros.
As fans and true basketball students we should remember that alot of the professional athletes we have coming into our fair city to represent of beloved bulls are exactly not truly professional when they first show up. They are KIDS, very talented kids, but none the less kids and as early twenties athletes learning to be professional adults, we as fans and as a city have a task to show them what we expect (history), but also to let them know that despite it all they are forever a part of OUR beloved BULLS.
Three Cheers * Here is to our players gaining some passion from all the good people here and carrying us with them when they win it all.
Have a great weekend all
Tyrus is not very good at basketball yet?
Guys coming out of the 2009 NBA draft are fundamentally better and have established offensive games. I imagine college seniors today are probably younger than “perrential learning to play basketball, but full of unrealized potential” Tyrus Thomas… As we continue to wait on older, entering 4th year as a NBA veteran, yet still without a post move TT?
If Tyrus is traded this summer, then his present woeful hopeful jump shot is history because many teams will not give him the free opportunity to waste jumpers like the unmanaged/uncoached Bulls.
Also his unestablished post game will be put on perrential hold also because no teams are looking for a 23 year old guy not considered a potential all-star to waste offensive possessions by throwing shots wildly in the direction of the rim with a prayer for a lucky bounce. His BaB fan club will have moved on, and he’ll just be a regular pea in the pot in a new city.
Tyrus really hasn’t establish one aspect of his game (i.e Rebounds) to warrant is longevity in the NBA. If only he was considered a specialist in blocks together with rebounds, and consistent defense then he might fool someone like John Paxson, similiar to the Ben Wallace fisaco. Furthermore the Bulls ran out of money by wasting money of other bad signing during the last 3 years. Therefore Tyrus won’t be able to ride this potential wagon, Luol Deng used up all of the gas already. Still with Paxson in the organization, signing stupidity still has a higher probability.
I can see Tyrus @ 28 years old still learning to shoot a jump shot for acceptable percentage in practice and still having limited offensive moves playing in Europe.
How has IMG summer camps benefited him? Starting the season shooting .240 for a power forward towards mid season. This is unacceptable even for a college program. His composite grade for 3 years in the Bulls system is D-
man up!
Tyrus Thomas era needs to be over!
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
Trade Tyrus
You are not going to be able to fix Tyrus, because Tyrus is the problem. I don’t want to raise the hackles and cause the venom to fly. I really just want to state that he is a 4th year pro who should know better by now. He doesn’t seem to have what pundits commonly term a “Great basketball I.Q”.
He still does the same things wrong now that he has always done. He spent all summer pre season working with David Thorpe at IMG and he didnt change his game.
Trade him now and get great value on a guy thats costing very little and still has enough glitter on him to maybe net you a solid asset in return.
Athletically brilliant but ultimately he is squandering these tremendous gifts.
" Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes, that way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. "
The real problem with Tyrus in 08-09
The real problem with Tyrus in 08-09 isn’t his shooting…it’s that his rebound rate has dropped each year in the league and it was even lower in the playoffs.
Agreed.
He wants to be more permiter-oriented, but rebounds are a HUGE part of the game.
He needs to crash the boards regardless of whether he gets a jumper.
Three things you must know:
-"Ben Gordon is a bundle of muscle and clutch. That's all he's made of. Drink BG7 energy drink, you'll grow a pair of balls on your balls."
-Pau Gasol: The defense of a seven foot ladder paired with the post presence of Manute Bol.
-Joakim Noah is better than you.

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