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My James Johnson Profile


Good:

He's got excellent size and athleticism for both forward spots. He's a ridiculous 257lbs, but he's really athletic, posting good times in the sprint and agility drills, bench pressing a ton, and jumping out of the gym.

In short, he compares very well physically to plenty of successful players. The closest contemporary comparison might be Ryan Gomes, but with way more athleticism.  Perhaps Lebron James if Johnson loses 10-15 lbs. Yes, really.

He's a trained martial arts expert, which suggests to me excellent body control and the potential for good discipline.

Productively, he's demonstrated good but not great returns to his unworldly physical abilities. First, Wake Forest played at an NBA Pace. That's something that's not generally noted, but it's pretty important when considering how guys adjust.  For example, Blair and Pitt played a game that had something like 80 possessions per 48 minutes. The slowest paced NBA team, the Blazers, played 86.6. The Bulls played 93 I think. Wake Forest played about 90 possessions per 48 minutes. So he might be a bit more used to that sort of play from the get-go.

Within this background, he produced at good but not great levels. He's got range out to the 3 point line, he can rebound, and he finished pretty well. He appears to be able to pass the ball.

Bad:
The only physical negative I see is that weight. He's got 12% body fat in a world where the average successful NBA SF has 6-7% and the average PF has 8-9%.  With proper conditioning, I'd guess his proper playing weight would be about 245lbs.

Statistically, he was right on the margin of "troubling" in two areas. First, he fouled quite a bit, though he's not a foul machine. Second, he was just under 70% as a free throw shooter, which isn't all that great, but marginally acceptable. Third, for a guy with his physical tools, he really didn't get to the line a lot compared to what really top notch guys do.

Other:
* He apparently annoyed Chris Paul so badly that Paul told the Hornets not to draft him if available. Usually good players want their college teammates, especially if they think they can be good pros. That's sort of annoying.
* He's talked about an MMA career if basketball doesn't work out. The upside of that is he's a bad ass. The downside is I don't want him thinking aobut what happens if basketball doesn't work out.
* He came to basketball a bit late. I think I read he only started playing a couple years into high school.

Conclusions:
James Johnson has the tools to be an absolutely spectacular player. His physical gifts are second to none, even for the NBA. And his skills are impressive. He's demonstrated every tool you'd want from a basketball player on the court. Except... an overwhelming commitment and drive to succeed.

That's the common theme.

Physically he's gifted, but he's not in the best shape he could possibly be in. Productively, he's demonstrated superb skills, but hasn't produced to the level one could imagine a player with his skills producing at.  In short, it's all there, and even if he half-asses it, he can still be useful. But if he really commits and works his ass off, he could be amazing.


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I keep hearing no concept of team basketball

And I blatantly saw that the one Wake game I watched this year when he jacked up back to back transition 3s (missing both) with his team trying to come back. For a Bulls offense that took too many out-of-the-flow-of-the-offense shots last year, Johnson + VDN (+Tyrus!) could be very bad.

But yeah, I love his athleticism.

by YaoPau on Jun 26, 2009 9:11 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

The basketball discipline is the big concern for me...

I live in ACC country so I see a lot of Wake Forest games. Johnson has all of the skills and physical tools. It’s just that he (along with the entire Wake team) played terrible team basketball. They just seemed like five guys meeting up to play pickup ball (though with obviously much more talent than you’ll see at the local Y).

Part of the problem may be that he’s had terrible coaching (Dino Gaudio is worthless). But considering that Del Negro is learning on the job, that could remain a problem.

If he can figure out how to play team basketball, he has a lot to offer offensively. But that’s a big "if’. But, that’s what you get with the #16 pick in a thin draft.

by SouthernCub on Jun 26, 2009 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I watch a lot of ACC bball too, though it sounds like you've seen WF play more than me...

Do you remember hearing anything about him not getting along with his teammates? I’m not sure if it was him, but I remember rumors about one of the most talented players on that team not playing team ball- on and off the court- and ruining the chemistry, ultimately leading to their disappointing season.

What do I need to show fire for? I'm not a dragon. - Lou Pinella

by smash! on Jun 26, 2009 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

i remember hearing things

about jeff teague and how he kind of drove that team apart.

by Calogero on Jun 26, 2009 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I believe that was Teague...

He mailed it in when the team would struggle.

Though the biggest problem for Wake was the lack of coaching. Gaudio was useless.

by SouthernCub on Jun 26, 2009 4:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sounds like he fits right in. VDN really has a 3rd guaranteed year.

The Bulls will not eat that cost.

Gar Paxdorf recognize VDN has no concept of team offense so they got someone that could fit.

People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett

by tyger1147 on Jun 26, 2009 9:37 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

When did that third year get guaranteed?

We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan

by snley on Jun 26, 2009 9:48 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It didn't. I'm being cynical and snarky.

People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett

by tyger1147 on Jun 26, 2009 9:50 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why do we think he's a good shooter?

His form looks okay, but he’s a career 30% 3pt% and a 69% FT%. Do we just say he’s got shooting skills because his team let him jack shots up?

I read somewhere he gained weight coming into the workouts? On one hand, that work ethic and determination annoy me. On the other hand, if it was 10 pounds, before I read your 245 statement, I thought the same thing. He could lose 12 pounds total while adding 5 pounds of muscle over the next year easy. That would turn him into having a “great body” for the NBA.

People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett

by tyger1147 on Jun 26, 2009 9:40 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I think that's relative to position played...

For a PF, he’s a pretty good shooter. Overall, he’s definitely not a great shooter though.

by SouthernCub on Jun 26, 2009 9:46 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh yeah, and I'm sticking with my "Poor Man's Carmelo Anthony" comparison.

His length, his reach, his athleticism all compare favorably. The shooting, the rebounding, steals, assists (per 40, pace adjusted) all compare favorably. I say Poor Man’s because he’s 3 years older than Anthony when both were drafted and only 3 years younger than Anthony now.

People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett

by tyger1147 on Jun 26, 2009 9:50 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Compare at per40/Pace-adjusted, college numbers

James Johnson

Carmelo Anthony

People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett

by tyger1147 on Jun 26, 2009 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't dislike this pick.

I’m disappointed they didn’t take Blair, but I steeled myself for Johnson earlier this week or last week when it came out that he’d be taken. If Deng is healthy, and Thomas takes a big step ahead in the “smart decisions” department, Johnson will be a very good, instant-offense back-up in just a year or two.

And as much as I think they were foolish for passing on Blair, if they really, really didn’t want him, fine. But Taj Gibson? There were just soooo many better prospects: better floor, better ceilings, better fit, better need. I just… whatever. No. 26 is typically worthless. They just assured that. Meh.

People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett

by tyger1147 on Jun 26, 2009 9:57 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I have no problem with the Johnson draft...

I agree that Gibson is a head scratcher. He just seems too repetitive (but not as good) with Noah and Thomas.

by SouthernCub on Jun 26, 2009 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't disagree

I’m just trying to look objectively at Johnson here. I think, in the context of who was available, he was probably the best option.

Taj is a whole different story. By most every possible measure, I don’t like his prospects or selection.

by Sports2 on Jun 26, 2009 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's not a bad comp...

they have similar styles of games. Both are inside/outside types capable of playing the 4 or being a bruising 3. Both are really strong. Neither was a great shooter coming out of college. Anthony is definitely better, but that’s the type of player Johnson is.

by SouthernCub on Jun 26, 2009 9:58 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yep. Not exceptionally quick for a SF, but quick enough.

And a lot smoother so they don’t look rushed. Sort of like the “unathletic” James Harden. And definitely bigger and stronger than most SF’s. I just hope his handle is good enough to play out there. It could be, but until I see him being guarded by the likes of Shane Battier, Gerald Wallace, LeBron James, Iguodala.

If he does have a legit NBA handle and refrains from being Josh Smith on shooting, then he’ll be really good on offense.

People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett

by tyger1147 on Jun 26, 2009 10:13 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Jesus

we’ve got a bit of a mind-meld going here. Carmelo is exactly the comparison, and here’s why: Anthony succeeds because he combines superior strength at the 3 with adequate quickness and the handle/body control of a guard. In fact, if Johnson lost a little weight, he’d probably be a better athlete. Unfortunately, while he doesn’t have anthony’s perimeter skills, he share a tendancy to jack up bad shots.

Strength and body control are the most overlooked attributes when assessing players. If Johnson can lose the weight and continue to refine his shot – recall he didn’t play ball for awhile – he could be a terrific player. Which is why I love the James Johnson pick at 16.

That we passed on Blair at 26, however, makes me queasy.

The poster formerly known as Freethefro.

by MPG on Jun 26, 2009 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The athletic comparisons to LeBron are quite a reach...

He’s definitely a good athlete, but he’s not remotely in LeBron’s category – even if he trims down. He’s a very good athlete for his size, but he’s nowhere near that level of explosiveness. Danny Granger seems like a better athletic comparison at a somewhat similar size.

by SouthernCub on Jun 26, 2009 9:40 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Well, we don't actually know Lebron's measures, do we?

But out of guys we have measurements for and that are relatively close to his size, he’s at the head of the pack or close for:
Wingspan
Reach
Straight Vertical
Max Vertical
Bench Press
Agility
Sprint

In short… pretty much every category except his body fat. At the high end of the spectrum, compare him to Carmelo. At the low end, look at a guy like Ryan Gomes. Both are successful NBA players (obviously Gomes is just a role player, but still). Johnson’s got Anthony beat at pretty much everything.

by Sports2 on Jun 26, 2009 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Body measurements are similar - athleticism is not...

I’ve seen Johnson play a lot in college. He’s just not nearly the athlete that James is.

And Johnson is not at or near the head of the pack in the agility or sprints. He’s up there (for a big man) in the other categories. But I’d be willing to bet that James would be at the top in the vertical, sprint, and agility categories – not just towards the top.

If all you meant was to say he’s a similar size to James and pretty athletic, I’d agree. But he’s not in James’s category athletically. He’s very athletic for a big man – James is very athletic for anybody.

by SouthernCub on Jun 26, 2009 10:02 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The comparison to James athleticism is insane;

but if he lost some weight (body fat % holy cow!) he’d definitely be a better athlete than Carmelo. Which ain’t bad, especially if he’s gonna be a 3/4.

The poster formerly known as Freethefro.

by MPG on Jun 26, 2009 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Though to be fair,

Carmelo’s not awesome because of his athleticism alone. It’s his combo of perimeter skills and desire…of which Johnson may have neither.

The poster formerly known as Freethefro.

by MPG on Jun 26, 2009 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Right, Carmelo may have one of the best mid-range games in the NBA

James Johnson……I mean even if he could improve, where are the minutes/coaching staff to facilitate it?

That Steve Nash is exactly the same as Kirk Hinrich, but worse.
by NBA Observer on Apr 8, 2009 12:23 PM CDT

by Ozzie Montana on Jun 26, 2009 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

meh, he's a rookie on a "good" team.

You shouldn’t want him to get more than 500-1000 mins. If he doesn’t get a lot of mins, it’s because Deng is healthy and Thomas is impressive enough for them to keep him out there. I’ll take that over Johnson. I’d wait to “worry” about his minutes until next year.

People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett

by tyger1147 on Jun 26, 2009 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not really worrying, if Johnson plays a lot because Deng is hurt again

Or Thomas doesn’t “get it” then the team is going down a bad road as it is. Just saying how drafting high upside in such a weak draft doesn’t make any sense for this team. He’s not that good right now, and in 6 months we’ll probably be saying the same thing.

That Steve Nash is exactly the same as Kirk Hinrich, but worse.
by NBA Observer on Apr 8, 2009 12:23 PM CDT

by Ozzie Montana on Jun 26, 2009 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

A lot needs to happen before the start of the season.

Hopefully a trade. Asking for a new coach is hoping for too much. :)

The poster formerly known as Freethefro.

by MPG on Jun 26, 2009 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You don't know what James' athleticism is

How much of it is athleticism and how much of it is skill level? James is a great athlete with great size and a great skill level. How do you separate those things out?

And as far as Carmelo… James is a better athlete already, as measured by the combine. So yeah, if he gets better condition, I suspect he’d be even better.

by Sports2 on Jun 26, 2009 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I have a pretty good idea of his athleticism relative to LeBron...

Trust me – it’s not close. Yes, Johnson is very athletic for a big man. But he’s not remotely in James’s category athletically. James is more athletic than most guards. Johnson is not.

James is a lot more explosive, he’s a better leaper, and he’s faster. Johnson is definitely a great athlete for his size, but James is a terrible comparison athletically.

by SouthernCub on Jun 26, 2009 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm really excited to be a meathead fan next season

And just rip on James Johnson incessantly for every mistake he pulls while posting DeJuan Blair box scores.

please let reverse psychology work

That Steve Nash is exactly the same as Kirk Hinrich, but worse.
by NBA Observer on Apr 8, 2009 12:23 PM CDT

by Ozzie Montana on Jun 26, 2009 10:12 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I was really disappointed with this pick

when it was made (I wanted Blair). But the more I learn about Johnson, he’s a good pick at #16 in this draft if he’s motivated and plays hard when he’s on the floor. VDN sucks at a great many things, but he did get everyone to play hard all year, so I have some hope that Johnson can end up closer to Melo than Ryan Gomes. But really, if Gomes is the “floor” for Johnson, then it’s still a nice pickup. Plus, he should have toughness if he was a junior champion kickboxer.

About Taj over Blair, the only thing I can think of is that 1st rounders have guaranteed rookie contracts, and the Bulls didn’t want to take the risk. But if that were the case, the Blazers were giving away draft picks, you’d think the Bulls would have grabbed one of their early 2nd rounders to get a guy with so much upside with minimal risk.

by kozzer on Jun 26, 2009 11:26 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Gomes is the ceiling?

Damn. Well, let’s hope he reaches that not-so-lofty potential then. Others have said his ceiling is much higher than Gomes’, but that their games are similar.

by kozzer on Jun 26, 2009 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

that's bs.

The poster formerly known as Freethefro.

by MPG on Jun 26, 2009 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

(referring to the DX prediction, not you)

The poster formerly known as Freethefro.

by MPG on Jun 26, 2009 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think so. Johnson isn't THAT good. We're talking ourselves into him.

1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box

by fundamentallysound on Jun 26, 2009 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

i think saying Ryan Gomes is his ceiling is BS

he can be better than Ryan Gomes. Its more than likely he ends up being just like Ryan Gomes. But to say the absolute best he could be is Ryan Gomes is a bit ridiculous. How do they know that?

by Basketball Smurf on Jun 26, 2009 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's not BS. Gomes is a legit NBA player

Look at Johnson’s body fat and read the scouting reports about how he doesn’t know how to play basketball. Given the Bull’s coaches and their ability to coach players up, there’s a really good chance Johnson is out of the league honing his MMA skills in a couple of years. Gome as his ceiling sounds right to me.

by hitlesswonder on Jun 26, 2009 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

please show me a scouting report that says Johnson doesn't know how to play basketball

Gomes is a legit NBA player, but I don’t believe that if Johnson puts it all together, Gomes is the max he could be. I think its more likely than not that he ends up being just as good as Gomes, but saying Gomes is the max he could be is a stretch.

by Basketball Smurf on Jun 26, 2009 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Someone posted this is another thread:

From DraftExpress:

He isn’t as solid as you’d hope either, forgetting to box out his man in crucial moments, being late to rotate defensively, and generally being inconsistent from game to game and often possession to possession. Johnson seems like the kind of guy who needs special attention from the coaching staff to make sure they’re getting (and will get) 100% out of him at all times, although this could be something that improves with added maturity.

I read that and think that they are saying he has a lot to learn about playing basketball still. I’m not sure that’s a good fit with the current Bull’s staff.

by hitlesswonder on Jun 26, 2009 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

i read that to say he doesn't compete 100% at all times

and he needs someone on his ass. That isn’t the same as not knowing how to play the game.

by Basketball Smurf on Jun 26, 2009 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Other than Blair

who else was available that would have been better?

by kozzer on Jun 26, 2009 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I guess no one

Which, of course makes you wonder why they didn’t draft Blair and Johnson.

The Chicago Bulls.....the more profitable Los Angeles Clippers.

by Ozzie Montana on Jun 26, 2009 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

i like the johnson pick

the gibson pick is a little more indefensible. My only thought is that once they decided on Johnson, they wanted to go with the best defensive big available. While I’m almost 100% certain Gibson will not have the impact on the league that Blair will, he will be a better defensive player. So… really Gibson was an inexcusable pick. And I think that pick is driving most of the anger on Blogabull.

by Basketball Smurf on Jun 26, 2009 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not saying there was a better pick at 16

I was just saying that given his draft position and the stuff that has been written about him that saying Gomes is his ceiling seems legit to me. I’m not particularly upset about the Johnson pick, given that it seems Blair’s knees concern everyone. I just don’t think we should expect Johnson to be particularly good.

The Gibson pick on the other hand…

by hitlesswonder on Jun 26, 2009 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ahh, I see

I agree with you. As I said earlier, if he turns out to be a Gomes-level player then it’s a good pick.

by kozzer on Jun 26, 2009 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Honestly, if they were set against taking Blair...

I was hoping they would take Ty Lawson just bc I think he was the most valuable and he would have given us a number of options.

What do I need to show fire for? I'm not a dragon. - Lou Pinella

by smash! on Jun 26, 2009 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Johnson's stat line from Wake Forest

SEASON MIN PTS REB AST TO A/T STL BLK PF FG% FT% 3P% PPS
2007-2008 29.2 14.6 8.1 1.2 2.6 .47 1.4 1.3 3.1 .487 .689 .280 1.30
2008-2009 30.5 15.0 8.5 2.0 2.4 .84 1.4 1.5 2.9 .542 .697 .319 1.35

How can you do that on an ACC team and not know how to play?

by kozzer on Jun 26, 2009 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Formatting went bye-bye...

Sorry for the unreadability.

by kozzer on Jun 26, 2009 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

There isn't a position on the court

that he really knows how to play. His decision making with the ball isn’t very good. And there’s nothing that impressive about that stat line. It’s okay for a future NBA player, but nothing more than that. The best thing you can say about Johnson’s stat line is that there aren’t any huge red flags that will likely stop him from being an NBA player. The question is whether he can eventually do anything well enough, and play one position well enough to be a good NBA player. He’s was probably the right pick given who was available, but he does have to really improve his decision making and learn how to really play the game . People seem to want to make him the anti-Tyrus when they have more in common on the mental side than they do differences.

by Scotter on Jun 26, 2009 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

like.... an offensive Tyrus Thomas, even if beefier and less athletic

People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett

by tyger1147 on Jun 26, 2009 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

???

???

People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett

by tyger1147 on Jun 26, 2009 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Define athleticism

Johnson did the agility drill .15 seconds better than Tyrus, which is a noticeable amount. He ran the sprint 3/100ths of a second slower, which is not a noticeable amount. He benched 18 times vs. 8 for Tyrus.

Tyrus had the advantage in jumping by a large margin though.

So basically, Johnson won two categories and Tyrus one, and they tied in the fourth.

by Sports2 on Jun 26, 2009 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

jumping is kinda big thing in basketball

It’s not just how high you can jump either. Thorpe said that Ty gets off the floor quicker than anyone he had ever seen.

You want to consider stats in some drills, but you have to check your conclusions against your common sense. JJ has a damn well-developed offensive game. You keep implying that he is as gifted athletically as the most explosive athletes in the league – Lebron, Ty. If that was true, JJ would have been a top 5 pick. He was not even in the conversation. He is not THAT explosive.

by bob horse on Jun 26, 2009 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's not athleticism

but players do sometimes try and make their athleticism seem better by just holding back on their standing reach

by Jamaicanpi on Jun 26, 2009 4:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I did when I was testing for football in college.

Recorded a 33" vertical when it was really only 31" or so. (no-step, is. Hiyoooo!)

People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett

by tyger1147 on Jun 26, 2009 5:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

ha

I did the same thing.

by Jesse07 on Jun 30, 2009 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

ha

no one thinks you’re more of athlete for that…

by kingj41 on Jun 30, 2009 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

your description suggests a top 3 pick in this years draft

… and this guy was not even talked about as a potential lottery pick. Seems very suspicious, doesn’t it?

I heard his college coach on the radio last night. He thinks James is a 3 in the NBA, and said that he has too loose weight to stay in front of other SFs. How much playing time will he manage to take away from Deng and Salmons?

He would be much more useful to the Bulls as a 4, and I am concerned his coach does not see him there.

While the consensus is that he is athletic enough, nobody talks about him being an explosive freak like Lebron. Come on.

A fluid tweener with some offensive skills and no 3-point range. We already paid one of these 70 millions.

by bob horse on Jun 26, 2009 12:03 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Why does my description suggest a top 3 pick?

My description is was that he basically underachieved his talent level as a college player and that plus the other evidence I see makes me think he isn’t fully and seriously committed to playing hoops in the way you need to succeed at the NBA level.

That’s a serious knock. You can have all the talent in the world, but if you don’t have the talent of making use of your talent, you aren’t gonna make it.

From that perspective, it’s possible to conclude he’ll be a complete bust.

by Sports2 on Jun 26, 2009 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

an all-nba athlete who can score with either hand, rebound, and pass

Marvin Williams was #1 overall; Tyrus was #4. Brandan Wright was 8, and Anthony Randolph was 12 – in much stronger drafts.

In this years draft, you can imagine Griffin, Rubio, and maybe Harden and Thabeet being taken higher than what you describe. That’s it. There is no way an elite athlete with his game drops out of top 10.

My explanation is this: he is not quick enough to play SF, and he is not a PF. His ceiling is being the 4th best player on a good team. My concern is that he is too similar to Luol, who is (a) signed for long term, and (b) really seemed a bad fit with Rose. Better athlete than Loul, but similar size, game, and flaws.

by bob horse on Jun 26, 2009 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Gar Forman said they think Johnson was one of the Top 5-7 prospects in the draft.

and they tried really hard to move up to 11 to get him. They clearly see what Sports2 sees. You might not, but they do.

And what’s wrong with a second Luol Deng on the team? There weren’t any SG’s available, and they still have hope (I think) for Tyrus Thomas. They have two PG’s right now. They have two C’s and another one coming… They don’t have a back-up SF once Gordon leaves (because that makes Salmons the starting SG).

If he’s Deng 2.0, that’s pretty swell since Deng is really good and if he could play 48 mpg w/o getting tired or having a risk of injury, that’d be fantastic. If you told me they just got a younger Luol Deng for ~1 million, I’m very happy.

People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett

by tyger1147 on Jun 26, 2009 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just to clarify my point (whether it's true...):

They didn’t draft Johnson to be a starter. If he becomes one by surpassing Deng or Thomas in production, then great. I feel confident, though, that they didn’t draft him thinking he’d be starter. Maaaaybe that he could have that potential, but they aren’t planning on it. Think of him as Nocioni’s replacement. The 3/4 back-up bringing offense.

People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett

by tyger1147 on Jun 26, 2009 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

i am not saying he is a bad pick at 16

He might very well be the best option that Bulls had. I am not going to throw stones at Gar for this one.

My concern is that he is not a great fit – not really a cover at 4, and I would like my backup SF to be able to hit an open 3 and put the ball on the floor a bit – i.e. I would prefer a Salmons clone to a Deng clone, because that seems to be a better fit with Rose.

All in all, I am not down on JJ. I just disagree with Sports2 about his ceiling. Oh, and of course Gar likes him :)

by bob horse on Jun 26, 2009 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

And well, that's the downside and why he wasn't a Top 5 pick, really.

He may:
1. lose weight and get quicker
2. learn to shoot the 3
3. translate his dribbling skills to the NBA
an become too big for SF’s to guard and too quick for PF’s to guard. A mis-match nightmare.

He might, on the other hand:
1. gain weight and stay stuck in between
2. never gain legitimate range
3. be just a tad too poor of a dribbler to be a perimeter player
and become someone who can’t do well at either SF or PF.

If Johnson were two years younger (indicating he might have even more room for growth) or had come into camp 15 lbs lighter and slightly quicker, or had shot a little better from 3 and FT, any single one of those three things, and I would almost guarantee he would have gone to Golden St or NYK or even Toronto.

People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett

by tyger1147 on Jun 26, 2009 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

"Deng is really good?!"

I think that’s simply not true.

Pros: He had one year where his mid-range jumper was simply on. I believe he is an above-average rebounder for his position.

Cons: He isn’t athletic, he’s not a good defensive player, he has no handle, he can’t create his own shot, his only position is SF which he can’t really play, he’s not a good passer, he has no post game. He has no 3 pt shot. Also, he’s clearly brittle.

Maybe I’m overly harsh here, but even so it’s a stretch to call him “really good”.

by hitlesswonder on Jun 26, 2009 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

He's good, wasn't as bad as everyone tried to make him out to be in 2008

Last season he struggled in a new role, got injured, John Salmons looked great for 20 games and everyone went crazy. A healthy Luol Deng is one of the better forwards in the game, he’s already proven that. If he continues to get hurt, then whatever chalk up another failure for the Bulls.

The Chicago Bulls.....the more profitable Los Angeles Clippers.

by Ozzie Montana on Jun 26, 2009 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If he shoots a high percentage again, I agree he's a good player (still overpaid, but good)

But, I’m not sure he’ll shoot like that again and I don’t know if his game fits with Rose.

Deng seems like a decent guy and the Bulls PR dept. screwed him royally last season, so I wish him the best. But he was decidedly not really good the last 2 seasons.

by hitlesswonder on Jun 26, 2009 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

not a good defensive player?!?!

oh, son. What part of “holding nearly every small forward he faces below their career averages, including Danny Granger, Carmelo Anthony, Tayshaun Prince, etc.,” do you not think is “good”?

People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett

by tyger1147 on Jun 26, 2009 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

and that's just one part of your assessment that's wrong.

People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett

by tyger1147 on Jun 26, 2009 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What else?

I think lack of 3pt shooting and not having a handle or post game are undeniably true. Passing is arguable, but I haven’t seen anything that made me think he was good.

by hitlesswonder on Jun 26, 2009 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm happy to proven if the numbers say I'm wrong.

I’ll admit my assessment of his D is based on observation, which is obviously more subjective than the stats. I thought he looked slow in guarding a lot of people on the perimeter (he looked better closer to the hoop, where his length helped I thought).

by hitlesswonder on Jun 26, 2009 3:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Tougher, Stronger, Non Disappearing, Less Fragile Luol Deng

Sign him up!

If anyone is backup up Deng and Tyrus, he’ll get plenty of playing time..

man up!

by exult463 on Jun 27, 2009 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Those were shitty picks.

He’s certainly quick enough to play SF. I’ve looked at the measurements of successful NBA players in pretty intricate depth. For SF’s, Johnson is right in the mix despite obviously carrying around too much weight:

PS	SF avg	JJ
NSV	 30.13 	30.5
MaxV	 35.05 	35
Bench	 9.80 	18
Agile	 11.39 	11.21
Sprint	 3.29 	3.28

Keep in mind those are average values for actually successful NBA SFs, not just and old set of players

by Sports2 on Jun 26, 2009 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

interesting data

Looks like an average NBA three with a chance to be better than average if he starts eating better. Strong; that’s a good thing.

Wake coach said yesterday that he does not have lateral quickness to guard 3s unless he loses extra weight. He said he needs to play at about 235lbs. He put it less harshly than I did, of course.

Anyway, looks like not a bad pick at 16, and I hope he pans out. If Gar manages to trade Deng, I will give him an A for this one.

by bob horse on Jun 26, 2009 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

4th player on a good team

Rose
Bosh
BG
Noah
Johnson

He can be the 5th best player on a really good team :)

by Jesse07 on Jun 30, 2009 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Gordon is gone and I do think they'll try to trade Hinrich.

Even if they don’t trade Hinrich, Salmons will be playing 30-35 mpg at SG. That would still leave Hinrich with 25-30 mpg backing up both positions. Johnson doesn’t need to take time from Salmons.

So he’s going to back up Deng. How much do you want Deng playing? With his injury history, I’d hesitate to play him more than 33 mpg. Do you really need Johnson playing > 15 mpg? He’s a frickin’ rookie for crying out loud. The players he’ll be competing for minutes with will be Taj Gibson and Brad Miller. I’d bet money this is near exactly how they envisioned it playing out when they decided, before the draft, to take these two players:

Rose 35 mpg – Hinrich 13 mpg
Salmons 33 mpg – Hinrich 15 mpg
Deng 33 mpg – Johnson 15 mpg
Thomas 30 mpg – Noah 10 mpg – Gibson 8 mpg
Noah 23 mpg – Miller 25 mpg

You have Nelson, TiT and Gray to round out the active roster. If Johnson and Gibson suck, or if the Bulls have a coach that thinks he has to win every game w/o “developing” for the future and the coach thinks playing the veterans is the best way to do that (they do? DAMMIT!!!), then TiT will probably take most of their minutes.

Johnson isn’t competing with Deng, Thomas or Salmons for playing time. They are starters. Johnson is a back-up.

People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett

by tyger1147 on Jun 26, 2009 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You forgot the requisite 3 minutes a night for Kurt at SF. You know it's happening.

1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box

by fundamentallysound on Jun 26, 2009 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If it works against Paul Pierce in a small sample, then it will always work

The Chicago Bulls.....the more profitable Los Angeles Clippers.

by Ozzie Montana on Jun 26, 2009 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I know. Or Salmons at SF and Deng at PF.

People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett

by tyger1147 on Jun 26, 2009 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

hahahahah

People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett

by tyger1147 on Jun 26, 2009 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

How Johnson's measurements compares to other NBA starters

Lane agility test:

SF – Only 7 SF starter measurements are better (out of 17)

PF – There were 3 faster PFs who started out of 14

3/4 court sprint:

SF – 8 players were quicker out of 17

PF – 4 players were faster out of 14

no-step vertical + standing reach

SF – five-way tie for 6th best measurement (out of 17)

PF – two-way tie for 9th (out of 14)

max vertical + standing reach

SF -two-way tie for 7th best measurement (again out of 17)

PF – two-way tie for 9th (you guessed it 14)

Weight

SF – heaviest of all SF measurements

PF – 3rd heaviest behind Big Baby and Boozer

by Jamaicanpi on Jun 26, 2009 4:40 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

so what you're saying is he's a fat lard. :-P

1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box

by fundamentallysound on Jun 26, 2009 4:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

a fat lard who's a very good athlete

like me, only with basketball skills. I bet he’s down to 245 (or they’ll be saying that at least) by training camp.

People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett

by tyger1147 on Jun 26, 2009 5:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I like Johnson because of his versatlilty.

With Blair what you see is what you get. He’s basically a young Barkley with bad knees. Think about this: Bad knees and he hasn’t played ONE nba game
yet!! As for Gibson i think the Bulls picked him because of his maturity (i’m looking at you, Tyrus) and his length. He could become a solid player for the Bullies so i’m not gonna be a hater.

"You never got me down, Ray. Ya hear me? Never got me down."
-Jake Lamotta

by The Red Menace on Jun 26, 2009 7:39 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You can't criticize Blair right after you called him a "young Barkley."

I would have taken a “young Barkley” with NO knees at the 26th pick.

by potato0328 on Jun 26, 2009 8:53 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

"I can't...?"

I just did potatoehead. But seriously; perhaps ‘young barkley’ is an overstatement. My point is that we don’t know what Blair will amount to in the NBA so lets not put the ‘savior’ tag on him. At the same time lets not poopoo the picks we got. I seem to remember a lot of Bulls fans dismissing Joakim Noah when he was drafted.

"You never got me down, Ray. Ya hear me? Never got me down."
-Jake Lamotta

by The Red Menace on Jun 27, 2009 12:48 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why would Chris Paul find him annoying?

They couldn’t have been teammates for any length of time. Chris Paul finished up at Wake Forest in 2005. James Johson’s Freshman year of basketball was 2007. Even if Johnson red-shirted he would have been a true freshman in the 2006-2007 season…the season after Chris Paul was awarded rookie of the year in the NBA. I’m sure Paul goes back to work out at WF in the summer from time to time, but there’s no way you know if you can play with a college guy or not unless you endure at least a season with him.

So I find that part of that part a bit puzzling.

by lexdiamonds0730 on Jun 27, 2009 11:07 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

supposedly just from pick up games

I think it was in one of the draft threads. Evidently James Johnson likes to talk a lot of trash

by Jamaicanpi on Jun 27, 2009 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

"likes to talk a lot of trash"

The best stat I’ve heard on James Johnson so far today!

Judgement day when the Bulls play Chris Paul’s team and JJ get some playing time..

man up!

by exult463 on Jun 27, 2009 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If he's got the skills to back it up....

He can talk as much trash as he wants! Screw Chris Paul and his hairy armpits!!!

"You never got me down, Ray. Ya hear me? Never got me down."
-Jake Lamotta

by The Red Menace on Jun 27, 2009 4:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Johnson just went up a few notches in my book if this is the case.

The NBA is a man’s league. Chris Paul himself can be quite the annoying player for the opposition…due to his propensity to run his mouth a little…not to mention he can play the game some (understatement of the year). He’s as mentally tough as they come…and believe me when I say that’s 80-90 percent of the battle. Johnson has the physical tools to be a player. But if he’s got some mental toughness as well then he may very well make Luol Deng expendable.

Just think, could you see Luol Deng trash talking Chris Paul?? I think Chris Paul would scare him…LOL.

by lexdiamonds0730 on Jun 27, 2009 5:48 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Johnson's a martial artist,

I can imagine he wouldn’t be scared of too much.

Vinny Del Negro Offensive Gameplan, Part 1
-When there's less than 30 seconds left in the game, that's me with my hands cupped around my mouth yelling.
"BEN! SHOOT! SHOOOOTTTT!!! WHY AREN'T YOU LISTENING TO ME?!?"
-This segues nicely into my Timeout Management classes - order now!

by Prevenge on Jun 28, 2009 12:24 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Deng would walk over to the coach as ask "what should I say back" with his arms flying in bewilderment

and then yell

vas te faire encule Chris Paul

couldn’t find a Sudanese translation… so French will do, (Deng is the dignify statesmen)

man up!

by exult463 on Jun 29, 2009 6:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

and he's been sore at Johnson ever since!!!

Get it? Ha Ha HAAAAAAA Ha Ha!! Thank you, thank you i’m here all week.

"You never got me down, Ray. Ya hear me? Never got me down."
-Jake Lamotta

by The Red Menace on Jun 27, 2009 10:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

i was listening to a draft express podcast

and jonathan givony said johnson was one of only three players— and, two days before the draft, the most coveted among those three— that toronto was deeply interested in. i wonder if forman was thinking ahead to a possible bosh trade?

by TheMoon on Jun 30, 2009 1:37 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

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