I'd really like to see this guy next to R-Rose! Anyone else like his game? Anyone have an idea where he's going in the draft? Thoughts please...
over 2 years ago
Bulls4Ever
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He'd be a great fit if he could shoot, but he can't shoot, so he's not a good fit.
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on Jun 19, 2009 12:09 PM CDT reply actions
He made 38.5% of his 3's this year
And his improvement from 26.1% sophomore year to 34.0% junior year to now tells me he’s putting in the hard work and getting results. We don’t need a Ray Allen to knock down jumpers from all over. I’d take a Raja Bell / Bruce Bowen spot up 3pt shooter, and I think Williams can be that.
Good point
Thats kind of what im saying. He’s gotten better each year. Puts i nthe work. Had an NBA coach showing him the ropes. He’s a pretty well rounded player. He not great at any one thing just real solid at all things. Would be a nice addition to the squad. Solid pick at 16 IMO. Exp if we loose BG.
He makes open jumpers but he's crap whenever he has a hand in his face. He also can't really dribble. He's not a great finisher either.
Williams has plenty of flaws in his game, despite his box-score stuffing.
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on Jun 19, 2009 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions
Right, so he's not Ben Gordon
But alongside Rose, when do we need him to shoot with a hand in his face, or dribble, or finish inside? If he can act as a spot up 3pt shooter and a quality 2nd distributor, our offense works.
Of course you need the SG to finish inside
When is having 2 people who can attack the basket a bad thing? Just because Ben Gordon took bad shots doesn’t mean the next Bulls SG shouldn’t be able to hit them at all. Taking and making difficult shots are a part of the game, no one runs a perfect set offense the entire game.
That Steve Nash is exactly the same as Kirk Hinrich, but worse.
by NBA Observer on Apr 8, 2009 12:23 PM CDT
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 19, 2009 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't think he said having another guy
who can attack the basket is a bad thing. He just said that T-Will can play an effective role in the offense by hitting open threes and make the necessary passes in the offense. Presumably, with the growth of rose, we won’t need much more from the SG position than this. That’s not to say that we shouldn’t keep BG around – because I think we should – but if we lose him, it’s not like Williams would be an awful player (in theory) to slot next to Rose on the perimeter. I think he would fill the SG role just fine in the near future.
"Vinny continues to act like a crazed arsonist pouring gasoline on our season while running around carrying a torch yelling 'I’m in charge. Don’t any of you foolish knaves try to second guess me. I know gasoline is a liquid but I’m pretty sure it isn’t flammable and the odor gives me a natural high.'" - Tyrusmancrush
"Need" is different than "When is it a bad thing"
If we need to take a difficult shot, we have Derrick Rose. If we need to attack the basket, we have Derrick Rose.
As a 20 year old, Chris Paul had a 22.2 USG% and 38.2 AST%. This year, he had a 27.5 USG% and 54.5 AST%. Rose isn’t Paul, but I expect his share of the offense to increase dramatically in the next couple years. Having a SG who can knock down the three and swing the ball is a good thing. Williams is completely different than Gordon, it doesn’t mean he’s worse.
I also think that Williams at least has the potential to become a better finisher with work. He certainly has the tools for it.
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on Jun 19, 2009 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions
We could use an upgrade in that dept. over Gordon
BG is a fine shooter, but he isn’t great around the rim and doesn’t get the foul calls. If the Bulls want to go out and find someone who is like Thabo but doesn’t suck, that’s fine by me. Just don’t play him 11 minutes a game and expect miraculous growth.
That Steve Nash is exactly the same as Kirk Hinrich, but worse.
by NBA Observer on Apr 8, 2009 12:23 PM CDT
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 19, 2009 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Why didn't he ever improve his FT%? That's the easiest thing to do if you project to be a good shooter.
It screams fluke more to me.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
Bruce Bowen never did
He’s hit 40% of his threes the last five years while making about 61% of his free throws.
Yes, YaoPau, there are exceptions to every human-based statistical rule.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
He's an NBA athlete, but he's not a good finisher (despite the highlights) or shooter. He does everything else really well, though
D’s up, dishes out lots of assists, and rebounds extremely well for a SG prospect.
I don’t think he has NBA scoring ability though, so I have serious doubts about his ability to translate. Hollinger’s Draft Rater doesn’t think much of him either (he was ranked 19th).
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on Jun 19, 2009 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions
But Hollinger's Draft Rater projects offensive potential
And Williams don’t have much of it. His passing is incredible though… I estimate him at a 27.3 AST% this year, putting him right by the final college seasons of Dwyane Wade (28.8%), Chris Paul (27.8%), Chris Duhon (27.0%), and Jay Williams (26.2%). And he did that as a small forward.
With his combination of 3pt shooting, passing, and defense, I think he’s a good fit next to Rose.
He's got very low usage for a pro prospect and he wasn't very efficient with those few possessions that he used.
He only used 12.2 possessions per game and only score 1.02 points per those possessions. That’s really bad for a pro prospect. He’s a unique player, and I think he might be a fit next to Rose, but he’s got plenty of flaws.
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on Jun 19, 2009 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions
Everything your saying
sounds like its comming right from here
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Terrence-Williams-507/
Is that accurate or those your personal thoughts?
It's my personal thoughts coupled with facts I read on Draft Express.
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on Jun 19, 2009 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions
Usage can just mean he has good teammates, which he did
Besides, his USG% wasn’t that bad: I estimated it at 21.5%. Other players around that in their final college years: Russell Westbrok (21.7%), LaMarcus Aldridge (21.3%), Deron Williams (21.1%), Al Horford (20.9%).
I came up with a stat called RELY%, which is the percentage of team plays where you’re relied on to create offense, either by a scoring attempt, a pass that directly leads to a scoring attempt, or a turnover. It sounds kind of complicated, but it’s essentially a combination of USG% and AST%, and I like it because it better shows how much share a player has in the offense.
Stephen Curry led all prospects with a 58.5 RELY%. To put that into perspective Chris Paul led the NBA this year with a RELY% just over 61%. Terrence Williams was a 39.5% this year, putting him ahead of the final college seasons of Adam Morrison, Gerald Henderson, JJ Redick, Kevin Durant, and Blake Griffin.
The idea that Williams was a role player is wrong. He was one of the most important players to his college offense of anybody in this draft.
Also, just for future reference, you don't need to estimate USG%. You can go over to KenPom.com
and look at all the advanced stats for every player in college ball, just by finding their team. Your estimation was pretty darn close as Williams used had a usage, or poss% as Ken titles it, of 21.6%.
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on Jun 19, 2009 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions
So... I thought the Bulls already had someone they want to "rely on".
Someone to initiate the offense, someone to create a shot for a teammate, etc. This guy sounds redundant to Rose.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
Having two passers is really common
Sometimes three…
Paxson-Jordan-Pippen
Parker-Ginobili-Duncan
Fisher-Kobe-Shaq
He’s not redudant at all. It’s awkward, I know, coming off a year where we had just Rose who could pass for most of the season, to have a second passer. I’m sure Vinny would have no idea what to do.
Those guys can all score, though. Being able to pass is less of a weapon at the next level if you're not a
threat to score.
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on Jun 19, 2009 4:30 PM CDT up reply actions
I think what fundamentallysound is saying..
is that Williams could play a key role for some team, but in this draft he’s projected to go mid first, which is too high for a guy who can’t score in the NBA. We were comparing Gerald Henderson to Dahntay Jones on another post but now I’m starting to think Williams is a better comparison to Dahntay. He might be a better passer though.
I really liked Williams’ game in college, but I’m not sure he warrants more than a late first or second round pick. I’m a little higher on Earl Clark actually. If we can get him at 16 (not sure we can though) I’d be very interested.
by Rose Colored Goggles on Jun 19, 2009 2:32 PM CDT up reply actions
Alright, taking a look at the numbers...
As seniors…
Dahntay Jones:
57.9 TS%, 4.5 OREB%, 8.8 AST%, 11.1 TOV%, 26.3 USG%, 29.3 RELY%
Terrence Williams:
52.2 TS%, 4.0 OREB%, 27.3 AST%, 16.2 TOV%, 21.5 USG%, 39.5 RELY%
They’re completely different players. Dahntay was much more a scorer, while Williams killed him in AST% and steal/block rates. The good news is, there are plenty of great college scorers who don’t translate that ability to the NBA. If you can pass, you can pass.
Exactly
I think the difference in TS% might be attributed to the lack of jumpers Dahntay took at Duke. I could be wrong but I don’t really remember him every shooting the jump shot (or does TS% account for that?).
Either way, I think Wiliams is on par with Jones in ability level and will be as good of a pro (if put in the right situation).
by Rose Colored Goggles on Jun 19, 2009 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't think it's necessarily his shooting, but his dribbling.
I’m coming to that conclusion. He can shoot, but only spot up. He can dribble, but only in the open court and tries to avoid using his left hand. Creating one’s shot, attacking the rim, finishing, all involve one’s ability to transition from dribbling to shooting, and I don’t think he’s good at that. I wonder if he has small hands.
Of course, the FT% thing puts a big damper on that theory, though.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
seems like a more athletic Thabo with the same shooting problems. If he could shoot or learn to shoot better, then he’d be a great fit.
Thabo handled the ball a lot better than Williams. Williams can't go left.
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on Jun 19, 2009 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions
Some stats from this past season
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/player/gamelog?playerId=27275
I watched him 2 years ago and I thought he was pretty good but kind of a 1 man show and this year i thought he learned alot and took on a nice leadership/ distributor role for him team. Thats prolly why E Clark is so high on everyones board right now.
i do
but he doesnt look like he’ll be better in the nba…duno why
I was watching the 1995 Playoffs VS the Magic's and remembered how much I hated Horace Grant. Horace Grant - i hope you burn in bball hell
workin on dat shot!
I was watching the 1995 Playoffs VS the Magic's and remembered how much I hated Horace Grant. Horace Grant - i hope you burn in bball hell
That man needs to be a Memphis Grizzly
Isn’t he pretty much the ideal meat to stick between the Gay-Mayo sandwich?
Not really
Considering Mayo is clearly a 2 at this point and Gay is a 3. Those are both Williams positions. I see what you’re saying, though, in regards to his skill set (defense, passing, 3-point shooting), so I guess he’d fit well there whenever they (stupidly) slide Mayo over to the 1. Or maybe if they just want to give Conley a break and not bring in a backup.
"Vinny continues to act like a crazed arsonist pouring gasoline on our season while running around carrying a torch yelling 'I’m in charge. Don’t any of you foolish knaves try to second guess me. I know gasoline is a liquid but I’m pretty sure it isn’t flammable and the odor gives me a natural high.'" - Tyrusmancrush
heh, Gay Mayo sandwich. . . sounds like a long lost character from Aqua Teen Hunger Force.
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on Jun 19, 2009 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions
“The last line of Williams’ pregame monologue is a request for all his dead relatives — his father, Edgar; his grandparents Mary Jackson and Bobby Perkins; and two cousins — to ‘watch over me as I have fun.’ Their names are tattooed on his left arm and concealed by a compression sleeve that he says he wears to keep connected to them, spiritually. Williams may well be the only player to wear a sleeve solely for that reason, but he has always been sartorially idiosyncratic. He often wears custom-made photo T-shirts as tributes to teammates and coaches (his Pitino shirt has a shot of his coach playing point guard at UMass in the early ‘70s), and he sometimes shows up for practice wearing two different-colored shoes. At Seattle’s Rainier Beach High he would wear socks emblazoned with childhood icons (from Barney to Big Bird to SpongeBob) during games and carry his books in a Barbie backpack, just to be different.” Gotta love the Barbie backpack line …
"Rest satisified with doing well and leave others to talk of you as they please"
Wow
That’s the weirdest comment I’ve read on this blog in quite awhile. Props.
by Rose Colored Goggles on Jun 19, 2009 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions
reminds me of J.R. Smith
and considering Skiles banished Smith before we got a chance to see him in action in a Bulls uniform, I’d say it’s only fair we get anther chance
by chitownsports25 on Jun 19, 2009 2:34 PM CDT reply actions
I just
think his passing, defense, rebounding would go so far on this team. He would make Deng a better player, he would make Rose a better scorer, he’s smart, palyed 4 years of ball in college. He’s a winner!
Is he the best shooter/scorer in this draft? Hell No.
Could he immediately help this Bulls team? Yes i think so.
Are there other players that could also help this team? Yes.
Are we in danger of loosing our starting SG? yes.
Does it make some sense to grab some insurance for BG? Yeah i think so.
This kids is tops in like 3 out of 5 stat cats for SG’s. Ill take that.
Can you teach this guy to shoot? Yes of course..
Could his game evolve and will his skills improve playing with the likes of DR? Hell yeah
Does he have a good work ethic? Stats support the fact that he works on his game.
I like this guy not for what he isnt but for what he is? He would improve our team game, he wont ever replace BG but I wouldnt feel so bad having this kid in there if we do. Another factor to remember is on his college team the opponents were scouting him and tried stopping him. On the Bulls thats D Rose problem which should give him plenty of nice open looks. Thats something he really didnt have in college. he should blossom from being a 2-3 banana.
hmm...
I think he could contribute on our team, but he’s not a replacement for BG. I’m not saying he’s never going to be as good as BG — he’s just not the same player. Yes, they play the same position but he does none of the things that Gordon did for our team (i.e. score) but does a lot fo things Gordon couldn’t do (i.e. pass, defend and rebound).
Neither player is a very good ball handler, so that’s a wash. I like Williams, but if you’re trying to get him to replace what Gordon brought to the table, sorry, I just don’t think he’s that guy (think more along the lines of Jeff Teague or Patty Mills).
by Rose Colored Goggles on Jun 19, 2009 3:52 PM CDT reply actions
Def not looking
for him to replace BG! Aint happening. Like you said hes the anti BG. The things he does well Bg doesnt do so well. The things BG does well TWill doesnt do well. Tyger your kind of making him sound like a bum. This guys a legit top 20 talent. Whether he fits or not is the question. I tend to think he fits well. He runs the floor well, finishes, plays good defense, strong, good size. At pick 16 what do you have to loose. if Bg goes via FA then what? Gonna start KH or JS at sg? That doesnt work for me. With the way LD gets hurt, the way the BG thing might play out, i think it would be wise to go after a NBA ready guy like T Will who could potentially play a 2-3 if need be.. That just my opinion though.. Also i think he’s better that Jeff Teague and Patty MIlls.
a bum?
like you said, it’s all relative to the bulls. If they lose Gordon, they’ll have one player on the team (re: going forward, post-Salmons) who can create his own shot. That’s not enough for me. Sorry.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
If this were a year ago and he were coming out with the same profile, I'd say "definitely".
At that point, I thought Deng would be coming in full strength and excellent, Rose would one day be great and Tyrus Thomas would eventually be able to handle a bigger offensive role. Well, 1 out of 3 ain’t so hot. If you have three guys on the team who can score really well, I think he’s a good fit.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
Okay smart guy..
What about Derozen? He’s a better athelete, better shooter, he’s not the defensive player that TWill is but defense can be taught.
"You never got me down, Ray. Ya hear me? Never got me down."
-Jake Lamotta
by The Red Menace on Jun 19, 2009 11:01 PM CDT up reply actions
I was watching the 1995 Playoffs VS the Magic's and remembered how much I hated Horace Grant. Horace Grant - i hope you burn in bball hell
I don't know.
I’m only twelve years old, but aren’t i cute?
"You never got me down, Ray. Ya hear me? Never got me down."
-Jake Lamotta
by The Red Menace on Jun 20, 2009 9:23 AM CDT up reply actions
He's a worse shooter.
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on Jun 20, 2009 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions
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