Congrats to your tax-paying, financially irresponsible, champion Lakers
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 15, 2009 8:15 AM CDT
159 comments
With all the talk about the Bulls gaining flexibility and reducing payroll and the big bad luxury tax, the NBA Championship (which is the goal, right?) was just won by a team far into the luxury tax, and with several players either overpaid and/or on bad long-term deals.
The Lakers didn't see the need to let talent walk now to get different yet potentially better talent later. They kept their riches and got even richer.
The Bulls are in a unique position (through the Rose lottery miracle and unmatched financial might) to have both a ridiculous amount of young talent and the expiring contracts to steal someone from a team looking to dump a high-priced (yet very good) player. But they've managed to convince their fanbase that we can't have it all, and shouldn't even bother asking for it.
And it's reasonable to think Gasol isn't worth max money, Odom's way overpaid at $14m per. Bynum, Walton, Vujacic received premature or overpriced extensions. That an aged Derek Fisher didn't deserve the full MLE. But while it's better to be smarter with the money and just as good, there's something to be said for spending your way out of mistakes. Risky, sure. But if you're a Lakers fan today, I doubt you care.
(oh, and congrats to Phil Jackson! Mostly as a flip of the finger to Celtics dorks)
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well put
that may be the biggest crime of the scott layden/isiah thomas era knicks— they’ve made people think that spending money is somehow a hindrance to success and given cheapo owners an excuse to not pay anyone
by Calogero on Jun 15, 2009 8:32 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The Lakers have let players walk
They didn’t re-sign Turiaf, and they traded Radmanovic for Morrison’s expiring contract. And if I’m not mistaken, they’ve never extended Odom or Gasol, just paid their incoming contracts. Vujacic and Walton were bad deals they’ve held onto, but that hasn’t helped them any – neither made a peep in the playoffs.
Getting Gasol and Ariza for nothing is a big help.
by YaoPau on Jun 15, 2009 9:14 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
"Vujacic and Walton were bad deals they’ve held onto, but that hasn’t helped them any "
that’s what I’m getting at. They’ve made spending mistakes and somehow persevered.
Turiaf is a good point, if they spent even more he’d be better than DJ MBenga. They weren’t using Radmanovic and Phil hated him, moving him for expirings was a no-brainer.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 15, 2009 9:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Ariza deal was a huge win
That Brian Cook contract was allegedly untradeable and to acquire a starter that could defend by trading him is just unbelievable.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jun 15, 2009 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That deal and the Gasol deals were big wins for the Lakers...
I still can’t believe the gift the Lakers got in getting Gasol for next to nothing.
by SouthernCub on Jun 15, 2009 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
don't forget
how fisher was gifted through the generous nature of jazz owner larry miller.
don’t overlook how much pressure fisher takes off of both bryant and gasol.
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
by marionette on Jun 15, 2009 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
they didn't resign turiaf because he sucked and they had Bynum
they traded Radmonovic because they had Ariza and Walton and they managed to pick up Brown in that deal. Walton and Vujacic were both part of the rotation, but vastly overpaid, which proves yfbb’s point. They would have not been able to Gasol if they hadn’t been paying Kwame Brown and they would not have gotten Ariza if they weren’t paying Brian Cook.
The Lakers are overpaying for several players. I don’t think you refuted yfbb’s point in the least.
by Basketball Smurf on Jun 15, 2009 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
to follow up
if the Bulls had a better player than Gordon on the roster (I know you believe they do, I don’t) than I would be more willing to let him go. But the Lakers didn’t let any asset walk. They paid their assets and moved them for better players. When you are a mediocre team, you should be acquiring assets. Not letting players walk. If you let Gordon walk you can’t include him in a trade. You lose an asset for nothing. That is not what teams trying to win championships do.
by Basketball Smurf on Jun 15, 2009 3:07 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Gasol was a gift from the heavens
I don’t think the “keep Kwame till he has an expiring contract, then hope a Gasol for Kwame trade comes along” method should be used as a blueprint.
You lose an asset for nothing. That is not what teams trying to win championships do.
I’d argue that’s what teams that are mediocre for a long time didn’t do. Eddy Curry was technically an “asset”, and the Knicks held onto him when they should’ve cast him off the moment they realized he wasn’t helping.
But let’s look at what past champions actually did:
2009 Lakers – drafted Kobe and Bynum, traded Shaq for Odom, made two amazing trades to get Gasol and Ariza for nothing, signed Fisher cheap.
2008 Celtics – drafted Pierce, Rondo, Perkins, traded their young talent for Kevin Garnett, traded a draft pick for Ray Allen, had a couple nice last picks to round out the roster
2007/2005/2003 Spurs – drafted Duncan, Parker, Ginobili, rounded out their roster with vets
2006 Heat – drafted Wade, traded two big assets in Odom and Caron Butler, and Brian Grant’s contract for Shaq, surrounded them with vets
2005 Pistons – drafted Prince, signed Billups, traded nobodies for Rasheed, traded Grant Hill for Ben Wallace, traded Stackhouse for Hamilton
Signing and trading Gordon in the future would be like the Odom/Butler/Shaq deal, or even the deal for Rasheed. If signing Gordon gives us a better shot at landing Bosh, I’m all for it. But that should be the mindset going in, and we should be sure that’s a better option than having cap space, because the numbers so strongly say that having Gordon on the floor hurts us.
by YaoPau on Jun 15, 2009 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Personally, I do think it gives a better chance to get those players.
A sign-and-trade provides the best contract for the free agent.
An extra guaranteed $22 million is a big deal to those players. If the Bulls have Hinrich, Gordon and Deng still on the roster, they can let Phoenix, Toronto or Miami take their pick of one of those guys, take their pick of Thomas or Noah and take draft picks. By doing this, the Bulls still have a solid team and assets to build around.
If the Bulls don’t have Gordon, they MUST rely on Deng to be healthy and productive enough to be included in a sign-and-trade (and needed), otherwise the Bulls won’t even have that option (because has a slim chance of being the player one of those teams would want back)
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Jun 15, 2009 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If the Bulls don't have Gordon
It’s one more reason for another good player (Bosh, Amare, Gasol, etc) not to want to come here. Whether he’s being signed, traded, or whatever.
by Sports2 on Jun 15, 2009 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, that too.
I really think if they keep this team together, it can win 50 games next year. Even if it would be largely attributable to probable outgoing players like Miller, Hinrich, etc. you can’t tell me that this same team, 50 wins, all this young talent, isn’t a very attractive destination.
(I reserve the right to say that I didn’t mean losing Gordon would cause them to lose a lot less games.)
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Jun 15, 2009 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
First off the Curry example is ridiculous
Because the Bulls traded him for Tyrus and Noah. I don’t care what the Knicks did, we held onto the asset until we got something for him.
Your championship example also support my point. The 2009 Lakers, 2008 Celtics, 2006 Heat and 2005 Pistons all made trades that brought them in the player that they needed. They had the assets, and thus were able to make trades.
And your numbers say having Gordon on the floor hurt us. I’m sorry, but I’m not an APM convert. Anything that shows up on the statistic that you don’t like, you call noise. You pick and choose which numbers you cite. I don’t care for APM. Its not proven. According to you, the Telfair/Foye backcourt should be one of the best in the league. Its not even close. So by other numbers – Gordon is the bulls most efficient scorer, he has the teams highest PER and win share (although I think win share is crap) and he has the Bulls leading scorer and only guy able to make a play in the crunch for the last 5 freaking years. So I’m sorry, don’t tell me having Gordon on the floor hurts us “by the numbers.” Because you haven’t come close to proving that point.
by Basketball Smurf on Jun 15, 2009 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Gordon BAD (noise!) Salmons GOOD (noise!!!)
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Jun 15, 2009 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're being disagreeable
I wrote in my APM post that 1-year APMs are basically useless, yet you say:
According to you, the Telfair/Foye backcourt should be one of the best in the league.
If you’re going tell me what I wrote, read what I wrote first. Your citing of PER, a stat that means nothing (is a 18 PER player 20% better than a 15 PER player?) means you don’t know what the numbers are saying. You’re right about win shares though :)
by YaoPau on Jun 15, 2009 4:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"(is a 18 PER player 20% better than a 15 PER player?)"
eh, roughly. Which is how I use PER anyway, as a big blunt stick. :)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 15, 2009 4:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not going to get into a stat argument with you
but I understand how PER works. Gordon was the most efficient player on the team. I never used PER the way you say I used PER. I never said he was 20% better than anyone. I just wanted to show that by other statistical metrics, Gordon is the Bulls best player.
And you routinely use one year APMs to draw conclusions about players. I just don’t think APM is the end all begin all stat you believe it to be. I think you over rely on it to make your analysis. But that is fine. My point is that Gordon is a productive player who has been a net positive on this team, and we shouldn’t let him go for nothing. You disagree. That is your right.
by Basketball Smurf on Jun 15, 2009 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And you routinely use one year APMs to draw conclusions about players.
Huh? Now you’re just making shit up.
by YaoPau on Jun 15, 2009 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you are probably right
i thought you used one year APM in your argument with Fundamentally sound, but it was actually him who cited it.
Still, I don’t care for APM. And my making shit up is no worse than you claiming I don’t know how PER works.
I don’t like APM because you can’t use one year numbers. If I have to wait 2 to 3 years to find out how productive Rose is, than its not worth the effort. Especially since in 3 years, a player can change so dramatically. Even for two year APM the margin of error can be significant. I’m not a fan. One obvious example is your suggestion that we get Anthony Parker because of his 5 year APM. Well, he is a dramatically different player now than he was 5 years ago. APM may be good at telling you what happened over time, but is not a strong predictive measure, at least from what I’ve seen. The large year to year variance gives me pause.
And the larger point was that I don’t believe that it proves Gordon is not a good player. Especially in light of other statistical measures that show he is effective. So I’m done discussing APM. If you like to move on from that, have at it.
by Basketball Smurf on Jun 15, 2009 4:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you understand PER
then you’re the only one in the world who understands PER. Hollinger admits it doesn’t rate individual defense, yet he gives steals and blocks and defensive rebounds big weight, and somehow has a formula to convert his offense-only stat into a Wins Over Replacement figure. It makes no sense, and it doesn’t correlate well with the unbiased offensive APM numbers (Hollinger underrates assists, for example).
You may be right that APM is not a strong predictive measure, I haven’t given it enough of a look, but you’re right that it’s great at describing the past. If I argued “Chris Bosh would make the Bulls 10 wins better”, that would merely be an educated guess. But I’m saying “Ben Gordon hurts the Bulls”, which has held true over time. There wouldn’t be an issue of fit, APM knows how he fits into the Bulls, and he hasn’t fit well.
Do you think Gordon’s going to improve dramatically? Do you see his role changing dramatically? If not, then there’s no reason why his APM numbers would change. And even if his 2.73 noise was the factor that caused Gordon’s -4.95 2-year APM… there’s just a 1.47% chance his actual APM was over +1. At +1, would that be worth $10 million a year?
Convert of APM or not, there’s an overwhelming amount of evidence to suggest he’s not worth the pricetag. And yet you’d toss that aside to say Gordon has a good PER. I know you like to look at some of the 82games stats, you’ll like APM the more you look into it.
by YaoPau on Jun 15, 2009 5:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
in my defense, I did it to prove that Gordon was good and Salmons stinks :-P
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on Jun 15, 2009 6:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
turiaf "sucks"
if you consider 4.76 blocks per 48 min “sucking”.
dwight howard got 3.93 blocks per 48, for reference.
and, turiaf’s contract is 4.5m, declining to 4.0m in ‘10-’11. that’s less than half the theoretical ben gordon money.
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
by marionette on Jun 15, 2009 3:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd certainly
Love to see him keep up that 4.76 blocks for the additional 15 minutes that Howard played….greater sample size = tougher to get those numbers.
Turiaf’s a role player that does his role well on a team that desperately needs more D…..
I don’t disagree with your point, but just hate when people say, Joe X scored 20pts per 48 minutes despite playing only 20 minutes per game. If he had 40 minutes he’d definitely score 40 pts per game or mid 30’s….
Turiaf’s a guy ripe to see that avg dwindle if he played more. THe fact that it was so high was likely more do to role and coach/mgmt….of minutes.
Tyger1147 is a douche bag
by majoyenrac on Jun 15, 2009 4:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh, go away will you?
i’m not stupid, despite how it may read to you, i swear!!!!!!!!!!
pace blah blah…. 20 minutes off the bench vs starter must stay in the game blah blah blah….
dude said he sucked, so i responded. stop splitting hairs!
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
by marionette on Jun 15, 2009 4:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
because block rate is the true measure of a player
its the only thing that matters!!!
by Basketball Smurf on Jun 15, 2009 4:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Calm down
I was just making a point how frustrating that kind of a stat talk is….
Tyger1147 is a douche bag
by majoyenrac on Jun 16, 2009 7:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also
Others in the league have been dumb enough to hand out huge contracts to low minute high per minute stat guys (Jim Mcilvane is one who comes to mind)…
Tyger1147 is a douche bag
by majoyenrac on Jun 16, 2009 7:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jim McIlvaine isn't an example of this.
The only thing he did well in limited minutes was block shots, which is something he did well no matter how many minutes he played. The guy had a career high PER of 10 when Seattle gave him that ridiculous contract.
by Scotter on Jun 16, 2009 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
PER wasn't measured then
He got that contract because of the blocks he had in limited minutes and projections off of that thinking he’d also mature a bit and grow as a player (never happened)….
THE BULLS ARE GOING TO WIN IN 2010....maybe by stating this the positive vibes can make it happen.
by majoyenrac on Jun 16, 2009 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So, we should assume that teams haven't learned from their mistakes
or become more advanced in their statistical analysis?
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on Jun 16, 2009 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Um...
Jason Kapono is one key that comes to mind….
There are plenty of them that look at 1 thing and overpay for it.
THE BULLS ARE GOING TO WIN IN 2010....maybe by stating this the positive vibes can make it happen.
by majoyenrac on Jun 16, 2009 4:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My use of PER was a shorthand for everything else about his game clearly sucked.
They definitely kept track of points, rebounds, and turnovers and he sucked in all of those areas. McIlvaine isn’t a example of a failure of per minute stats.
by Scotter on Jun 16, 2009 6:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But they focused on the 1
And hoped that the rest would be better after age and time.
Why else would he get that contract? Teams don’t spend for nothing.
THE BULLS ARE GOING TO WIN IN 2010....maybe by stating this the positive vibes can make it happen.
by majoyenrac on Jun 17, 2009 5:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
how many minutes does he play a game off the Golden State bench?
and is he better than Bynum? If you would rather have Turiaf than Bynum, than hey, I disagree, but you are entitled to your opinion.
In 21 minutes per game Turiaf averaged 6pts and 5 rebounds. He is a 50% shooter. He is a foul machine. But congratulations on the excellent block rate, it led Golden State to the championship. Wait, no. Maybe suck was too harsh. But the point is, you don’t win championships by paying everyone exactly what they are worth. You win championships by having the best talent. Sometimes you have to overpay for that talent. I’d rather have Gordon at 9 million per than Turiaf at 4.5 million because Gordon is a far better player.
by Basketball Smurf on Jun 15, 2009 4:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe after another year
of typical Bulls meddling, Derrick will have reached a level in his ascension where he can take a page from Kobe and start demanding that Paxdorf get guys around him who can take them to the next leve.
Not to say Rose is anywhere near Kobe’s level of stardom yet, but I think w/ JR’s hardheadedness and the way he surrounds himself w/ yesmen, maybe what needs to happen is a player – and a player they’ve invested the franchise in – stepping up and calling out the ownership to start getting serious with a Championship-type plan.
We haven’t seen anything like that since the Jordan era, but I also believe we haven’t had a player of that caliber since MJ retired.
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
by Ugh It Live! on Jun 15, 2009 9:25 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Ben Gordon called for it!
though, he’s not Kobe :)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 15, 2009 9:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If only Ben were 3-4 inches taller...
he could be seriously compared to Kobe, especially offensively. But in all seriousness…Rose was never a 6th man, never had to earn his spot and was the #1 overall pick. If there’s anyone who could demand some solid surrounding talent, it’s him.
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
by Ugh It Live! on Jun 15, 2009 9:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can't be serious...
Comparing Ben Gordon to Kobe Bryant…One is an elite player, multiple all-star, led the league in scoring, league MVP and Finals MVP while the other none of those things. Ben Gordon is talented, but he is not in the same tier of talent as Kobe.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Jun 15, 2009 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wasn't...
hence the immediate phrase “but in all seriousness”
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
by Ugh It Live! on Jun 15, 2009 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
D2.0 had a sensor and alarm go off that prevented any rational thought.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Jun 15, 2009 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ben Gordon is a bad man who disrespects his teammates. :(
Or a visionary who knows how championships can be won. Snap! Now I am confused. Lets get rid of him so I don’t have to be conflicted anymore.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
by cranscape on Jun 15, 2009 9:36 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Did Derrick Rose cheat on his SAT's?
Is Joakim Noah still on pot?
Gah! This is so confusing! I wonder if Chris Wallace will trade us some of his guys for all our players. At least we’ll have kirk. Good, solid, dependable Kirk.
-I was wrong about Pau Gasol. I have been shamed. :(
by Prevenge on Jun 15, 2009 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Does Eddie Robinson play basketball anymore?
Man if we only had him, he’d be the tall off-guard we need. Well, he’s kind of a SF, but what a dunker!
I think Gordon’s a starter on about half the teams in the league, and should be paid. He’s been healthy, and worse deals than 11mil/year for an average starting 2 have been moved easily. But 6 years is a long contract, and DR is still about 3 years away from being a dominant player, so cap space would lend us flexibility in the far future. I’d try for a sign-and-trade for what another team would offer him. I think we’re bidding against ourselves right now, and someone needs to value him before we pay “that man his money”, Teddy KGB style.
by cubbybear on Jun 16, 2009 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can we now admit that we should have given up Deng and Gordon for Kobe?
Yeah, I know one of the holdups was that Kobe had a no-trade clause and didn’t want Deng included in the deal, but people were seriously arguing on here that the Bulls shouldn’t do the deal based on talent alone.
Why resort to name calling?
-Dionysus2.0
because I wish to insult you personally
-your friendly BullsBlogger
by Big D on Jun 15, 2009 9:29 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
yeah, I thought it was too much
but back then they were one piece away, so we (I) thought.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 15, 2009 9:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't think Deng was a star
until the Lakers and Kobe kept talking him up. Then I started to think maybe we shouldn’t trade him since everyone thinks he’s good. Now I am back to my original thinking. Probably good I don’t make any decisions for them. I am way too easily swayed.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
by cranscape on Jun 15, 2009 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
very good insightful point to remind us
Lakers are partly responsible for Deng’s blotted contract, because it certainly wasn’t becasue of his clutch performances in a Bulls uniform..
man up!
by exult463 on Jun 15, 2009 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I liked his Miami series
as much as the next person, but it was because of his super efficient jumper rather than glimpses of stardom. On a well balanced and healthy team he can bring you that. Just don’t expect him to be the x-factor/spark/creative player who can bring a struggling team together. He really is a 4th guy to me. Great to have around once you have 1-3 in place.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
by cranscape on Jun 15, 2009 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he can be more than that.
On a perimeter-oriented team(dominant guards, quick forwards and centers), I think the space can lead to lots of cuts to the basket and some foul shots and layups. It seems to me like DR will play well with him in the future, DR drawing a double near the lane, kicking out for a mid-range jumper, or another drive to the basket and another kickout. Anyway, he’s a jack of most trades, and could end up being a Lamar Odom type player for us, doing whatever the team needs.
by cubbybear on Jun 16, 2009 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think Deng has Odom's ability with the ball in his hands...
but I do agree that Deng could be more than a jumpshooter. He’s very good at moving without the ball, especially along the baseline. I agree that that could eventually work really well with a guy like Rose.
The problem is that Deng is really ONLY good at playing without the ball. When he gets it, if he’s not immediately in finishing position (either leaping to the rim or taking a jumper) he doesn’t seem to do much. Odom, on the other hand, can create his own shot – both in the post and off the dribble. And he can pass. Deng doesn’t really have either of those aspects of his game (at least not yet).
by SouthernCub on Jun 16, 2009 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But DR is a facilitator
Or will be. I think Isiah’s Piston’s are a better model to look at than Kobe’s team, which honestly seems a lot like the 85-90 Bulls, playing a lot of isolation off their best player.
You’re right about Deng though. He needs to develop more post game or his dribbling, as either would help his game to open up the floor. If he could draw a double 6 feet from the basket, he’d be a great weapon.
by cubbybear on Jun 16, 2009 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was just referring to the Odom comparison...
I agree that Deng can potentially be more useful with Rose. But Rose alone can’t carry an offense, and what Odom provides is more versatility than what Deng offers.
by SouthernCub on Jun 16, 2009 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
Deng to me is like a worse Ray Allen, adding a dimension or two, but not a complete skillset to the team.
by cubbybear on Jun 16, 2009 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't see a correlation at all between Deng and Ray Allen
I get that sentiment at the end (Odom is more versatile) but that’s a bad comparions. Allen’s a great 1 trick pony, a senational 1 trick (or 2 trick, great shooter, underrated slashing scorer, but a fantastic shooter).
Luol doesn’t have any single “oh wow” skill, but he’s good because he can do a bit of everything good to well…..
THE BULLS ARE GOING TO WIN IN 2010....maybe by stating this the positive vibes can make it happen.
by majoyenrac on Jun 16, 2009 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought it was
Deng, Gordon, Ben Wallace, Hinrich for Kobe and some crappy fillers…..
And I thought and still think that’s too much…..we’d be decimated…..but then again I thought Ben was still closer to his vintage self, and thought more of Deng 2 years ago than I do today.
Tyger1147 is a douche bag
by majoyenrac on Jun 15, 2009 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who's earned themself money in the last few weeks?
Trevor Ariza, Hedo Turkoglu or Llamar Odom?
I’d say Turk but watchout for those Knicks. Ariza might just sucker them into huge deal.
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
by Ugh It Live! on Jun 15, 2009 9:48 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Maybe Ariza will hold a grudge
for the Larry Brown era.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 15, 2009 9:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lamar
must’ve been my ‘Revenge of the Nerds’ preference subconsciously spelling that for me.
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
by Ugh It Live! on Jun 15, 2009 9:50 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
The Bulls are the annual Forbes profitability champions
They’ll be going for their 11th straight title next year, so goodbye Ben.
Why resort to name calling?
-Dionysus2.0
because I wish to insult you personally
-your friendly BullsBlogger
by Big D on Jun 15, 2009 9:53 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I wonder where those banners are hanging?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 15, 2009 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I read your comment wrong
Nevermind
by NittanyCub on Jun 15, 2009 10:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right on the fireplace mantle next to the World Series trophy
That Steve Nash is exactly the same as Kirk Hinrich, but worse.
by NBA Observer on Apr 8, 2009 12:23 PM CDT
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 15, 2009 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
In the bank.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
by cranscape on Jun 15, 2009 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
In the White Sox's office
to pay for their team
-I was wrong about Pau Gasol. I have been shamed. :(
by Prevenge on Jun 15, 2009 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Right next to Michael Jordan's 35 million contract
To show him how nice it is not to have a contender or the best player of an era.
by cubbybear on Jun 16, 2009 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, and the Lakers are even splitting the cost on their own championship parade
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-parade15-2009jun15,0,5460103.story
If the Bulls win during a recession, the parade route would probably be a circle around the Berto Center.
That Steve Nash is exactly the same as Kirk Hinrich, but worse.
by NBA Observer on Apr 8, 2009 12:23 PM CDT
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 15, 2009 10:18 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Pay the luxury tax, bring the whole team back add 2 rookies (Blair, and a point guard) and
the bulls are gonna be ready for next season…….hopefully.
Chicago: Where Derrick Rose happens
by Juan dela Cruz on Jun 15, 2009 10:25 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Yay...
Bring back a .500 team with two rookies…that will get you games in June.
Oh, that is sarcasm.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Jun 15, 2009 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gonna have to agree there
The team as constituted is not a contender.
The problem is that any viable means of getting into contention for this team means paying up front, which this team is loathe to do. Hence, we’re remain marginal and mediocre.
by Sports2 on Jun 15, 2009 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But if they're close half way
we can pull off a trade with a team looking to dump salary or get a guy they know they will not be able to sign using a bunch of the expiring contracts we have. We’re in a good position to make a deal, with or without Ben… I would prefer to resign him, but understand they have to plan for both possibilities.
by 72-10 on Jun 15, 2009 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think they're really at a crossroads
I think this team with an improved Rose, a major acquisition like Bosh, a re-signed Gordon and a willingness to spend wisely on supporting pieces has a 6-8 year window where it could get to the Finals every year.
I think this team without all of those individual ingredients is likely headed toward mediocrity. Worse still, success begets success and failure begets failure. If the Bulls don’t capitalize on their strong end to this year, and simply tread water or take a step back next year, I think it gets harder to make the sort of big splash they need to make.
by Sports2 on Jun 15, 2009 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
FIRE VINNY!!!!
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Jun 15, 2009 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
+1
Hire Pip! Just kidding.
Is Doug Collins available? Just kidding again.
Avery’s voice is annoying, apparently to basketball players as well as myself. I think he could teach Rose well, and showed some good skills in Dallas, including working for a crazy organization.
by cubbybear on Jun 16, 2009 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah definitely not.
Sometimes the closer you are, the harder it is to rebuild. See Boston 2 years ago v. Detroit now.
by cubbybear on Jun 16, 2009 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
to be fair
they were better than a .500 team after the Sacto trade. The Bulls if they keep this roster intact, should compete for a top 4 seed behind Boston, Cleveland and Orlando. A top 4 seed for the current roster is not out of the question.
by Basketball Smurf on Jun 15, 2009 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
To be fair...
They played a disproportionate number of their games after the trade at home without Luol Deng.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Jun 15, 2009 9:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
so Luol Deng is going to bring the team down?
i think YaoPau would like to disagree with you. I think there is evidence to suggest that this team could compete for a top 4 seed. Rose’s improvement, a full season of Salmons/Miller, the return of Deng, coaching improvement from VDN. Do you not believe they can compete for a top 4 seed if they brought everyone back, or are you just being a contrarian?
And seriously, what is your plan? You seem more invested in not paying Gordon than actually finding a way to improve the team.
by Basketball Smurf on Jun 15, 2009 10:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Luol Deng brought the team down last season.
What evidence is there that this team could compete for a top 4 seed? That they won down the stretch while playing 57% of their games at home? Schedule makers will not allow that over an entire season…I will give you that Vinny and Rose will get better, but last season it took 47 wins to be top four last season…
My plan doesn’t matter at this point…I have no control. In my opinion, everyone should be on the trading block except Derrick Rose and the Bulls should not draft two players this year, and probably not even one…beyond that, it is too early, as the players with options have not been forced to opt, the free agents are not yet free, the salary cap has not been set…
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Jun 16, 2009 8:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
what evidence is that this team could compete for a top 4 seed?
i don’t know, they almost caught Atlanta, Miami and Philly last year and those teams aren’t exactly gearing up to make big pushes. When I look at the talent level of the Bulls in comparison to those 4 teams, I think it is not out of the question the Bulls could finish ahead of all 3 of those teams. It is not just VDN and Rose who will improve. Tyrus and Noah should get better as well. Luol Deng should be better than playing Tim Thomas minutes. There is no reason to believe anyone will take a step back. I guess I’m more optimistic than you and yfbb. I guess that makes me like 99% of the people in the world though.
by Basketball Smurf on Jun 16, 2009 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Elton Brand comes back healthy
And works well in the new system, that’s a big obstacle.
THE BULLS ARE GOING TO WIN IN 2010....maybe by stating this the positive vibes can make it happen.
by majoyenrac on Jun 16, 2009 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And they went something like 14-7, a .667 win percentage, a 55-win pace.
50 wins is 60.9%. If you expect any improvement from Rose and a contribution from Deng, it’s very possible. It’s not like you think they’ll miss Ben Gordon or anything. I mean, won’t Salmons and Hinrich being taking better shots anyway? That’s like, seven areas of expected improvement right there. From a team that finished the season on a 55-win pace. Whoa.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Jun 15, 2009 10:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No they didnt. They went 15-11 after those players joined the team.
In order to accomplish this feat, they played 15 home games and 11 road games. I don’t think the schedule makers will allow the Bulls to 47 home games next season.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Jun 16, 2009 8:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm with you
they’re not as good as they finished. We’re talking post-Amare deal. Sure they’ll start out underwhelming and Vinny gets fired. But THEN we get the George Karl-esque bump and finish on a tear. done.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 16, 2009 9:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
In what way are you talking?
On how many wins they got? I don’t think anyone is saying they are a 55-win team, are they? At least I know that I explicitly said I don’t think they are that good.
Or, how they “played”? I don’t think they played that great. They looked like a moderately-above-average team. You don’t think they were that?
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Jun 16, 2009 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Any team who
stinks it up in front of Obama like that against a crap team can only be average. Our schedule was easy and we had a lot of home games. We still lost a bunch of head-scratchers and showed a lot of weakness despite the win total. The trade changed the flavor of the team a little bit, but we still did a lot of stupid things.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
by cranscape on Jun 16, 2009 4:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There were two conditions in your statement: "after the trade" & "without Luol Deng."
I was referencing that and was off one game. Luol Deng’s last game was February 28. We did a prediction thread, somewhere, of the last 20-22 games, and they pretty much did what everyone expected.
They went 14-8 with 13 home games in March and April. Oh!!! 55-win pace. I said they aren’t that good. And it’s not as if they only won home games either.
But you have your own world (that apparently yfBB has joined) so I don’t know why I bother.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Jun 16, 2009 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
not sure where I'm aligned between this argument, I got lost somewhere.
I agree they’re not as good as their 55-win pace to end last season. And think they won’t get to 55 wins next year with the same team.
The reason starts with ‘vinny’ and ends with ‘sucks’
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 16, 2009 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
they actually went 17-11 after the trade
and I don’t buy that Luol Deng is going to drag the team down.
by Basketball Smurf on Jun 16, 2009 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because you foresee a plan that gets the Bulls into June next year anyway, right?
D2.0 strategy for winning:
1. ?
2. ?
3. ?
4. SUCCESS!!!
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Jun 15, 2009 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So you support keeping the entire team intact?
Or you are just being…nevermind, I will leave the name calling to others on this board.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Jun 15, 2009 9:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gasol
Might not be worth Kobe esque max money—and he ain’t there, he’s a good $5M lower….
But he’s definitely worth every penny he’s getting, and frankly I’d have Pau here anyday for $2-3M more a year than Luol Deng, and that’s the Paxson-Bulls’s biggest mistake.
Not only does Pau fit our most glaring need the last 10 years…..but he’s really really really good and still underappreciated….though if they win again next year, that will go away.
The Lakers getting Gasol has to be the biggest gift in sports history.
Tyger1147 is a douche bag
by majoyenrac on Jun 15, 2009 10:38 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Pau is good
but give credit where it’s due. Jackson (and Kurt Rambis) helped Pau develop the mental and physical toughness and really helped him become an inside rebounding/scoring force. I’m not sure I can say he would’ve done the same had he came here.
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
by Ugh It Live! on Jun 15, 2009 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pau
Was a fantastic leader of a 50 game winning team in the West long before he went to LA….the problem was he got hurt, missed 23 games to start the year, came back early and tried to make a go of it, but the team was awful without him….and Memphis quit.
They tried to use him as a scapegoat just to move him because the owners are cheap…but I see a guy with an almost 22 PER career, and one who had a 29PER in the playoffs before LA….
Pau is good, was good, was underappreciated for being on a bad team, and now is making the rest of the league look like morons for not jumping on that deal.
Tyger1147 is a douche bag
by majoyenrac on Jun 15, 2009 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Pau was already a dominant scorer
He improved his defensive effort, but he was always a tough player. Getting pushed around by Kendrick Perkins and Kevin Garnett will make anyone look weak.
That Steve Nash is exactly the same as Kirk Hinrich, but worse.
by NBA Observer on Apr 8, 2009 12:23 PM CDT
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 15, 2009 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My post was more of a knock at the Bulls coaching
staff…I’m not saying that Pau wasn’t a great player. I just meant that following the Boston series where he was physically outmached, Jackson/Rambis made it a point to make Pau work all year and get better, whereas with the Bulls he would’ve probably tried to jack up 3s all night.
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
by Ugh It Live! on Jun 15, 2009 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ha, I don't think he'd be shooting 3s
I think if he came on the team when Skiles was still a coach he would have shown the defensive effort. Under Vinny, yeah he’d probably be playing small forward.
That Steve Nash is exactly the same as Kirk Hinrich, but worse.
by NBA Observer on Apr 8, 2009 12:23 PM CDT
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 15, 2009 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't believe that for a second.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 15, 2009 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pau received the max
of what he could. Kobe’s is higher due to service time (or something like that).
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 15, 2009 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah I get that
I’m saying that his max being lower in service years is perfectly acceptable for his production….he would be great for our team, now, and especially when he could have come here…then. And that money ain’t far off what Deng’ll be making in a few years.
Though I digress, I bet we trade Deng this second on a low for an expiring and another team tells me what I’m saying about PAU, still i don’t foresee any time where Deng is better than Gasol….
Tyger1147 is a douche bag
by majoyenrac on Jun 15, 2009 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Elton Brand for Tyson Chandler
(One of) the dumbest trades in sports history.
Things could be worse. We could have kept Boylan.
by stupidgenius on Jun 15, 2009 5:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have a feeling...
That if the Bulls were in the finals last season, that our owner would be willing to go into the luxury tax to bring back the pieces that were one step away from winning a championship.
However, this Bulls team barely made the playoffs this season after missing the playoffs last season, they do not have a transcendent talent on the level of Kobe Bryant, and have not made the moves to put themselves in the position of contending for a title anytime soon…
I am all for the team spending money irresponsibly, but as we have seen, more time than not in Dallas, New York and even Cleveland, that type of spending does not equate to titles…this team needs to be financially responsible so that it can build a contender around Derrick Rose, who could become that transcendent talent they have lacked.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Jun 15, 2009 11:37 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Bullshit
Weren’t the Lakers getting their asses kicked in the 1st round a few years ago? It was their willingness to trade for Pau Gasol and go into the luxury tax that made them championship contenders.
Why resort to name calling?
-Dionysus2.0
because I wish to insult you personally
-your friendly BullsBlogger
by Big D on Jun 15, 2009 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Agreed.
That getting Gasol for Kwame Brown was the move that put them over the top…they had the best record in the West when they made that deal, and were already paying the tax.
I understand the plan for a lot of folks around here is to wait for the next big name free agent to be traded and hope the Bulls can get him for expiring deals…that is cool, but there is no need to wreck future cap flexibility while hanging on to that sliver of hope that a mega-star will be traded here…
What I don’t understand is why the team would pay the tax to be .500, stuck in basketball purgatory, good enough to make the playoffs, not good enough to win it all…
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Jun 15, 2009 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I get why a
small market team wouldn’t do that, but this is Chicago. Invest some money back into the team. And not necessarily the crazy way some baseball teams go about it or New York, but at least stop acting poor and helpless. We all know that isn’t true.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
by cranscape on Jun 15, 2009 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"but there is no need to wreck future cap flexibility while hanging on to that sliver of hope that a mega-star will be traded here…"
is it better to wreck the team while hanging onto that sliver that a mega-star signs here?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 15, 2009 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know that was rhetorical, but no, it's not
If anything, Gasol to the Lakers is more evidence of that.
Gasol was traded to the Lakers (for a song) because they were an expensively maintained good but not great team.
There’s no reasonable circumstance where the Lakers could have signed Gasol and had a reasonable chance at fielding an immediate contender.
by Sports2 on Jun 15, 2009 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don't consider the team wrecked.
For not having payed the luxury tax…Hindsight being 20/20, Paxson did a poor job of managing cap space when he had, signed a bad player to a bad contract (Wallace) and appears to have overpaid a marginal player (Deng) when he signed him to an extension.
I do think it is a wise move to position the team to have cap space in the magical summer of 2010, when the best free agent class of all time could potentially hit the market.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Jun 15, 2009 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
it'll take some selling of productive players to get under the cap
not talking about merely staying at the tax level. I have to stop reading your posts.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 15, 2009 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not really.
If they keep only the players they currently have under contract, John Salmons doesn’t opt out and they keep both picks this year, their salary for that Summer will be $37.2M. which would be well below the a projected cap of $58M. If Salmons opts out (likely if he has a good season), that would knock another $5.8M off the Bulls salary commitments…giving them enough cap space to offer a max deal with the likes of Rose, Noah, Deng and Hinrich as a supporting cast….
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Jun 15, 2009 9:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, they were already paying the luxury tax for a team that lost in the first round the season before . . .
And as a result, they had the best record in the West when they made the Gasol trade. Imagine if Jerry Buss had said “Oh, I’m not going to pay the luxury tax for a 42 win team,” and gave away players like Odom? The team would have struggled, and they would have been forced to trade Kobe, because he wouldn’t have shut up. Hell, he never did rescind his trade demand, all that happened was that they started winning.
Why resort to name calling?
-Dionysus2.0
because I wish to insult you personally
-your friendly BullsBlogger
by Big D on Jun 15, 2009 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Excellent point.
Buss could have easily said, “Screw paying the tax for a mediocre team! I’m trading away Lamar Odom for cap flexibility!”
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Jun 15, 2009 4:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And if we got Ben for $10M/year
I’m sure given his clutch scoring and shooting, that we could deal him in 2011 after the 2010 class….teams will like to have BG if we do not down the road, he’s a pretty good player after all….it’s just the ecomonic climate is also being pared against the potentially biggest free agent class of all time…..where the likely 7th-9th best player in that class is in Ben Gordon’s level….
Tyger1147 is a douche bag
by majoyenrac on Jun 15, 2009 1:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
They have $30 million coming off the books next year!!!
They aren’t wrecking the cap to sign Gordon. My lord.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Jun 15, 2009 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"this team needs to be financially responsible so that it can build a contender around Derrick Rose"
no they don’t. I’m sure they’d prefer it that way and I don’t begrudge them that goal as a general direction. But this offseason is a unique opportunity for them to get a lot better, and it may cost a single season of tax payment.
The Celtics last season payed the tax too. And I’d take Dallas and Cleveland over the past few seasons over what we’ve seen. Sheesh.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 15, 2009 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, it's been 4 rebuilding plans in 10 years with this franchise
Enough is enough. They’ve finally got someone to build around, now try to win already.
Why resort to name calling?
-Dionysus2.0
because I wish to insult you personally
-your friendly BullsBlogger
by Big D on Jun 15, 2009 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And Jerry
hasn’t really lost a lot of money over these 10 years either living off the MJ high even during the worst of seasons. Other teams go through really tough spells talent-wise and financially, but if Jerry credits himself for his financial success he is missing the fact that MJ did most of the work. The Bulls will have to start winning again. Most of the people younger than me missed out on MJ and only know THIS Bulls team. And most of them hardly follow the team.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
by cranscape on Jun 15, 2009 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Bulls have been winning.
Three out of the past four seasons in the playoffs…the team is middle of the pack, just making the playoffs, not really contending for anything…as an owner, why pay a premium to not take the next step?
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Jun 15, 2009 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You talk like it is impossible to make the next step
by paying a bit more. Is it impossible? Really?
We are in an awkward stage right now where our former young players (Kirk/Deng/Gordon) have shaken things finally by actually getting contracts (or wanting them) and getting paid (or trying to get paid — Gordon) making money suddenly feel tight. We were young for so long I can see why that is a shock. Blazers will go through the same thing eventually. We can skate by a few years once gain by keeping the talent young on their rookie money (Rose/Noah/Tyrus) and sign a few lower paid vets but eventually you have to sign guys, make trades etc, and get better. And if you want to make trades you have to have some players signed to real contracts to match money in trades. If that means we are over for a season I don’t see why that is a problem because to get out of the growing pains and not regressing might require that. We can’t be a team on rookie contracts going on into infinity. Eventually we need to get in position to make our moves and will likely involve paying more money for year or two.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
by cranscape on Jun 15, 2009 2:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Paying for a real coach would be nice, too.
Why resort to name calling?
-Dionysus2.0
because I wish to insult you personally
-your friendly BullsBlogger
by Big D on Jun 15, 2009 2:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just because cookies at Aldi taste good
doesn’t mean you have to buy your coach there.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
by cranscape on Jun 15, 2009 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
An Aldi Reference?!
wow….
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
by piccolomair on Jun 15, 2009 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because you have a player that you plan on being better than any other piece you've had?
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Jun 15, 2009 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"But this offseason is a unique opportunity for them to get a lot better"
Can you elaborate on that please? What is the unique opportunity this offseason?
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Jun 15, 2009 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
they own the rights to a lot of good players
they have expiring contracts and two first rounders to combine with those good players and get someone better. If they let Gordon go, or trade Hinrich, or wait for Salmons to opt out, those assets start to dwindle.
And this offseason could be a big sell-off around the league. Rose is still on the rookie scale. There’s more.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 15, 2009 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Those are good points.
And I would love to see the Bulls leverage some of these assets into an elite player. I would be all about the Bulls going into the tax if it meant we could land one of Bosh, Lebron or even Wade. I would think long and hard about putting Amare or Joe Johnson into that category…
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Jun 15, 2009 9:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We need to find the next Kobe.
I want a tall shooting guard who can dominate the League and make cities cry of what could have been while we flip taxi’s and make love our internet girl friends and then punch holes in our Mom’s basement walls.
I will never forget when Bernstein talked about his people saying the Kobe trade was pretty much a done deal. That was the most disappointing Bulls season I’ve ever seen.
I went from months of excitement to all out depression in a few hours as the Bulls lost badly to the Nets that night and the Kobe deal was done ‘’for now.’’
People around the league seem to never bring it up and now Kobe has gone from a cry baby to tugging on MJ’s cape.
Crazy.
by SoulEater7 on Jun 15, 2009 11:50 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Kobe never ceases to surprise me with his crap anymore
His reaction when the game ended last night.
Can it be any more annoying?
by Option27 on Jun 15, 2009 12:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jun 15, 2009 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh I know when I saw that
I just laughed. Dude is obsessed with MJ.
by SoulEater7 on Jun 15, 2009 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Expressions
Does anyone else think Kobe practiced those tough facial expressions in the mirror before using them on the court?
by El Toro de Goro on Jun 15, 2009 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bill Simmons certainly does.
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on Jun 15, 2009 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If he practiced that
he should have gotten a second opinion on it. The rodent teeth look is scary, but not in the way he likely was going for. Not something you want on a poster or a card for example.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
by cranscape on Jun 15, 2009 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then you would have to draft DeRozan or Holiday who might be the most unknown quantities in this draft
Could be major stars, could be busts.
by Norsktroll on Jun 15, 2009 4:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Money doesn't matter for coaching
Aw damn. It does for us as our club threw away legends like they were free sticks of chewing gum with a packet of baseball cards.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jun 15, 2009 2:19 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Lets think happy thoughts:
The ‘new look’ Cavs featuring Shaq will fall in the Eastern Conference finals to the Celtics. Lebron, frustrated to no end, will sign with the Bulls along with Bosh. HAPPY DAYS ARE HERE AGAIN!!!!
CHICAGO BULLS 2011 CHAMPS!!!! (I type all this as i chug a bottle of scotch.)
"You never got me down, Ray. Ya hear me? Never got me down."
-Jake Lamotta
by The Red Menace on Jun 15, 2009 3:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd love to see a Shaq / Lebron team fall in the playoffs
I’m sure the league would pimp them hard as the ultimate team of the ages. The two guys would cost more than the current Bulls roster combined. Maybe Lebron’s last chance in Cleveland to win a championship as well as Shaq’s last season ever.
Not sure I’d like to see either guy on the Bulls ever, though. I just like rooting against Lebron, and Shaq is fun and all, but kinda a big cancer at this point in his career (and the last several years).
"Remember, I'm Italian".
by BCs71 on Jun 15, 2009 4:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
don't see how
the salary list shows a correlation between spending and winning championships. maybe i need to squint harder.
1) $94.8 knicks
2) $92.8 mavs
3) $91.7 cavs
4) $80.7 celts
5) $80.6 blazers
6) $75.6 suns
7) $75.5 rockets
8) $75.3 lakers
9) $73.1 kings
10)$72.1 pisstons
11)$72.0 raps
12)$71.4 bucks
13)$70.3 wiz
14)$70.0 pacers
…20) $68.5 bulls
matt, i take exception to your titled premise. but you would’ve guessed that much, i guess.
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
by marionette on Jun 15, 2009 4:37 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
::add::
17)$69.3 spurs
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
by marionette on Jun 15, 2009 4:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm pretty sure he isn't demanding the Bulls spend almost $100 million
But, naturally, when it comes to this team it’s always one or the other. Gray area never exists.
That Steve Nash is exactly the same as Kirk Hinrich, but worse.
by NBA Observer on Apr 8, 2009 12:23 PM CDT
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 15, 2009 4:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Gray area never exists."
hurts the brain.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 15, 2009 5:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I heard the Gray area is large and slow moving.
"Whoever was responsible for pulling that offer [to Ben Gordon] off the table...bring him before me and I'll punch him right in the face " - Frederick Pfeiffer
by Granny Waiters on Jun 15, 2009 9:13 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
well played. :)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 15, 2009 11:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
correlation in championships to spending?
How many championships were won this year? How many of those championship teams paid the luxury tax?
r2 = 1.000 or something.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Jun 15, 2009 4:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess that counts as 'squinting harder' ?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 15, 2009 5:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pretty much
LA is paying the tax.
In the WC finals they beat Denver, who’s paying the tax
Orlando will be paying the tax and was a nut hair’s distance from paying it this year. In the EC finals they beat Cleveland, who’s paying the tax. And before that, they beat Boston (without KG), last year’s champ, who paid the tax both years. And who beat the Lakers, who were paying the tax.
Spending is a close to a necessary but not sufficient condition for a title team.
by Sports2 on Jun 15, 2009 6:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
6 of the top 8 teams made the playoffs
And one of the 2 that didn’t finished above .500 (and was a championship contender not too long ago). And the 8th team is the Knicks. The top 8 includes the three teams that won the most games during the regular season, and the team that ultimately won the title. Looks like a decent correlation to me. The principle is that you shouldn’t hire Isiah Thomas or Steve Kerr as your GM, not that you shouldn’t spend money.
Why resort to name calling?
-Dionysus2.0
because I wish to insult you personally
-your friendly BullsBlogger
by Big D on Jun 15, 2009 5:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
nuance is fun. you generally need to pay the tax to win a championship. you don't need to spend the absolute most to win a title.
is that a hard concept? really?
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on Jun 15, 2009 6:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
SQUINT HARDER!
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 15, 2009 7:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How come the cavs are so high?
Lebron only makes about 14 million, and the rest of the roster is crap. And I don’t get the blazers either. They have so many of their core players on rookie contracts still, the cap should be 80 million.
Things could be worse. We could have kept Boylan.
by stupidgenius on Jun 15, 2009 9:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
40 million for Ben Wallace, Wally Sczerbiack, and Zydrunas Ilgauskus this season
Useless slug like Pavlovic made 4.5 million, Mo Williams made 8.3 million (though that’s a fair contract).
That Steve Nash is exactly the same as Kirk Hinrich, but worse.
by NBA Observer on Apr 8, 2009 12:23 PM CDT
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 15, 2009 10:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's a fair contract...
Mo;
He starts, he scores, takes questionable shots, plays marginal defense, disappears in big moments….
But BG;
Who should start, who scores more, also takes questionable shots, and also plays marginal defense, but not afraid of the big moment
….doesn’t deserve more than that?
(This is not directed at you specifically, just using your fact for comparison. For some reason I was under the impression Mo was signed for the MLE.)
by kingj41 on Jun 16, 2009 8:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mo Williams signed a deal similar to Hinrich's if you're looking for a comparison
That Steve Nash is exactly the same as Kirk Hinrich, but worse.
by NBA Observer on Apr 8, 2009 12:23 PM CDT
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 16, 2009 9:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Williams also plays PG with a 2:1 assist/to ratio...
It’s sort of apples and oranges. As was said below, Hinrich is a better comparison.
by SouthernCub on Jun 16, 2009 10:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Blazers are high
Mostly because Steve Francis $15M, Raef Lafrentz $12M and Darius Miles $9M are on their cap….I’m not sure though if they’ve been paid (think they have and know LaFrentz was on the insurance for much of his salary—whcih is why it was puzzling they didn’t make a move….
But those salaries are on their cap…
THE BULLS ARE GOING TO WIN IN 2010....maybe by stating this the positive vibes can make it happen.
by majoyenrac on Jun 16, 2009 8:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
hmmm
i didn’t expect such responses from this comment, and frankly, whatever the reasons for the general tone of the initial responders is, it kinda escapes me. personally, i don’t have to squint hard at all to see gray areas, in life and with the nba and the bulls. (maybe that’s why i’m flummoxed?) the closer i look at these team salaries, the more nuance arises. in fact, that was my point: my contention is that, though obviously not completely unrelated (this isn’t mlb, team #30 won’t be winning rings), salary management and nba championships are separate issues. talent rules and it must be paid, but all these teams have made mistakes to various degrees. to me, the history shows it’s more likely for a gm to misstep than not. even the ones with good reps.
in yfBB’s post, the sentence
But they’ve managed to convince their fanbase that we can’t have it all, and shouldn’t even bother asking for it.seems at the heart of his sentiment. i disagree, but maybe i’m too far away from chicago, or maybe i give the fanbase too much credit. simple as that.
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
by marionette on Jun 16, 2009 5:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
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