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Bulls 2008-2009 Off/Def APM

Player Minutes APM DiffOD OAPM DAPM
Hinrich, Kirk 1338.48 7.63 -2.47 2.58 5.05
Noah, Joakim 1911.23 4.59 -3.34 0.63 3.96
Thomas, Tim 1230.20 3.69 -5.13 -0.72 4.41
Gordon, Ben 2974.18 2.11 4.85 3.48 -1.37
Miller, Brad 2100.28 1.08 -0.24 0.42 0.66
Deng, Luol 1627.15 0.93 -5.25 -2.16 3.09
Rose, Derrick 2977.20 -0.52 5.99 2.73 -3.26
Gray, Aaron 692.70 -2.05 -7.35 -4.70 2.65
Thomas, Tyrus 2174.83 -7.21 -5.58 -6.40 -0.82
Salmons, John 2959.07 -7.70 4.05 -1.83 -5.88

Prepare for a run of qualifiers, these are uncharted waters for me...

I followed the instructions on Count The Basket and got it to work (I think)!!!  Assuming I got it right (the splits look correct relative to 82games on/off stats... I got my 07-08 APM numbers to match then used the same method for 08-09, so no reason they shouldn't be right, they're just hard to verify), these are the offensive and defensive APM numbers for the Bulls this year.  The overall APMs are slightly different than the ones from basketballvalue since they use a slightly different (and unpublished) method of calculating margin.

Star-divide

That's the good news.  The bad news is 1-year APM numbers mean basically nothing :(  The standard errors for some players are 5-6.  But as far as I know, these are the only 2008-2009 Off/Def APM numbers available on the web right now, and I'll use this post as a precursor to a multi-year, low-noise APM I'll publish once I get my hands on a powerful-enough computer that'll run it without freezing.

While noise makes the overall APM useless, the difference between Offensive and Defensive APM is somewhat reliable.  We knew Gordon and Rose were much better offensively than defensively, and vice versa for Noah and Tyrus, but I was surprised to see how much worse Salmons was on the defensive side, and how much better Luol was on the defensive side (an argument for his being effective at SG?).  Luol's built a reputation on being a better offensive than defensive player, but (assuming noise wasn't the cause) that switched this season.

Just for kicks, the top players offensively:

 

Player Minutes APM DiffOD OAPM DAPM
Wade, Dwayne 3048.32 20.07 10.83 15.45 4.62
Redd, Michael 1202.73 5.16 16.50 10.83 -5.67
Nash, Steve 2484.08 9.64 11.88 10.76 -1.12
James, LeBron 3054.18 16.38 4.95 10.67 5.71
Paul, Chris 2888.32 14.22 6.57 10.39 3.83
Telfair, Sebastian 2094.47 7.99 9.18 8.59 -0.59
Foye, Randy 2494.38 5.91 10.80 8.35 -2.45
Bryant, Kobe 2824.03 7.47 8.31 7.89 -0.42
Wafer, Von 1201.22 5.64 9.37 7.50 -1.86
Granger, Danny 2424.32 6.94 7.55 7.25 -0.31

and defensively:

Bogut, Andrew 1135.75 5.67 -16.81 -5.57 11.24
Kidd, Jason 2814.47 11.85 -7.01 2.42 9.43
Przybilla, Joel 1935.42 3.38 -14.80 -5.71 9.09
Camby, Marcus 1924.58 3.88 -14.29 -5.20 9.09
Odom, Lamar 2203.02 15.09 -1.90 6.59 8.49
Hayes, Jarvis 1831.68 6.09 -9.84 -1.87 7.97
Garnett, Kevin 1641.80 6.21 -9.61 -1.70 7.91
Iguodala, Andre 3269.05 12.07 -3.15 4.46 7.61
Ming, Yao 2454.02 7.69 -7.53 0.08 7.61
Martin, Kenyon 2083.77 5.43 -9.11 -1.84 7.27

 

(Note: DiffOD is the estimated difference between offensive and defensive effectiveness.  A high DiffOD means you're good offensively and bad defensively.)

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so basically

this means nothing

by benster on Jun 12, 2009 11:16 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Cool, thanks for all the work

I’ll look forward to the multi-year stuff.

Man-slave, bring me my PB&J!

by wjb1492 on Jun 12, 2009 11:32 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

That's what tipped you off?

It wasn’t Andrew Bogut as the best defensive player? Or Randy Foye? I mean at least Telfair played for good teams, so it’s understandable that his stats ended up looking good, but Bogut and Foye played for bad teams, and they still end up looking good.

by tuluse on Jun 13, 2009 5:15 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

For what it worth...

Foye and Telfair are on the same team…

by shine218 on Jun 13, 2009 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oops

I got telfair confused with another player

by tuluse on Jun 13, 2009 4:57 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You clearly have no idea how adjusted plus/minus works

so maybe you should learn before commenting on it.

Thanks Yao Pau for doing this work. I’ll look forward to your future work with this. I’m glad people are taking advantage of what Eli posted.

by Scotter on Jun 13, 2009 5:07 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

adjusted for teammates played with and opponents played against.

"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton

by fundamentallysound on Jun 14, 2009 9:34 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

is it adjusted only for teammates you actually play with

or does it also adjust for the quality of backup?

by TheMoon on Jun 15, 2009 9:24 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It does, but over a season it seems to consistently produce some results that make me question how well it does

Several of the outliers on that list seem to be obvious results of what could sort of be called backup effects.

If the backup sucks so bad as to cause the whole offensive or defensive system to break down, you’re going to see an across the board negative affect on the plus/minus of other players on the team.

Over the course of several seasons of data, of course, this can be mitigated, but the trick is that if you require several seasons of data, the other variables in evaluating and searching for good players (like age and contract status) often tend to become dominant.

by Sports2 on Jun 15, 2009 7:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

well, adjusting for the backup effects, I think, is one of the noisiest portions of the APM formulation

because chances are you only have one real backup if you’re a starter in the league that plays any kind of minutes and then who is that backup really being compared to in order to determine his quality? The starter, so it gets to be a little circular, I think.

So, yeah, I agree with you that the backup effects are not adjusted out of things nearly to the degree that you’d want if you were building a perfect statistic.

"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton

by fundamentallysound on Jun 15, 2009 8:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

A backup being bad really isn't what causes big problems with APM.

The big problems come from rotational issues that can lead to huge swings in the results such as.

1. A team essentially only plays two players at a position, and the two are never on the court together

2. A team essentially only plays three players at two positions.

3. A team plays their starters huge minutes together or a very short rotation

4. A player saw their biggest minutes during the part of the season when the team was playing their best or worst, but that player wasn’t really responsible for the quality of the team’s play.

And there are others. APM wants basketball chaos with every player interacting, which doesn’t usually make basketball sense. They’re enough issues with the Bulls that I don’t trust most of the results from this year or last year.

What allows APM to be useful in my mind is the player pairs data at 82games and access to statistical plus/minus. At least with that data I can get a decent idea of why a player’s APM is what it is. It’s not scientifically reducing the noise, but it’s better than just subjecting APM results to the laugh test and throwing out any result that I don’t like. APM isn’t the perfect instrument some want it to be, but it does produce some useful results amongst the noise.

by Scotter on Jun 16, 2009 1:56 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

But, none of what I listed has to do with the quality of the backup.

“Bad” backup aren’t a significant problem, the system adjusts for that pretty well. Bad starters are a bigger problem than bad backups. The APM problem with the Detroit starting lineup a few years ago was that all the starters were good. That Gortat is a good backup for Howard poses more problems than if he was a bad backup.

by Scotter on Jun 16, 2009 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

c'mon, this doesn't jive with Sports's theory that Nocioni being good caused Deng to be good

or Nocioni being bad caused Deng to be bad. Or something. I don’t know.

People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett

by tyger1147 on Jun 17, 2009 8:34 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The quality of the backup is irrelevent in this case

82games plusminus is weird because it subtracts on court from off court, which makes backup quality too important. For all the data 82games has, that’s really a mediocre way of doing it.

Adjusted compares a player’s plusminus to the entire league, which in a way means it compares it to nobody. It separates a player from his teammates, from his backups, from his opponents.

Imagine you want to figure out what makes a bike go fast. You try different seat heights, pedaling speeds, backwards/forwards pedaling, gears, and you jot down how fast you rode in each trial. Imagine you then put all that data into a spreadsheet, where speed is in one column, and then all the other variables are in other columns, with one row equaling one trial.

Using a regression, you can separate the impact of each variable. You’d see right away that seat height means basically nothing, pedaling backwards slows you considerably, but pedaling speed and gear can have the biggest positive effect.

APM does the same thing, but with basketball. The 10 players on the court (five per team) in any shift are your input variables, the change in the score for that shift is the output. Put every shift in the NBA into a spreadsheet and you’ve got about 12 million cells of data. Run the regression and it sorts out which players most positively and negatively affect the score.

If in an NBA season, every possible 5 on 5 was used, we’d be able to figure out how much each player’s effect is. But because players are typically trapped on a single 12 man roster, there’s trouble in separating how much positive/negative value to give to each player. That’s why you have the 5-6 noise levels in one year, and Telfair rising into the top 10.

Give it two to three years of data, and we can start figuring out who’s been the most effective. The supercomputer’s on its way.

by YaoPau on Jun 15, 2009 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

This is a pretty excellent summary / analogy of how adjusted plus-minus works. Everyone should be required

to understand this basic idea before commenting on APM.

"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton

by fundamentallysound on Jun 15, 2009 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Telfair's historically been very good in regards to APM.

He’s underrated! :D
Seriously, though, I like Telfair, even though he was way too hyped, is too short, and can’t shoot.
… yeah.

-I was wrong about Pau Gasol. I have been shamed. :(

by Prevenge on Jun 15, 2009 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That could just be noise

His 5-year weighted was -4.64. His basketballvalue 2-year is +2.23, albeit with a 2.99 error. So about a 22% chance his actual 2-year APM is negative. Given the really poor APMs of some of his teammates (Jefferson -4.87, Love -8.25, Smith -7), I think its a case of there not being enough data to cleanly separate Telfair from his teammates.

by YaoPau on Jun 15, 2009 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I was going to say that I would guess that it was noise, but it is a pretty jarring piece of data.

But looking at the complete picture (visual scouting, box-score based stats, EOPM), etc. it’s pretty clear that Telfair probably isn’t really a +8 offensive player. EOPM has him at a -.95, which is pretty terrible.

Speaking of EOPM, YaoPau, have you thought about doing a regression for each position with respect to the rate statistics that you used? For instance, it seems sort of silly to assume that a guy like Tyrus who has an OReb% of 7.8 is contributing more offensively in that area (offensive rebounding) than a PG who rebounded at the same rate (if such a player existed — there isn’t a PG in the game today that offensive rebounds that well). I guess what I’m suggesting is similar to a position adjustment.

It might make things a bit more difficult and lose some of the simplicity, but it also might make the results more accurate.

"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton

by fundamentallysound on Jun 15, 2009 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah I've tried it by position

The problem with that is lack of data. There were maybe 25 PGs with enough minutes to get a decent reading on the 5-year APMs, and a couple outliers can change the formula more than they should be able to.

Your OREB% point is an interesting one, and something I want to think more about. Conversely, would a 20 AST% for Brad Miller be more valuable than a 25 AST% for a point guard? I’m not sure. But I’m working on a statistical plusminus with A Friend Who Knows Perl, trying to figure out some way to statistically account for ballstopping. Fuck I hate Ben Gordon.

by YaoPau on Jun 15, 2009 3:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would think that a 20 AST% for Brad would be a lot more important than a 25 AST% for

a PG, as Brad’s 20% at the Center position would put him towards the top of the league amongst centers and 25% at the PG position would be pretty weaksauce from your PG, where the top guys (like CP3) dish it out at like 40 or 50+%.

"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton

by fundamentallysound on Jun 15, 2009 6:37 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It also may be true that assists from big man

more often lead to a higher% shots (Dunks, layups, 3s) than that of perimeter players. I haven’t actually studied that, but that’s my impression from looking at data from 82games. The downside is that passing big guys also tend to have much higher TO rates than guards.

I’ve seen the argument made that the league went away from the passing centers that dominated 60s and especially the 70s partly because the league began tracking TOs in 77/78. Someone like Bill Walton was an amazing passer, but he was also a turnover machine.

by Scotter on Jun 16, 2009 2:11 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

A bit off topic...

but I noticed basketballvalue includes rebounding numbers for each shift as well – home offensive boards, home defensive boards, away offensive boards, away defensive boards.

The dependent Margin variable Eli used was (HomePoints/HomePossessions)-(AwayPoints/AwayPossessions).

I ran a regression for Adjusted Rebounding last night ,and my first thought it to use (HomeOffensiveBoards+HomeDefensiveBoards)/(HomePossessions)-(AwayOffensiveBoards+AwayDefensiveBoards)/(AwayPossessions. The results were oddly perfect, passing any laugh test, and the standard errors for some reason were all below 2, even with just one season of data.

But something tells me that if it were that simple Bazilai wouldn’t have included the off/def splits. Do you see any reason why offensive or defensive boards would be given extra weight?

by YaoPau on Jun 16, 2009 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

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