The Bulls are so taking Tyler Hansbrough. (the shocking part is that I'm now OK with it)
It's been a running joke for two years (so tyger doesn't get too happy about that shoutout, a year later he had this crappy prediction). The joke about the hard-worky-bleedy guy being a perfect fit for the Bulls. The Bulls, with their incessent blathering about character and John Paxson's lazy scouting method (i.e., watching CBS for a couple weeks in March). Hansbrough, with his lauded resume accentuated by attibutes such as tenacity, energy, perserverence, and other nice ways to say he's not very good but, hot damn, he tries.
And in the past week, we've had two stories linking the Bulls and Hansbrough. At first, it's cringe-inducing. But when stripping away the hype (which has pretty much died down anyway in regards to his one-time status as the best player in the nation) I see how Hansbrough can be a fit.
To me (and, after all: the only one lazier than John Paxson with the draft is me) this draft is about getting someone with a high floor, at the expense of a higher ceiling. Someone who can immediately be in outer rotation (spots 8-12), and can contribute in short stints. Someone who doesn't need to be coached to play hard, and ideally doesn't need to be coached at all. Yes, that's a dig at Vinny.
And it's not because the Bulls are so set that just need to fill in those spots. With two picks in the lower half of the first round, it's extremely rare that you 'draft potential' and get someone better than that anyway. And thus, this draft should be about preparing for the big trade to come. If the picks themselves can't be part of a mega-package for a frontcourt star, then draft the guys who'll help replace whoever on the roster needs to go in said mega-deal.
It's what Danny Ainge smartly did in consecutive second rounds of '06 and '07, getting guys like Leon Powe and Glen Davis. And when he had to gut his team to acquire KG, there were capable players to fill the remaining holes.
Obviously that's not what won them a title, KG did. But there is a difference in filling out a rotation with average role players instead of production sinkholes (think Mikki Moore this season for the Celtics, for instance).
And I still see that being where the Bulls go first this summer, consolidating and getting an established big man from a cost-cutting team. And if it doesn't happen this summer, it could happen at the trade deadline, or 2010. Or maybe Tyrus Thomas becomes that guy by then.
Either way, the team will then need guys like Hansbrough, not someone who needs development to someday be better. That is unlikely to be had at #16, and with the Bulls development track record, even less likely. So I'm ready for the Tyler Hansbrough era, even though a couple years ago I would've thought it to be a joke.
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Comments
Those back to back Tyger links were just too funny:)
As for the rest of the post, I coudn’t agree more. If Hansborough is there, as long as there’s nobody that has dropped and is obviously a better pick, I really have no problem with them taking him. To me, the thing that was funny about Hansborough was the Bulls predictability rather than the player himself.
"That's a spicy meatball-a!" - Vinny Del Negro
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 1, 2009 7:47 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The next Darius Songaila
Ultimate upside: David Lee. And I don’t meant that in a bashing kind of way. Songaila is a capable rotation player for the Wizards, occasionally getting double doubles when he sees a little more playing time. He just isn’t a star.
by Norsktroll on Jun 1, 2009 8:11 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I think that Draft Express actually has it right with Hansbrough - his absolute ceiling is Luis Scola. It makes a lot of sense, actually.
Both dominated on their previous levels of competition. Both are ground bound, but have adequate size. Both are “hustle” players. Both have a wide array of post moves and crafty scoop shots and hooks and very solid jumpers. They have loads of similarities in their games. If Hansbrough is Scola in different clothes (i.e. no greasy long hair) then I’d be thrilled. If he’s Songaila? I’m not terribly distraught, Songaila is a pretty solid role player. I think TH is ultimately a slightly better defender than Songaila, though, if only for his extreme peskiness.
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on Jun 1, 2009 8:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Scola had been tested against international competition
including three successful test against Team USA in Athens 2004, FIBA Japan 2006, and Beijing 2008. I even think Scola did very well against the Team USA club in Las Vegas 2007 and that was the reformulated Dream Team that had Kobe.
I don’t think Hansborough has any of this testing.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jun 2, 2009 2:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not about to say
Psycho T is as good as Scola….but he’s been pretty well tested for the level of play he’s been at, seeing that he’s been a collegiate superstar in probably the toughest programs in the country in probably the toughest conference in the country….
I’d love it if he was a Scola type, but if the draft was happening today, getting a Scola type at 16 or 26 would be a damn steal…..and I think Hansborough at 16 or preferrably 26 is a nice to have.
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
by majoyenrac on Jun 2, 2009 2:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's why it's called a ceiling...
He’s not expected to be as good as Scola. That’s just the type of player he might be, and if everything played out perfectly maybe he could be that good.
by SouthernCub on Jun 3, 2009 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hansborough can replace Hinrich in last name spelling errors thought the Blogosphere.
Maybe even Vinny calling him Tyson Hansborough. Anyways we could use his fouls against Howard for next season. Im pretty sure he’d do better than the bald guy on Cleveland.
by SoulEater7 on Jun 1, 2009 8:12 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Are you starting the race w/ two in one post?
I’m hoping that was ironic?
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Jun 1, 2009 9:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it was some extreme irony.
I think. And hope.
"Vinny continues to act like a crazed arsonist pouring gasoline on our season while running around carrying a torch yelling 'I’m in charge. Don’t any of you foolish knaves try to second guess me. I know gasoline is a liquid but I’m pretty sure it isn’t flammable and the odor gives me a natural high.'" - Tyrusmancrush
by Illini15 on Jun 1, 2009 9:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow!
wowwow! Nice! I wish i would have planed that to look smart.
by SoulEater7 on Jun 2, 2009 12:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If they do in fact take Hansbrough
It would put two of my most hated college basketball players ever (him and Noah) on the Bulls. Strangely enough, I have grown to like Noah.
Living here in the Raleigh area and having to suffer through the Hansbrough lovefest for the last four years, it will take much more for me to like Psycho-T. Unfortunately, if this were to happen, the Bulls would leave me but little choice to at least hope he does well, which more than I can say for the John Starks era.
I thought Noah was hard to even look at, but Hansbrough is worse with his bug eyes on the side of his head and his mouth breathing that makes him look like he just saw a naked woman for the first time.
Just thinking about this is starting to piss me off. Not to say he wouldn’t have some value – but man do I hate him.
by illini on Jun 1, 2009 8:20 PM CDT reply actions 2 recs
+1
I live in Durham, you speak only truth.
by Aisander D on Jun 2, 2009 7:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, that’s my problem with the college game
there are no ‘tests’, every team is awful.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 31, 2008 2:26 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions 0 recs
not true
by sue369 on Mar 31, 2008 3:59 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions 0 recs
pnwd
by NittanyCub on Jun 1, 2009 8:39 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
haha
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 1, 2009 11:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would be okay with the pick at #26.
The expectations are at least on par with what the production could be…unlike the Shelden Williams debate or more recently the DeAndre Jordan discussions…
At #26, I agree with yfbb, he could fill an outer rotation spot…and may even be the right pick for this team.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Jun 1, 2009 8:56 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Supposedly, they're looking at him at #16.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Jun 1, 2009 9:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gross
And thanks for the heads up…I think that is a reach for a player of his potential…at 16, I feel the Bulls should still be drafting guys that could be a starter in the NBA, not a potential 10 minute per night journeyman…
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Jun 1, 2009 9:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm cool with #16
(if that wasn’t clear in the post…I suppose it wasn’t)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 1, 2009 11:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ugh, the guaranteed money and all?
2nd round money makes me love Hansborough, but 1st round guarantees make me cringe.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jun 2, 2009 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's only two years guaranteed
and somebody has to take the roster spot
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 2, 2009 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right...
Mid/late first round picks are rarely slam dunks. And hey’re going to be paying SOMEBODY for two years guaranteed. They all have blemishes. Might as well be a polished offensive big man like Hansbrough.
He’d be nothing more than a rotation player used to provide a bit of energy and post offense off the bench.
My big concern with Hansbrough is that he’s a pretty mediocre rebounder. But we’d have pretty good rebounders around him, so maybe that’s less of a concern.
by SouthernCub on Jun 3, 2009 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
I love how everyone’s like, we can just add Aaron Gray and pay him $1M or whatever because we’ve already seen he’s complete crap….but if we have to pay $1.2M for a guy who might actually be something, that’s too expensive…
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
by majoyenrac on Jun 3, 2009 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Hilarious.
And spot on.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Jun 3, 2009 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Truce Tyger?
I’d like to call out a truce as I don’t get the hate from you to me…and I’m tired of that fight anyway.
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
by majoyenrac on Jun 3, 2009 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know I would be fine with him at #16
Of course I’d rather at #26, but really how many post lottery or late lottery picks pan out? I think at worst Hansborough is going to be a 7-8 year rotation player at best a nice role playing starter….
And that’s not a bad guy to pick when it’s likely 5-6 people picked before him will be busts and out of the league 4 years on.
I mean if Blair is available still, I’ll be pissed….but if he ain’t Psycho T could be a nice pick that late in the draft. Blair I think might just be the steal of the draft, though in nbadraft.net he’s falling into the 20’s now…..
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
by majoyenrac on Jun 2, 2009 7:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love Hansbrough at #26.
But at 16 I’m not sure. But who else is gonna be there who will instantly raise the level of intensity in practice and that my rub off on some guys…or force guys to play hard more often.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Jun 1, 2009 9:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's the thing to me.
Who would you rather take at 16 if Blair, Henderson and Williams are gone? There are certainly some with more potential (Daye, if he’s there… who else?). The Bulls have enough guys with potential right now (Rose, Thomas and Noah), I want a guy who is going almost be a certain thing.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Jun 1, 2009 10:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is how I feel about it as well. This draft is just not strong enough to expect to get a starting quality player, even at # 16
so take the guy with the best chance of being a 7th or 8th man or first big off the bench and don’t look back.
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on Jun 1, 2009 10:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know if Budinger
Is still on the board, maybe him…..as a nice backup SG (bye bye Kirk)….
But I agree and would be happy with Hansborough in that circumstance.
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
by majoyenrac on Jun 2, 2009 8:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I was wrong about Love. Don't know what I was thinking.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Jun 1, 2009 9:15 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
wasn't seeking you out, Tyger
I was actually looking for dumb things I said…just a happy coincidence there :)
(please, don’t go through my old comments for awful predictions)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 1, 2009 11:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm confident in my drafting preditions.
Before I came upon B-a-B, the day before the 2006 draft, I was slamming Tyrus Thomas’s ESPN chat w/ the same question, something along the lines of: Do you know much about your new Bulls teammate Thabo Sefolosha, and what will it be like for the two of you to be drafted to such a good team?
I assume everyone knew they’d pick Rose. I had no clue on Noah or Wright or Hawes. If they take Hansbrough… well, I’ll be happy (I guess???) to have predicted 4 out of the past 6 draft picks (assuming I don’t ‘pick’ #26). Not that anyone cares or anyone’s counting.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Jun 2, 2009 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've given some thought to the impending Tyler Hansbrough era, and I'll welcome it - even at the 16th pick
(with the caveat that if Blair is there, you obviously take him, and run away laughing maniacally). There are so many guards and tweeners in this draft that are pretty hard to differentiate between, so I think there will be at least one of those guys available later in the draft. A Hansbrough / Sam Young draft would be a solid low-ceiling, high-floor draft. I’d also be happy with Hansbrough / Budinger (Budinger might not be the player people hoped he’d be, but I still think he is versatile enough and good enough all around that he can be a very solid contributor).
Things to like about Hansbrough as a rotational big, off the bench:
1. He can hit the jump shot. (DX using Synergy’s data lists his jump shooting % at 42% which is fairly respectable – if he continued hitting jumpers at that rate he’d be in the LMA, David West range of PF jump shooters).
2. He’s annoying. This is a good thing for success on defense. Nocioni was able to use this to his advantage before his legs and feet betrayed him and that same pesky, annoyingness began hurting the team (because he ran away from his man to chase the ball). Battier annoys the crap out of opposing offensive players. Noah does this well, too. Rodman was a master at this. I know it sounds stupid, and it’s not an argument that I’ve completely thought out, but it seems to me like the players who have a great deal of success on the defensive end are pretty good at irritating their man on defense and taking them out of their comfort zone. Now, this might be self-selection bias because if a guy is shutting you down, chances are you’re going to find him annoying, so it’s a bit of a chicken and egg thing. Hansbrough is limited athletically, but he seems to be committed to trying on defense which is half the battle.
3. He can score around the rim, even with a double team. Note this DX quote: “For one, he ranked third amongst all PFs in points per possession in terms of finishing around the basket, at 1.39. His field goal percentage was fairly average here—64%, just slightly under the mean—but the fact that he draws fouls on an outstanding 20% of his possessions (easily ranking him first) made him substantially more efficient in that regard.”
4. He’ll draw fouls and help get teams into the penalty. He drew 7.8 fouls per pace adjusted 40 (per www.kenpom.com), which put him 4th in the country in fouls drawn. This is a hugely underrated part of the game, especially for bench players. If you can continue to get teams to rack up fouls while your starters are on the bench so that you get into the penalty early in quarters it can be a huge boon for your team.
Basically, there’s a lot to like out of Hansbrough, especially since he’s not really undersized. A couple of things that still give me pause are (1) his relatively low rebounding rates for a big man and (2) if his vertical, shuttle, etc. are below average it might be an indicator that he’s not an NBA athlete, despite his adequate size and very good pro production. Buttressing my viewpoint here is that he doesn’t get a lot of steals or blocks to go with his merely adequate rebounding numbers. Steals, blocks, and rebounds are the best statistical indicators of athleticism, so I still have questions about Hansbrough’s athletic ability, but I’m willing to be proven wrong if he shows out well on the combine drills and measurements re: jumping and agility.
All in all, though, given his proficiency for scoring around the basket and with his back to the basket, his bevy of post moves – even against double teams, his effort on defense, and his ability to hit jump shots combined with the new knowledge of his adequate size makes me think that he’s probably worth picking at #16, and definitely worth it at #26.
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on Jun 1, 2009 9:33 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
It bears repeating...
College stats don’t really translate to the success in the pro game…I mean I understand that he was a very talented college player, but so were Shelden Williams, Adam Morrison and (to pull out an oldie) Christian Laettner.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Jun 1, 2009 9:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's not true. Some stats translate better than others, but
they do tell you something about how effective a guy will be in the NBA. There’s a difference between people use stats intelligenylu and the examples you threw out.
by Scotter on Jun 1, 2009 9:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Admittedly not a stat head...
But it seems that rebounding is the one stat that consistently translates from college to the NBA…
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Jun 1, 2009 9:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It does.
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on Jun 1, 2009 9:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Does it?
Is Beasley an aberration or just a guy without enough minutes to judge yet?
I think it depends on what kind of rebounds a player accumulated at the college level. Beasley’s throw it at the backboard and go put it back in hasn’t and won’t translate to the NBA.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jun 2, 2009 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not to mention
He doesn’t shoot anywhere near the paint now that he’s in the NBA
by torch on Jun 2, 2009 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's where the intelligent use of stats comes in.
As stats orientated as I am, I still questioned the level to which Beasley would rebound in the NBA. Stats are there to red flag guys, or to make you take a 2nd look at guys.
And in the end he wasn’t a terrible rebounder. He still had a 20% DReb rate, it’s his offensive rebound rate that took the giant hit. And that was predictable considering the likely scenario where he became primarily a jump shooter in the NBA. Beasley isn’t really an exception.
by Scotter on Jun 2, 2009 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It traditionally does, of course, there are exceptions. You're just being silly with bringing up an aberrational example.
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on Jun 2, 2009 7:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Some college stats do, some don't. The ones he's excelled at have been traditionally a mixed bag, and the things he's
been less than stellar at are the things that usually translate. So I’m cautious about projecting him based on his stats, but stats combined with scouting can tell you an awful lot about a player.
For instance, Hansbrough is a great scorer, but how does he score? Adam Morrison scored in college primarily by shooting over the top of smaller defenders in the crappy WAC. In the NBA, he couldn’t get that shot off anymore against bigger, faster defenders. Hansbrough has been scoring loads of points on crazy high efficiency against double teams for most of his time in college. That matters. I’m not throwing the numbers out there without context. I have good reasons for suspecting Hansbrough’s offensive game will translate fairly well to the pros, but there are some caveats and things that stand in his way (see: my concerns about his athleticism at the next level).
It’s all about nuance. You can’t just say “oh stats don’t translate” and junk them all together. You have to use them smartly, which is what I’ve tried to do.
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on Jun 1, 2009 9:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
from what I've seen
at the very least he has touch around the basket. He plays below-the-rim, so he pretty much has to when getting all those points.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 1, 2009 11:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Hansbrough has been scoring loads of points on crazy high efficiency..."
This line is what scares me about projecting college players into the pros. I never thought I’d ever speak “combine” but TH has a low shot release. Given his avg height and wingspan for a PF, I think this will hurt him on the offensive end at the Pro level.
TH’s game reminds me more of Udonis Haslem (specifically when he was at Florida). I don’t think his footwork or lateral quickness is as good as David Lee, so I didn’t like that comparison. On the other hand, his offensive stats during his sr year compare favorably to both of the florida grads and david west (who had a similar body type, but more polished game).
Nevertheless, I see TH getting his shot blocked frequently at the pro level. I also see him as limited offensively and needing to find/accept a niche a la Udonis.
"Some people want it to happen, some wish it would happen, others make it happen." - Michael Jordan
by PeteRoc on Jun 2, 2009 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's nothing wrong with that with this pick. You shouldn't expect miracles.
I’d take the Haslem of the past 4 years (I think that would be the 30-40% floor of Hansbrough) at $1 million as the 4th big-man on the team. Seems like a steal.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Jun 2, 2009 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree there's nothing wrong with Haslem of the past 4 years
Perhaps my interpretation was wrong, but I felt the comments from fundamentallysound were along the lines of expecting a miracle from TH (at least offensively).
As long as the expectations of what he brings is tempered, I can probably live with the pick. On the other hand, I’ve always been of the belief that you can find a quality starter (or starter-caliber) outside of the lottery slots and the history of the draft is littered with them. We already have TT and enough people have advocated for Bosh, so I don’t view TH as an attempt to draft a starter.
While I’m not yet up to speed on the S/W of this year’s draft pool, I won’t lose any sleep if we decide to go in a different direction at #16.
"Some people want it to happen, some wish it would happen, others make it happen." - Michael Jordan
by PeteRoc on Jun 2, 2009 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, according to Jamaicanpi...
(and I don’t know where he got that info, but it seems to go along with what I’ve read), there is a 30% chance that player is above-average. That sounds about right. That probably means there is about a 50-60% he’s average. And, at least as for the commenters I typically agree with (fundamentallysound, Scotter, yfBB), we would only be drafting him to play 10-15 mpg. If they can get an “average” NBA player for the back-up 10-15 mpg, that’s pretty good, especially if you have someone like Bosh ahead of him. If taking someone like Hansbrough helps ensure you get that instead of someone like Mullens or Daye, I’ll take it.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Jun 2, 2009 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I tried to be vague
Because it’s hard to even define average or sucky, etc. I definitely extrapolated and provided my own interpretation, but it is based on these DX and 82 games articles.
Those numbers are rough, but I thought it was important to put some expectations out there. For pick 16 both draft sites talk about solid players (which I said was about above average, vague) being drafted around 30-40%. I figured in a weak draft it’s probably closer to 30%.
It’s certainly more for context. I get tired of reading posts where people think that every draft pick is incredibly valuable when that’s the furthest thing from the truth. We’re not guaranteed a star at 16 or a starter at 26 and that’s what’s important.
by Jamaicanpi on Jun 2, 2009 4:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
absolutely
thanks for the clarification on where you got those, too.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Jun 2, 2009 5:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Laettner
Was a 1 or 2 time all star….at least and had a 12 year or so playing career (yes Tyger I am guessing with the exacts, but the point is there). If we get someone like that, this late in the draft that’s great.
Shelden Williams was a shocking pick at #5 a few years ago, and proved all them naysayers right….
Morrison was a real disappointment….
I hope if undrafted since we have no 2nd round pick, we invite Jerel McNeal to try to make the team…
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
by majoyenrac on Jun 2, 2009 8:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Laettner made one all star game.
In 96 with Atlanta when he had a career year of 18 and 8…
I am happy that people are talking about Hansborough outside of the lottery, but I don’t think he will be a very good pro player…certainly not worthy of going at 16, where you should get someone who can play everyday…
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Jun 2, 2009 8:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
In a good draft
Yes, with a weaker draft, a rotation player (7th or 8th man) might not be bad….especially if he fills in a need for us for the $$ he’ll make…
Of course I’d love us to make a run for the Birdman for more $$…
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
by majoyenrac on Jun 2, 2009 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Birdman is 31 and relies on his legs and athleticism. That's not a good route to go.
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on Jun 2, 2009 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We're not paying him the sun and the moon and the stars
A 2-3 year deal for $3M a year seems great, $4M would be nice too, he’s just turning 31 and had really 3 years of rest to keep his legs….
If we pay him $5-6M, then hell no.
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
by majoyenrac on Jun 2, 2009 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Nuggets can afford him at that price
He’s going to leave because someone will go in that 5-6 million dollar range.
That Steve Nash is exactly the same as Kirk Hinrich, but worse.
by NBA Observer on Apr 8, 2009 12:23 PM CDT
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 2, 2009 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he duplicates what we already have too much
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 2, 2009 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree to a point
But we have no depth behind Tyrus and Noah and Miller and the Birdman’s D is actually better than current Tyrus….
I think having him will help us not have the 30 minutes straight of soon to be 33 yr old Miller…
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
by majoyenrac on Jun 2, 2009 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
no reason Miller had to play 30 minutes straight in the first place.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 2, 2009 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know THAT
But having a smart, athletic, good defensive big who can come in will definitely help that.
I think Tyrus if he stays will be a nice part of the offense going forward, and Anderson can give us that D presence…
I also think more that Tyrus is gone and we’ll love having a defending role player, shot blocker off the bench for 20 some minutes….
Either way, a guy who can play a nice role to give us a full 48 minutes of that role at a spot is better than ever seeing Big Aaron.
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
by majoyenrac on Jun 2, 2009 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What if Tyrus Thomas just changes his name?
I think if TT came into practice with a mustache Vinny would start playing him more.
“Who’s that mustached guy? He looks familiar … but he’s really good! And he says he’s a veteran? 40 minutes a night!”
Three things you must know:
-"Ben Gordon is a bundle of muscle and clutch. That's all he's made of. Drink BG7 energy drink, you'll grow a pair of balls on your balls."
-Pau Gasol: The defense of a seven foot ladder paired with the post presence of Manute Bol.
-Joakim Noah is better than you.
by Prevenge on Jun 3, 2009 3:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ha
Yes maybe you’re right…..
Really though not playing TYrus ain’t all on Vinny, as I’m a big time Tyrus THomas supporter and saw a lot of non-team play from TYrus in the playoffs….though I would have loved to see more Tyrus, especially in game 7 where I thought TYrus was playing well and suddenly wasn’t playing….
I still have very high hopes for him though….
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
by majoyenrac on Jun 3, 2009 7:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
umm, no
Birdman’s D is actually better than current Tyrus
It’s not. Birdman is a freak on the weakside block support. He led the league in block% this year.
Tyrus is a better man defender. You can put him on Lebron. Birdman had a couple chances to guard Kobe. Kobe put him in two posters.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jun 2, 2009 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can put him on Lebron
And Tyrus has shown flashes of sensational D….but all too often Tyrus falls asleep on D just as much.
In pure talent and in stretches, it’s no contest in favor of Thomas….but the Birdman is far more consistent in the minutes he plays and doesn’t drift out of position near the upper FT line…..and doesn’t seem to fall out of it.
I wouldn’t say have the Birdman take much of Tyrus’s minutes, but thinking Tyrus will if he stays play 25-28 minutes at PF and 5-10 split between C and hopefully SF. I’d like the Birdman coming in to replace his PF production…..and if he’s traded, then wow.
Tyrus knows he’s a good player, fans watching him know what he can do….Tyrus just needs to still learn to do what it is he CAN and knows he CAN do consistnetly.
He’s got the skills and the athleticims to be a dpoy candidate for years to come, while giving us more offense than he’s shown, but he’s still not there yet.
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
by majoyenrac on Jun 2, 2009 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, Hansbrough is the CLASSIC guy you cheer against and hate when he's not on your team...
…but you learn to love him when he’s yours. Much like Joakim Noah.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Jun 1, 2009 9:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's going to be a different player in the NBA.
The Scola/Songalia spectrum is very appropriate. You’re not going to be forcing the ball into him in the post all the time. He’s going to have to make an open jumper, run the floor, and finish when he catches the ball on the move off of cuts or offensive rebounds. And I think he’s capable of that.
by Scotter on Jun 1, 2009 9:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The best thing about Scola and Songaila? They're both positive APM contributors. All I ask of rotational big men is that they not be net negatives
even if that means coming in at a 0 on APM. So long as they’re not hurting, then things are copacetic.
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on Jun 1, 2009 10:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not if the Bulls take him at 16!!!
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Jun 1, 2009 9:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
They will end up trading him to the Blazers
Just like in 06’
:)
by Sabonis4Ever on Jun 1, 2009 9:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
bollocks.
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on Jun 1, 2009 9:45 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
After all this Hansbrough discussion lately
I feel like he’s already on the team. Not sure how I feel about that.
"Vinny continues to act like a crazed arsonist pouring gasoline on our season while running around carrying a torch yelling 'I’m in charge. Don’t any of you foolish knaves try to second guess me. I know gasoline is a liquid but I’m pretty sure it isn’t flammable and the odor gives me a natural high.'" - Tyrusmancrush
by Illini15 on Jun 1, 2009 10:03 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Don't worry about it
He will be far away.
by Sabonis4Ever on Jun 1, 2009 10:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let's all rejoice
I hated Joakim as well before he came to Chicago.
Now him and Derrick are my favorite 1-2 punch since you know who.
I just gotta learn to live with choices I cannot make
by Option27 on Jun 1, 2009 10:24 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Slightly different take
The Bulls need to establish a player development pipeline.
We should expect the players we draft to occupy positions 10-15 on the roster regardless of draft position.
Draft based on potential and the Bulls’ ability to develop players.
16 and 26 are very low positions plus this is a weak draft.
Since we have logjams at PG, SG, and SF, (pending any trades) draft bigs with the most potential, for example Daye and Mullins.
If the Bulls’ aren’t good at player development, change the culture (Pax).
Example: Jermaine O’Neill.
by hlac on Jun 1, 2009 11:35 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Logjam?
We are thin at both SG and SF…Salmons and Deng are really the only players at those positions…we should draft someone to swing between the two and perhaps be ready to start if there is an injury…like TWill, Ellington or Johnson…then with the second pick, we could add Hansbrough or another big that can play 10 minutes a night…
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Jun 2, 2009 8:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
not sure about the analogy
guys like Leon Powe and Glen Davis.
The problems is, Hansbrough is Mark Madsen…
by bob horse on Jun 2, 2009 12:02 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The Madsen comparison is fun shorthand for the short comings of Hansbrough, but
come draft time it helps to be more nuanced than that, or at least have some concept of what Mark Madsen was in college. A guy that scores 24 points per 40 min on a TS% above 60% is not Mark Madsen. A guy shooting 84% from the FT line with range out to the college 3-point line is not Madsen. And Glen Davis isn’t actually a high standard to reach.
by Scotter on Jun 2, 2009 12:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
T is offensive non-threat on the next left
As far as TH is concerned, he has one helpful offensive skill that will translate to the next level – he can hit an open mid-range jumper (free throw shooting does not matter because he won’t get fouled much). Unfortunately, he also has no defensive position, and no upside in this regard.
The man deserves great admiration for maximizing his talent. Sadly he has neither skills nor athleticism for the next level.
Davis is no Boozer, but he would have been drafted much higher if the GMs knew than what they know now. Like TH, he can hit a mid-range jumper; but he is also a really big dude who uses his width to score inside a little bit, and once in a while he can even put the ball on the floor. Hence, he does get fouled, and he makes his free throws. Big Baby just dominated Tyrus in the series and made strong contributions against the Magic too. Hansbrough will never be that good.
The team that drafts him will get the best garbage time rebounder in the league however.
by bob horse on Jun 2, 2009 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
madsen in college
Madsen managed 12.5 points, 9.4 rebounds, 1.1 assists, 2.2 fouls, 0.5 steals, 1.5 turnovers, 0.8 blocks, makes 4.8 of 8 field goals (60%) and 2.9 of 5 free throws (58%) while playing 27mpg his senior year. And Stanford was not nearly as good as NC.
So the hypothesis that he is the same player as Psycho-T (except that latter is a better shooter) may very well hold
by bob horse on Jun 2, 2009 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your own numbers conclusively
disprove that hypothesis. TH’s offensive game in college was far far better than Mark Madsen’s.
That’s like saying Pippen and Sefolosha are the same player, except Pippen was a better scorer. That’s all well and good, except that the difference makes Pippen a Hall of Famer, and Sefolosha a bench player on a bad team. Hence, they’re not the same player at all.
by runningman on Jun 2, 2009 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ahem...
The Bulls are not looking to win the NCAA next year.
I happily conceded that TH is a better shooter. However, neither TH nor MM is any kind of NBA scorer, if you understand the difference. Madsen had zero NBA offensive skills, and he still averaged 18.5PPG on 60% FG per 40 MPG in college. What does that tell you about the level of skill required for a smart hard-working 6’8" player to score on that level? There are a ton of people who are more athletic and have more diverse offensive game that TH, and they still can’t score consistently in the NBA…
And the rest of the numbers are probably in Madsen’s favor – he rebounded more and blocked more shots.
You can’t build an argument that TH is a way better NBA prospect than MM based on college stats
by bob horse on Jun 2, 2009 5:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
They're not all in Madsen's favor.
Rebounding favors Madsen, but it isn’t a clear advantage. Blocks favor Madsen, but steals favor Hansbrough. Hansbrough had a better turnover rate than Madsen, while having a bigger offensive role.
But, all of that is pointless because Leon Powe and Glen Davis also look awfully similar to Mark Madsen if you ignore what they scored and how they scored. Your initial objection was to comparing Hansbrough to Powe and Davis. It’s that objection along with completely ignoring scoring that makes your Madsen comparison ridiculous. If Madsen had Hansbrough’s jumpshot he would have played 10,000 minutes in the NBA instead of 5,000, which is still a hell of lot more than a lot of guys taken in the draft. Ignoring that jumpshot is ridiculous if you’re doing an honest evalutaion.
by Scotter on Jun 2, 2009 8:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
let me clarify
Sorry, I wasn’t very clear here.
I do think that Hansbrough is better than Madsen. I do think that a mid-range jumper is very helpful on any level, including the NBA, and that’s exactly why TH is better. As a matter of fact, what I am trying to convey is that Hansbrough is basically Madsen with a jumper. And I don’t want a Madsen with a jumper to be playing 18min a game for the Bulls.
I also maintain that each of Powe and Davis is both more physically talented more skilled than Hansbrough. I hope that is obvious, and I don’t need to break that down.
Finally, I don’t think Hansbrough is an upgrade over, say, Tim Thomas. If there is nobody better at 26, I suggest Bulls taking a chance on somebody with a higher ceiling even if he is likely to be a bust. You can find a hundred guys like TH in the NBDL or Europe. Gosh, isn’t even Mikki Moore a better fit?
by bob horse on Jun 2, 2009 11:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mikki Moore?
You’re way off the reservation now.
by Scotter on Jun 2, 2009 11:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're ridiculous.
By being “way off the reservation” by the time you were to Mikki Moore, you were already off long before.
But please, break down how Powe and Davis are more physically “talented” and gifted than Hansbrough. I’m due for a laugh.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Jun 3, 2009 12:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
All of Big baby's baby fat cushions his jumps,
meaning that he can … jump … more.
Three things you must know:
-"Ben Gordon is a bundle of muscle and clutch. That's all he's made of. Drink BG7 energy drink, you'll grow a pair of balls on your balls."
-Pau Gasol: The defense of a seven foot ladder paired with the post presence of Manute Bol.
-Joakim Noah is better than you.
by Prevenge on Jun 3, 2009 3:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
his jumper looked good when he was nailing a playoff game winner a couple of weeks ago
by bob horse on Jun 3, 2009 8:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
His jumper is hideous
There’s virtually no arc on it, there’s a reason he was a terrible jumpshooter in the regular season.
That Steve Nash is exactly the same as Kirk Hinrich, but worse.
by NBA Observer on Apr 8, 2009 12:23 PM CDT
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 3, 2009 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
pretty jumper is the one that goes in
he worked on his jumper and it looked reliable in the playoffs, including high pressure situations.
you are not saying that TH is a taller Rip Hamilton, are you?
by bob horse on Jun 3, 2009 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was talking about his physical ability to jump.
“break down how Powe and Davis are more physically "talented" and gifted than Hansbrough.”
Three things you must know:
-"Ben Gordon is a bundle of muscle and clutch. That's all he's made of. Drink BG7 energy drink, you'll grow a pair of balls on your balls."
-Pau Gasol: The defense of a seven foot ladder paired with the post presence of Manute Bol.
-Joakim Noah is better than you.
by Prevenge on Jun 3, 2009 7:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
super briefly
I just explained about Davis:
Davis has better range than TH; but he is also a really big dude who uses his width to score inside a bit, and once in a while he can even put the ball on the floor. Hence, he does get fouled, and he makes his free throws. Big Baby just dominated Tyrus in the series and made strong contributions against the Magic too.
Powe is a quick athlete with legitimate diverse offensive game inside 17ft. He is a tough assignment for all but elite defensive players. He would have been a lottery pick if he didn’t break his leg his senior year.
by bob horse on Jun 3, 2009 8:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Davis didn't have that shot AT ALL coming into the league. Tyler already has it out to college three point range.
Also, Hansbrough was 4th in the nation at drawing fouls. That’s a strength of his, too, which he shares in common with Powe and Davis.
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on Jun 3, 2009 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Davis always had a huge body and nice hands. So you thought that as he improves his jumper (and looses extra weight, which he still hasn’t quite accomplished) his game would open up. He had potential to develop decent NBA game.
Tyler appears to be as good as he will ever be. He might become a better shooter still – he is not deadly yet, but other than that… He is not projected to be able to put the ball on the floor, or score in the low post, or get a ton of rebounds in the NBA – so he won’t get fouled that much.
Look at it this way – a very skilled offensive player in more-or-less Tyler’s body is Scola. And TH will never be able to develop a game like trat – there is no precedent I can think of.
by bob horse on Jun 3, 2009 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did you know you thought all that about Davis FS?
I’m glad I wasn’t told what I thought.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Jun 3, 2009 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that was a case of bob horse pulling a Hubie Brown. Still funny, though.
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on Jun 3, 2009 8:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why is it that TH can never develop a game like that, again? He's a solid athlete with solid size
and has been very, very productive at the highest level of college basketball. I’m done doubting the guy. There are reasons for skepticism, but to just say he can’t ever develop is ridiculous. He’s also already got a good back to the basket game with very natural footwork and a tremendous ability to finish through contact. He also has gotten used to scoring through double teams which he will absolutely not see in the NBA, at least not right away, that will make life much, much easier for him.
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on Jun 3, 2009 8:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i'll let you have the last word
let’s see what happens.
by bob horse on Jun 4, 2009 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
A healthy and motivated (his biggest things have always been motivation) though he was hurt with us last year
Tim Thomas ain’t a bad player….he’s definitely talented….and he proved what he could do still do, until he landed on his back.
I’m not counting on TIm Thomas because he seems to like to give 50% effort throughout his career, but if he gets healthy and plays, he’s a nice to have…a talented spread the floor big coming off the bench.
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
by majoyenrac on Jun 3, 2009 8:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
TT is very talented. His 50% might be better than TH's 110%.
by bob horse on Jun 3, 2009 8:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know
Age and the injury bugs are hurting him….but if we got his full effort and health, Tim Thomas is definitely a nice to have.
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
by majoyenrac on Jun 3, 2009 9:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Given that Hansbrough measured out to be a decently sized PF, I don’t see there being much of a problem drafting him in the back end of this draft. Frankly, I like both of the picks Draft Express currently has us making; Gerald Henderson at 16 and Tyler at 26.
by Dr. Leisure on Jun 2, 2009 3:11 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Oh the irony...
Given all the hype the media got out of the Henderson elbow that broke Hansbrough’s nose. I’d be pretty pleased with a draft of Henderson/Hansbrough. It’d fill two needs (offensive post player and offensive wing player). And in the middle/late first round, I doubt you’re going to get much more than that.
by SouthernCub on Jun 2, 2009 10:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perfect Draft.
That would be a perfect draft for this Bulls team at 16 & 26. Both players can come in and help immediately in areas of need. I am coming around to the idea of using the #16 for Hansbrough and using the later pick on a wing or backup point depending BG/ Kirk scenario. Hansbrough might have too good of a resume to fall to the Bull’s at 26. Someone in the 20 would probably snatch him up. Utah would make sense because they probably will lose 1 of their poward forwards. Transitioning…
Speaking of Utah, what was the knock on Boozer when he came out of college and was drafted by Cleveland because he was a late draft pick?
by Jesse07 on Jun 2, 2009 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Athleticism! And whether he had the faceup game to play PF in the NBA.
The guy had a max vertical under 30" at the combine. Was he quick enough to guard 4s in the NBA? Which was tied to concerns about his weight as well. And he was nothing close to the jump shooter that he is now. He put in some serious work,and teams didn’t know if he had that kind of work ethic.
by Scotter on Jun 2, 2009 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That sounds like TH only without the 'didn't know about work ethic' part
Three things you must know:
-"Ben Gordon is a bundle of muscle and clutch. That's all he's made of. Drink BG7 energy drink, you'll grow a pair of balls on your balls."
-Pau Gasol: The defense of a seven foot ladder paired with the post presence of Manute Bol.
-Joakim Noah is better than you.
by Prevenge on Jun 3, 2009 3:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
my perspective
depends on if the Bulls are going to use and keep both their picks.
If we’re going to use both, I’d rather go for upside with the first pick and take someone like Mullens because I suspect there will be some decent “step right in” guys at the end of the draft like Young or Summers.
If we’re selling one or trading one, then yes, go for the low cieling, high floor guy just to add someone cheaply to our rotation.
by JSlakov on Jun 2, 2009 5:59 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
what about taking similar guys with both picks
assuming one will likely stink?
I could see the Bulls selling one of the first-rounders if a deal isn’t done on draft night.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 2, 2009 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is a good point:
It’s what Danny Ainge smartly did in consecutive second rounds of ’06 and ’07, getting guys like Leon Powe and Glen Davis. And when he had to gut his team to acquire KG, there were capable players to fill the remaining holes.
It was shocking this year how we went from a “too-deep” team (at least in theory, the reality of Larry Hughes aside) to a seven deep team with one trade and some injuries…
by RichKarp on Jun 2, 2009 7:19 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Danny Ainge didn't draft Powe or Davis...
He made trades to get them…and one of those trades was Jeff Green for Ray Allen…
Houston didn’t draft Scola either, they traded for him…
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Jun 2, 2009 8:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He traded for the picks and then drafted them.
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on Jun 2, 2009 9:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
San Antonio essentially gave Scola away, I'm still confused as to why they did that
Ainge still drafted those guys, he didn’t acquire the picks after they were made.
That Steve Nash is exactly the same as Kirk Hinrich, but worse.
by NBA Observer on Apr 8, 2009 12:23 PM CDT
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 2, 2009 10:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
reason = luxury tax
see PHX traded draft picks…
by kingj41 on Jun 2, 2009 10:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
it was that and Scola wanted to play real minutes and he was just not likely a good fit with Duncan operating on the block
where he likes to be. At least that was the thinking I remember reading. Turns out Scola has done just fine next to Yao, who is somewhat similar to TD, but shoots more jumpers.
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on Jun 2, 2009 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
At the time the Bulls offered Duhon for Scola, man it would've been nice to get that trade done
"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."
- fundamentallysound
by J Theory on Jun 2, 2009 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
couldn't work
Duhon had an expiring deal, but the Spurs got something more valuable, non-guaranteed deal. So it was immediate savings.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 2, 2009 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wanted Scola bad.
I thought Duhon was a good fit to trade, but they rather have Jaque.
by Jesse07 on Jun 2, 2009 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Missing out on Scola and giving up JR Smith are still two things I haven't gotten over.
by arjoseph on Jun 2, 2009 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We tried for Scola though
We did, I remember it was more than Duhon by the end there….maybe adding a pick or two…it was a much better deal than what the Spurs got (though actually Duhon backing up Parker would have been a nice thing for them, but I am sure it was some picks or soemthing else….or my memory fails…pretty sure though, because I remember being shocked when that rumor hit and it didn’t go through and instead they got nothing for him)….
But yeah that one sucks.
I’m fine with us not keeping JR Smith (he’s no BG) but I wish we kept him long enough to trade him when his value was back closer to where it should have been, rather than trade him at the absolute low for complete crap, even probably trading him lower than his value was at the time. I mean PJ Brown (expiring) and a what 20 year old, athletic tall JR Smith for 23 year old Chandler was and is a nice trade…it’s just that we let Smith go for garbage that gave the Hornets (and then the Nuggets robbed us later) the big advantage in that original Chandler trade….
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
by majoyenrac on Jun 2, 2009 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I answered it just above.
nonguaranteed is more value than expiring. They got a guy they could cut right away.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 2, 2009 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh I know that....
I get the financial reasons and tax….I just can’t believe a guy who for what 2 years was considered perhaps the best player NOT in the NBA gets traded for complete crap that didn’t even address a need for them besides financially…..
It sucked….I’m still shocked though I get it.
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
by majoyenrac on Jun 2, 2009 3:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Happens a lot
See Gasol, Pau.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Jun 2, 2009 4:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know that too
But Memphis is also a terrible organization, San Antonio seems to pride itself in playing smart.
I am still mad that we didn’t turn Deng into Gasol…..but so be it, I’ve talked of that now for what 4 years…..
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
by majoyenrac on Jun 3, 2009 8:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The smart organization the Spurs...
Traded a player for financial reasons so they could keep their 3 superstars and field a competitive team around them…
I agree that from a talent standpoint it doesn’t make sense, but from an organizational standpoint, there is more to the NBA than talent on the floor…which, to me, is one of the things that makes basketball so much fun to be a fan of…the teams have to be smart about personnel decisions for the long term health of the franchise…
I am with you on the Deng for Gasol thing…if that was out there, I can’t believe that move was not made.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Jun 3, 2009 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The smart organization made a bone headed move
That likely cost them at least 1 more real title shot.
They could have parted ways with other guys or not signed other guys to keep Scola’s $3M salary….I mean hell they paid almost half of that to Drew Gooden this year for 2 months of mostly injured work.
I agree that I like the fact that the NBA’s cba causes it not to just be a talent but a talent and a mix of contracts in trade talks, but this was just a very stupid move.
I mean worst case is the Spurs had 1 year of luxury tax for about $1M (costing them $2M) and used that to win a title….which garners them 100x that in merchandising….
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
by majoyenrac on Jun 3, 2009 10:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, but they could have taken duhon and not signed vaughn
though vaughn was still cheaper, i guess. but they’d be getting more bang for their buck with duhon, imo, and i never liked du so that’s saying a lot. ;)
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
by Jaina on Jun 2, 2009 8:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
IIRC
they signed Vaughn already…for some reason. He’s still playing somehow. Pop has his guys.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 3, 2009 9:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, i know vaughn was signed before scola was actually moved
but i thought the trade rumors had popped up before the signing.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
by Jaina on Jun 3, 2009 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not blaming Pax.
We didn’t have what the Spurs wanted (free money). I’m just still bummed.
by arjoseph on Jun 3, 2009 5:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
what do you call a no-brainer?
A Del Negro! bahahaaa
Derrick Rose once pissed in a soda can …we now call that Red Bull.
by Belize on Jun 2, 2009 8:04 AM CDT reply actions 5 recs
This is a guards draft...
So, I’m ok with us drafting Hansbrough at 16. I say, catch the better big man possible at 16, since there aren’t so many, and then look for a SG/SF at 26. Terrence Williams seems to be a nice player, but I’m not sure he’s going to fall that much. If not, I’ll be ok with Marcus Thornton
by bull83 on Jun 2, 2009 8:43 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
If we're going the Hansbrough route
I’d like to see us coax someone behind us to trade for the 16 pick. He’ll be there at least through 22-23, so no reason to overpay. If we could grab both him and Ellington in the last 10 picks of the first round, I’d be ecstatic.
by onthemark12 on Jun 2, 2009 10:24 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
what's the marginal increase in value from pick 22 to 16?
I’m guessing not much.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 2, 2009 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well if someone like say flynn slips
and we obviously wouldnt have much use for him, a team at 20 or 22 might want to jump up to get him, while we could go back and take a guy like hansbrough and not have to pay him as much on the rookie scale.
by Calogero on Jun 2, 2009 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd only do it to get an early 2nd-rounder, and none of the picks behind the Bulls have one.
Until the Kings at 23, but I don’t think there’s any guarantee Hansbrough will be left by then. The difference is only a few hundred thousand, and if they want to make sure they get Hansbrough (why else take him at 16?), that’s not worth it.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Jun 2, 2009 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was thinking of the value moving up from 26
You would think some cash strap team would take some cash besides future 2nd round picks to flip flop picks with the Bulls for #26. I don’t know what else the Bulls could offer. Can we trade the trade exceptions? I am not saying Jerry would give up the cash, but he might be a fan of Hansbrough from the Tourney.
Never underestimate the love of hard nosed blue collar players. Hans could get a Noce type reception. That is, until the Bulls way over pay a role player for a cripple the longterm finacial flexibility of the team. Im still hoping for Henderson & Hansbrough
by Jesse07 on Jun 2, 2009 1:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Chad Ford's New Mock Draft
Has us taking James Johnson at 16 and DaJuan Summers at 26? They both are projected to play the 4 in the NBA? Hansbrough will I guess give us 100% effort when he gets time but I don’t expect much more. If he turns out to be Scola then great. I’m just not to hype about this up coming draft with what I’m hearing so far.
by Bullsfanla on Jun 2, 2009 10:40 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Please stop Scola ceiling talks with Tyler
Luis Scola is in the top half of the 4s in the NBA. He has proven that by his play in the Lakers Rockets series before and after Yao went down. His play during the Rockets 19+ win streak two years ago when Yao was gone. He proved it by manning up against the US in the Olympics when Noc and Manu were playing on one leg or not at all. ( he had something like 28 and 16.)
I will go on record and say Tyler will never be the focal point of an offense for a half – the way Scola was in LA in game 5 ( or 2 cant remember).
Scola is bigger, great rebounder at NBA level, has a proven decent NBA big man outside jumper, and has post moves he uses against NBA 5s.
Hansborough’s ceiling should be a guy like Glen Davis. A below the rim player without great athleticism that works on the boards and has learned an NBA big man jumper.
by Jscho316 on Jun 2, 2009 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then why wasn't Scola in the NBA before?
"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."
- fundamentallysound
by J Theory on Jun 2, 2009 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
same reason other Argentinians come late
Manu was drafted in 99 didnt make it to big club til 02 at 25. Scola was drafted in 02 at 22 years old made it to NBA at 07. Same problems with european clubs and buyouts.
Oberto and Noc also came to the NBA after the Gold Metal of 04.
by Jscho316 on Jun 2, 2009 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Money and Minutes
Scola could always play. He was looking for the right situation to enter the NBA.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jun 2, 2009 2:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's called "ceiling" for a reason.
In baseball speak, it typically means a prospect has less than a 5% chance of ever being that good. I don’t think that’s out of reach at all.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Jun 2, 2009 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Except Glen Davis doesn't work on the boards. He's one of the worst big man rebounders in the league today.
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on Jun 2, 2009 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
IMHO, If you're losing Gordon you draft someone else who can shoot
Like Budinger. If you think you can resign Gordon, you draft TH and hope to get a backup SF like Summers at 26. (assuming Blair is gone by 16)
by 72-10 on Jun 2, 2009 11:18 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
If you lose Gordon
Draft Budinger and Summers, your lineup is:
1 Rose, Kirk
2 Salmons, Kirk, Bud, Nelson
3 Deng, Summers, Salmons
4 Thomas, TiT, Noah,
5 Noah, Miller, Grey *on a one year deal
by 72-10 on Jun 2, 2009 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
NO MORE GRAY
I don’t care hoe much $$, he hurts more htan he helps. I’d rather Tyrus switched in as a 3rd C than see Gray ruin anything we have with his lack of D and mostly poor O….
He’s just too slow.
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
by majoyenrac on Jun 2, 2009 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He has a qualifying offer for a million dollars
He won’t ever play real minutes, but it doesn’t hurt to have an insurance policy who is cheap as hell.
That Steve Nash is exactly the same as Kirk Hinrich, but worse.
by NBA Observer on Apr 8, 2009 12:23 PM CDT
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 2, 2009 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't think
He’d play real minutes this year, and sure enough 2 and 3 months in it was Aaron Gray’s time to kill a mini run or a 2-3 point lead. Let the momentum change.
No I know he’s cheap, but he’s not the guy, we can do better bringing back that Lucas whatever his name was from Australia….
Or probably 100 d-leaguers….
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
by majoyenrac on Jun 2, 2009 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and he's a good cheerleader.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 2, 2009 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well, if you lose gordon
you should just draft for crazy potential and deal hinrich, salmons, etc. To me that says full-scale rebuilding and cap-cutting.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 2, 2009 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
that is probably a better approach...
I just don’t know who is really much of a “potential” guy in the draft where we are picking. Certainly, TH is not a crazy potential guy… but I don’t think he is that much worse than our other options at 16.
One point should have more clear about is that I think how we pick in the draft is going to show our hand a little bit regarding Gordon, and that my preference is to resign him and make sure we draft a solid wing player who can backup Deng.
by 72-10 on Jun 2, 2009 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not even sure I'm making sense
the thought of staying the same course while just losing Gordon makes me ill every time.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 2, 2009 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hear ya
No way losing Ben for nothing is a good thing. Who is going to score next year if he’s gone???
ugh… we already don’t play defense! At least we’re fun to watch because we can score. With Ben gone we would suck at both…. but unfortunately it is a real possibility, and thus my plan of getting shooters to replace him as a 6th man.
by 72-10 on Jun 2, 2009 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Scoring is not the issue with this team...
Defense is the issue with this team, not that Del Negro has a clue how to coach it…
If Ben Gordon is gone, his shots will gladly be taken by other players…
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Jun 2, 2009 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who will then score less,
creating a scoring problem?
Three things you must know:
-"Ben Gordon is a bundle of muscle and clutch. That's all he's made of. Drink BG7 energy drink, you'll grow a pair of balls on your balls."
-Pau Gasol: The defense of a seven foot ladder paired with the post presence of Manute Bol.
-Joakim Noah is better than you.
by Prevenge on Jun 3, 2009 3:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
nevermind that
D2.0 will love the ball movement.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 3, 2009 9:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
together with the expiring shot clock?
man up!
by exult463 on Jun 3, 2009 10:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What would you rather do
lose 115-105 or win 85-80?
by hlac on Jun 3, 2009 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Doesn't guarding
Ben tire out the other team a bit?
Ben also ain’t nearly as bad a defender as you’d think. He does take plays off….as do a lot of “better” defenders. He’s avg at D, and the myth of height disadvantage was mostly proven this year to be a myth because he’s built like a tank.
I think Derrick Rose was far inferior defensively this year…..far far far inferior….but I have high hopes with Derrick due to athleticism, and leaping ability…he’s a freak. But Rose was barely playing adequate college defense at the pro level for 80% of the time.
And having an avg at best defender next to him and some at times aloof post D was murder.
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
by majoyenrac on Jun 3, 2009 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, we're totally going to make the other team score 80 points
I would rather win 110-105 than lose 100-110.
Three things you must know:
-"Ben Gordon is a bundle of muscle and clutch. That's all he's made of. Drink BG7 energy drink, you'll grow a pair of balls on your balls."
-Pau Gasol: The defense of a seven foot ladder paired with the post presence of Manute Bol.
-Joakim Noah is better than you.
by Prevenge on Jun 3, 2009 7:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
*95-100 is a better number there for the second one.
Three things you must know:
-"Ben Gordon is a bundle of muscle and clutch. That's all he's made of. Drink BG7 energy drink, you'll grow a pair of balls on your balls."
-Pau Gasol: The defense of a seven foot ladder paired with the post presence of Manute Bol.
-Joakim Noah is better than you.
by Prevenge on Jun 3, 2009 7:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Offense is still the issue too.
they now manage to be bad at both.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 3, 2009 9:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Scoring wasn't a problem though
Having a traditional offense at any point in the game was.
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
by majoyenrac on Jun 3, 2009 9:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
scoring efficiently.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 3, 2009 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wasn't disagreeing with you
But scoring is scoring….
If we shifted from the run and gun to a traditional offense at times, I’d be happy….of course I think without a glimmer of a traditional big (not even an off the bench one) it’s tough…
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
by majoyenrac on Jun 3, 2009 10:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not all offenses are equal
The Bulls can easily score 100 points a game, but if they’re all coming off contested jumpers early in the shot clock, it’s not very effective.
That Steve Nash is exactly the same as Kirk Hinrich, but worse.
by NBA Observer on Apr 8, 2009 12:23 PM CDT
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 3, 2009 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again
We have little other choices….last I looked Tyrus THomas, Joakim Noah, Brad Miller and Tim THomas all aren’t post up players…they’re jump shooters.
Tyrus and Noah can get some lobs, but there’s only so much of that you can do before the D adjusts.
Tyrus can score more in put backs, but he seems to want to hang out by the FT line for his improving jump shot.
I do agree that we iso too often….but I think our talent is predicated ont hat kind of an attack (at least until Rose starts to hit the 3 and the deep 2 more consistently—which he was makign big strides at)….if he hits that, the lane’ll open up for the athletics of Noah and THomas…..
Even still no post moves is a HUGE problem, easily our biggest…and I really hope we try to address this soon, as it’s what’s going to keep us in the middle to lower end of the playoffs….
We have great athlete’s, good offensive players, guys who can play D, but until the other team has to learn to address both our drive and kick and iso and throw in a little back to the basket play, we’re going to be a 2 trick pony on O, predicated on quick jump shots….we’re easier to defend, despite having some of the best 1-3’s on O in the league…
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
by majoyenrac on Jun 3, 2009 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, we could get open jumpers off of ball movement or cutters
Not like all jump shooters need to shoot contested J’s.
Three things you must know:
-"Ben Gordon is a bundle of muscle and clutch. That's all he's made of. Drink BG7 energy drink, you'll grow a pair of balls on your balls."
-Pau Gasol: The defense of a seven foot ladder paired with the post presence of Manute Bol.
-Joakim Noah is better than you.
by Prevenge on Jun 3, 2009 7:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thomas and Miller aren't just jump shooters.
They get to the FT line by driving by defenders running at them, 1 FTA/2 FGA. And both take 45% of their shots close to the basket. Post scoring isn’t the problem The lost to the Celtics had very little to do with the offense, and almost everything to do with the defense and rebounding, And it’s the guards who bear the biggest responsibility for that failure.
by Scotter on Jun 3, 2009 9:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tyrus's shots
Close to the basket are put backs….
Miller needs to hit a few jump shots before his “old man drives” open up.
Neither really have any true post moves….Millers come from a slow drive…
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
by majoyenrac on Jun 4, 2009 7:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed...
both players’ offensive games rely on facing the basket. Neither has a good posts game offensive.
by SouthernCub on Jun 4, 2009 8:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Post scoring isn't about scoring with your back to the basket
it’s about being able to dump the ball to a guy and have him get you a high percentage chance at scoring and opening up the rest of the offense by demanding a double team. Tyrus and Miller’s face up games and drives to the hoop can serve the same function. Tyrus needs to drive more and shoot a little less on those jumpers, but he’s got the right idea.
Scotter is spot on about the need for the Bulls defense to improve. Post-trade the Bulls were one of the more efficient offenses in the league, IIRC, it was the defense which suffered (the drop off from Deng to Salmons on defense is really, really large).
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on Jun 4, 2009 9:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course the D needs to improve.
THe drop from Hinrich to Rose was far larger. Salmons ain’t a bad defender by any stretch, and the BaB regulars are a bit too high on Deng’s D.
I am saying, our offense, while improved post the trade because we added 2 weapons, still is missing the most significant piece to make things easier when we hit rougher stretches (Which the Celtics fed upon that entire series).
Tyrus has no post moves, Miller has no post moves, JoNo has no post moves…..they scored in the post mostly by put backs or our fast break/running game, which we were great at, and that hid a lot of the inefficiencies of our O.
If our O is tougher with more weapons (jump shooting, guard play, put backs and INSIDE scoring, it will dramatically help our defense…..
Right now our D suffers because a lot of it was ROse not being able to defend his man at all, save for a flash here or there, and because the jump shots lead to easy hoops in transition when they’re missed).
Having a guy who could score inside would be great….I just wish Boozer wasn’t so oft-injured :) .
Having our O pound the inside guys on the other team, will make it tougher for them to run back and be the aggressors on the other end.
I really don’t see how Salmons, who guarded one of the best SF’s int he league very very well I mgith add, suddenly is a bad defender….
I think it’s the I love Deng BaB mentality to a T.
All I remember seeing was Rondo having his way with Rose, BG fighting through a billion screens on Ray Ray and before the hamstring injury him playing pretty good, underrated D)….
Hinrich played good D on Pierce too,a nd it was a nice tactic to give him a fresh face, but Salmons ain’t a bad defender by any stretch of the imagination….
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
by majoyenrac on Jun 4, 2009 10:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Salmons has always been a bad defender
outside of his decent, but not great, 1 on 1 defense. He did an okay job on Pierce in 1 on 1 situations, but that doesn’t make him a good defender. He’’s usually disinterested in team defense, and team defense is the only way to succeed in the current NBA. It’s evident in his defensive rebounding and it extends to other aspects of his team defense. This even talked about at the time the trade was made. He’s a 1 on 1 player on both offense or defense.
And Rose was so terrible on defense to the point where the team was better off with Hinrich playing point guard the majority of the time. That’s been stated over and over.
Gordon was what he is. Yes his defense is underrated, but he’s still a defensive liability no matter how much effort he gives, especially when surrounded by Rose and Salmons instead of Deng, Hinrich, and Duhon.
When you have Rose, Gordon, and Salmons out there together. You’re getting terrible defensive rebounding from the perimeter positions. Very few forced turnovers. And poor help defense. The Bulls bigs obviously had their issues, but if you swapped Davis, Perkins, Scalibrine for Thomas, Noah, and Miller the Celtics wouldn’t have gotten worse and the Bulls wouldn’t have gotten better.
Post scoring isn’t the magic it’s made out to be. And it certainly wouldn’t solve the defensive problems. Would it be nice sure? Sure. It’s good to have multiple ways to attack a defense. But post scoring is way down the list of issues for this team. And if you have to sacrifice defense to get a post scorer on the floor, the team is usually going to end up worse..
by Scotter on Jun 4, 2009 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We shall disagree
Salmons rap was poor D when we got him true, but I think a lot of that was becasue in SACTO they played no D. Our D dramatically improved in stretches in the second half, and yes I agree that Hinrich out there was better for us in stretches than Rose…because Rose’s D was poor.
I still disagree I think the vast majority of NBA players can play D (and I think Salmons was better than you think there), it’s the system that’s a problem, and we played no system until the last week of the year, before then we were switch, switch switch, or do whatever D.
I do think our biggest single problem that sticks out like a sore thumb is our jump shooting offense. When those shots are missed, which they are at a what 55-56% of the time, we’re exposed for much easier looks for our opponents.
I know we’ll always have some jump shooting, and we have a littany of great solid guards and SF’s, but having the ability to change gears to throw a defense off with inside scoring shouldn’t be a luxury after 6-7 years of searching for some real inside scoring….and it still is.
I also don’t think our D got worse when Salmons came to town, I think if anything Rose’s lack of D was magnified as teams continued to watch film, but Deng is not leaps and bounds better than Salmons defensively….
And I guess we’ll have to disagree on our opinions (I do like your analyses always though).
We’ll see I can change my tune…but right now from what I remember, I am not going to.
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
by majoyenrac on Jun 4, 2009 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Deng's defense may be in the eye of beholder, but you can measure
Deng’s rebounding and it is leaps and bounds better than Salmons, especially when fully healthy, And all the statistical ways to measure defense favor Deng.
And the Bulls are an average team as far as the number of jumpshots they take. Look around the league there are plenty of jump shooting teams, and several of them have been that way for a long time. And they were a jump shooting team when they were a top 5 defensive team for three straight seasons. Post scoring would be nice addition, but it’s just one way to score and in a lot of cases post scoring just ends up being a more inefficient means of scoring.
by Scotter on Jun 4, 2009 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know we were a top 5 (top 2) defense
For several years when we had a real post presence.
I don’t think that’s on Deng….as we fell towards the middle with him in place.
Deng ain’t a bad defender, he probably is a shade better than Salmons, but it’s a shade, not leaps and bounds better, and Salmons is far more explosive offensively than Luol’s ever been sans that little mini stretch he had in Jan.
I guess I’m just negative on Deng as I’ve always been because of the BG situation….
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
by majoyenrac on Jun 5, 2009 7:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who was the real post presence?
Eddy Curry? Mike Sweetney? Ben Wallace’s fadeaway jumper?
by Scotter on Jun 5, 2009 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Post defender
Was there…Noah is good, but he’s nowhere near the defensive stopper that Ben Wallace, Tyson Chandler or PJ Brown were when they were here when we played that well….
And Derrick’s not the defender that Kirk was….
And well VDN employed essentially no D tactics until the Boston series….
I do think though if we actually had a real structured offense, given modern Noah, our D would improve just by the O improving…..and being more versatile.
I mean hell, look at the Magic. Sure Dwight’s a great defender, but Lewis, Turkoglu, Nelson? Not in the league of a Thomas, Deng, Salmons, Hinrich….defensively, yet because of the pressure Howard places on the other teams to defend, those guys are more than holding their own (unless they play a surprisingly to start healthy looking Bynum and of course Pau….
THe Lakers too, their defense shouldn’t be all that great (Bynum’s at 60%, Pau’s, Pau….Kobe’s solid, but not MJ, Fisher’s too old these days to do it not in flashes. Odom’s never been much of a defender, but is looking better….Ariza’s a good role player, but having the attack of Odom, Pau, Bynum int he post and the elecric Kobe going really helps their defense, and that defense once geared on helps their offense roll.
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
by majoyenrac on Jun 5, 2009 4:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously, don't argue with majo.
(S)he just makes stuff up w/ no supporting evidence except that it’s his/her observations and claims it as fact. You can mock that, but you can’t argue against it.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Jun 7, 2009 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
F You Tyger
I am just saying my opinions, not arguing at all…
You are a dick
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
by majoyenrac on Jun 7, 2009 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also Mr. Expert
What shit am I making up? Nothing….
Stating opinions does not equal stating facts.
Defensive stats are not easy to measure because they depend on systems you are in and how your O and D rolls.
You are a moron….and just try to stir crap up for nothing….
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
by majoyenrac on Jun 7, 2009 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Typical too
Of you Tyger to but in here make a stupid point as if I’m arguing with someone, rather than discussing, say I make shit up with no evidence, and then don’t respond when I ask what I made up….
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
by majoyenrac on Jun 8, 2009 7:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
it seemed like rose did ok with rebounding.
by TheMoon on Jun 4, 2009 5:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Better in the playoffs, but for a point guard
with his athleticism it was a disappointment and he allowed Rondo to dominate the boards. A big part of Rose’s value was supposed to be the things he could do that other point guards couldn’t. Rebounding was supposed to be one of those areas.
by Scotter on Jun 4, 2009 5:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He did ok with rebounding
Which may skew his “defensive” impact numbers, but his defense was atrocious…..really really bad.
D is always a hard thing to use in statistics…..
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
by majoyenrac on Jun 5, 2009 7:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also
I seem to recall time and time again Rondo getting a rebound that Tyrus or Brad should have had…
Derricks defense was totally exposed in that series, but it also was exposed that our bigs sans Noah tend to hang out too far away from the rim.
Tyrus has proven he can be a big time rebounder in the post, but as the season progressed he seemed to want to more and more be a 3, playing a 4 spot. I think he can shine there given the glimpses of D he proved on some of the ebst players in the game (Pierce, Lebron and Kobe at times this year) and with his jump shot falling and his agility and athleticism, I am surprised we don’t put him more there as he’ll be effective in that role.
If he plays the 4 the way he should, he’s good, problem is he seems to play a 3 spot more often as a 4, and that bunches up our offense.
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
by majoyenrac on Jun 4, 2009 9:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
turnovers
TT turns the ball over to much to be consistent at the 3… but in limited time and with the right floor mates, it would be acceptable…
Even if you move him there on occasion, you still need a solid backup at the 3 for the inevitable Deng injury.
by 72-10 on Jun 4, 2009 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tyrus
Is improving far more in the “guard/SF type mold” than I ever would have expected.
He gets crazy with the ball at times, but that’s more on him letting his game come to him. I am not saying Tyrus is a major minute 3 next year, but I think we work him in there in 10 minute per game stretches….should have done that this year.
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
by majoyenrac on Jun 4, 2009 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
the guards bear the biggest responsibilty for the poor defense
and rebounding? I don’t think so. The Bulls can’t protect the basket and they can’t keep guys off the boards. Seriously, Salmons, Tyrus, Noah and Miller are all poor defensive rebounders. They were simply out muscled by the Celtics. Expecting our guards to make up for the poor rebounding of our frontcourt is a bit much.
by Basketball Smurf on Jun 5, 2009 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Miller, Tyrus, and Noah aren't actually poor defensive rebounders
even if they do get pushed around at times. They actually out rebounded the Celtics bigs. The biggest difference between the teams is that Pierce and Rondo crashed the defensive boards, and consistently beat the Bulls guards to the ball.
by Scotter on Jun 5, 2009 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
amen. rondo crashed
the offensive boards, yet the celts out-transitioned the bulls anyway.
now it’s time for me to check out that “new” bosh rumor tread… don’t you know? just add his skinny self to derrick, ben and jo and it’s hello championships!
heh, i wrote “tread”. (definition: a re-tread thread!)
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
by marionette on Jun 5, 2009 3:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rondo was the glaring
Rebound issue as mostly Tyrus (of course Rose, but mostly Tyrus) kept forgetting to put their hands on him….
John wasn’t shooting well and his outside shot was clanging back to Pierce.
I hope that’s more an injury thing, cuz I watched him a bit in the Bulls and before and when he’s zoned in, he’s relaly good. It’s just that he wasn’t zoned in a lot in Sacto (cuz his team quit)…
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
by majoyenrac on Jun 5, 2009 4:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The PF is supposed to box out the PG? Ooooookay.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Jun 7, 2009 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Um
Yeah the PF is supposed to help control the paint and secure boards over guys who are 8 inches shorter.
Noah did his part consistently, so it’s not on him….but yes, if a guard continues to get boards in the paint, esp for the 7th straight game, the 8 inch taller Tyrus really needs to also keep an eye on him….
What the F game do you watch anyway?
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
by majoyenrac on Jun 7, 2009 2:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So then who boxes out the PF?
You’re a dolt.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Jun 9, 2009 9:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What the hell's a dolt
The PF and C are most responsible to control the paint.
Of course Rose has to also help there, but there’s no excuse for a little 6 ft 1 inch tranny to grab 9-12 boards a game against good post defenders….
I’m proud to be a dolt I guess, esp coming from the great Tyger1147.
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
by majoyenrac on Jun 9, 2009 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
for the record
i completely agree with you. Asking a point guard to battle for offensive boards is ridiculous. I think I argued below pretty well that Tyrus needed to make a bigger diffrence in the paint to stop Rondo from getting his ridiculous defensive rebound totals.
Rose as a point guard isn’t going to be boxing out Rondo when the Bulls shoot. Rondo was mainly a defensive rebounder in the Bulls series. But somehow its Rose’s fault that our starting power forward couldn’t out rebound their starting point guard or their third and fourth string power forwards.
by Basketball Smurf on Jun 10, 2009 6:54 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd my friend.
I mean one game or another, it happens that a PG might catch the post players off guard, even if they prep for it, but 7 games of it….that’s not on Rose….it’s on Tyrus (And would be on Noah if he didn’t um play ridiculously great while giving up 50lbs, 30 of which were muscle….
Tyger1147 is a douche bag
by majoyenrac on Jun 10, 2009 8:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
a couple of points
I think it is unfair to ask Rose to rebound at Rondo’s rate when Rondo is one of the best rebounding point guards the NBA has ever seen. Rondo actually rebounded better in the Orlando series than he did in the Bulls series. Rondo was the Boston Celtics second best rebounder in the playoffs.
On the other hand the Celtics were playing one of the worst rebounding power forwards in the NBA (Davis). You are acting as if you can do a straight 1 to 1 comparison down the line. “If Rondo and Pierce got 18 rebounds, than Rose and Salmons should have gotten 18 rebounds.” I don’t believe that you can or should. Rondo and Pierce should not have been allowed to defensive rebound at the rate they were rebounding, and that falls onto the bigs.
The Bulls should have been out rebounding the Celtics along the front line, the Celtics were down to their third string power forward. That should have been a weakness the Bulls exploited, not something they broke even on.
Rondo did increase his rebound percentage in the playoffs, but, as you note, he did most of his damage on defensive rebounding. His defensive rebound rate was 21.7%, his offensive rebound rate was 6.5%. In comparison, Davis had a 7.5% offensive rebound rate and Perkins had a 11.6% offensive rebound rate. Besides Game 2 (where Rondo had 7 offensive rebound), Rondo’s offensive rebounding exploits are identical to Rose’s.
It is very rare that a point guard has a high offensive rebound rate. You are positing a situation where Rose should be crashing the offensive boards to reduce Rondo’s defensive rebounding. That doesn’t seem logical to me. Rondo wasn’t beating Rose to the ball on defensive rebounds – Rose wasn’t going to the boards in those situations, his job was to get back and stop transition baskets. What seems more likely is that the Bulls bigs should be getting more offensive rebounds over the smaller Rondo and Pierce. The Bulls did not exploit the Celtics on the offensive glass despite the absence of Garnett and Powe. Rondo wasn’t beating Rose to defensive boards – Rondo was beating Tyrus, Noah and Miller, since the Bulls (nor many other teams) don’t ask their guards to crash the offensive boards.
To that end, the fact that Rose and Tyrus had similar offensive rebound rates, 4.7 to 5.1, suggests that Tyrus, who was hanging out under the basket presumably, should have been rebounding better. By comparison Miller ORB% was 7.3 and Noah was a solid 12.8%. Rondo’s offensive rebound rate was 6.5%. Tyrus was attacking the offensive glass as if he was a point guard, not a power forward. Tyrus had the lowest offensive rebound rate of any big in the series, despite going head to head with a very bad defensive rebounder in Davis. For the series Rose and Tyrus averaged 6.3 rebounds a game. Rose’s rebound % went up in the playoffs. Tyrus rebound % went down (though very slightly).
When a team is playing their third and fourth string power forwards heavy minutes, you have to be able to hurt them on the offensive glass. Part of the reason Rondo and Pierce were crashing the defensive glass was to make up for the absence of Garnett and Powe. Perhaps the Bulls should have sent Rose to the offensive glass more. On the other hand, I think the Bulls had to expect Tyrus (and Miller as well) to rebound against Davis and Scalabrine better than he did, especially on the offensive glass. Tyrus needed to exploit his matchup with Davis and Scalabrine, and he did not. Instead, Rondo was more than 4 times more likely to grab a board on a Bulls missed shot than Tyrus. That can’t happen, not with someone as athletic as Tyrus Thomas.
To me, the big rebounding problems were our forwards – Salmons and Thomas.
by Basketball Smurf on Jun 5, 2009 8:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rose's problem has never been offensive rebounding.
It’s always been defensive rebounding. And he showed up better on that end in the 2nd half of the series. Better than he was during 95% of the regular season. Noah, Miller, And Thomas all had better defensive rebounding rates in the playoffs than they did in the regular season. Salmons and Gordon were the guys with the big decline in defensive rebounding.
Offensive rebounding is a different matter. Miller and Thomas saw the same decline in their offensive rebounding rate, partly because neither one was under the basket on offense as much as the regular season. Their performance mirrored each other. And the other part of the drop is that Rondo and Pierce helped the Celtics clear the defensive glass and got to the long rebounds. It doesn’t matter if Davis gets the rebound himself if he gets a body on Thomas, Miller, or Noah and Rondo and Pierce are there to get the board. And it’s not just a postseason thing. They helped considerably more on the defensive boards in the regular season as well than Salmons, Gordon, etc.
The blame for the playoff series can be pretty equaling pointed at every player with the exception of Noah, and possibly Hinrich gets a pass. The rest of the players didn’t do what they needed to do. But where Miller and Thomas failed wasn’t rebounding, it was turning the ball over and failing to finish around the basket respectively.
by Scotter on Jun 5, 2009 11:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
talking about ill
3 minutes into a game Tyrus throws the ball away, Vinny calls a time-out and brings in savvy Psycho-T to settle down his front line.
I am not a fan of TT, but I won’t be able to watch Bulls basketball for a while if I see this happen a few times…
by bob horse on Jun 2, 2009 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Daye and Mullens are two that come to mind.
Because of Daye’s “smoothness” and slight frame and Mullens athleticism and rawness, they have untapped potential with excuses as to why they haven’t yet reached it. If the Bulls were going whole-sale rebuilding, I’d take one of those guys over Thomas. It’s likely neither ever contributes to a team, but if Daye put on 40 pounds and Mullens pulled his out of his ass (if that’s even possible) they would be better than what I think Hansbrough probably would be.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Jun 2, 2009 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Chad Fords latest Mock Draft 3.0:
PICK 16
Chicago
James Johnson
Position: PF
Height: 6-8
Weight: 258
Age: 22
School: Wake Forest
Analysis: There’s been talk that the Bulls may take a look at Tyler Hansbrough. He definitely is a John Paxson-type of player.
However, Johnson is a talent who could give the Bulls an offensive lift at the 4. He’s temperamental, but at this point in the draft he’s probably worth it.
PICK 26
Chicago
(via Denver)
DaJuan Summers
Position: SF
Height: 6-9
Weight: 243
Age: 21
School: Georgetown
Analysis: Summers is an NBA athlete and a good scorer whose game really slipped toward the end of the season. More and more, NBA scouts are projecting him as a 4 in the league. He’s not a great rebounder, but he could give the Bulls some much-needed offense down low. Based on talent, he could go much higher, and he’s a value pick for the Bulls here.
"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."
- fundamentallysound
by J Theory on Jun 2, 2009 11:43 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
link
"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."
- fundamentallysound
by J Theory on Jun 2, 2009 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
interesting
that Ford keeps changing the 16 pick… I wonder what the deal is…. if he is just guessing, or if he’s hearing real rumors.
by 72-10 on Jun 2, 2009 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
DX just posted the rest of the measurements
Hansbrough – 34 Max Vertical – 18 Reps of 185 – 11.12 Lane Agility – 3.27 3/4 Court Sprint
by Johnny 'Thread' Kerr on Jun 2, 2009 3:33 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
So.
He’s got a longer standing reach that Griffin, and his vertical is only 1.5 inches less.
:O
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Jun 2, 2009 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The difference is that Griffin had 32" no step vert and Hansbrough had a 27.5"
Griffin explodes off the floor, Tyler doesn’t. That makes a difference defensive rebounding inside or being able to go straight up and dunk the ball.
Tyler like a lot of guys is fine athletically if he’s on the move and can transfer his momentum into his jump. Offensive rebounding, finishing in transition, etc. Shouldn’t be a problem. Since he can’t go up get defensive rebounds over a guys heads, he’s going to have to muscle guys out of the way. He’s strong enough, but maybe not wide enough to do rebound well on defense in the NBA.
by Scotter on Jun 2, 2009 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Sounds like
he either gonna be as bad as Kwame or as good as… Battier (?)
Derrick Rose once pissed in a soda can …we now call that Red Bull.
by Belize on Jun 2, 2009 9:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Brown wouldn't be horrible if he weren't dumber than a box of rocks.
Even though he never developed an offensive skill set, he still could be a more-than-serviceable big if he were able to apply (and did) a cerebral aspect to his defense similar to Battier.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Jun 3, 2009 12:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Im all good with the bulls drafting tyler
do you guys think ellington is going to be there at #26?
by materd on Jun 2, 2009 6:23 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I do.
That would be good then.
Three things you must know:
-"Ben Gordon is a bundle of muscle and clutch. That's all he's made of. Drink BG7 energy drink, you'll grow a pair of balls on your balls."
-Pau Gasol: The defense of a seven foot ladder paired with the post presence of Manute Bol.
-Joakim Noah is better than you.
by Prevenge on Jun 3, 2009 3:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
That would be great, And I think Hansbrough would be a great pick up, He’s got what we need right now, Size and scoring ability to go along w/ it, I still say that Noah and Thomas are way better defensive guys but have very limited offense, And we all seen what Miller was able to do w/ both Noah and Thomas in the time he had w/ them before the post-season, I still say that Miller was the main guy who got them over that hump and not Del Negro, He made alot costly mistakes that cost us the series imo, If we find a way to keep Gordon, amd then have all these other guys coming off the bench learning day by day, And Derek Rose will be ever better, I’ll say that we’ll be a 3rd-5th seed in the playoffs and get better every year, If we do in fact give up Hinrich, I think we’ll take a step back, He and Miller showed out for the most part against the Celts, And not to mention if we keep him we could have a 8-9 solid rotation instead of 7.
by bama_man on Jun 3, 2009 9:39 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Hansbrough is a solid player
He’s not great but he doesn’t hurt your team. With the 26th pick I don’t mind that at all. I think all the hype has made people under value him a little now. He has more talent than Mark Madsen though. I think what Haslem does is a pretty accurate projection. We know what he can do and what he gives you. He will be a decent pick and pop big, give you energy and effort off the bench and not cause problems in the locker room. I don’t like it at 16 though because I think there will be better players there potentially such as his teammate Wayne Ellington or maybe someone else slips.
by bigballa10 on Jun 3, 2009 1:20 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I've changed my mind about Hansbrough.
I HATED Hansbrough in college (also hate Joakim Noah). But after seeing he measured out at 6’ 10" in shoes, GIVE ME HANSBROUGH AT 16 UNLESS THERE IS SOMEBODY WE CANNOT PASS ON!!! I always thought he was closer to 6’7" than 6’10". But if indeed he is that big then I could live with him at 16.
Instant toughness at the 4. You need guys like him to win. He is an absolute Bull (literally) and would be an animal on the glass. Not going to be an offensive star or anything but at his size he could be somebody that defenses have to pay attention to.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Jun 4, 2009 12:03 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
But still I prefer James Johnson @ 16
Because aside from Salmons, who may be around or not, we have no real SF wings player and definitely one that has handles. Deng is a stift without handles or a 3pt shot. Hansbrough would be an good also, so maybe package pick #26 with cash to move up to also get Tyler.
Then we would have two serviceable forwards(SF/PF, PF) probably better than the two we have on the team now and both rookies have established mid-range jumpers already…
man up!
by exult463 on Jun 4, 2009 7:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And, he's a black belt martial artist (seriously)...
so he’s not afraid of anybody on the court. For whatever that’s worth… :)
I think that one pick should be a post player with some offensive skills, and one pick should supplement our backcourt/wing. Depending on how the roster plays out (does Hinrich/Deng/Salmons get traded? do we officially plan on losing Gordon to free agency?), that could either be a backup PG, a SG, or a SF – but most likely a guard.
by SouthernCub on Jun 4, 2009 8:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No Way!!
Hansbrough wouldn’t be a good fit for this team. We got guys who shoot mid range jumpers in Tyrus Thomas, Brad Miller, Luol Deng and John Salmons. We don’t need this guy. We need a 7’0 who can dominate inside, not this guy. We need to add bench players. Find good solid bench players in this draft who can bring good play off our bench and who will sign cheap and then in ‘10 we sign Chris Bosh. We don’t need Hansbrough. He never faced big guys like there are in the NBA. Howard, KG, Yao, Bynum, Gasol and Bosh will all beat this guy up inside. He can barely dunk and he’s not the greatest shooter. I say no to Hansbrough.
by South side pride 13 on Jun 8, 2009 12:14 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
It would be nice to have a 7 footer with post moves and no glaring defensive weaknesses.
Then again, it would be nice to have MJ back, too.
-I was wrong about Pau Gasol. I have been shamed. :(
by Prevenge on Jun 15, 2009 7:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

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