Celtics 109, Bulls 99: Bulls fail to beat average team on the road
by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 3, 2009 12:48 PM CDT
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PrintWhen I made the pact to just forget about the Bulls and enjoy this series, it's not fair to then dump on the same things that made the series exciting in the first place.
Playing 4 guards for most of the second half? Lindsey Hunter over Tyrus Thomas? Thomas getting 17 minutes overall? It's not a shock that the Bulls couldn't defend or get a rebound to get within arm's length of the Celtics all 2nd half. But that sort of play is partly what made this series so fun to watch, I guess.
What was uncharacteristic (except in game 3) was the Bulls 2nd quarter. Just an abysmal performance: 11 points, on 21% shooting and 8 turnovers, taking an early lead on the back of Rose and Gordon to a deficit they never recovered from.
And they couldn't recover because they don't run a real offense, and have a bad defense. Playing 4 guards and Brad Miller helps excacerbate that disadvantage. Sometimes it leads to great individual performances and thrilling comebacks. Other times it'll lead to losses. With no clear talent advantage on either side, the Bulls didn't lose this game due to lack of experience or savvy, but because they're an unpredictable poorly-coached team, and sometimes the usual tricks don't work. Even if it made for a fun couple of weeks.
And it was that. This series deserves a day or so to stand on its own. The Bulls and the Celtics put in a classic, and gave us a ton of memories.
Then this coming week we can move on to the challenge of figuring out and enhancing an entirely mediocre team on the brink of the luxury tax.
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is this like 'by mennen'?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 3, 2009 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions
Co-Stanza!
"When a hyper-intense guy looks for ways to fire himself up, yeah, it pretty much comes out as wild eyed psycho lunacy." - Jeff Clark from C's blog on KG
by Khalid El-Amin on May 4, 2009 2:03 AM CDT up reply actions
MATT DAMEN
"Ben Gordon is a bundle of muscle and clutch. That's all he's made of. Drink BG7 energy drink, you'll grow a pair of balls on your balls."
Most important acquisition this off-season? The dead hooker that belongs in Vinny’s trunk, if that’s what it’ll take to get him fired. Honestly, how do you go about improving a team when you’re not really sure what you have? “You know, that Game 7 really proved that we need an athletic big man to rebound, run the floor and change shots in the paint — oh, that’s right! We’ve got one. We just didn’t play him.” I’m just thrilled that we devoted Playoff time to resolving the question of whether point guards like Kirk can defend power forwards. Vinny’s learning on the job — at a glacial pace.
wait arent glaciers
really fast or something?
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
Come on global warming
"Ben Gordon is a bundle of muscle and clutch. That's all he's made of. Drink BG7 energy drink, you'll grow a pair of balls on your balls."
We BETTER NOT waste a pick on...
… the second coming of Mark Madsen. That’s our problem now. We have too many “hustlers” and not enough top tier talent in the stable. Hansbrough will help a team that’s already winning and needs front court depth but he’ll do nothing for a team like ours.
by lexdiamonds0730 on May 3, 2009 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions
The whole 2nd half
i kept screaming “Why is Tyrus Thomas not in!”
:::sigh
if we wont use him, trade him….regardless..great season fellas..
"I want the pressure...I want it and I feed off of it. Whenever I get the ball in my hand, I calm down." Air Force One
lemme change that..
good season..great would have been gettin into round 2. Still, the season was way better than I expected
"I want the pressure...I want it and I feed off of it. Whenever I get the ball in my hand, I calm down." Air Force One
Love that photo caption
He really was selling the whole “inexperience” thing last night. Although I don’t think things are nearly as bleak as you made them out to be.
Then this coming week we can move on to the challenge of figuring out and enhancing an entirely mediocre team on the brink of the luxury tax.
It’s a young, likeable team with a great young player. There aren’t many teams in the league that wouldn’t be envious of the Bulls situation. The off season will be challenging, in terms of improving the team via the draft or free agency. But I think most fans realize that the best way for us to improve next year will be from the growth of Derrick Rose rather than bringing in new players. If he takes the next step, next year should be real exciting
"That's a spicy meatball-a!" - Vinny Del Negro
"Aren't many teams in the league that wouldn't be envious of the Bulls situation".
Remember Juiceboxjerry, the same thing could have been said about us 3 years ago and look what we did with it (except for the unbelievable good fortune of having Derrick Rose drop into our laps).
So here’s to hoping we make the most of the situation this time. It should be infinitely easier to do now that we have a TRUE cornerstone to build around and not a faux number 1 player like Deng (whom I hope people now understand it was a mistake to place so much confidence in him becoming a great player).
by lexdiamonds0730 on May 3, 2009 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions
didn't watch TNT this time
wasn’t my choice. What did Doug have to say?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 3, 2009 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Doug spewed crap from his mouth.
Like KD said, he praised VDN’s persistent use of the 4 guard lineup (which allowed Big Baby to have his way with us and made Noah the sole individual responsible for rebounding) and claimed that Hinrich had an excellent game. Noah had to fight 3 other guys in the paint for every rebound. Hinrich made bad passes, tripped over his own feet (and got a foul call for it somehow), and played awful basketball for 3 quarters before finally hitting some shots in the 4th.
Side note: one of your previous posts mentioned VDN only playing Tyrus at the end of games when they’ve already been decided, and he did it again. I swear, that shit (and even play Lindsey Hunter before Tyrus) is gonna do some serious damage to Tyrus’ self-esteem.
Why even write a recap?
You should have just wrote one recap for the entire season. Oh let’s blame every fucking game on Vinny Del Negro. I swear you act like the players are never at fault and that they are just Vinnys puppets and everything that they do bad is Vinnys fault, while everything they do right is in spite of Vinny…
R.I.P. Nick Adenhart
No it IS Viny
or maybe his Dad….
"I can accept failure, but I can't accept not trying." -- Michael Jordan
Well, it is pretty much Vinny's fault.
Either you didn’t watch many games, or you had no idea what was going on when you watched them. That’s pretty clear.
"Vinny continues to act like a crazed arsonist pouring gasoline on our season while running around carrying a torch yelling 'I’m in charge. Don’t any of you foolish knaves try to second guess me. I know gasoline is a liquid but I’m pretty sure it isn’t flammable and the odor gives me a natural high.'" - Tyrusmancrush
Yeah
Like Miller put himself in the game or Tyrus benched himself. How about Miller with 4 guards? Whose choice was that. The players can only do so much with it. If it is totally against their skill set and who they are then they are not going to suddenly be ten years younger (Miller) or grow four inches (Kirk) or miraculously repair a hamstring (Gordon) or suddenly have a real offense to run (Rose) just because Vinny throws them all out there together. You might get lucky now and then when a player individually gets hot (and we have three guys who can do that doing iso) but then you also have gambled on none of them getting hot. And when they are not we have no offense to fall back on and a bunch of guys playing out of position, out of their skill set, out of their game because of injury, or simply benched for no reason.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
Oh i watch the games
Yes i agree Tyrus’ minutes have been ridiculous, but I think its a little ridiculous to blame Vinny for every single loss especially when he uses a 7 man rotation.
R.I.P. Nick Adenhart
if he was a better coach, they'd be a better team
if they were a better team, they’d win more games.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 3, 2009 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yes and No
If he was a better coach in terms of tactics and substitutions they probably would win more games. I really dont think his substitution patterns were that outrageous (including thomas only playing 17 minutes). DEspite the nice stats, I didnt think he was playing well. I do think that Vinny thought he had a 25 year old Brad Miller.
I think vinny is a horrible coach in that why the hell do the bulls have no idea what they are doing on offense or defense when bulls have so much individual talent but thats part of learning curve and completely REinsdorf/Paxson/Foreman’s fault for hiring a rookie coach. The players seem to like vinny for the most part and showed up to almost every game this year (the same cant be said of other mediocre teams or last years bulls team). They were competitive even when they lost for th most part which as a fan I appreciate. Even when they would lose in overtime or collapse in 4th quarter.
I had no idea that a coach could impact games so much...until I followed the
Bulls and Vinny this year.
by KentuckyBullsFan on May 3, 2009 9:21 PM CDT up reply actions
I was watching TT
I thought he was playing great. A couple miscues, but overall solidly.
"Ben Gordon is a bundle of muscle and clutch. That's all he's made of. Drink BG7 energy drink, you'll grow a pair of balls on your balls."
HE is the one using
a 7 man rotation. TiT is good enough to be a rotation player. He should have been used in this series (just not too much)
"I can accept failure, but I can't accept not trying." -- Michael Jordan
Umm we have a crap coach.
1) He failed to foul with a 3 point lead and under a minute to play and avoid Ray Allen in several games.
2) Did not have the players ready to play at home for game 3
3) Did not force the ball out of PPierce’s hand when Ray Allen fouled out in game 5 when it was apparent that PP was the only capable of carrying their offense down the stretch.
4)Failed to attack Rondo in game 2 when he was running on a gimpy ankle.
5)Failed to run any kind of a play coming out of time outs or in crucial end games situations other than setting up ISOs for individual players.
6)Left a 4 guard up on the floor watched the weaksider defender route over and try to defend BigBaby and Perkins on Pick and rolls when Noah/Miller our only big on the floor got screened. How many times did Rose or Kirk get stuck rotating over to a big 5 feet from the basket only to foul as they made a layup?
7) Completely mismanaged time outs in several games.
Some of these games should have been won decisively by the Bulls had we had a real coach. I am convinced the Bulls should have won this series 4-1. If we had a better coach we may not have blow so many 4th quarter leads.
"If you're not going to compete, then I'll dominate you." MJ
Amen brother! It is pretty much Vinny's fault.
Either he is incapable of thinking on his feet or he is trying to process so much data because he has no experience to draw from that he really can’t make a rational decision in real time. That’s why he always depends on veterans regardless of how they’re performing.
He is truly an incompetent nincompoop who was 98% responsible for not getting the Bulls to the 2nd round and that’s with giving him the benefit of the doubt. Paxson should be tarred and feathered if he brings this train wreck back next year.
If you can't answer a man's arguments, all is not lost. You can still call him vile names.
Elbert Hubbard
by Tyrusmancrush on May 4, 2009 12:59 AM CDT up reply actions
pretty much.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 3, 2009 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Coming Soon...
"I want the pressure...I want it and I feed off of it. Whenever I get the ball in my hand, I calm down." Air Force One
FIRE VINNIE
inexcusable not playing TT.
Sometimes a player's greatest challenge is coming to grips with his role on the team.
-- Scottie Pippen
by Orlando Woolridge on May 3, 2009 1:21 PM CDT reply actions
Now that the white hot rage has subsided,
these are the three images from game seven that linger in my mind:
(1) Ben Gordon taking that ill-advised three pointer in transition when the Bulls were down by three in the fourth quarter. It was partially blocked. That was the most critical possession of the entire game;
(2) Eddie House running his mouth. It infuriates me that such a great series was decided by a raggedy scrub who happened to have a good shooting day;
(3) Noah hanging his head after fouling out.
We should have won this series. We gave it away with extraordinarily poor play late in games two and five.
I have no faith that management will assemble a better squad during the offseason.
I hope Derrick Rose works really hard to improve over the summer. He is our only hope.
"We're gonna hire a motherf*cking coach with NO experience? Not as an NBA head coach, not as an NBA assistant, not as an assistant’s assistant, not as a college coach, not as a high school coach, not as f*cking grade school coach, not as a coach of the Lovabulls, not as a coach of the towel boys, not even as a coach of a dynasty on Playstation. Nothing. Really? Really, Pax?" - 1958ChiTown's Initial Reaction to the Hiring of Vinny Del Negro, posted on June 7, 2008 at 2:41 PM.
ben maks that rise up three pointer in transition most of the time
i bet it was gonna go in, but ray allen saw it coming,
by Gen on May 3, 2009 1:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Slam on Funky King?
"Whoever was responsible for pulling that offer [to Ben Gordon] off the table...bring him before me and I'll punch him right in the face " - Frederick Pfeiffer
by Granny Waiters on May 3, 2009 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions
The reason i thought it was a bad shot
was cuz it was hero shot, which is something they didnt need at the time. Down by 3, you have momentum going your way, your making a run, you just played terrific defense two posessions in a row, ben gordon runs down the court and takes a shot while most of the team is still trying to catch up to him, and he is defended. Any momentum we had going went down the drain after that shot, the next posession ben gordon fouls i believe pierce, and we never got that close again. Its not that ben gordon shouldnt have gotten a shot off, its just that before that shot they were starting to play as a team, they werent running anything special but they were at least moving the ball betwen two or three players. I think the biggest reason we lost isnt cuz tyrus was in the game, or eddie house was on fire, it was because we had a 7 min drought, and everyone got scared and everyone wanted to keep that from happening again. So it wasnt “Selfish” play, it was guys taking it upon themselves to score the ball (gordon, salmons, and yes even rose were the biggest perps, miller had a moment or two, hinrich did most of his bad shooting in the first half so he didnt even bother being the hero)…after that shot i think salmons did one of his, ill hold the ball for 8 seconds and then try to do something myself, and rose had one himself. By that time so much time had expired that gordon was force fed the ball to get something done but it was already too late….
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
I have NO problem with Gordon taking that shot.
It was partially blocked, but I don’t mind that shot because Gordon is the ONE home run hitter we have. If he makes that shot, I firmly believe that would have scared the shit out of the Celtics, shut the crowd up, and pushed us to victory. In the game of basketball, you can’t always do that “safe” thing. Sometimes you gotta take chances and that’s what that shot was all about. Until we get someone else as cold blooded as Gordon, there is NO WAY we can let this guy go.
EVERY championship team you have ever seen has a cold-blooded guy on the team. He may be the star or he may be a reserve….but he’s there. If we can acquire a great frontcourt option, I can see Gordon being a 3rd option on this team and as such it’d be very difficult for the opposition to pay too much attention to Rose or that post option because if they do then Gordon (as the 3rd option) would make them pay (much the way you can’t double Pierce if Ray Allen is on the court).
by lexdiamonds0730 on May 3, 2009 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree.
"Vinny continues to act like a crazed arsonist pouring gasoline on our season while running around carrying a torch yelling 'I’m in charge. Don’t any of you foolish knaves try to second guess me. I know gasoline is a liquid but I’m pretty sure it isn’t flammable and the odor gives me a natural high.'" - Tyrusmancrush
I don't
yes, championship teams need a cold blooded assassin, but assisins must be silent..as well as deadly. After all..that is the ninja way. Ben Gordon eating 3/4 of the clock..now that’s bad kung-fu
"I want the pressure...I want it and I feed off of it. Whenever I get the ball in my hand, I calm down." Air Force One
by Belize on May 3, 2009 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
someone
had used a baseball analogy earlier to describe ben gordon’s offense. The type that swings at everything and has no idea where the strike zone is and strikes out a lot but still has a high on base percentage and hits home runs and bats for a high average.
Sort of like Vladimir guerrero.
wasn't he a mvp candidate?
Vlad, that is…
anyway, I’d have him on any baseball team of mine…
The heart has its reasons of which reason knows nothing.
Blaise Pascal, Bulls Fan
I will really enjoy
watching the celtics-magic series, and watching that ridiculous human machine Dwight Howard just abuse Big Baby and “the foul machine” Kendick Perkins
Best part of series….. when “jackie moon” scalabrine has to guard Howard as some point… its just gonna be embarrassing, but funny
by Chisportfan on May 3, 2009 1:42 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
KD eviscerated Vinny in his newest Behind the Boxscore:
A sampling:
One through eight, you can’t tell me that Boston is more talented than Chicago. And you can’t tell me that it was Boston’s “championship pedigree” or “veteran savvy” that was tossing in baskets in the paint while Derrick Rose or Ben Gordon helplessly tried to cover the role that a power forward should be covering. I picked Boston in seven to begin this series, but that was only because I expected Chicago — the more talented basketball team — to suffer because of the whims of their coaching staff. I’m being completely honest. I had no faith in that crew. And I turned out to be right. And I hate it.
…snip…
So, this seems like the easiest analysis in the world, because it is. “The coach is a bum.” Real groundbreaking. But I’d be lying to you if I wrote about anything different, this morning.
Read the rest here
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on May 3, 2009 1:48 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, Matt linked to it in the first post.
Pretty fucking fantastic article by Dwyer. Dude is awesome.
"Vinny continues to act like a crazed arsonist pouring gasoline on our season while running around carrying a torch yelling 'I’m in charge. Don’t any of you foolish knaves try to second guess me. I know gasoline is a liquid but I’m pretty sure it isn’t flammable and the odor gives me a natural high.'" - Tyrusmancrush
oh man..
Why? Because Vinny Del Negro could not think on his feet, adapt, and put his team in a position to win.
God get someone in here who can coach please Mr. Forman.
It is mind-boggling that Rose has to deal with this for the next two years probably.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
You know....in a strange way, maybe this year worked out perfectly for DRose.
Of course, my comment assumes we either replace VDN in the offseason or VDN really will improve next season.
In effect, not having a system on offense (was what we saw a version of the dribble drive?) or defense (switch on everything) and forcing the guys to improvise on the floor will give DRose enough material to understand where he needs to improve. A “better” coach might have cut into his minutes because of his defensive deficiencies or devised a plan to protect (instead of expose) him on that end. He obviously recognizes this is an area where he needs to improve and living through the negatives might be better motivation for him. I was impressed with his confidence in his jump shot (he work on range later) and expect turnovers will be down next year while the defense will be improved. On the latter, I feel his problems are primarily related to pick/roll defense as opposed to just not being able to keep an offensive player in front of him. As a result, he can easily be taught how to play pick against the pick/roll. In fact, he’d be wise to spend time with Kirk in the offseason.
"Some people want it to happen, some wish it would happen, others make it happen." - Michael Jordan
yeah, it made my recap even crappier
Dwyer nailed it
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 3, 2009 2:51 PM CDT up reply actions
no shame in that
Dwyer is absolutely fantastic.
"Vinny continues to act like a crazed arsonist pouring gasoline on our season while running around carrying a torch yelling 'I’m in charge. Don’t any of you foolish knaves try to second guess me. I know gasoline is a liquid but I’m pretty sure it isn’t flammable and the odor gives me a natural high.'" - Tyrusmancrush
woops, my fault, Matt, didn't mean to step on your article- I didn't bother to click on the link in the story
my bad.
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on May 3, 2009 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions
Let me tell you why the Bulls REALLY lost.
The Bulls gave up at least 10 baskets per game by playing TERRIBLE defense on that screen and roll action that Boston went to constantly. They got easy baskets and CONSTANT mismatches when they ran that action. Until the Bulls learn to defend that or stop switching and start fighting through the screens, that action will continue to kill them.
I don’t really have a problem with anything that went on offensively. On that side of the court the Bulls did enough to win every game except game 3. But that screen/roll was the Bulls Kryponite and that did them in.
It would have helped if the Celtics were forced to use legal screens.
There is only so much you can do to fight through illegal screens and switching is good in theory, but when it instigates a horrible mismatch that will still hurt us too. Improving defense is a must for us over the off season, but when it comes to the Celtics I doubt we can do more than break even on that subject.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
The Infuriated Infant's "pick" on Ben Gordon (that set up a lefty drive for Ray Allen in the first half)
might have been the most illegal screen in basketball history. Just kept moving and relocated him like a tackling sled in football.
-sw
The best of the 2008-09 Boston Celtics is still yet to come. Believe.
by Steve Weinman on May 3, 2009 4:54 PM CDT up reply actions
LOL
We don’t have guys built for that kind of sport on our team. Certainly not Gordon, Rose, or Kirk. That’s why I am not too upset for their failure to get through screens well. I don’t think there is a harder team than the Celtics when it comes to screens. I am just hoping I don’t have to watch an other playoff series between the two. Stuff like that really gets to me, especially since we have some beanpoles for our big men so we can’t even do reciprocal (or we do something stupid and have Salmons play PF and set picks…ARG).
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
Trust me, it gets to me, too...when our players do it...
…because it short-circuits offensive possessions when a legal screen will do just fine. I realize it’s even more frustrating to see the Celts get away with it as an opponent – but for a lot of the year (haven’t checked recently), the Celts led the league in offensive fouls, due in no small part to the issues Perk and the Infant had staying set on screens (KG played his part, too). Once Mikki came to town, he got into the act as well, which is no shock.
It’s really a shame (in only this one regard) you folks didn’t get to see more Mikki – I think you’re insulting him by calling Perk the “human foul machine.”
-sw
The best of the 2008-09 Boston Celtics is still yet to come. Believe.
by Steve Weinman on May 3, 2009 5:20 PM CDT up reply actions
When he was with NJ,
it seemed like Mikki Moore would play 79 crap games and 3 very good games against the Bulls. We have seen enough of that.
"Whoever was responsible for pulling that offer [to Ben Gordon] off the table...bring him before me and I'll punch him right in the face " - Frederick Pfeiffer
by Granny Waiters on May 3, 2009 7:13 PM CDT up reply actions
He had one good season in NJ and did that to everyone
He also had Jason Kidd as his point guard, who has gotten a long list of athletic PFs paid.
it also helps when brad miller isnt the guy
trying to defend that screen roll.
which comes back to coaching.... right?
Vinny...you look confused
OT
I just watched Haslem get ejected with a F2 in the Heat/Hawks game for doing a variation of what Rondo did to Miller. Only he got more shoulder and didn’t cause the guy to get stitches and was at least a foot closer to the ball. What a joke, NBA. Haslem just thought that was a good playoff foul.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
My rant
This season ended on VDN’s terms. Not John Paxson’s. Not even the players terms.
Most of this series we were blessed to see some of the players natural talent bail out VDN’s horrid coaching job. Let’s point out some of the obvious blunders . .
- The most “I don’t give a fuck about defense” that my eyes have ever seen. Most notably the defensive switches.
- The lucrative substitution patterns. Especially in this series. When people kept mentioning ways that the Bulls could actually steal game 7 away from the champs, I noticed was it was the Bulls fresh young legs that got more mention than most other reasons. I doubt they were just referring to Rose.
When I saw the line up of Miller, Salmons, Hinrich, Gordon and Rose for most of the second half, I pretty most lost all hope on the game and of course the season. The idea of Miller as the only big man out there pretty much gave our game plan away. The Celtics saw this and clearly thought, “Well, that’s great if all they care about is scoring. We have a pretty nice lead. As long as we score our share of points, rebound anytime we want . . . and get to the line anytime we want, we should be fine. Oh and as long as we know that once we blow past any guard the Bulls throw at us, we should be fine considering Brad Miller is all they’ll have left in their line of defense.”
- Tyrus Thomas. Oh Tyrus. I honestly wouldn’t be bothered if he demanded to be traded sometime between now and next years trading deadline. It’s not that I lost faith in him. Because in all reality, I have a whole lotta faith in him. It’s because I finally realize that no matter what he does good for this team, they would much rather focus on the bad. I just wish they looked at Tyrus the same way they looked at Brad. As much as a liability Tyrus is out there with a dumb mistake here and there, Brad Miller is worse of a risk with his constant defensive mishaps and slow self.
You also have to think that (gasp) VDN will be here at least one more year and if he continues to sit Tyrus in crucial times, we might as well try to get something for him now instead of him walking away for nothing as well. I seem to remember when Skiles first succeeded as Bulls coach, Paxson went all out to surround him with Skiles-type players. I really don’t want Paxson doing the same thing here with VDN. The last thing I wanna hear after the draft or free agency is Pax saying something along the lines of, “He fits into the style that coach VDN and I wanna do.” That’s like pretty much saying, “He’ll listen to whatever we have to say and play his role when needed no matter how much talent he has.”
- The saddest thing about most of this season is that I honestly don’t see that many players from this past year contributing to the future of this teams success. I’m not saying they shouldn’t but the way it looks, they just won’t have a shot.
I honestly believe that the only players safe on this roster is Derrick Rose and Joakim Noah.
Some can make an argument for Deng but after seeing what Salmons has done for this team, it wouldn’t shock me to hear his name floating around trade rumors for the next couple years.
I have a hard time looking at this past season cause to me, all I see is Rose and Noah. It sucks when you have no idea where your team is headed cause you can’t appreciate the growth of the players you’ve had the pleasure of seeing over the last year in particular.
- Last, I’m ready for the summer. The best times to read about your favorite team are around the times they’re most likely to make changes. The time leading up to the trading deadline or anytime around free agency and draft . . . those are the times that every article you read about your team don’t look like the exact same piece. How many times do you read the Tribune and the headline says something along the likes of, “Thomas, finally blossoming under new coach” and then going to the Sun Times site to read, “VDN brings out the best in the Bulls’ Tyrus Thomas.”
Let’s face it, every article is pretty much an exact replica of one you’ve read before. At least now, we’ll have some fresh new perspective on how to turn things around for the better. We’ll get to see new and fresher trade ideas, mock drafts and etc . . .
Or where BG is headed to next.
Heck, who knows . . . maybe that Kobe Bryant rumor comes back again considering this is that year he’s allowed to walk away from LA if he chose to.
I mean I doubt it but a pretty embarrassing series to the Cavs might be the trigger that was needed for him to realize that he’s gonna need young and talented legs around him if he has any chance at all left to get a ring without Shaq on his side. I mean let’s face it, LeBron is gonna get better and the Lakers and Kobe . . . . well, they’re just gonna get old.
Ughh, why have I already started speculating on the impossible . . .
Cause the year is over and that’s what we usually do in the off season?
Let the rumors begin . . .
by Option27 on May 3, 2009 2:57 PM CDT reply actions 2 recs
I seem to remember when Skiles first succeeded as Bulls coach, Paxson went all out to surround him with Skiles-type players. I really don’t want Paxson doing the same thing here with VDN. The last thing I wanna hear after the draft or free agency is Pax saying something along the lines of, "He fits into the style that coach VDN and I wanna do." That’s like pretty much saying, "He’ll listen to whatever we have to say and play his role when needed no matter how much talent he has."
Ya, dont want that either
"I want the pressure...I want it and I feed off of it. Whenever I get the ball in my hand, I calm down." Air Force One
The Lakers aren't young and talented?
Come on.
"I've hacked into your brain. You're throwing a party and no one's showing up."
not really.
Kobe is getting older? Bynum is really their only young talented player. They’re not old but they’re not young.
I think it is a done deal.
Everyone has been saying he is going to opt out at this point:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/164531-boozer-opts-out-according-to-utah-radio-station
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
watch we get boozer
and then he’ll keep luol company(talking about those old duke days) on the bench while theyre both injured the whole season.
I remember Michael dribbling at the top of the key. Everybody knew to just get the hell out of his way. - Steve Kerr
two words why we cant get boozer
salary. cap. it’d have to be in a sign and trade.
sign and trade
bg for boozer. think it helps out both teams alot actually.
by The90sBullsRevival on May 3, 2009 4:44 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't think it helps us out at all
That’s all we need is Elton Brand the sequel.
"That's a spicy meatball-a!" - Vinny Del Negro
by Juiceboxjerry on May 3, 2009 6:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Elton brand
minus the injuries, is exactly what this team is missing. Someone to throw the ball to for easy shots, draw double teams and leave open shooters.
by The90sBullsRevival on May 3, 2009 6:18 PM CDT up reply actions
so does deng but we gave him, what, 72 mil?
we could try to hold out for bosh or amare (also injury prone), but we’ve needed a guy who can score in the paint since curry left
by The90sBullsRevival on May 3, 2009 8:30 PM CDT up reply actions
So....I might be totally missing on your Luol argument....
Are you suggesting it doesn’t matter that he’s injury prone because he can score inside? Or are you suggesting that it doesn’t matter if we sign him because we already gave 12 million a year to an injury prone player and that set a precedent?
"Worker bees can leave.
Even drones can fly away.
The Queen is their slave."
I agree fully. The Celtics are a very average team without KG, Powe, with Pierce playing hurt and Rondo playing hurt… giving heavy minutes to nobodies like Scalabrine and the 2nd year 2nd round fatass.. neither of which were a part of our playoff push last year. Absolutely… very average team. Frankly you guys should have won this series and the only thing you can really say is that the Chicago coaches and players choked it away.
It made for an entertaining series for casual NBA and Bulls fans… and you guys won your 3 games by a combined 6 points in 6 overtimes…. but frankly the Celtics are a mediocre team without their best player. I’m not sure why anyone would expect more from Boston sans-KG than anyone would expect from the Spurs without Duncan. It’s moronic. KG anchors Boston’s entire Championship defense. Without him, they are a vulnerable team that can get lit up for tons of points. With him… this series would have been an easy sweep and a non-story.
Chicago is damn good, though. They outplayed Boston (without KG) over the last two months of the season. A full year with Salmons and miller and that team will win a heck of a lot more games. They just didn’t have the will to survive that the broken champions did.
Pierce is hurt? I thought he was just old.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
Chicago’s own Sam Smith wrote an article that claimed Pierce was playing with busted knees and not telling anyone. I’ve been hearing his back is bothering him as well. He clearly isn’t the player he normally is. He’s slow… not penetrating much… that Noah dunk showed you everything you needed to know about Pierce. He lost the ball… then couldn’t catch up to Noah. There is definitely something bothering him, but he’s fighting through it.
no, they asked smith about that live the other day before game 5 and he said he just made it up...
he laughed, and said it’s just what he’s guessing since pierce looked “disinterested” to him. then after pierce had a great game 5, smith said “nevermind.”
that’s what smith does… if there isn’t a story, or he thinks there should be one, he embellishes or fabricates. always a good read, as long as you know his tendencies.
Hurt or not, I don't know
but I think it’s fair to say he’s exhausted. That sixth game was his third straight playing 50-plus minutes, and the unmitigated disaster that was this season’s bench (or lack thereof) cost Doc the wing depth to get PP more rest during the season.
-sw
The best of the 2008-09 Boston Celtics is still yet to come. Believe.
by Steve Weinman on May 3, 2009 4:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Pierce playing hurt??
Honestly that was the first time that I’ve heard that…out of anybody. What was his supposed injury?
http://awsomepeoplesearch.com/
From Sam Smith on April 23rd:
“Yes, this guy wearing Pierce’s jersey is averaging 20.1 points in the series tied 1-1 with Game 3 at the United Center Thursday.
But he’s been relatively uninvolved.
He can’t seem to get separation on his move to create space and seems to have little lift on his shot. He doesn’t seem to have any explosion to the basket and seems to avoid playing in the middle of the floor where he’s most dangerous.
I think Pierce is hurt.
I ran that by an NBA guy and he agreed that it sure looked like it"
He hasn’t looked right in a while. I don’t think it’s age.
ha! You're using Sam as your "source"??
WE don’t even do that over here! Come on man…Pierce wasn’t injured…not even hurt (there is a difference). He was just getting outworked for whatever reason.
http://awsomepeoplesearch.com/
the Celtics blogs have been speculating for weeks (prior to the series) that there was something wrong with Pierce. I could link you to those, but I figured you’d listen to your own guy more than you’d listen to the Boston collective.
not really
Personally, I’d listen to your Celtics blogs first, as opposed to Sam “I Love To Make Up Random Things” Smith
http://awsomepeoplesearch.com/
fair enough. Personally I think there is something wrong with him for all the same reason Smith mentions. Either he’s burned out from trying to carry the load late in the season without KG… or he’s got some lingering injury that is bothering him. He fought through it and made some big shots… but in general he looked several steps slower than he did a month ago.
The point is… it was a hard-fought series. But I’m onboard with this post calling Boston an “average” team. Absolutely they are an “average” team. The only difference between our 2007 24 win team and this team is that you remove Delonte West, Al Jefferson and Wally Z… and you replace them with Ray Allen, Eddie House and Glen Davis. It’s a wash, if you ask me. Bulls were playing against roughly a 24 win team.
interesting...
…I’d much rather have Allen, House, and Davis ANY day over West, Jefferson, and Wally. Doesn’t seem like a wash to me, but I concede…you know your team WAY more than I do.
To clarify something…I DO listen to Sam on Bulls insider type of info…but just not for any other team’s info.
As far as Pierce goes…I think you hit it on the head with burned out. I’d go with that before I say that he was hurt or injured. As much as NBA players say that they don’t get tired, it’s a lie.
http://awsomepeoplesearch.com/
Allen: 18 points, 3 rebounds, 3 assists
House: 8 points, 2 rebounds 1 assist
Davis: 7 points, 4 rebounds
Mikki: 5 points 4 rebounds
For:
Delonte: 12 points, 3 rebounds, 3 assists
Al Jefferson: 23 points, 11 rebounds, 2 blocks
Powe: 8 points, 5 rebounds
Wally: 7 points 3 rebounds
Really you think you’re better off with group 1? I think it’s pretty much a wash. Basically this Boston squad as constructed in this series isn’t that much better than the 24 win Boston team.
Wow, awful statistical analysis
…you fail to take into account the development of Rondo that has occured in Delonte’s absence. Similarly, you take Davis’s statistics from the regular season when he played much better in the postseason (18 points 7 rebounds in postseason.) If you’re counting at home, thats greater than the combined output of his and Powe’s statistics for the regular season. Jefferson wasn’t close to 23 and 11 in ’06. Moreover, Pierce was “injured” for a lot of that season so that they could get a low draft pick.
So…
09 07
Developed Perkins >>> Raw Perkins
Developed Rondo >> Raw Rondo+Delonte
Ray Allen >>> Wally
Glen Davis << Developing Al Jefferson+(barely used)Powe
Paul Pierce >> “injured” Paul Pierce
Really? These two teams are that similar?
"Worker bees can leave.
Even drones can fly away.
The Queen is their slave."
Rondo and Perkins are a lot better than they were then.
Jefferson was atrocious defensively and gave up as much as got offensively. The talent may level may not be much different, but the ability of the players to capitalize on that talent is a lot better. This wasn’t a very good Celtics team, but it was significantly better than 24 wins.
Keep it classy, Larry.
Represent.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on May 3, 2009 4:33 PM CDT up reply actions
if theres anything the C’s showed in this series, its why they are not just an average team. Are they an excellent team with all the injuries? no. But both the bulls and c’s showed why they are above average in an extremely intense matchup where players from both sides did amazing things. Look at the C’s round 1 last year. Everyone thought the hawks were a joke, and when they took it to a 7 game series, everyone thought the C’s were totally done and just “average”. But we know how that turned out, and now look at the hawks. You just never know for sure.
Last year we all thought
the Celtics were out of gas in the first round. Not average. Not after that season they posted. We just thought their old man legs wouldn’t make it. This year they once again look old but now also without KG who is actually old (more millage than a normal guy his age).
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
Celtics just weren’t taking Atlanta serious. In the 4 games we won, we won by margins of: 23 points, 19 points, 25 points and 34 points. People overrate how tough Atlanta was. They won at home, because Boston didn’t bring it. Not the same as this Chicago series. The Bulls were a better more talented team and Boston gutted out a big upset with what was left of their broken squad in a 7 game slugfest. The only thing remaining from the 2008 Championship team is their heart.
And 4/5 of their starters
"Ben Gordon is a bundle of muscle and clutch. That's all he's made of. Drink BG7 energy drink, you'll grow a pair of balls on your balls."
The Bulls were also missing a starter (Deng) who plays defense well on Pierce,
and whose superior rebounding to Salmons would have keep Boston from having a ridiculous number of offensive rebounds.
"Whoever was responsible for pulling that offer [to Ben Gordon] off the table...bring him before me and I'll punch him right in the face " - Frederick Pfeiffer
by Granny Waiters on May 4, 2009 11:58 PM CDT up reply actions
wtf?
They just didn’t have the will to survive that the broken champions did.
I guess I disagree I think your team played dirty all series and got away with murder.
by SoulEater7 on May 3, 2009 4:13 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
debatable. Noah and Miller got their payback on Rondo in the 7th game. However, I don’t blame Bulls fans for thinking that. We played a lot dirtier when James Posey was a part of the team.
If you're referring to Miller's foul on Rondo on that take to the rim in transition as "payback,"
I think you’re stretching it. While he got him up high, I think the hit looked worse than it was because of the timing of Rondo’s jump, where the players were positioned and the fact that he leaned in toward Miller (who was providing the help) as he tried to get around his man.
Noah’s play, I could have done without. That said, Bulls fans could probably have done without Rondo’s shot on Miller in Game 5 or his throwing Hinrich into the scorer’s table in Game 6.
-sw
The best of the 2008-09 Boston Celtics is still yet to come. Believe.
by Steve Weinman on May 3, 2009 5:01 PM CDT up reply actions
he looks like a transsexual
not that anything’s wrong with either. I fully support Rondo’s striking feminine features.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 3, 2009 4:24 PM CDT up reply actions
slightly off topic… I have it on high authority that Chauncey Billups is legitimately homosexual and that might be part of the reason Boston got rid of him so early into his rookie season. If Rondo were gay, we probably wouldn’t know either way. There are several gay players in the NBA… it’s just not spoken about.
But yeah… if Rondo were actually gay… does that make getting Rondo’d any less devastating… or does it hurt more?
Nobody cares about Rondo's sexuality;
it’s beside the point.
For instance: heterosexual, homosexual or bi, you’re still a fairly uninspired troll, trying to eke a little more pleasure out of a victory by antagonizing folks who are already down. In other words, while we might be fans of a losing team, you’re actually fairly low on the moral cladogram.
Enjoy your victory. With Celtics fans. You know there’s a blog for that, right?
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on May 3, 2009 4:54 PM CDT up reply actions
nah MPG… you got me all wrong. I understand Bulls fans think Rondo had a flagrant foul and they should have won. I understand Bulls fans feel like they had a better team. And I’m just agreeing. There is very little difference between the 2007 Celtics team that won 24 games and this 2009 Celtics team that gutted out a huge upset over Chicago. As for Rondo… he just gave them a punchers chance of winning … and if you want to take that Brad Miller “flagrant” as that literal “punch”, I’m with you.
I doubt that I have you wrong.
Because I know you realize that Bulls fans are hurting. It’s phrases like “or does it hurt more?” that are salt in the wound. And the simple fact that you’re here, talking about the the Bulls lack of “will”, adding that the Bulls “choked it away”…come on. And now you’re painting the Celtics victory as “gutting out an upset?” ESPN’s analysts unanimously picked the Celtics. Some even predicted a sweep. Gutty? Hell yes. Upset? By no means whatsoever.
Further, I simply don’t agree with you in regard to the comparison to the 2007 team. This team – even without Garnett – has two hall of famers and an allstar (Rondo). Perkins might be the third best center in the East. And their record post-injury was pretty damn impressive.
Lastly, I don’t care that you guys occasionally played a little dirty. They’re vets, they’re smart, and they won – this series and against the Lakers – in part because they understand how rules can be bent. It’s an art and, like it or not, part of the game. But it pisses me off that Celtics fans have denied and whined and pretended that it’s not the case. You can’t have it both ways. And still be honest, that is.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on May 3, 2009 5:40 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
ESPN analysts also unanimously picked the Lakers to beat the Celtics in 6 games last year. Clearly they don’t know what the hell they are talking about. I thought the Bulls were going to sweep this series and I was very surprised to see an undermanned beaten Celtic team gut out a huge upset.
I’m not trying to rub salt in the wounds. I just think it’s mildly amusing that Bulls fans screamed at the tippy top of their lungs about “dirty play” when they had Dennis Rodman for 3 championships… or “star favoritism” regarding Rondo when they won 6 championships with MIchael Jordan. It was the same reason I thought it was funny when Lakers fans thought certain finals games were “fixed” last year… within the same decade of the Lakers/Kings series and three titles where Shaq was able pound the heck out of defenders down low without getting any offensive fouls. Maybe you have a valid point about “dirty play” and “star favoritism”, but it’s just silly for Bulls, Celtics or Lakers fans to whine about anything.
Also… I think you guys are oddly down on your team for no reason. Whoever writes this blog seems to think very little of his own squad and that’s a bit bizarre considering this is the best Bulls team you’ve ever had since Jordan wrapped up his 6th title. You guys had a fantastic team this year. You probably should have won this series. Why do you act like your team post Salmon/Miller trades isn’t a 50+ win team? You would have easily been a top 4 seed in the East with this team. You are incredibly deep with tons of talented, athletic, quick, skilled players… a guy who is going to surpass Chris Paul… and one unbelievably clutch Ben Gordon. You should be extremely happy with your team.
Well,
you’re right: Bulls fans can’t complain about favoritism, considering the years of Jordan treatment. Hopefully the calls on Derrick will even out next year when he gets a little older and savvier with respect to accentuating contact…even though i have mixed feelings about that. The truth is, the Bulls were a frustrating team this year – poorly coached and with a lopsided roster. Talented? Sure. But this was a frustrating year for a lot of fans. I hope the experience was worth it for Vinny.
Anyway, good luck next round – sincerely. I really do want to see a Cavs/Celtics rematch, and hopefully KG will be ready by that point.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on May 3, 2009 8:12 PM CDT up reply actions
I believe the phrase
“tranny elf” was bandied about RealGM.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on May 3, 2009 4:34 PM CDT up reply actions
he looks like
Poppa Doc from 8 Mile.
"..what you mean? I'm a legend like Kareem!"
by CommittedToExcellence on May 4, 2009 1:40 AM CDT up reply actions
Controversial Claims - I'm going to make a couple of them
1. The game was not decided by the Bulls utter refusal to play Tyrus or to go big in the 4th quarter.
- OK, seems hard to justify, doesn’t it? We had difficulties on the boards, we had our top two bigs in foul trouble, and we played Lindsay Lee Hunter (how come they keep dropping his middle name like he’s an assassin or serial killer?) over Tyrus. Yes, that’s silly, but that’s when we actually brought the game closer.
- Tyrus didn’t play that well.
- And finally, ask yourself this question. Who do you pull to put Tyrus in, if the goal is to come back, play at a “normal” size, and leave Miller or Noah on the floor too? Your choices are Derrick Rose, Ben Gordon, Kirk Hinrich and John Salmons. In the specific context of this game, in which the opposition was Pierce, House, Allen, and Rondo (figure our biggest guy takes Perkins).
See what I’m getting at here? In the specific context of this game, with Kirk playing well and Salmons not, I suppose you’d have to go with taking Salmons out (since he wasn’t doing much offensively) and playing Tyrus on Pierce or Allen. Does that strike anyone as a grand idea? Not me, especially given that Tyrus hadn’t played much that way the entire series.
Offensively, I’m not sure what we create with that either because in the abstract I’d certainly prefer Salmons taking a shot to Tyrus.
So on the whole… I think the Bulls were probably playing their 5 best players. They actually cut in to the lead and made it a game playing that way, they just didn’t get any of the theatrical and manufactured shots from BG, Salmons or Rose that the needed at the end.
My solution:
- Somehow they need to turn some combination of Tyrus+picks+your choice of Kirk/Deng/Salmons into a top notch big man and keep the rest. If you’re out there with Rose (plus experience), Gordon, one of Deng/Salmons/Kirk, Chris Bosh/Amare/etc and one of Miller/Noah… I think you win this game with a 4th quarter comeback.
If I were Gar Paxson, that’s what I’d be selling hard to Jerry Reinsdorf to get him to pony up. If we can get the truly special big, this team could be a contender. Without… we’re too many pieces that don’t fit well enough together.
- Alternate solution… if you’re a believer in Deng (I am, I’m just not a believer in Deng’s health), then Deng at the 4 in that lineup looks a lot better than Salmons at the 4 in that lineup. I think if Deng’s healthy, he’s out there on the floor and either Kirk (who played really well) or Salmons (who didn’t) is on the bench. Maybe we come back and win that way. I think I still prefer a to give up more and get a guy like Bosh, but it’s a start to be fully healthy.
2. This game was lost in the second quarter with a properly sized lineup out there.
- The 22-2 blast the Celtics laid on us to end the second quarter came consistently against every lineup we could through out there. We had two out of three of Noah/Miller/Tyrus out there at all times. With the smaller guys, the only guy we didn’t pull was Rose (who did not have a good stretch, to say the least). We tried Rose/Gordon/Hinrich, Rose/Gordon/Salmons, Rose/Hinrich/Salmons, and continued to lose ground in every case.
- My main observation is that the NBA is very often a game of runs, and despite every combination we could neither score nor stop, and thus we couldn’t stop the runs. The problem was we could never get on a real run of our own later.
- Some of that starts with Rose, who was pretty manhandled during this period and also shot 0-5, when he was the only common element in the whole sorry quarter. Some starts up front with the big guys that we have totally not dominating what ought to have been inferior competition.
This isn’t to say Vinnie should be coach of the year or anything. He sure as hell isn’t. What I am saying is that in the end, the loss was directly attributable to the fact that we have a very talented but still rookie PG, and, we got shellacked in the second Q and couldn’t stop them, and (for the first time and only time in the 6 games it mattered) couldn’t get enough buckets in the forth Q (which, if you’re keeping score, means we did quite well at that in 5 of 6 games).
"the loss was directly attributable to the fact that we have a very talented but still rookie PG"
Really? Why? Rondo was basically in check, so I don’t think it was his admittedly weak defense. Was it the turnovers? He had 3 yesterday, which is not awful.
The only way to pin this on Rose being a rookie is that he probably should have taken the ball to the rack every possession for the last 8 minutes of the second quarter. But he’s too deferential to that as a rookie apparently.
But he shouldn’t have to do that. The problem is Bulls offense is crap. Whether or not it is VDN, in the half-court they usually look like they don’t know what to do except iso. Sometimes they hit Gordon on Hinrich off a screen, and that’s the only time they look like they have a scheme. Over an entire game they manage to score a decent number of points anyway because Gordon, Salmons, and Rose have significant individual skills.
by hitlesswonder on May 3, 2009 7:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes
Because Rose went 0-5 in the second quarter. With no assists and a TO. In the forth he went 0-1 shooting with 1 assist.
As you said, Rose has significant individual skills. Even outside the “offense”. But last night he didn’t display any of them when we needed him to.
That’s understandable. He’s a rookie, it was a monumentally tough situation, and I expect he’ll grow and improve.
The larger point is that this is the sort of lump you take by making the commitment to a guy like him. He’ll get better. I don’t “blame” him for not playing well and i don’t blame the coaches for having him on the floor. That’s the way I and I think everyone else wants it.
I’m just saying we have to accept it for what it is, understand it, and move forward.
No
I think it’s wrong to say Rose being a rookie was anywhere close to a significant reason the Bulls lost. If you want to pick a major reason, Boston shot 53% from 3 while the Bulls shot something like 25% from 3. The first part of that is directly attributable to abysmal defense by the the Bulls and Derrick wasn’t on House and Scalabrine (actually, given the idiotic switches they employ maybe he was).
I simply don’t think “veteran savvy” at the PG would have averted the loss — Hinrich at point would not have made a meaningful impact.
We’ll simply have to disagree
by hitlesswonder on May 3, 2009 11:14 PM CDT up reply actions
30+ assists in two games is not "in check"
I don’t have a problem with much of what was said here—-but just because Rondo was not scoring does not mean that he wasn’t making a huge contribution. Despite tailing off in the last two games he was still clearly the best performer (literally and figuratively I guess after Noah’s foul) on the court throughout the entire series. By a ton.
We (or at least I) was talking about game 7, not the last 2 games combined
Rondo had 11 assists but was 2 for 8 with 7 points and 5 rebounds and 4 turnovers (more than Rose, even). The assists are nice, and I wouldn’t say he had a bad game but it was not a great game. I think “in check” is a reasonable characterization.
Anyway, my point was it’s not like Rose’s poor defense on Rondo cost them game 7. It didn’t. Rondo was not going off and dominating play the way he did earlier.
by hitlesswonder on May 3, 2009 11:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Popcorn machine.net says slightly otherwise.
Here: At least in regards to Thomas. He was -4 to start the first six minutes of the 2nd quarter.
Ben Gordon was -14 in the last 5:22 of the half.
Rose was -20
Brad Miller, coming in for Thomas , was -14
Joakim Noah was -20 in his 9 mins.
Salmons was -12 in his five minutes in the middle of the quarter… and
Hinrich came in for him and was -6 in three minutes.
These were the only 2 lineups they threw out there while they were getting slammed, hardly a bevy of lineups.
Tyrus Thomas played 17 minutes. He shot 50% from the floor. Double that and in 34 mins, that’s 8 points, 10 Rebs, 4 assists, 4 steals, 4 blocks, 2 TO’s and 4 PF’s. Even in a very subjective sense, I don’t get how that comes to not playing well. Okay, more points would be great, but I’d call that a pretty effective game.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
Well, he didn't play 34 minutes and accumulate those stats
But in the grand scheme of things, I wasn’t meaning that post as a referendum on Tyrus. The question was whether he should have been out there in significant 4th quarter time, and his overall statistical quality of play in the game was only one consideration.
Sure, his stats were fine. Not great, as you concede (not enough scoring… which is exactly what we needed in the forth). But again, in context of the game situations and alternatives (as I went through), I’m just can’t don’t look at them and think it was some huge crime he wasn’t out there. I don’t think I would have flinched if he was out there in lieu of Kirk or Salmons, but I’m quite skeptical it’d have made a positive difference.
Despite what Matt and KD argue, I’m just not convinced. Salmons, who I’m by no means in love with, as you know, was a pretty reasonable play in that situation. So was Kirk. And Ben. And Rose. And we only get to play 5 guys.
I understand that.
And I know it’s easy to see them as meaningless stats (not saying that you said that, just that I can understand it if someone did make that argument), but I know one of the steals, at the end of the first quarter, when it was all frantic and he stole the the ball to get Kirk Hinrich a last-second heave. Sure, nothing positive seemed to happen, but it also kept the Celtics from even getting one last shot off.
And you’re right, we can’t speculate and know exactly what he would have done. He didn’t play 34 mins. Which is why it’s hard to say that he wouldn’t have made a difference (this also goes back to the whole "well, when he’s playing well, they play him more argument from earlier in the year).
And the first part was to refute your point that the bulls threw a bunch of lineups out there and still couldn’t stop the run so there’s no reason to expect that Thomas would have done anything different in the fourth quarter. The Bulls regularly play 7 guys. In the 2nd quarter collaps (new blog!) they played six players. And if you think that the NBA is about runs (an dmaybe stopping those runs), I think it’s important to note that the one of the seven they didn’t play was one player, who despite all of his faults, is clearly known as a defensive game-changer. The offense was so bad that I can’t see him making it worse. He probably, however, would have helped the defense. Definitely? Of course not.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
OK, re the second quarter, I agree more
My thinking there is that he was part of the lineups they threw out there in the second quarter, and he didn’t get much going. Agree completely that he would have been very sensible to try out again as we continued to get our asses handed to us no matter who was out there.
And I understand that it wasn't a referendum on Thomas.
And I also know that, outside of Thomas, the other two best defenders in this series have been Noah and Miller. But I do think they could have thrown out another lineup or two just to see. I wouldn’t have minded seeing Thomas guard Pierce. You might think it’s a horrible idea, but I don’t.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
Re the 4th quarter, I agree less
It’s not that I think Tyrus guarding Pierce is awful in the abstract. Or at all. I’m just saying that, in the context of a close do-or-die game, in a series in which he hasn’t done it, it’s a lot to ask to go with that as a strategy.
Especially when the alternative strategy (going small and outscoring the opposition) has worked pretty well up to that point. In fact, it didn’t work in this game, but the Bulls did cut into the lead and keep it close. They just couldn’t seal the deal the way they had in 5 other games.
So, maybe to clarify, I’m trying to be fair minded. We had a strategy that worked fairly well, and would the coach not be (justifiably) open to criticism on the grounds of panicking and changing everything if he went away from that to try out a lineup he basically hadn’t used the entire series?
I agree with that.
I’m not thinking it would have definitely made the difference, but I don’t think there’s any reason to say it wouldn’t have.
So, with that, you either go with what worked in the past, however unconventional (a four-guard lineup) and hope it starts working again like it did before, or see that it’s not working right away and the Celtics have “figured” something out or shots aren’t falling, etc. (admittedly, not this staff’s strong suit) and try something different. The Bulls chose the former. It didn’t work, so “we” tend to gripe, but there’s nothing to say the latter would have worked any better.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
The real tragedy of the series ... we come away still questioning does Tyrus have value to this team?
not enough playing time, at times showing outstanding potential?, at other times totally out of sync?
Maybe because of match-ups, Tyrus wasn’t the effective player to have on the floor, (as Sports2) eludes, but still so any questions still exists with Tyrus??
man up!
by exult463 on May 3, 2009 9:14 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Sign Gordon and get some skilled Big Man
The Bulls as a whole will improve when they no longer have to play 3 or 4 guard line-ups because their bigs stink on both ends of the court. Sign Gordon. screw his ignorant (but, I like blue collard players) detractors. Hustle players are a dime a dozen. You would think these BG haters have learned that the one of the main reasons we lost is because Boston put more skilled players on the floor. Even the least talented Celtics can hit wide open shots, take charges, and rebound. Paxson has loaded this team with hustle players with limited skills. Oh yeah, the Celtics coaching was better too.
i dont know if hes skilled
but when is omer asik coming?
by Chicago Bulls on May 3, 2009 9:45 PM CDT up reply actions
Keep Gordon for sure.
After what he did for Chicago it would be a slap in the face to let him go, in my opinion.
I may be pointing out the obvious when I say this, but the offense seemed stagnant ALOT. Rose would bring up the ball, dance around, wait for something to happen, when nothing really did. Maybe Hienrich would attampt to come off a screen but that didn’t work (when I was watching). This was throughout the series, especially in the final posessions of each overtime game.
I was rooting so hard for the Bulls, it was so exciting, but the offense just killed me. Rose would hold the ball for 20 seconds then would be pressured into driving and dishing for a forced shot or a wild layup.
But, MAN!, do I love watching Gordan make wild layups. That guy can take a hell of a beating. That guy is absolutely amazing, and especially underrated.
Clutch as hell too.
One more thing: Rose blocking Ronda’s shot in game six is a memory I will cherish forever.
I hate Ronda.
you really should take a little lesson about player's name spelling.. ;-)
DRose is gonna carry us into the playoffs and take it to another level from there...
Lots of people in Portland want Hinrich..
You guys interested in a trade?
"There goes Brandon Roy... the best there ever was in this game"
the Borg collective that is Pax DorfGarmanica will have to get back to you
my guess is that the Bulls just want cap relief….like about 20 other teams out there right now.
by KentuckyBullsFan on May 3, 2009 7:51 PM CDT up reply actions
how bout this
Hinrich and Tyrus for Aldridge pryzbilla and bayless
by Chicago Bulls on May 3, 2009 9:25 PM CDT up reply actions
I think people were thinking more along the lines of hinrich
for bayless (or blake or sergio) and either travis outlaw or martell webster
"There goes Brandon Roy... the best there ever was in this game"
by two buck chuck on May 3, 2009 10:55 PM CDT up reply actions
I thought they already signed a deal with Webster
Portland, I meant
"...Lies, damned lies, and statistics."
Bayless and Outlaw for Hinrich?
I like that. Can Outlaw play defense? I like his length. I like Bayless.
I like Bayless too
I liked Outlaw too during the regular season, but in the playoff, he just didn’t showed up, offensively and defensively
"...Lies, damned lies, and statistics."
Yeah lots of Blazer fans feel that Blake just doesn't cut it against the elite PG's
And see him as more of a back up player. They see Hinrich as a more established starting PG who is both defensive minded and can be an offensive threat as well. Plus you guys have one of the best PGs in basketball so you might be willing to get trade Hinrich. Personally, I think we should stay put. We have a good team, and maybe Bayless can step into the starting PG role. People have really have had a falling out with Travis Outlaw.. There’s some who just have never liked him. He’s a Ben Gordon type player who is pretty one dimensional in that they shoot well but don’t do anything else so good (read: no defense). If we traded Bayless and Outlaw for Hinrich, at the very least I think it’d be a win-win. Is Hinrich a lock down defender?
"There goes Brandon Roy... the best there ever was in this game"
by two buck chuck on May 4, 2009 1:43 AM CDT up reply actions
Hinrich,, defense is exceptional.. really
he can put pressure on guys even slightly taller also. He is crafty and getting better at disrupting ball movement and now is resulting in a higher number of steals. His weakness is he sometimes has problems with quick small guards.. (just like most other players in the NBA..so no big deal)
man up!
I'm ok with the deal... Bayless could replace some of Gordon pts.. if Gordon's not resigned
Outlaw might be up for contract renewal? But we would have to get a a decent backup price… But Outlaw would soon begin to out offense Deng just as Salmons has done. Deng disappears with under 10 pts per game too often.
Outlaw’s Defense isn’t notable… Bayless behind Rose.. mmm. (Bayless isn’t a backup forever.. he will start somewhere or get 6 man minutes eventually). because I believe Bayless might be able to play point in the nba.. unlike Gordon..
man up!
Hinrich for Rudy!!!
Bye, bye Gordon! (he won’t “replace” him, but he’d be a lot cheaper)
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
DO IT!!!!
but they wouldnt do it…..(meaning portland)
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
I saw on BE
a fanpost saying they wouldn’t even give Batum. But they’re delusional about ‘their guys’. Then again, Pritchard may be as well.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 4, 2009 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions
If KP traded Rudy,
he’d have a riot on his hands. The most he can give up, and retain his head, is Blake and Outlaw for Kirk.
That wouldn’t be bad, either. Blake’s a terrific back up point guard – a vet who can shoot and handle the ball – and Outlaw would be very good off the bench, especially if we lose Ben and need to move Salmons to the starting two. Both players are under reasonable contracts.
It would seem to be a move that benefits both teams. And I can understand Portland’s attachment to Rudy. He’s just tremendously exciting and saavy. A perfect role player. But for those reasons, he’ll stay where he is.
(Batum, though? Enjoy him, Portland.)
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on May 4, 2009 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions
I dont know why they would want to keep batum
my thought is they want to play b-roy as much as possible, and fernandez is like i said, manu-lite (with the potential to be just like manu). Thats a solid 2 and 3 right there (they can both play either position, although b-roy being the overall better player and defender might be better at the 3 spot to handle those pesky athletic sfs), plus if you have kirk on your team, you have a guy who can play the stint of a 2 guard, especially considering that if he is playing the 2 guard he would most likely be playing alongside either b-roy or rudy, with thier potential future star pg at the point. So they dont have need for batum or outlaw, and i would imagine outlaw would make more sense for them to keep since he is a veteran and they probably need a player off the bench who can do his job on the floor as opposed to a young sf like batum.
I regress though, it doesnt really matter. We would be giving them a starting pg and possibly thier only missing piece left (i think oden can be a nice defensive anchor, even if he isnt a superstar, he is gonna be a solid player so long as he doesnt completely fall apart) and in exchange all we want is two backup players, one at the sf spot and one at the point. Id rather have batum just cuz he isnt a jump shooter which this team needs, and outlaw for however athletic he is, might regress to jumpshooting on the bulls cuz thats how our scheme usually is. Also batum is a smaller rookie contract which is much easier to handle.
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
umm... Brandon Roy can't guard SG's yet. Why SF's?
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
wasnt brandon roy's
biggest selling point when he was drafted his defensive ability. Actually this is the second time ive heard this comment, the first was from Artest after the houston round 1. I guess this is also one of the reasons i hate for hinrich to go to portland (although i still think its his best spot) or any other team, i just wont be able to watch the games and how they play the games. I remember that roy’s biggest selling point was he was an all around player, he was a scorer and a great leader, but he could also lead on the other end of the court, and could be a lockdown defender when he had to be.
http://www.nba.com/celtics/news/draft-central/2006-draft-scouting-reports.html
Strengths: Roy is a great athlete who is widely considered to be one of the top perimeter defenders in this year’s draft. He has an NBA-ready body that he isn’t afraid to use on both ends of the floor. Roy is fantastic finisher and has a knack for getting to the rim and drawing contact. Defensively, Roy is rugged and should immediately add toughness to his new NBA team. He is also an excellent rebounder for a perimeter player.
http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Brandon-Roy-NBA-Draft-Scouting-Report-2823/
On defense, we see this same versatility. Roy has guarded four positions very effectively throughout his career, and is just as comfortable checking a point guard as he is a wing. His most notable defensive exploit this season was probably locking up UCLA PG Jordan Farmar, forcing the sophomore into one of his worst games of the season (2-13 shooting, 7 TO’s).
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
I hate to say it, but the reason he isn't a full-time all out defender
Seems to be knee-related. He spends so much energy on offense, he just doesn’t have the juice left in the tank to guard Kobe. Batum is an exceptional defender though so he kind of makes up for it. But, when Roy locks down at the end of the game, he can play phenomenal D as well.
"There goes Brandon Roy... the best there ever was in this game"
by two buck chuck on May 4, 2009 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions
roy struggles with a similar problem as hinrich to an extent
not comparing the two players, but the situation….blake is a sucky defender, so roy has to pick up basically his slack and his own man. Roy often guards the better perimeter player…same for hinrich. Hinrich is coupled with gordon or rose, in either case both rose and gordon have trouble on that end (especially rose) so hinrich has to guard the better player while trying to pick up the slack of his backcourt mate.
Put hinrich and roy together. Neither has to expel as much energy on the defensive end (both can guard each others man if theres a switch) and the result is that both can play harder on the offensive end of the court.
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
i dont know what the status of oden is
but if he is even a solid center (not a superstar, or a star, just a solid center who can defend, like noah is on our team) then i think portland might be a kirk hinrich away from contention. As a hinrich fan id like nothing more for kirk to become to portland what mo williams (to a lesser extent) is to cleavland. At the same time, my favorite team (the bulls for those of you keeping track at home) would be out of a financial jam and be able to move on and be on the right track onto building around rose. For me its as close as a win win as i can get….ditto for the two teams involved and perhaps all parties….
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
Oden had, literally
one of the best rebounding seasons a rookie has ever had, by percentage. His biggest obstacle was the 15 extra pounds he carried from microfracture, which made him slow, resulting in foul trouble.
To be honest, I think Hinrich and Roy would be one of the best backcourts in the league, if not the best. They would easily be the most fundamentally sound… defensively strong, offensively potent… it’s a match made in basketball heaven.
The Blazers were the best offense in basketball and the 13th best defense. They just need a point guard who understands team defense and knows how to move his feet. Hinrich is that guy.
draft dejuan blair
I would do it
only for Bayless and Outlaw, but they will most likely offer Sergio instead
"...Lies, damned lies, and statistics."
i don't mind getting sergio in return
given that the PG spot is filled for 35+ min a game and there’s only 10 to fill in there.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
exactly
i also am not completely down on deng, so i wouldnt mind just having a decent sf like batum who gives you a different playing style than either salmons or deng, as opposed to outlaw who i can imagine has a playing style that is somewhere in between deng and salmons…
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
I always felt Batum is very similar to Thabo
a defensive specialist, but not much on the offensive end, if we traded Thabo away, why get another Thabo-like player ?
"...Lies, damned lies, and statistics."
didnt we trade thabo away
i thought thabo was part of the newyork deal which allowed us to get rid of hughes. The way i saw it was at the time it made sense to get rid of thabo cuz we would have no room to play him….rose would play point, gordon start at 2 and deng start at 3. Salmons would backup at 2-3 and hinrich backup at 1-2. Both players were good enough to backup full time, so having another person, thabo, would make a glut. of course didnt know deng would be injured, if we knew of dengs injury i think thabo wouldve stayed….now we are talking about getting rid of kirk, and (at least i am) about trading gordon or not signing him, in which case you woulld have rose, salmons, and deng starting. You need someone to backup salmons and deng, and that could be batum (and a rookie)
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
thabo went to okc for a late 1st round pick
had nothing to do with ny at all.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
didnt new york pick up
that one dude…that pf…(yes as i am typing im literally thinking….) ahh chris wilcox. He went to new york. I know it came off as a seperate transaction but i wanna say that it probably was meant to be one big transaction (or else its kind of a wierd conincidence….
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
Batum to Thabo?
Defensively, yes, but Batum’s rookie season at age 20 was far superior to Thabo’s in terms of offense. Comparison
Nic shot very, very efficently… Thabo was a -.8 offensive win share. I’ve never seen a number that low.
Still, the analogy makes a lot of sense on the defensive end.
draft dejuan blair
Like China Stop said, our first priority is getting a dead hooker in Vinny's trunk
So how about Hinrich for dead hooker + cash.
It’s a pretty standard deal for Chicago politics.
by KentuckyBullsFan on May 3, 2009 7:55 PM CDT reply actions
As bad as VDN looked for us
As I’ve said before, I’d rather have the AI of nba 2k9 coach this team. But give the guy some credit. He got this team united and played together. And we have the results. He, for some reason, got this team to the playoffs and even made it competitive.
Lets just hope he improves in the X and O’s as he seems to be doing fine in other departments.
Guys like Mike Brown, Sam Mitchel, doc rivers, lawrence frank had their ups and downs. All had worst season than VDN’s first but all had better seasons also. Mike Brown was a good defensive coach, bad offensive coach. He got that fixed this season by trusting his assistants on offense. Doc Rivers did the same thing with thibadeau letting him do his thing on defense.
Its a combination of growing as a coach and getting the right assistant coaches to cover your weaknesses. This season, his weakness was his inexperience. So he got some veteran coaches. Maybe, hopefully, he can get an X and O guy next season, and bring this team to the next level.
I work at walmart
I hate working at walmart, i hate most of my managers at walmart, i have a few friends at walmart, but we only hang out while working, never off the clock. Yet there are times when i work hard at walmart, because sometimes i just hate when the department i work in looks like crap, or because i really want to keep my job and keep getting paid until im done with school and the economy being the way it is, or because i need a certain day off or want to leave work early so i need to get a certain ammount of work done so i can get what i need.
IN other words, jsut cuz a team played hard for a coach, doesnt mean the coach actually had anything to do with it. This is a team of guys who want to win who want to compete who are good hard working people. They had a retarted season last year and they probably didnt want to be in that place again, they had a tlaking to with teh gm, and they probably didnt want to lose this nice gig they had going (hinrich) or wanted to get a promotion (gordon) or just got a promotion and wanted to show they were worth it (deng…he failed horribly though)….
John paxson: Store manager of walmart
Reinsdorf:District Manager
Coach: Assistant manager
bulls players: Lowly associates working for a cruel corporation….
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
by piccolomair on May 3, 2009 11:55 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Now that is a SLAM on the Bulls organization.
Who is the creepy guy who pretends to be a sales associate but is actually a security goon – Gar Forman?
"Whoever was responsible for pulling that offer [to Ben Gordon] off the table...bring him before me and I'll punch him right in the face " - Frederick Pfeiffer
by Granny Waiters on May 5, 2009 12:10 AM CDT up reply actions
i pegged forman as a co-manager actually
at my store the security goons dont act like sales associates, they act like….regular goons. Once
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
I had a run in with a goon dressed like a sales associate at Wal-Mart who
basically accused me of casing the joint. Haven’t been back since.
To get back on topic, who is JR’s “enforcer” in the organization?
"Whoever was responsible for pulling that offer [to Ben Gordon] off the table...bring him before me and I'll punch him right in the face " - Frederick Pfeiffer
by Granny Waiters on May 5, 2009 5:43 AM CDT up reply actions
Or maybe he was your typical goon type whose brain power compares
to Aaron Gray’s foot speed.
"Whoever was responsible for pulling that offer [to Ben Gordon] off the table...bring him before me and I'll punch him right in the face " - Frederick Pfeiffer
by Granny Waiters on May 6, 2009 12:12 AM CDT up reply actions
I guess all that money I borrowed for graduate school was a waste then.
"Whoever was responsible for pulling that offer [to Ben Gordon] off the table...bring him before me and I'll punch him right in the face " - Frederick Pfeiffer
by Granny Waiters on May 6, 2009 7:03 PM CDT up reply actions
Speaking of aaron gray
in my philosophy class i have a guy who looks just like him…hes like aaron grays dumber unathletic brother (yea hes less athletic than gray…)
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
Do you guys think Handbrough would be a bad pick at 26?
Thats who they have the Bulls picking on NBA draft.net
The last thing the Bulls need is an undersized but "gritty" player.
"Whoever was responsible for pulling that offer [to Ben Gordon] off the table...bring him before me and I'll punch him right in the face " - Frederick Pfeiffer
by Granny Waiters on May 5, 2009 5:44 AM CDT up reply actions
Average Team
So you are saying all that great play we saw from the bulls was a fluke? they as well suck? very good to know. I thought they played phenomanal, and probably as good as the magic could possibly play the celtics in 7.
also, dont see why the hostility, this series could turn your entire franchise around, look what a series against us did for the hawks, cavs and lakers last season.
Silly me.
I thought getting Mike Bibby for essentially nothing turned the Hawks around. And I thought getting Pau Gasol for essentially nothing was the big change in the Lakers. And I thought getting Mo Williams for essentially nothing, and having an in shape Varejao for a full season kind of made the biggest difference for the Cavs.
Thanks to your wisdom I learned that adding considerable talent isn’t as important as losing to the Celtics in the playoffs. I feel so much better about the future of the Chicago Bull now.
Actually, if you cant figure out the drive and determination, and even the front offices of those teams seeing they had to get better after a series with the celtics, I cant help you
the story of the hawks season has been growing from what they learned in the playoffs against the celtics, dont take it from me, take it from the mouths of their players and head coach who say it to no end.
The Lakers didnt come back more determind because of what happened to them in the finals? no brainer
Cleveland did get homecourt and become the best home team in the league because of wanting it against a healthy boston? no?
This experience wasnt a good one for your young players? they arent going to come back hungrier taking the defending champs to 7?
Um, yeah gro
That's a lot of time to have a monkey wrench thrown into player development and not have a cohesive offensive or defensive scheme.
If Vinny stays (God help us), than Paxson needs to bring in an entirely new staff of assistants who are conerned more with improving the team instead of just being grateful they have a job.
Although the easiest solution and a great first step would be to move Vinny somewhere else in the managerial chain of better yet just fire his ass for incompetence.
If you can't answer a man's arguments, all is not lost. You can still call him vile names.
Elbert Hubbard
by Tyrusmancrush on May 4, 2009 1:29 AM CDT up reply actions
or not of
If you can't answer a man's arguments, all is not lost. You can still call him vile names.
Elbert Hubbard
Vinny
I live in LA so seeing a lot of Laker fans they all think Vinny did a good job with our team. They are suckered by the thought that Boston was so much better and coaching kept us in.. After picking my jaw off the floor I went on to explain we have no real offense, no defensive strategy, so set rotation, our best shot blocker barely plays in game 7’s, and we call timeouts down 10 with 12 seconds but dont have any 2 games in a row to get a final shot, and their response is at least they play hard, last year they didnt even do that. And I got also pointed out that the youngsters are playing more than they would have before and thats helping and he is new and he is learning and we got him cheap. I thought this was an interesting perspective, I had forgotten how bad Boylan was and how badly the team quit on Skiles. Why cant we just have a real coach without all these issues that can actually develop players and not piss everyone off? Is that too much to ask for???
by NamingRightsOnSale on May 4, 2009 4:38 AM CDT reply actions
It sort of is a lot to ask for… how many teams are totally happy with their coach?
Lakers with Phil, Jazz with Sloan, and the Spurs with Popp are pretty safe but I don’t know if that means that the fans are totally content. Celtics with Doc, Cavs with Brown, Rockets with Adelman, Nuggets with Karl, Magic with SVG, Mavericks with Carlisle, these guys are looking good because of success and their fans are probably happy. That’s not too many teams, though, and the rest of the league surely has coaching issues…
"It’s the same approach as in batting practice," Stairs said. "I try to hit every ball as far as I can."
by Matt Stairsmaster on May 4, 2009 8:29 AM CDT up reply actions
In the Offseason
Someone wrote an article a while back about how the current evolution/revolution of basketball is turning away from traditional post play for offense and traditional tall big men for defense. Two key points made for increasing chances to win included: the faster your front court is, the better your chances are for wining and jumping ability is more important than physical height. I agreed with these points despite the constant reminders from commentators that the bulls didn’t have a post player. All the while many of the winning teams in the NBA didn’t have traditional post players!
For 2 years now it appeared that the bulls were evolving in this fashion. Then we acquired Aaron Grey and now Brad Miller, two gigantic steps backwards. It kills me even more that there was fantastic talent that we passed up on for these turtles. I hope we can get rid of these two and proceed in our evolution, I hate that we gave away Sefolosha, he was a tall guard that could actually defend and pass the ball pretty well even though he couldn’t shoot real well. If there is one trait that can always be developed it is shooting. Its much harder to force a guard to learn how to pass and defend (ie Gordon).
When you surround young talent with old people it stifles the energy! We need more young talent, keep the elderly on the bench coaching, that’s their place! (look at Atlanta right now, they are scary) Get another Tyrus Thomas, someone who can run, jump, and defend, even if its overly energetic and chaotic. They can be taught to shoot, their energy focused. I hope to see more of the younger guys in the preseason (Johnson, Roberson, and Nelson)
What fantastic talent?
Here’s the list of F/C drafted after Aaron Gray in the ’07 draft:
Demetris Nichols
Herbert Hill
Giorgos Printezis
Milonvan Rakovic
Maybe I’m not following the NBAD League, but it doesn’t look like we passed on much to get Gray.
Now for Miller:
We gave up Gooden & Simmons in the trade.
We’ll likely miss out on signing these big men this summer because of Miller’s cap number:
Unrestricted FA:
Lamar Odom
Mehmet Okur
Carlos Boozer
Restricted FA:
Paul Milsap
Marcin Gortat
David Lee
Charlie Villanueva
Josh Childress
Are there better options there than Miller? Of course. But how many do we have a realistic shot at signing? And how valuable is Miller’s contract come next February?
The trade for Miller (and Salmons) got us two HUGE advantages: We got better immediately and we improved ourselves for the summer of 2010. The downside to the trade was we lost flexibility in the summer of 2009 – which is universally considered the weaker of the two free agent periods.
You can dislike the slowness of Gray and Miller, but you’re hard to say either was a bad move in the grand scheme of this organization.
Miller's contract is huge...
He was a great pickup. The young front court players love him and have stated that he is a great teacher. And despite being left on the court for too long by the coach at times, he did contribute a lot.
But his contract is likely the most valuable piece. He has THE most attractive contract in the league next year—-the largest expiring contract, which will certainly help swing a deal. If there is any chance at Bosh, he will be an important part of it.
the problem is Paxson is not willing to make a deal
by LoveForTheGame on May 11, 2009 2:38 AM CDT up reply actions
like Prichard did with the Lafrentz contract
and Paxson did before with the P.J. Brown contract. The contracts are worthless if you don’t use them properly.
by LoveForTheGame on May 11, 2009 2:38 AM CDT up reply actions
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