Joakim Noah: A rising star
by Figwit on May 3, 2009 6:46 AM CDT
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PrintI've always like baskeball, but as you get a little older you find other things interesting in life. I am no exception. I recently discovered the joy of baskeball once more and the first game I happend to see was the 5th Game of the Bulls vs the Celtics. I have always been a 76'ers fan, but when I saw the determination and passion that the Bulls showed the Celtics, well, I rediscovered my passion for the sport. One person in particular that emboided the spirit of basketball was Joakim Noah. I saw the way he played the game with both passion and skill. I was impressed. Not many NBA players out there are team players who play because they love the game and because they love their fans. I saw that in Noah. I recently read many comments about him both negative and positive, but I was suprised about the negative comments floating on various blogs and boards. Wow! I understand people may not like how he plays for one reason or another, but to attack the man's "looks, family, and race is beyond belief. I saw Joakim play for only 3 games and in my POV, he is a rising star. He is not a "Hollywood" player, he is a team player and that is rare in the NBA today. He is proud to be a Bull and whatever people may say, he is on the rise. So, Noah, keep your head up, you have done well for your team; try not to beat yourself up for that last game(7) you let no one down. You are passionate and have a wonderful demeanor about yourself. You have a wonderful NBA career ahead of you and one day, you will have an NBA Championship for your team and for yourself! You have a new fan Noah and I will, like many of your fans never stop supporting you. That goes for the entire team of the Chlicago Bulls. Go Bulls!
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I could care less about Noah's "looks, family and race", but I am sorry....he is NOT a "rising star". He is a very mediocre energy player who had a few good games in this series. It is kind of insulting to have someone who readily admits to not having w
It is kind of insulting to have someone who readily admits to not having watched a Bulls game all season until Game 5 of the playoffs come on here and tell real Bulls fans that they shouldn’t be critical of a certain player. Go write love letters somewhere else.
^ This is why I love Blog-a-Bull
"The brownies,'' Fernandez said after the game. "The brownies are good for me to make three-points.''
Not a regular here IIRC (marcochi, that is).
"Whoever was responsible for pulling that offer [to Ben Gordon] off the table...bring him before me and I'll punch him right in the face " - Frederick Pfeiffer
by Granny Waiters on May 3, 2009 9:46 AM CDT up reply actions
This is why I lurked for a long time before finally signing up and posting something. ;)
Man-slave, bring me my PB&J!
I’ve been a Bulls fan as far back as I can remember.
There were two things that compelled me to join this board:
1. Possibily the worst coaching performance I have ever seen in game 6. Yes the Bulls won that game but not because of anything Vinny did. They won despite him and it was never so apparent as was in that game.
2. The love affair that Bulls fans and Chicago sports fans in general seem to have with mediocrity. I am hearing people on this thread compare Joakim Noah to Dennis Rodman, Marcus Camby and Rasheed Wallace. All I was trying to do with my original reply was temper people a little. Joakim Noah is an average player. This is a classic example of people believing what they want to believe instead of being reasonable.
This team won six titles in our lifetimes. Shouldn’t our expectations be a tad bit higher? I like Joakim Noah….I don’t think having him as our starting center is a bad thing. However, if you call him a star or a future star….you are embarrasing yourself.
What the fuck game were you watching. Did you not see the rebounds, the blocks and the steals.
Noahs steal and dunk won game 6 for us and he gave Boston hell to the point where he became a target of the fans. When you evolve from anonymous goof to the player that opposition fans love to hate and will chant “NOAH SUCKS” in their building then he is definitely a star on the rise.
Noah has played his way into staying in Chicago and he is only going to get better. Noah can keep his hair and his passion. Did you hear him after game six when Steve Kashul interviewed him. Did you hear his excitement. I heard it on Waddle and Silvy and I was pumped.
Every team needs a Noah on it to be a champion. I have watched Noah this whole season and though he has frustrated me at times I have seen his improvement and desire to improve and he put his hard work on display in the playoffs.
Once he puts on a little weight then he will be even better.
by Bart71 on May 3, 2009 9:40 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
If Noah adds another couple pounds
and a 12 foot jump shot, he still won’t be a star, but he could certainly be one of the best centers in the Eastern conference. He’s also a very good fit for a team that likes to run…like us.
Secondly: what’s with the nastiness? That might be the guy’s first post on BaB, and you shit all over him because he’s over-enthusiastic? Actually, I liked his post. It kind of reminded me of Noah: all over the place, lotta energy, maybe a little rough around the edges, but sincere.
No need to bite his head off.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on May 3, 2009 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions 6 recs
Noah may not be a star
but if I was building a championship team, Id want him on there
"I want the pressure...I want it and I feed off of it. Whenever I get the ball in my hand, I calm down." Air Force One
Wrong!
he is a rising star on the bulls at least
all he does is hustle
he had so many rebounds on both ends it is crazy
total rebounds in the series for him: 77
If your afraid, go buy a dog!
"Very Medicore Energy Player who had a few good games"?
Marcochi, you should be banned for such a ridiculous post. Who are you really? I would like to meet you. You are one of the so-called Bulls fans who have been an embarrassment to this blog. If after seeing Noah in this series, you have the nerve to make negative comments about him, you should not be allowed to make another post. Who really are you? Are you for real? I can’t believe you have the nerve to describe yourself as a “real Bulls fan.”
by SlamDunk on May 3, 2009 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
There was once a saint with the last name "Fu" and he liked to be referred to by the following abbreviation:
STFU!
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
Outplayed by Boston's 5th best starter
He had had a good series and I now tolerate him but he was outplayed by Perkins who is Boston’s 5th best starter.
not to speak for mr. Johnston,
but I assume that he doesn’t consider big baby the actual starter.
good point
though to say someone is fifth best behind (in no particular order) garnett, pierce, allen, and rondo, isn’t exactly that much of an insult.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
good point.
though to say someone is 5th best behind garnett, allen, pierce, and rondo, isn’t exactly too much of an insult.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
he was the starter during the series, which is why i treated the comment as such.
perkins wasn’t the fifth best starter on the floor for the celtics right now, just because he normally is.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
That is pretty debatable that he was outplayed by Perkins
Noah had more win shares, significantly better ORtg
Perkins had a better PER, slightly better Drtg
Better look at +/- too
Noah had the worse +/- on the Bulls: -68 points.
Perkins was +41 points.
Perkins outplayed him.
p.s. Jaina is right…I consider KG the starter.
+/- is a horrible stat to argue which player did better.
just sayin.
Ben Gordon: Where Cojones Happen. - Gene Wojciechowski
by chibullsfan03 on May 3, 2009 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions
Everytime someone abuses +/- an angel dies or something like that.
Or it could be that I just get really frustrated that useful statistic gets turned into a joke by people who apparently have no idea what they’re doing.
The difference between Perkins and Noah’s +/- couldn’t be that Allen is better than Gordon, that Pierce is better than Salmons, and that Rondo is better than Rose at this point, and they just happen to play in a starting lineup.
The difference between Perkins and Noah couldn’t be that whenever Perkisn is out, Mikkie Moore or the Scalibrine is in and the Celtics suck.
The difference couldn’t largely be do to a single game, could it? A 30 point differential when the starters stopped playing in game 3 might just have altered the numbers some.
If you can’t adequately explain why +/- numbers are the way they are using other sources then you shouldn’t be posting them on the internet, unless you want to look dumb.
by Scotter on May 3, 2009 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
::sigh::
Get all of that, Jay?
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on May 3, 2009 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions
Did you see Brad Miller's plus-minus this series
he was amazing!
"Ben Gordon is a bundle of muscle and clutch. That's all he's made of. Drink BG7 energy drink, you'll grow a pair of balls on your balls."
Either SBNation is malfunctioning,
or you wrote:
“Noah had the worse +/- on the Bulls: -68 points.
Perkins was +41 points.
Perkins outplayed him.”
All that was missing was the little three little dots to boss things up with a little pseudo-symbolic logic.
Anyway, Scotter pointed out why +/- wasn’t a good statistic in this case; he does that a lot. It’s no big deal.
Either that, or you were being rhetorical, intentionally citing a statistic out of context to parody JeffD. Unfortunately, this being the internet, it’s pretty hard to guess the tone in which people are typing. That’s why we have emoticons. Like this one-
:P
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on May 4, 2009 6:00 PM CDT up reply actions
This is too much!
I give up! Can’t take this onslaught of moronic comments aimed at Noah. I was going to do a review of the Bulls-Celtics series, but this insanity of comments aimed at Noah after a spectacular showing against the Celtics has pursuaded me that there is no hope for this site. I prefer not to be associated with idiots.
What's going on on this Blog?
Jay Johnson, are you Marcochi using another name? Your comment is so stupid, it’s infuriating. Keep on trying to damage the credibility of this Blog.
I'm not Marcochi
If my opinion that Noah is not a rising star based on the series “damages the credibility of this blog”, then then blog ain’t very credible. I suspect the fact that you have had to post your outrage twice in this thread while adding zero content is more damaging.
Ben Wallace and Dennis Rodman weren't really "stars",
but Noah’s projecting to be that kind of player, and he’ll be at the very least the backbone of this team.
"Ben Gordon is a bundle of muscle and clutch. That's all he's made of. Drink BG7 energy drink, you'll grow a pair of balls on your balls."
Star?
… But a Defensive minded center that can average a double double with a better hook shot and some more weight room work in the offseason.
He can be a solid contributor on a good team
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on May 3, 2009 2:06 PM CDT reply actions
Showin' Noah some love ...
This team without Noah friggin’ blows. I think the thing about Noah which is not seen in any stats is how much $hit he stirs up in the paint, disrupting plays, etc. He’s an annoying defender, he plays hard and is usually mixing it up with the other team.
Compare that to Ben Wallace, the guy who literally couldn’t give two $hits after he signed his fat ss to a fat-ss contract. Noah wants to win, Noah tries to win and it rubs off on the team.
Damn, I’d wish he’d slap on 10 more pounds of muscle and get a nice little baby hook — if he can average 12 ppg and 12 boards, he’d be one of the premier centers in the East.
Um...
Slamdunk….you are a huge fan of mediocrity and that’s great. I’m sure that leads to a very happy life.
Why do you keep asking who I am, by the way? Yes, I am new to posting here but does that mean I have to provide all my personal details to nut jobs who disagree with me? It’s none of your business who I am. Let’s leave it at this…..I’m someone who you probably would have a very hard time getting along with. I don’t like people like you.
I am a Bulls fan and I was a fan when this team was great. So I am sorry that I am a “so called Bulls fan” because I don’t wet my pants over Noah. I HAVE HIGH EXPECTATIONS FOR THIS TEAM. I don’t like so-called Bulls fans like you who get all worked up any time someone actually looks at the Bulls critically. I’m happy for you that this 1st round series has you so excited, but does it really mean anything for the future? You really think Noah has permanently turned the corner? I’m sorry…..unless changes are made, PARTICULARLY coaching changes…..none of this matters. I want the Bulls to win titles.
I don’t know what games you watch, but Noah will never be a star. Sorry to burst your bubble. I never said he wasn’t a decent player. He is a decent player.
You said he was "very mediocre"
Most metrics from both the regular and post-season would say you are wrong.
Maybe I need a dictionary. To me, mediocre is similar to average. And to me, he is still average.
Not into metrics, that is my analysis.
Let me ask you….because the argument was originally about Noah being a future star….is he closer to average or to being a star?
No offense, but I trust the metrics more than your analysis
I guess it depends on how you define a star. I think Noah has the potential to be a dpoy candidate as well as among the league leaders in rebounding. He was already 2nd in the league in offensive rebounding % and top 10 in overall rebounding %. One of the top 10 rebounders seems more than average. Obviously he will never be an offensive star.
by JeffD on May 3, 2009 7:30 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Metrics say he's closer to being a star.
THAT WAS HIS POINT.
According to 82games.com:
http://www.82games.com/0809/08CHI17.HTM
The bulls went 41-34 in the games he played.
Noah’s PER at the PF spot was about 22; this is factoring in the whole year, in which he sucked until january. At the Center spot he is still a 17, which is 10th in the league according to John Hollinger.
Note that PER is a mostly offensive-minded stat, and Noah is a better defender than scorer, and he just finished his second year in the league.
"Ben Gordon is a bundle of muscle and clutch. That's all he's made of. Drink BG7 energy drink, you'll grow a pair of balls on your balls."
*Also note that those PER figures are playoffs only.
"Ben Gordon is a bundle of muscle and clutch. That's all he's made of. Drink BG7 energy drink, you'll grow a pair of balls on your balls."
[So the sentence before it saying 'factoring in the whole year' doesn't count for the 17 PER he got against Perkins.]
That sentence does count for the 22 PER from before, though, because I got that from 82games.com – so that’s ‘full year’ data.
Go confusing facts.
"Ben Gordon is a bundle of muscle and clutch. That's all he's made of. Drink BG7 energy drink, you'll grow a pair of balls on your balls."
82games PER is inflated
Hollinger (and other sources) have Noah at 16.57 for the year. That’s 23rd in the league for Centers. For some reason, 82games inflates this to 18.3.
It’s a bit concerning that 82games has Noah’s opponents going for 20.2 against him. Perkins and Davis each increased their PER in the series significantly. Each added about 4 points. This matches my observation that any talk of Noah as DOY candidate in the future is very premature.
What about the Gooden effect?
Noah played with wandering Gooden and then wandering Tyrus most of the year. Neither play traditional defense. When we had our Noah/Miller/Tyrus trio our front court improved noticeably.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
I was pleased with Noah's first playoff series.
He really stepped up the rebounding, looked in shape even in tripple OT, and never looked lost or timid out there. He took every opportunity given to him and created some on his own. Bulking up over the summer will do wonders for him. If he has a serious off season and comes in to training camp ready for anything I don’t see why he’d have any drop off from where he is now. He and Rose need to get their heads together over the off season too. If Noah is willing to run the court he has the speed to be a nice option in transition if they get a good relationship going on that.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
by cranscape on May 3, 2009 5:21 PM CDT reply actions 2 recs
I have never seen an NBA player come so far from the begining to the end of a single NBA season.
I was so furious with Noah at the beginning of the year. Out of shape, ugliest shot ever, didn’t know where to be on O, was late on his rotations on D, didn’t throw it down enough favoring layups or tips over slams… and then the dude actually asked to be pulled from a game in Denver 4 minutes into the game bc he was out of breath! That’s a major no-no in my book. I wrote him off, called him plain BAD.
But boy did he turn it around. After the all-star break in particular, he started to win me over with his suddenly consistent rebounding efforts and defensive tenacity. His passing was sharper. He even seemed to jump higher, and dunk more. His free-throws started to fall. Of course increased and more consistent minutes helped, as did the addition of B-Rad. But it was great to see- a true surprise.
I think his very good play in this series will ensure that he takes this off-season more seriously and comes back next year in shape, for the first time in his career. I think he can be a solid contributor on a championship caliber team because he knows his role and has the passion to want to be great. He can be our Dennis Rodman. His personal goal should be an eventual defensive player of the year. But the best part about Jo is that he doesn’t seem to care about personal goals and he doesn’t play for the money (unlike some…), he plays bc it’s his true love. I think he fits in with Rose as well as anyone. And I dig the whole package, and want him to be here when this team goes from decent to good to great.
by smash! on May 3, 2009 6:13 PM CDT reply actions 2 recs
Well, you might not be happy next year then.
Noah blames being out of shape to start the season on having been poked in the eye and getting a sprained ankle. If you don’t believe that’s the case, then he’s just making excuses, and there’s no reason to think he’ll be different next year.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
Uh....no..
I read an article this morning on Noah and he stated that his off season last year (and his approach to it) was less than professional. He also credited his lack of conditioning to start the season to it in part, stating that his his traveling around the globe took him away from what his focus should have been (getting in great shape). It also stated in the article that Noah is staying in Chicago this summer to bulk up and plans to head to IMG to work with Thorpe on his game at some point this summer.
I read that article too.
He does mention his injuries, but only after he mentioned his summer’s lack of effort. His injuries were a reason why it took even longer to get momentum. I think he is well aware of his previous mistakes and his injuries were real injuries anyhow. He’s hired a trainer and a dietitian so I bet he develops even better than if he was a good boy over the summer and just let Bulls develop him. Maybe his summer fun helped him figure that out even faster. Want to develop on the Bulls you hire your own help. He’s had to do that earlier than most. Good for him.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
That's how I took it.
I think he thought he had all the time in the world to get back into shape and figured he do his playing first and get to work closer to the start of the season. But then injuries derailed that plan, and he simply ran out of time before the season started. Now he’s learned the hard way that you can’t count on doing the work later.
He actually sounded a lot like me most of the time! Thank god you guys aren’t all around to critique my work performance. ;)
Man-slave, bring me my PB&J!
he's not playing on the French national team this summer?
man, it would be interesting seeing him playing together with Nicolas Batum and Tony Parker
"...Lies, damned lies, and statistics."
It all depends on what you mean by star
Noah is never gonna be an offensive juggernaut, but defensively he already is very good and could potentially be amazing. Obviously he needs to bulk up a little bit to hold his position defensively, but he is a very intelligent basketball player and he is fine with being a defensive specialist.
I truly think that he could be a Marcus Camby like player. His stats are similar at the same age (Noah doesnt block as many shots). Also, although he will never have quite the defensive impact on the game that kg has, I think he can come close. If he can develop a respectable 12-15 ft jumper and a respectable jump hook, then 13 pts 13 rbs a game are not out of the question. Hes already better that the likes of Kaman that everyone wanted earlier in the season.
Granted, he will never carry the load offensively, but that doesnt mean that he cant be a great player. This year he posted a 16.5 per despite being terribly out of shape for the first 2 or 3 months and that PER doesnt take into account his defensive ability. Also, whoever said that he got outplayed by Perkins is wrong…they played pretty evenly. Also, Perkins is really a good player. The big thing that noah needs to work on is setting screens, but that will probably improve with strength. Noah is definitely part of our core of rose, bg (hopefully we realize how good he is soon) and Noah. Those 3 are a great core moving forward…now if we can somehow turn the rest of the team into bosh.
by rosefromconcrete on May 3, 2009 9:20 PM CDT reply actions
What, no one Rec'd Figwit's post?
Excellent post, Figwit. Clearly, you are a person who appreciates things beyond PPG and highlight reel dunks. And I agree with what you say.
I was disappointed in the Noah pick initiallky, until my friend from Phoenix (not a Bulls fan) started telling me how lucky the Bulls were to get him. His assessment was correct when he said Noah has a nose for the ball, and brings energy and passion that are hard to find in the NBA. Add his agility and 7-foot height, along with his lineage (pro sports dad and championships with FLA) and you have a great catch for the Bulls at #9.
Keep the thoughtful posts coming, Figwit!
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
I'm a legit Noah fan now
…as recent as the middle of the season, I was still somewhat on the fence about the guy, but the last part of the season and the playoffs made me a believer. He never tries to do too much, he’s very aware of his limitations, and he gives effort out the wazoo. All the while being a very efficient player. What more could you want?
I really don’t care if he becomes a “star” or not, neither should any of us…as long as he does the things that the BULLS need, we should be happy. Lots of guys aren’t considered “stars” in the league, but their team wouldn’t trade that person for the world. That’s what I want for Noah.
I’m very anxious to see what the offseason has in store for him. I would love to see him bulk up (something that he has promised to do) and I would really love to see him get some type of go-to move (not a jumpshot). This summer is key for a lot of Bulls players, but him especially.
Thank you Noah for making me a believer.
http://awsomepeoplesearch.com/
My personal turning point with Noah was his hiring a personal trainer -
it indicates he woke up to what it takes to really compete in the NBA.
"Whoever was responsible for pulling that offer [to Ben Gordon] off the table...bring him before me and I'll punch him right in the face " - Frederick Pfeiffer
by Granny Waiters on May 6, 2009 8:36 PM CDT up reply actions
Let the numbers speak for themselves...
Noah’s in the first round:
10 pts 13 rbs 2 blks
Not superstar numbers, but very solid and potentially all-star. Easily Marcus Camby territory, which is pretty much what Noah projected. Easily Wallace or Rodman plus a little more offense. None of those guys is more than a three time all-star. If Noah’s in that category, we’re lucky to be Bulls fans.
No chance
Noah will never be a defender in the class of those three.
For reference, Chandler put up 12/10/2 in 04/05 playoffs in 10 less minutes per game. And was younger.
In the words of my favorite radio host, Joakim Noah is a "big, tall spaz".
That is what he is. He has value and he could surely be a part of championship team.
My point from the start was that he is NOT a star nor will he ever be a star. Let’s not let the excitement this series stirred up cloud our reason. This is still Chicago, where 6 NBA titles were won, and we should have higher expectations. We shouldn’t be labeling people stars if they haven’t earned it yet.
So high expectations=living in the past?
So then what is your point? You’re trying to combat high expectations for your favorite team? Why? What could possibly be the purpose of that?
Again…..Joakim Noah is a decent player but will never be a star. What about that do you disagree with or do you just like making short comments that have no relevance?
Short comment - use the "reply button".
"Whoever was responsible for pulling that offer [to Ben Gordon] off the table...bring him before me and I'll punch him right in the face " - Frederick Pfeiffer
by Granny Waiters on May 6, 2009 8:38 PM CDT up reply actions
I just read your comments above NormVanBeer
That is fine that you are a Noah fan. He is an ok player with value to this team.
But I just hope you aren’t being quick to judge because of a good performance in one 1st round playoff series. A LOT of players in the NBA play with the same kind of energy and produce the way Noah does (6.7 ppg, 7.6 rpg) but just don’t yell and have long crazy hair. I understand getting wrapped up in it all emotionally. I apologize for insulting your intelligence.
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