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What Could the 2010 Summer Look Like If the Bulls Re-sign Gordon?

This has been covered exhaustively on here before, but now that the time is upon us, and discussions are heating up, I re-explored the situation and tried to research it in depth. Unfortunately, I lack the complete know-how (and time, I'm at work) to be 100% accurate. I'm sure there will be mistakes, and I'd like people to point out the corrections. If you want to be really helpful, you could point out my mistake but also try to show how I could get around it. If not, I'll try to reply in the comments and update this post.

My primary sources:

NBA FAQ (best source on the web for these things)

DraftExpress Salary Page and their Contract Calculator

Can the Bulls re-sign Gordon this summer and still have payroll flexibility next year? Specifically, can they outright sign a max free agent--the likes of James, Bosh, Wade, Yao, Joe Johnson, etc.? See my attempt at figuring it out below.

Star-divide

 

Well, what do you think gives us the better chance of gettin Wade/Bosh/Johnson: Signing Ben, or having $15+ million of cap space?  --YaoPau

 

I'd say it's best to have both.

For the sake of argument, I'm going to make some assumptions:

 

  • The Bulls sign Gordon for $9 million for five years (I think that's the upper limits of what he'll get).
  • Salmons opts out, or (in my preferred scenario), he's traded for assured cap relief next year (there are multiple ways that could happen, one being: trading him "in principle" to Toronto w/ the #16 pick for the #9 pick and nabbing Blair, this assuming Toronton isn't trading Bosh this summer, which is what this whole thing assumes anyway, right?).
  • Bulls renounce Tyrus Thomas's rights.
  • Bulls give their draft pick away from this year to a team w/ cap space for a 2nd round pick.
  • Renounce Tim Thomas, James, Miller...

 

Committed 2010-2011 salary (numbers are approximate):

  1. Deng - $11.3
  2. Hinrich - $9
  3. Gordon - $8.2 ($7.7 if he signs for $8.5/yr, etc.)
  4. Rose - $5.5
  5. Noah - $3.1
  6. 2009Rookie26 - < $1 (here)
  7. 2010Rookie20 - < $1
  8. RosterCharge8 - $0.5 (see point 10 here, then here)
  9. RosterCharge9 - $0.5 (ibid)
  10. RosterCharge10 - $ 0.5 (etc.)
  11. RosterCharge11 - $ 0.5 (blah, blah, blah)
  12. RosterCharge12 - $ 0.5 (and again)

Total: $41.6

Expected cap: $56 - $58 million

This would be close to having enough space. If things were continuing as normal, the first year maximum salary for a player in the league for 7 years, would be ~17 million. But we already know that the cap is likely going to be down, and since the max salary is based off of the cap, the max salary would go down, too. At where the Bulls would be above, it's really close. Getting Gordon for less than $9 million would be a big deal. More than $9 million makes it really tough.

Worst-case scenario where they strike out on ALL free agents: they have the same team going forward like they would if they let Gordon go, except now they'd have Gordon instead of Tyrus Thomas (since they renounced him), but they'd also have plenty of cap space to re-sign Thomas and give him enough money to bring him back. They could also sign other players, re-sign Miller on the MLE if he wants to stay, etc. It's not a great team, but it's good. And I think it's better than not having Gordon.

Worst-case scenario where they bring in a Max player: The other teams don't want to do a sign-and-trade and they must renounce Thomas. They sign Wade outright, then have to get something for Hinrich or Gordon (probably not great, but I'd doubt it'd be horrible either), and they would keep the other one. Re-sign Brad Miller under the MLE (Bird rights no longer apply since they re-nounced him) . Bring in Asik. They have Rose, Wade, Deng and Noah starting for sure w/ Gordon/Hinrich, Miller, Asik and the two draft picks figuring out the fifth starter and the bench. I don't know how good that team can be. If Deng is healthy and returns to form and Rose becomes a superstar and Noah becomes Nene2.0 but skinnier but with more "perimeter" skills, it's pretty damned good. And that's my worst-case scenario. (Correction: Giving Joe Johnson a max contract in this scenario would be even worse since he's not as good as Wade) "Middle-ground" scenario: Bulls sign Bosh outright, re-sign Miller, bring in Asik. Rose, Gordon, Deng, Bosh, Noah start w/ Hinrich, Miller, Asik and two draft picks off the bench. Again, a lot still depends on Rose, Deng's health and Noah, but that's a very good and deep team. (I think this might be better than getting Wade outright and not getting good frontcourt value in return for one of the departed of Gordon or Hinrich, but honestly, I don't know.) If the mere ability to sign Wade or Bosh outright convinces the Raptors or Heat to do a sign and trade, then something that involves Ben Gordon and Tyrus Thomas and picks and filler would be exceptional because the Bulls would still be $10 million under the cap. (I'm not sure exactly how sign-and-trades involving UFA's, RFA's and "established" players would work. I do know the BYC for Thomas wouldn't apply to the Bulls and Wade, Bosh, etc. wouldn't have a BYC because their pay raise wouldn't be enough to start it. I'm pretty sure this is technically possible but practically very difficult. But possible.)

So, I know there are some things I'm leaving out. (I really don't want to work anymore on this.) I know I didn't come to a conclusion on exactly what I'd do. (Ideally, the Bulls re-sign Gordon for $2.50 and sign Thomas to a $1-a-year extension). I know I got some things around. I know it's not a sure-fire strategy but neither is gutting the roster and hoping everyone wants to come to Chicago. If the Bulls can sign Gordon for $7.5 mil/yr, they'd be foolish not to. If it's for $7.5-9 mil/yr, it's close, but I still think they should. If it's for more than $9 mil, I wouldn't argue against letting him walk... but I'd still hesitate.

What say you, oh fellow mouth-breathers?

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Comment 18 comments  |  4 recs  | 

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2010

My guess is its pipe dream. Bosh is over-rated and not a big fan of post players settling for 18ft jumpers ala Lamar Odom. Lebron is only going to stay in CLE or got to NY. So it leaves Wade coming back to CHI. If he goes anywhere it is prolly here, but ….. (personally, I dont like Miami as a town overall) its still florida. No state tax— no big city taxes— the weather is better— dont have to deal with the same pressure of media and fans….. basically outside of Miami being “Detroit South” (not a compliment) there are alot of better quality of life things in florida as well as money and business wise.
If we need a SG in 2010 joe johnson might be available, but I dont see him being a max contract carry a team type guy, plus he will be a little older than I would prefer for signing a guy long term max deal.

In essence it leaves us taking care of our scouting drafting well, getting better coaches (who have schemes and philosophies and actually coach), and adding in FA and trades pieces that compliment.
I agree SFs are easy to find, but very good ones are exceedingly difficult to find. Same goes for SGs, which is why finding tallish athletic players that are well rounded is the key. These types make matchups impossible and lead to deep playoff pushes.

Look at both Orlando and LA. They both present matchup problems for other teams through height and athleticism. Orlando with Pietrus, Turgolu, Lewis and LA with Bryant, Ariza, Odom, Walton. Both teams have low post presences, but the depth of LA is gonna prevail over Orlando b/c Gortat is the only big they seem to have confidence past Howard. Both have veteran pg play and some fine young pieces, but I think it will be a push in every spot, but down low where Gasol and Bynum are able to push LA to a title past Howard and Gortat.
Its about matchups and putting players in a position to succeed, however 6ft anything but pgs (and even they dont do very well) just are novelties in the NBA. They arent max players, they arent difference makers, and they create matchups NOT in their teams favor….. its just a fact sorry BG.

by Chisportfan on May 28, 2009 1:45 PM CDT reply actions  

hmmm

bosh takes jumpers because he isnt strong enough to power his way into the post, and you can only have your back to the basket for five seconds i think until its a violation. When bosh plays weaker forwards (which rarely happens) he tends to get position early and once he is in position he is really quick in the post with his moves. Bosh is a faceup post player by neccessity more than anything. And yet he still is regarded as a superstar around the league because he plays hard on both ends of the courts, is a terrific rebounder and passer. People talked about gasol here in chicago the same way you speak of bosh. Bosh however is in my oppinion far better than Gasol…thats me though

Joe johnson has got to be everyones non-superstar ideal shooting guard. He is a dead eye shooter both off the dribble and catch and shoot, has great length and knows how to use it, and is a terrific defender, him and derrick rose would be a dominating backcourt and id be happy of handing him a great contract.

Lebron and Wade are pipe dreams in my honest opinion. I dont think either are ever going to leave their team. And while they are on those teams, i could see real good players wanting to sign with those teams because playing with wade and bosh puts you in a position to go all the way.

I dont expect to nab a superstar in 2010, just a real good All star. I think outside of Stat and BOsh there are NO good big men in that free agency, but there are some great shooters who would work well with rose.

On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!

by piccolomair on May 28, 2009 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

Here's my run down (pretty much the same)

Deng $11.37
Gordon $8.84
Hinrich $9.00
Rose $5.55
Noah $3.13
2009 Pick #16 $1.71
2009 Pick #26 $1.12
2010 Pick #18*(100%) $1.24
Thomas RFA
Asik RFA



Players 8
Committed Salary $41.96
Cap holds $2.56 3 @ $0.85M each.
Cap Value $44.52

Projected Cap $59
Cap Space $14.48

Max Player $17.70
Remainder ($3.22)

To me, this is plenty of flexibility. Moreover, if we need more, I certainly look to move Hinrich because
1. We’ve established he plays significantly less than Gordon or Rose.
2. He’s just as expensive or moreso while playing significantly less.
3. He’s probably moveable.
4. He’s significantly older than the other guys.

In general, I think we’re best off pursuing a trade prior to 2010 as aggressively as possible. The free agent game is so stacked toward incumbent teams that even with lots of room we’re unlikely to pull off a deal no matter how much room we have. Thus, we need to not sit back, but maximize our efforts.

That is, I’d rather pull a trade now, even if it meant overpaying a bit, than sit back and assume we make something happen in 2010.

To wit, suppose we were offered two alternatives.

  • One is trading Noah, Tyrus, two of our three upcoming 1sts and the Raptors’ choice of Deng or Salmons to get Chris Bosh.
  • The other is sitting tight, letting Gordon walk, or signing Gordon and dumping Kirk and/or Salmons or picks to ensure max contract space.

In my opinion, I’d be much happier doing the former than the latter. Even giving up all that we’d give, we’d still have time to fill in pieces around our remaining “core” players. Most importantly, we would have quite a lot of certainty in our ability to do so. That is, suppose we’re a team of
Rose/Gordon/Deng/Bosh/Miller/Hinrich

We’d need to be scouting for a Miller replacement, but we’d still have Asik in the pipleline and plenty of MLE opportunities. Those are things that are eminently gettable almost every year.

On the other hand, inducing a max caliber player to leave his team and come to ours is something that almost never happens.

In short, a bird in the hand (a max player) is worth a huge amount more than a high-risk, low probability chance at a max player.

As a follow up to that, obviously if we can’t pull off a trade this year, the sort of plan Tyger (and I) endorse is the next best follow up. Having exactly the right amount of cap space isn’t as important as having enough to make a credible threat to allow a max player to request a realistic sign and trade. That is, have “enough” space plus the capability to make space (in this case being to trade Kirk and/or picks) and have sign and trade options (Kirk/Picks/Gordon/Tyrus) to help grease the wheels.

by Sports2 on May 28, 2009 1:51 PM CDT reply actions   2 recs

I'd agree w/ that, too.

I think the Bulls got lucky by being cheap and not putting their offer back on the table. Or they’re very, very smart. Pick a side. If they can get Gordon for less than $9 million per year, they can keep a very good team intact while still having sufficient cap flexibility in the meantime.

Re-sign Ben Gordon
Get Chris Bosh
??whatever??
Success!

People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett

by tyger1147 on May 28, 2009 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

Sports2, you're my hero

the only qualifier being you stole arseloads of my talking points. Needless to say I wholeheartedly agree.

USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 28, 2009 5:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

Finally, a note on Wade

I’d certainly take him if a realistic deal were to be worked in 2010 or sooner, but it just seems glaringly obvious that he shouldn’t be our primary target.

1. He’s just significantly older than our other key guys. How often do you see a 30 year old guy come to a team in their mid-20s to win a title?
2. If we have an area of weakness, it’s our interior play. The relative upgrade to our team of Bosh or possibly even Amare, who are both more age appropriate to this team, over the guys they’d replace is much higher than the relative upgrade to our team from replacing Kirk/Ben/Salmons with Wade. Not that Wade isn’t spectacularly better than them, he is, but I hope you understand the point I’m getting at. I’d rather have Bosh or Amare/Deng/Gordon/Rose than Tyrus/Deng/Wade/Rose. Which, by the way, would be a team that has a hell of a time creating any space for itself.
3. Likelihood we get him. Wade has won a title in Miami, and Miami is a favored destination in the NBA. Toronto isn’t. Phoenix isn’t. The LA Clippers really aren’t (that’s just an OT shout to ask folks what it would take to trade for the rights to Blake Griffin).

by Sports2 on May 28, 2009 2:00 PM CDT reply actions  

On the first thing, too,

Wade is crazily injury-prone. That’s scary.

Three things you must know:
-"Ben Gordon is a bundle of muscle and clutch. That's all he's made of. Drink BG7 energy drink, you'll grow a pair of balls on your balls."
-Pau Gasol: The defense of a seven foot ladder paired with the post presence of Manute Bol.
-Joakim Noah is better than you.

by Prevenge on May 29, 2009 12:13 AM CDT up reply actions  

Watch Salmons not opt out

because of the economy worsening and his play decline; hopefully not much.

"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."

- fundamentallysound

by J Theory on May 28, 2009 9:54 PM CDT reply actions  

I could see that

but it’s the chance at a long-term deal. It’s entirely possible he plays worse (and the economy stays bad) in 2010-11. It’ll be his last contract, so getting it ASAP may be the best option.

USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 29, 2009 1:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

Salmons' numbers

have actually improved the past few seasons, especially since ‘07-’08. He’s still a great free throw shooter and I’ll bet he still has some good years left.

Tyger’s scenario looks appetizing and everything, but I think Salmons is more valuable than most people give him credit for. He really showed me something down the stretch.

Rumor has it Alex Brown keeps Chris Simms' right index finger in his back pocket for good luck.

by HanelucaTC on May 29, 2009 7:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

woops

Meant to say ‘06-’07. My bad.

Rumor has it Alex Brown keeps Chris Simms' right index finger in his back pocket for good luck.

by HanelucaTC on May 29, 2009 7:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

Who... cares....

He’s going to want a 3-year commitment, at minimum, next year and will likely get a 4-year contract for $5-$7 million. If you think that’s a good deal, then keep him and re-sign him. But it’s not smart, and the Bulls should get something out of him while they can. If they are going to lose Gordon for nothing, they shouldn’t lose Salmons for nothing the following year.

If the Bulls can move up 7 spots in this draft that doesn’t have much outside the Top 10-12-whether to trade the pick or keep it-then that’s more valuable to the Bulls of the future than the 1 or 2 wins Salmons might bring next year.

People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett

by tyger1147 on May 29, 2009 9:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

Good post

Thinkin bout it, I really would prefer a deep team over 2 superstars/no bench…. Im not trying to cheer for the Hornets 2.0

Derrick Rose once pissed in a soda can …we now call that Red Bull.

by Belize on May 28, 2009 10:13 PM CDT reply actions  

Business decision needs to be made between Hinrick or Rose for PG.

No brainer. Hinrick is gone. Too much money 4 a backup PG who can’t penetrate. Bulls lose additional 23 mil in salary next year when Tim Thomas, Miller and James contracts expire. They will not sign BG 4 less than 10-12 mil/year. He’s young and he’ll help a contender win next year b4 he allows the Bulls to screw him again. Lets hope Paxson gets some skilled and athletic Ballplayers who are consistent proven scorers and not one season wonders on the decline like Deng and Hinrick. Look at Cleveland, 30 mil/yr 4 Wally Szczerbiak and Wallace. What a waste of payroll.

by sadafan on May 29, 2009 12:37 AM CDT reply actions  

Here's my totally reasonable hypothetical.

Hinrich to the Wolves for the #6 pick, straight up.

Deng, Thomas and the #6 and #16 to the Raptos for Bosh and the #9

Wolves, give up #6 for Hinrich, rumored, seems a decent idea.

Raptors move up 3 spots in a “weak” draft, get some guys w/ good potential (if no longer “great”) and gain an extra pick for a player they’re going to lose anyway. They start re-building. If Calderon stays good for the rest of his contract, they’ll be pretty good in the next couple of years. If the suck ass, they’ll get a high pick in next year’s very good draft. They start Calderon, Harden, Deng, Thomas and Bargnani. meh, intriguing, but not exciting sounding just yet.

Bulls move their only two long-term contracts, good, but not great players. I like Thomas, Deng and Hinrich. A lot. But Bosh is better than them and I like winning more. Re-sign Gordon. Draft the best of Blair, Williams, Henderson. Starting next season, Rose, Gordon, Salmons, Bosh, Noah, w/ Blair, Miller, Tim Thomas… draft pick (Sam Young, Danny Green), whatever off the bench. It’s a good, but not great team. Probably around 48 wins, 1st round win. Going into 2010, if Bosh and Salmons opt out, and they re-sign Bosh at the max contract quickly (his cap hold will be $25 mil, but his first year salary won’t exceed $18 million), they’ll have PLENTY of money to pursue another max free agent or a number of very good complementary players. They’ll have, at most, $40 million in cap salaries/holds w/ only Bosh and Gordon on non-rookie contracts (combined, less than $27 million) and Rose, Noah, Blair, Asik, pick 24 and next year’s pick still on rookie contracts, and I’m not sure how they get that high.

Go after Wade hard. Definitely “settle” for Joe Johnson, even if at a max contract, then Ben Gordon would have a legitimate reason to come off of the bench. Find a SF somewhere. Maybe re-sign Miller at the MLE. Rose, Johnson, ______, Bosh, Noah w/ Gordon, Blair, Asik, Miller as the main guys off of the bench.

Bulls kick everyone’s ass for five straight years.

PROFIT!!! J.R. PROFIT!!!

People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett

by tyger1147 on May 29, 2009 9:26 PM CDT reply actions  

bring on tax time

I believe that the tax does not get calculated until the end of the season…

Based on that assumption, theoretically, you could pay Gordon now and make a trade depending on your needs half way through the season. This scenario provides the flexibility without the risk. It also gives this team a chance to show what they can do when the have some more time to play together… and I think we have a good, mid playoff seed, team as currently constructed.

In this scenario, flexibility is provided at the trade deadline… if I’m wrong, and our team is not competitive, we will be able to deal Kirk or Salmons to get ourselves under the cap for JR without completely gutting the club. On the other hand, it also provides us with the option to go the opposite direction and try to improve our team at the deadline next season… possibly by dealing for Bosh or Johnson if their teams are out of it and they don’t think they will resign.

If the club can’t get a deal done at the deadline next year, we’ll get back under the cap after next offseason. Since we didn’t do a dump trade at the deadline, it means we have a good enough team to make the playoffs, which hopefully will provide JR with the extra revenue he needs to justify one year of the tax…

Bottom line is I know we all assume that JR will not go into the tax, but I think if the options are dumping players and taking a risk in the free agent market (which we obviously failed at once before) vs one year with a small luxury tax (which could potentially be avoided), he could be convinced to go into the tax so long as Gar promises that we’ll dump salaries if it isn’t working next February.

by 72-10 on Jun 4, 2009 1:47 PM CDT reply actions  

number crunchers

what would it take to get bosh and johnson who on our team now could we keep?

by BullFan on Jun 16, 2009 6:31 PM CDT reply actions  

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