Salmons: One season fluke?
Was John's season a fluke?
I've seen this the question asked quite a few times. A player suddenly shooting the ball better at age 29 does raise serious questions, but I think there's a decent chance it's not a fluke. Lets take a look his shooting the last few years in Sacramento and with the Bulls courtesy of 82games.
| Jumpers | Close | ||||||
| Att. | eFG% | Ast'd | Att. | eFG% | Ast'd | Foul% | |
| Bulls | 73% | 50% | 51% | 27% | 66% | 50% | 13% |
| Sac 09 |
68% | 47% | 40% | 32% | 63% | 36% | 13% |
| 2007/08 | 58% | 42% | 39% | 42% | 63% | 35% | 14% |
| 2006/07 | 66% | 43% | 43% | 34% | 63% | 45% | 14% |
The numbers that should jump out right away is his FG% on close shots. 63% for three straight seasons. That's impressive efficiency around the basket. And he's getting to the basket for a good % of his shots. Gordon had an 80/20 split on his FGA for comparison. So at the very least John will finish around the basket as well as any Bull.
It is true that he's only put up one really strong 3-point shooting season, but he was consistent all season long with his shooting. He never shot worse than 37% in any full month this season, and shot at least 43% from 3 in his other 5 full months. And he shot the ball pretty well from nearly every spot on the floor. Prior to this season, Prior to this season John was a break even 3-point shooter at 33%, rather than a horrible 3-point shooter. Visually it looks like he's developed a consistent, but unorthodox, trigger mechanism for his shot, but he obviously doesn't have a Ben Gordon like track record. .
The focus has been on John's improved shooting, but nearly as important was a career best turnover rate. And the shooting and drop in turnover rate are likely connected. This season in Sacramento 24% of his FGA were 3PA, and he was assited on 62% of his 3PM. In 07/08 14% of his FGA were 3PA and 89% of John's 3PM were assisted. That at least suggests that the pull up three he took often this season either never almost never went in or simply wasn't a part of his game prior to this season
In 07/08 and 08/09 in Sacramento, Salmons took the same % of 2P jump shots, had the same FG% on those shots, and the same assist% on those shots.
| 3P FGA | 2P Jumpers | Inside Shots | |||||||
| Att. | FG% | AST% | Att. | FG% | AST% | Att. | FG% | AST% | |
| 2008/09 | 24 | 0.418 | 62 | 43% | 0.388 | 26 | 31 | 0.63 | 36 |
| 2007/08 | 14 | 0.331 | 89 | 43% | 0.387 | 4 | 41 | 0.625 | 35 |
And he had the same FG% on side shots with the same AST%, but a quarter of his forays to the basket ilkely became those pull up 3-point attempts. If he's shooting 40% on 3PA that's a reasonable tradeoff because it was that reduction in drives to the basket that likely led to a signifcant decline in turnovers. In Chicago he took even more 3PA and his turnovers dropped even more.
Something that caught my eye almost immediately is how much Salmons was assisted in Chicago compared to Sacramento. It's a fairly large jump, and I wouldn't have thought that Salmons was assisted on half of his shots in Chicago. For comparison Gordon was assisted on 47% of jumpers and 38% of close shots. At least part of the reason for the jump is Salmons getting a lot more assisted transition baskets with the Bulls, and the other part is more assisted 3s because he wasn't a primary ball handler in Chicago.
Much of John's game has been very consistent from year. Improving his shooting allowed him to cut his turnovers, and turned him into a starting caliber player for the 1st time in his career. So why did he shoot 41% o 3PA this season? The stats suggest either he made changes mechanically that allowed him to make jumpers with consistency, or that with Artest gone and Kevin Martin out injured he was able to play big minutes as a #1 scoring option for the 1st time. Which would have meant getting to take those 1 on 1 pull up 3s on a consistent basis instead of being put in catch and shoot situations as a reserve role player. Salmons shot 41% on 3PA this year, but he still didn't appear to be an effective catch and shoot player. It's probably a little of both. He's an odd player, but I don't expect his shooting to be a fluke if he's allowed to do his thing. If he's asked to conform to a system or asked to play a limited role off the bench where he can't get his 1 on 1 opportunities in the flow of the game there's a much greater chance that he reverts to the 33% 3P shooter and mediocre player. You can live with John's style of play when it comes within the rythm of the game, but it's not what you really want from a guy coming off the bench.
Can the Bulls survive with Salmons at SG?
I've seen questions about his ability to play SG, and I believe there were reports out of Sacramento at the time of the trade that he played better at SF. But at least according to 82games Salmons has at the very least not played any worse at SG.
| SG | SF | |||||
| MIN% | PER | opp PER | MIN% | PER | opp PER | |
| Bulls | 22 | 17.2 | 17.2 | |||
| 2008/09 | 18 | 17.4 | 21.6 | 30 | 18 | 17.1 |
| 2007/08 | 39 | 16.7 | 15.5 | 22 | 14.6 | 16.8 |
| 2006/07 | 26 | 14.5 | 15.3 | 23 | 12.8 | 17.6 |
His opponents PER this season in Sacramento wasn't good at SG, but it looks like a fluke compared to the rest of his career. Salmons appears to be a player that gives up about the amount that he produces. (In looking at the opp PER numbers, you should keep in mind that Salmons likely played most of his minutes at SG with Artest on the floor in 06/07 and 07/08, and played SF with defensive liability Kevin Martin on the floor)
The other question at least in my mind is can you afford to play Salmons at SF if you dump Deng. There were obviously long stretches where the Bulls were very effective offensively letting Gordon and Salmons take turns. The team scored an impressive 113.8 pts per 100 possessions in Salmons minutes in Chicago. But, playing Rose, Gordon, and Salmons is an unsustainable defensive disaster for a good team. The Bulls also gave up 112.7 points per 100 poss with Salmons on the floor. It's obviously not just the fault of Salmons. When Rose and/or Gordon was on the floor the team also gave up at least 110 pts per 100 poss. Salmons played about 75% of his minutes with Gordon and the team scored 105 points and gave up 104 points per 48 minutes in their minutes together. Rose, Gordon, and Salmons on the floor together is too poor defensively to be sustainable over the course of a season. Unfortunately Salmons just doesn't rebound well enough or contribute enough to the team defense to be starting at SF along with Gordon and Rose. If it was a different starting SG and PG than Rose and Gordon then starting Salmons at SF would be more feasible.
Going forward the Bulls can survive next season with Salmons at starting at SG. Defensively it's a good place to place him, especially in the East with all the big starting SGs. It's easier defensively for him to start at SG and then slide over during the game to backup the SF because most teams go smaller and quicker off the bench in the backcourt. That aren't a ton of starting SGs whose biggest threat is dribble oenetration. There are also less help responsibilities defensively at SG, especially if he's assigned to stay with a shooter. And offensively playing SG or SF hasn't really made any difference to Salmons based on his past history. Salmons can't replace Gordon's offense by himself, but he can at least fill the void enough that the Bulls can make up the difference in other areas, particularly on defense.
I see a lot proposed lineups with everyone back or at least Gordon and Deng starting, and Salmons coming off the bench. That's not something that's likely to work well for Salmons. There's a reason Sacramento has always been worse defensively with him on the floor, and that he was also an offense killer until this season. Bringing his offensive style into an already established game flow is a recipe for offensive distruption, and he has to score well enough to justify that distrubtion. And normally bringing a mediocre player off the bench isn't a big deal, but Salmons is the type of player that actively hurts his team with his mediocre play because of his ball dominance and turnover issues. I find myself in the strange position of being relatively content with Salmons starting at SG, but wanting no part of him as a starting SF or bench player.
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Comments
I don't necessarily buy that Salmons was a fluke this year, but I also just don't think he's that good. The Bulls should
sell high on him. I’m not sure what the best deal they could get for him is, but he’s around a -7 on adjusted plus minus this year and he’s been consistently ruddy awful on that metric for as long as they have publicly available data on it.
His defense is wildly overrated and so is his offense. He’s a ball stopper that takes bad shots. He’s pretty damned good at making those bad shots, all things considered, but he hurts the overall team efficiency by ruining the offensive flow and not making quick decisions. Watching the Magic (among others) this postseason I’ve been struck by just how well they make quick decisions and move the ball and find the open man. Guys like Salmons kill any chance of that, and it hurts the team.
I’d like to see Salmons wearing another uniform next year, in all honesty. I’d even be willing to completely salary dump him to a team with cap space for a pick, in order to free up space to keep Gordon. I’m not sure that any of the teams that have cap space (Pistons, OKC, or Memphis) have any real use for him, but that’s how low I am on this guy. I know that’s likely going to be a minority position around here, but I, like tyger, really don’t think a whole heckuva a lot of the things Salmons is bringing to the table.
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on May 27, 2009 8:21 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't think Salmons is good.
But, I think he can serve a useful purpose in a specific situation for one season without killing the team. I have no interest in seeing Salmons on this team past next season. And no interest in seeing Salmons on this team if Gordon is resigned. His scoring is just good enough for the Bulls to lose Gordon and still make the playoffs.
by Scotter on May 27, 2009 8:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's why I, and Doug Thonus, think it should be Salmons or Gordon, not Gordon or Hinrich.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on May 27, 2009 9:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
A couple of questions
How do you rationalize this post with a previous post concerning changing your mind to wanting to keep BG.
I don’t believe we can get to the ECF and beyond with Salmons or BG. Do you agree, and if so how do we unwind those two to get better?
by hlac on May 27, 2009 11:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The heart of that post was that I was excited to
to figure out a way to sign him with impacting 2010 free agency. The point of signing Gordon would be to trade him next summer. On the right contract Gordon is another asset to make deals with. I was excited about Gordon resigning because it would probably facilitate a sign and trade for Wade if that opportunity came up. But, Gordon resigning at the right price is a serious long shot. And letting him walk away for nothing is a better choice than locking him for 5 to 6 years with a contract that’s hard to trade.
by Scotter on May 28, 2009 1:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And this is why Doug and I both breath
"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."
- fundamentallysound
by J Theory on May 28, 2009 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't buy that a player with his numbers is still -7 APM
I know his basketballvalue APM this year and I think it’s a fluke, an unlucky result of noise.
Salmons shows up at -3.47 offensively and -2.08 defensively in the 07-08 5-year APMs. Since I haven’t seen anything to make me think his defense improved, let’s say the -2.08 is still accurate.
The -3.47 makes sense for a 5-year APM, because Salmons was downright horrible offensively from 2004 to 2006, with EOPMs of -2.87, -3.29, and -2.50. Factor in my estimate that EOPM overrates ballstoppers by 1.5-2.0pts, and -3.47 seems spot-on, even with the heavier weightings for recent years.
But his EOPMs in 2008 and 2009 were -0.74 and +1.55. Adjust it for ballstopping and he was +0 offensively this season. There’s no way he was -7 on the defensive end. My guess is Salmons is a -2 for next season – certainly not good, but well worth the money we’re paying him. And since we aren’t going to win a championship in the next year or two anyway, why not keep our inexpensive stopgap whose contract comes off the books soon? I like him starting at SG next year.
by YaoPau on May 27, 2009 8:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's a pretty coherent counterargument for why you keep Salmons for next year. That assumes he plays as well next year
as he did this year, which is a fairly reasonable assumption to make. I think he’s a little more likely to play slightly worse this year than next, but at a -3 he’s not too bad as a stop gap, but I’d prefer to trade him away for cap space + a pick and re-sign Ben Gordon with his money as Gordon is just entering his prime and has gotten better every year by most of the available data on APM, but you might have clearer or potentially less noisy means of determining that using your EOPM – which I think is great, btw.
I understand that it’s easier to just let Ben walk from a management perspective, but I don’t accept that just because something is easily done that it’s necessarily the right choice. Like I said, I’d rather part with Salmons (tyger’s trade below is something along the lines of what I’d like to see done) for a draft pick and cap space to sign Ben than keep him and lose Ben. If it’s Ben or Salmons rather than Ben or Hinrich, I’d rather see Salmons given his walking papers ten times out of ten.
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on May 27, 2009 11:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
damn it, "he's a little more likely to play slightly worse next year than this year" *
fixed.
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on May 27, 2009 11:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Since when is Ben so much better than Salmons?
Your statistical APMs have Gordon at 0.87 in 2007, -0.46 in 2008, +0.08 in 2009. I agree Ben’s an upgrade, but it’s slight, and $10 million a year for a +0/1 player seems awfully expensive.
Keeping Hinrich too would mean around $30 million a year for Hinrich-Gordon-Deng. Add Rose + Noah = $10 million, plus Tyrus’s extension, plus incoming rookie contracts, plus free agent roster fillers, and that leaves us basically nothing in 2010. If we keep Gordon, what’s the plan to turn our team into a contender?
by YaoPau on May 28, 2009 12:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
All those guys are assets, you package them for better players is the idea. Plus, there's no guarantee that we ever
have that opportunity to make the perfect leap up to contender (most teams aren’t contenders) and in the mean time, I’d like to watch some good, quality basketball, and Salmons does not play good basketball. He’s a ball hog and a weak defender. People have levied the same criticisms at Gordon, only with Salmons they are true, whereas with Ben only the defense thing is true (he’s actually a good passer and does so fairly often).
I also expect Ben to keep improving, because he’s still relatively young, he works incredibly hard, and he’s gotten better seemingly every year. I see no reason not to expect improvement from him. Salmons will almost certainly regress because he’s over the hill in terms of his career and this season has been an outlier for him, so there are very good reasons for doubting his ability to replicate this success. Plus, I don’t know that Salmons plays as well as a 2-guard as he does as a 3, for whatever reason.
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on May 28, 2009 12:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We disagree about Gordon's passing
I think he’s as mediocre at it as Salmons. Here’s their stats by position the last three years – Gordon with the Bulls, Salmons with the Kings:
Gordon’s per48 assist rates as a PG: 6.2 (2009), 6.9 (2008), 10.0 (2007)
Gordon’s per48 assist rates as a SG: 4.4, 3.9, 5.0
Gordon’s per48 assist rates as a SF: 3.9, N/A, 5.0
Salmons’ per48 assist rates as a PG: N/A, N/A, 6.4
Salmons’ per48 assist rates as a SG: 4.6, 4.2, 6.0
Salmons’ per48 assist rates as a SF: 4.8, 3.4, 5.1
Typically Gordon plays the vast majority of his minutes at SG, with about 15% of his minutes coming at point guard and slightly less at small forward. Salmons will play around 60% of his minutes at SG and 35% at SF.
When they’re playing the same position, SG, it’s Salmons that has the higher assist rate. Gordon pads his assist numbers when he plays point, but at SG/SF he deserves the ballhog/poor passer criticisms.
by YaoPau on May 28, 2009 12:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I stand corrected. I'll admit when I'm wrong, but I stand by my overall thesis that Gordon is both better and younger
than Salmons and as such we should keep the better asset and find a taker for the lesser asset that might appear to be gold to some other team (even if it’s really fool’s gold, which is what Salmons is). Buy low, sell high and such.
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on May 28, 2009 1:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What are you assuming Gordon signs for?
That’s the key to understanding where people are coming from. Gordon>Salmons is something that should be able to be agreed upon. Dumping Salmons is a perfectly fine move once you have Gordon is signed, but what’s it going to cost to sign Gordon? I don’t care about Jerry’s luxury tax money, but I do care about having cap space for a max contract next summer without having to dump another contract in addition to Salmons..
by Scotter on May 28, 2009 2:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think his 2010-2011 salary will be $7,762,395
Give or take half a million. $8.5 million per year, five years. That’s a difference of $2 million of what Salmons would make
YaoPau apparently thinks he’ll still get $10 million per year. Not sure why.
I was wrong in thinking he’d easily get his money again this year. I still don’t think it’s as bad as what D2.0 says and that no one will offer him above the MLE, but it’s not $10 mil/yr either.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on May 28, 2009 8:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you think Ben might benefit
by taking a risk and signing a one year deal?
By doing this he might benefit from any team who loses out in the summer of 2010. Let’s say Lebron ends up staying in Cleveland and Wade stays with Miami. You have teams like the Bulls and NY who have all this cap room that you can try to negotiate with.
Bad thing would be the economy worsens and the teams do not want to use up the money, injury, or other players are signed before you are and still gain a contract that does not suit you.
"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."
- fundamentallysound
by J Theory on May 28, 2009 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I assume it will be less than what he's already turned down based on a few things
the only teams that could sign him are OKC, Detroit, or Memphis.
Detroit won’t do it because they already have Hamilton and they are, presumably, targetting Boozer.
Memphis won’t do it because they are too cheap and because they already have Ben Gordon, he’s just going by the name of O.J. Mayo.
That leaves OKC, who just brought Thabo over and will likely not kill their cap for another scorer when they already have Durant and Westbrook. OKC is the most likely non-Bulls destination for Gordon, but I just don’t see it happening. So that leaves the Bulls in a position to offer Gordon nearly anything over the MLE that will be preferable to anything that Gordon likely has available on the FA market. Give him 7 or 8 million a year, maybe a little more, but not much more. Gordon at anywhere between 7 and 9 million is an absolute steal, and dumping Salmons to keep him is not a huge deal to me. Also, I have absolutely zero faith in the Bulls ability to sign a max free agent in the 2010 off-season, so that’s the assumption I’m operating under – to get Amare or Bosh, etc… they are going to have to do it through trade, so it makes no sense to me to let good players go for nothing – I don’t consider Salmons good, so I’ve no problem just dumping him to keep a better player.
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on May 28, 2009 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
some more moves need to be made
but I think the Raptors, Pacers, and TWolves are in play as well.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 28, 2009 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Pacers are hemorraghing money, IIRC. There's almost no way they do anything.
The Raptors and TWolves are real possibilities as well, you’re right.
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on May 28, 2009 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
30
Is not over the hill…..it’s PRIME.
God I hate the fact that we have been so far removed from really good veterans that we forget that our old Bulls teams had the key players all in the early to mid 30’s.
Look at the playoffs too….Shard’s what 29? Kobe’s 31, Pau’s 29, Odom’s 30? Billups 32-33, Martin’s 31,…..I know there’s Lebron, Melo, Howard…but the rest of the real key players are mostly in their PRIME…
I know it’s nice to say Joe X is 24 imagine what he’ll do at 28, and then at 28 while in his prime we need to trade hm immediately….cuz otherwise we’ll overpay for him like we did Ben Wallace…
If we continually view 30 year olds and soon to be 31 year olds as past their prime, the Bulls will forever be rebuilding….unless luck has it Lebron James Jr or Kobe Bryant Jr magically get drafted…..
I hope Derrick’s that good, but that’s a big hope.
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
by majoyenrac on May 28, 2009 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You just listed some of the best players in the game today.
They are the best because they are rare. They are the exceptions to the rule, not the rule. Why is that most role players and bench players on all of these teams are under 30? W/ the exception of the PG’s Fisher and Alston and the abnormally-size Ilgauskas….
Martin, the one non stud you mentioned, has changed his game significantly, and he’s not near as good as he used to be. He couldn’t be a primary player right now, but he was on the edge of being one five years ago. Kenyon Martin went from being an okay primary player to stud role player because he changed his game because he accepted that he was in decline and over the hill.
Unless you’re one of the top tier of players in the NBA (or a PG, apparently), 30 is over the hill and when players start to decline.
(Oh, and Gasol is 28, Odom 29, research and fact-based argument: FAIL)
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on May 28, 2009 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
tYGER
Again you’re a dick, but yeah I think I was guestimating around that range.
And no I’m mentioning guys who are good who put up numbers in a similar vein to Salmons of late….last I knew Odom, Lewis weren’t exactly best players in the game, they were good, solid better than average players who have a lot of potential.
All this guys can’t be 30 and play in b.s. and a bad sign of the high school draftee era in the NBA.
Paxson keeps saying this in interviews and he’s right. Prime tends to be between 29-32….PER Pax, and correct me if I’m wrong, but I certainly think John Paxson has a lot more bball knowledge than Tyger1147….as crazy as that might sound to you.
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
by majoyenrac on Jun 1, 2009 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude, I know you're never wrong. It's okay.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Jun 1, 2009 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You shouldn't "guesstimate" on a range when we're talking specifics.
It’s so dumb… I don’t get why you would try to prove your point w/ “facts” and then just guess as to what those facts are. How… does that actually make sense to you? Does that work in your world? I honestly don’t understand the thinking that goes like this:
I know for certain that this person is wrong.
I will prove how they are wrong using facts.
I will guess at my facts.
Here are my facts that I guessed at and they are not real facts as they are wrong.
I have proven my point.
What the fuck? Seriously?
And Odom and Lewis are not the same as John Salmons. They might not be super-duper stars, but they are both among the best in the game. They have had years of consistent, good production. Salmons has one. That makes a difference in projecting how someone does going forward.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Jun 1, 2009 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I believe John Hollinger has said in the past that his library of PER data shows that most players peak between 27-29. Of course, this tends to change on a player-to-player basis, with height being the most important factor. Small players peak earlier, tall ones (that can shoot) later.
by msquared10 on Jun 2, 2009 10:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You still think Gordon signs for $10 million a year?
If you honestly do, then keep throwing it that out there. However, if you don’t think that’s likely, I’d suggest not using that exaggeration in your argument. Don’t be dishonest
I would have liked Ben Gordon signed at $50/5 last year because, a year from now, he’d have 3 years, $32.6 million left and wouldn’t be a trade obstacle at all. If he signs for roughly $8 million year, I don’t think that’s going to look all that bad to a team for a 18+ ppg scorer who who shoots > 55 TS%
You keep forgetting that a sign-and-trade nets the incoming player roughly > $22 million more in guaranteed money. Why would Dwyane Wade leave Miami to make $30 million less in Chicago (or whatever the state income tax comes out to?). A sign-and-trade is still going to be the best option in getting a player to come to Chicago. If the Bulls lose Gordon, what to do they have to trade? Hinrich? Deng? And then they’ll have to find yet more starters.
Keep the good players, stay good, make the cap situation work later.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on May 28, 2009 8:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Has Gordon's value ever been higher?
I’m wondering why you think he won’t get $10 mil after averaging 24.3ppg against the Celtics in a hugely publicized series. Maggette got 5 years 48 mil last season, Ellis got 5 years 55 mil, and I’d think Gordon’s respective value is higher than either’s was.
Because of the bad economy, I doubt he gets higher than Ellis’s 11mil per, but I’d expect 5 years, 50 mil – especially with some teams in more competitive situations (Detroit, Atlanta, OKC, Toronto) under the cap.
You make a good point about needing a sign-and-trade to get Wade, I’d hoped the draw of going to back to his hometown, joining an already established roster would be enough for Wade to pass up the extra cash. Maybe not, and maybe the same goes with Bosh and Johnson.
I guess the main reason why I don’t want Gordon re-signed is because I don’t think he’s that good and it puts us in a position where we’d have to make a blockbuster deal to win a title. I can’t see a Rose/Gordon backcourt with a Tyrus/Noah frontcourt winning a title, too many backcourt defensive issues, frontcourt offensive issues, and overall terrible defensive rebounding. Wipe him off the books now and it forces us to bring in one or more replacements.
We differ about the last point. I’ve seen Matt type the “Keep the good players, stay good, make the cap situation work later” a few times, but I don’t subscribe to it. Why give someone a megadeal just to keep as a trade piece, when he’s 1) not that good and 2) a terrible fit with our star talent? If you want to trade Gordon, try to work out a sign and trade this offseason (for Kwame + Amir Johnson, then cut Kwame?).
by YaoPau on May 28, 2009 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"we’d have to make a blockbuster deal to win a title"
I don’t see how that’s more far-fetched than trying to get under the cap and acquiring a max player.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 28, 2009 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't see any team with a Tyrus/Noah frontcourt winning a title
Relatedly, the “established roster” part of getting Wade is sort of undercut by this. Who are the “established” players on the Bulls that Wade would want to come play with?
The established, quality players on the Bulls are Rose, Gordon, Hinrich, Miller, and, if healthy, Deng. I don’t think Noah or Tyrus are there yet. Personally I don’t think Tyrus ever will be, but I think Noah eventually might get there. But Miller is probably falling out of that status with age, and Deng needs a turnaround. And, crucially, Gordon and Hinrich would basically be gone with Wade coming. And none of those guys, besides Rose potentially, are established as guys I think are thought of as real stars around the league. Perhaps Gordon as a shot-maker, but he’s not a consistently all-star type player.
All of which is to say, if I were Wade, I wouldn’t be looking at coming to Chicago as coming to an established team. It’ll be coming to a team that needs significant improvements at other positions to be a contender, even after getting Wade.
by Sports2 on May 28, 2009 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, what do you think gives us the better chance of getting Wade/Bosh/Johnson
Signing Ben, or having $15+ million of cap space?
by YaoPau on May 28, 2009 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Joe Johnson?!?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 28, 2009 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You don't think Johnson's an upgrade over Gordon?
He’s a fantastic passer and better defender, I really like how he fits with Rose.
by YaoPau on May 28, 2009 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's also become an increasingly 1-dimensional scorer
There is no upside to tying your cap space up in Joe Johnson if you don’t have an All-Star in the frontcourt.
That Steve Nash is exactly the same as Kirk Hinrich, but worse.
by NBA Observer on Apr 8, 2009 12:23 PM CDT
by Ozzie Montana on May 28, 2009 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Johnson is an upgrade (2 years older, but he should age alright)
but you’re not advocating swapping the two. You’re saying let Gordon walk, wait a year, hope you’re under the cap, hope that Johnson wants to leave, hope that he’d want to be a Bull, hope that he’d wait for the Bulls to go through the 7 weeks to draft a max contract over (paying him until he’s 35), then wait for Reinsdorf to fly and meet him a couple times…
he’s not THAT much of an upgrade.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 28, 2009 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, we're a long shot to win the title either way
I could see a Rose/Johnson/Deng/Tyrus/Noah team winning a title, provided we have a strong bench. That’s a very pass-friendly offense, and Johnson’s the kind of guy who can take over an offense if needed, but also play an effective 2nd fiddle to Rose (Johnson did it in Phoenix). That also looks like an above-average defensive team.
To me, Rose-Deng-Noah is a strong 1-2-3. Going by actual APM, I could see all three at 4/5 in a few years. But fitwise, I think we need a capable playmaker who can defend on ball at either SG or PF, take your pick, to get to the next level.
by YaoPau on May 28, 2009 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm a bit confused with your motivation
saying that the current group can’t win a title so start letting guys walk is decidely simmons-ian (i.e., only pay 12 players in the entire league), yet you advocate getting worse for a team that doesn’t sound too great either (i.e. same team with Johnson for Gordon).
I guess to answer your question I’d take the upgrade at PF, if the SG is Joe Johnson, and the Bulls have a good SG in hand. The plan to similarly slash and woo Dwayne Wade is at least a juicer carrot.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 28, 2009 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and I admit a lot of this has to do with my faith in the Bulls motivations
to me, if they’re letting BG go, it’s for no other reason than staying under the tax. They value that more than any basketball reason.
It won’t be because they have a grand scheme to land a max free agent. If that was the case they’d deal Hinrich, Salmons, or Deng too. They won’t, because they’ll hold on to their surging finish and ridding themselves of the ball-stopper, and VDN’s development as a coach, and get to 41 wins again, yet making sure they don’t signal to the fans they are taking a couple steps back in a master plan.
Not that I think taking steps back to one day have the chance to acquire Joe Johnson is a great plan either, but at least it’d be a plan. To me it’s almost like any 2010 plan is just retro-explaining the Bulls cheaping out.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 28, 2009 4:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it's just our valuing Gordon/Johnson differently
I see Gordon as basically a plus 0/1 player offensively, someone who negates his freakish talent with his me-me-me style. His 5-year offensive APM came out to +0.10, while Johnson’s was +1.90. And that’s with Gordon playing higher impact positions (SG with occasional PG) than Johnson (SG with occasional SF) and with Johnson having two mediocre offensive years in 04 and 05.
Johnson’s APMs the last two years were +6.31 and +9.82, Gordon’s were +2.66 and -8.84 … and I think the major difference is passing ability. Johnson averaged an impressive 7.8 assists per 48 at shooting guard this year, Gordon 4.4. The Hawks had an increase of +7% buckets assisted with Johnson on the floor compared to -5% for the Bulls with Gordon.
Bringing Johnson in next to Rose completely changes the way our offense works. We’d have two guys who can handle, shoot, drive, and pass, and I think it opens up opportunites for Luol, Tyrus, and Noah that weren’t there with Rose and Gordon doing their Iverson/Carmelo impressions this year. I think Johnson’s a big step up from Gordon, and I’d pay him big money if Wade and Bosh fall through.
by YaoPau on May 28, 2009 4:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
this still isn't enough to convince me
that I should be content with letting Gordon walk for the privilege of waiting a year (a year where I have to actually watch the team play, mind you) hoping a bunch of other things go right, and then getting Joe Johnson.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 28, 2009 4:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, YaoPau, PG is traditionally a very weak position, on average, for APM. SFs almost always, on average, have higher average APM than do PGs.
And that’s with Gordon playing higher impact positions (SG with occasional PG) than Johnson (SG with occasional SF) and with Johnson having two mediocre offensive years in 04 and 05.
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on May 29, 2009 9:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I said "average" too many times, but the point stands.
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on May 29, 2009 9:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"play an effective 2nd fiddle to Rose (Johnson did it in Phoenix). "
and he liked it so much he begged to go to Atlanta to be a #1 option.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 28, 2009 4:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Joe Johnson is wildly overrated.
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on May 28, 2009 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's wildly overrated by the generalpublic.
But, he’s also better than his box score stats. The only problem is that he’s a 2nd tier star that will end up getting paid like a 1st tier star.
by Scotter on May 28, 2009 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
In what way?
He’s one of the league’s best offensive SGs and he’s a capable defender, putting him ahead of the Redds, Gordons, and Martins. Nobody said he was Wade, but he deserves his place in the 2nd tier.
by YaoPau on May 28, 2009 5:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
are you giving 2nd tiers max deals?
(I’m not saying that’s a steadfast rule not to, just curious)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 28, 2009 5:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd consider it for Johnson
I think when a team’s one piece away, it’s worth it to overpay for a 2nd tier talent. The Magic did it with Rashard Lewis, probably a 3rd tier talent, and there’s a good chance now they win in all two years later.
by YaoPau on May 28, 2009 7:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I understand the implication here
you think the Bulls (in 2010) are just one piece away. At what point before then do we trade for a superstar frontcourt player?
by Sports2 on May 28, 2009 8:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why do you think we need one?
Rose, Joe Johnson, and Noah would give us three all-star caliber players. Tyrus and Deng would be as good as any 4th+5th men in the league. Surround that team with a few good bench players (Asik? Maybe Blair or Terrence Williams?) and we compete.
by YaoPau on May 28, 2009 9:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because you don't win titles with two good guards and role players up front.
You think much more highly of these guys than I do. I thought I was on the high end of liking Noah. I like Noah quite a bit, but I think it’s pretty far-fetched to call him an all-star. Perhaps he makes an all-star game, but in terms of where I’d place him, I can think of at least 5 other relatively young eastern conference big guys I’d take over him without thinking about it at all (Lebron, Bosh, Howard, Perkins, Bogut, Horford). Factor in the older ones who are obviously better (KG), influx of talent over the next few years, and various other decent players who might have good seasons and are at least in the same conversation (Perkins, Josh Smith, Lopez, Bargnani), I think you’re being very optimistic.
I’m just gonna remain mum on Tyrus, but I don’t think he’ll be better than Deng, and I don’t think he’s solidly in the upper tier of PFs in the league.
I think putting together a real contending team is boringly simple. It’s not a secret. The problem, and the reason everyone tries goes overboard in other directions and deviates from the plan, is that it’s exceedingly hard to actually do.
To win, combine the following ingredients
1. Three kinds of offensive threats
A. Inside
B. Dribble Drive
C. Shooter
2. Three kinds of defensive staples
A. Physical inside presence
B. Inside help defense
C. A competent perimeter defender
3. The Cohesion and reliability of experience
I’d defy anyone to find a consistently contending team that deviates far from that formula.
Running through the list, the big problem I see for the Bulls is inside. I don’t see how the Tyrus/Noah combo ever gets to the point it satisfy’s 2.A. or 1.A.
by Sports2 on May 28, 2009 9:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jordan's Bulls didn't have an inside scoring threat
with Rodman/Longley inside. I wouldn’t say the 2004 Pistons had an inside scoring threat… Rasheed Wallace had a 49.5 TS% that season with the team and 47.9 TS% in the playoffs.
The Kobe/Shaq Lakers didn’t have a third offensive threat, unless you count Derek Fisher and his 11.5ppg. The Heat didn’t have one in 2006.
The Suns competed for a long time without a dribble drive starter, the Kings did the same without a post scorer, and the Nets made two Finals runs without… any of that.
I’d like a DaJuan Blair type to complement Tyrus and Noah inside, but I think good teams win basketball games, not teams that fit a certain formula.
I think you’re underestimating Noah. He’ll definitely be worse than Horford and Bogut? Look at the Advanced Stats here to see how he compares. You could make a good case that he’s already been better than those two, and because of his frame and complete lack of skill he’s got the most room for growth.
by YaoPau on May 28, 2009 11:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But they did have the Triangle
which made Jordan an inside threat because the Triangle allowed him to easily post up…which is why I’m such a fan of the Triangle. But if the current Bulls did use the Triangle, they would still have to learn to play defense…which brings us to the other Bulls’ issue concerning coaching…
by hlac on May 28, 2009 11:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
C'mon
Regarding the title formula:
- MJ was a special case of a guard who was definitively an inside scoring threat. He was the best post-up guard ever, I think, by a healthy margin. And playing in the triangle.
- I didn’t say a team definitively needed three players, they need the three abilities. Shaq inside. Kobe dribble-drive and to some extent shooting. Guys like Fisher spreading the floor.
- Likewise, I wouldn’t suggest you need all of those things equally. If you’ve got Kobe and Shaq on the floor, having Derek Fisher as your primary shooter is more plausible. He fills the role. (Contrast that to, say, a situation where you’ve got Noah/Thomas/ Deng, Wade, Rose… I think Deng/Wade/Rose are all better in the abstract than Derek Fisher, but that’s a team almost completely devoid of the stretch the floor capability).
- Suns? Are you referring to the late 80s model that didn’t win anything or the early 2000 model that came closes when they had Amare and Joe Johnson? Nets are indeed an outlier, but hardly one I’d look to model (or see how we could model).
- Importantly, you’re focusing only on the offensive aspect of the formula. Those teams you mention certainly had the imposing big guys the Bulls don’t have and don’t project to have.
The formula doesn’t drive teams to be good. Good teams indicate the formula. Good teams are good because they win. Winning in basketball becomes formulaic because there are certain things that are more conducive to winning basketball games to others. Balanced, multi-dimensional offense. A defense that controls the paint, controls the ball, and works outward from there.
Again, it’s simple to the point of being boring, but that doesn’t mean it’s not true. The fact that a guy as talented as Jason Kidd occasionally straps a team to his back that only has 5 of the 6 factors I mentioned and leads them to a losing finals appearance or two doesn’t change that.
Regarding Noah, I have to say that your argument is the first time I’ve ever seen a “complete lack of skill” held out as some sort of advantage. My understanding of him is pretty different. He’s actually pretty skilled in terms of his passing and frequently his technique. His frame, however, I don’t see as any sort of advantage to. My understanding is most folks think he’s not gonna support much more mass. Which, again, puts him at a significant disadvantage against those other guys.
This isn’t to say i think Noah can’t be a successful part of a great team. But I think ideally he needs to play next to a guy who’s both relatively big and strong and relatively impressive offensively.
by Sports2 on May 29, 2009 8:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd say Garnett barely played inside.
The Suns were good w/o Joe Johnson, too.
But against YaoPau’s point regarding them, Steve Nash most certainly was a dribble-driver. He didn’t attempt to finish at the rim very often, but he certainly broke down defenses, drew interior help defenders and had the passing ability to get his teammates great looks. And, of course, he was their ridiculously good shooter.
The Pistons are the better example of a team that didn’t have an inside scoring threat not a dribble-driver. They did have good, if not great, shooters, though. They basically lacked anything in the formula for the offensive side. They were just so… damn… good… on defense as to almost be unbelievable.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on May 29, 2009 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Noah is already much, much better than Porkins.
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on May 30, 2009 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that's a bit of an overstatement.
"Vinny continues to act like a crazed arsonist pouring gasoline on our season while running around carrying a torch yelling 'I’m in charge. Don’t any of you foolish knaves try to second guess me. I know gasoline is a liquid but I’m pretty sure it isn’t flammable and the odor gives me a natural high.'" - Tyrusmancrush
by Illini15 on May 30, 2009 1:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Man... he didn't look much, much better in that 7 game playoff series
They looked extremely even statistically, but when you figure in the fact that Noah is skinny, gets pushed around and is generally seen smoking down while Perkins looks like he was carved out of a mountain, I think he’s a pretty safe bet.
Again, defensive muscle means a lot to me.
Another thing… let’s not dismiss just how far Noah needs to come to have even a remotely respectable shot. In comparing these two guys, look at
Noah: 6% jumpers. eFG .227
Porkins: 29% jumpers. eFG .409
By the way:
Tyrus: 55% jumpers. eFG .350
I know I’ve gone crazy looking at these stats over the last week or so, but I find them pretty telling. When Kendrick Porkins has a demonstrably better jumper than both your starting big guys, you need to improve your big guys.
Again, that doesn’t mean I don’t like Noah. I like him, and I think he’ll improve. He’ll get stronger, and hopefully his jumper can be molded into something respectable. But those are not sure things, at all.
by Sports2 on May 30, 2009 9:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're going crazy over those stats?
A year ago he made 27% of his jumpers. The two seasons before that he was making 35%. Tyrus made 38% of his jumpers from December on. Not great, but considering he took 193 shots outside of 15 feet and Perk took a grand total of 11, I think that’s far more impressive than what Perkins did. And certainly not demonstrably better.
It’s not a stretch to say that Noah is a better player than Perkins and impacts the game in more ways. The “much much” was an overstatement, but so was anointing Perkins the superior jump shooter.
by Scotter on May 30, 2009 10:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was an overstatement, but allow Noah to play for two years
with Kevin Garnett and I’m betting that he looks much, much better than what Perkins currently does.
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on May 31, 2009 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Doesn't matter. Perkins doesn't become the player he is today
without KG. Just doesn’t happen.
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on Jun 1, 2009 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The superior jump shooter to Tyrus, right? Perkins vs. Tyrus
I’d concede that in the narrow sense, sure. I mean, Tyrus has a lot more demonstrated range on his jumper, and is obviously a lot more comfortable taking them.
I’m not necessarily sure that’s a good thing though, given the results.
But to me, I’m trying to look at it in context of what you want these guys doing. I’d say Perkins’ jump shot is acceptable, given that he’s a defensive-minded 280lb center. If he’s improving out to the elbows to the point he has to be respected, that’s good.
For your 220lb power forward who likes to hoist jumpers from all over the court, I think it’s pretty difficult to argue that he makes them at an acceptable clip. It’s sort of like saying Allen Iverson is a better jump shooter than Luol Deng because he shoots it that much more frequently and from range. Sure, AI is a better jump shooter in that sense, but there are some significant drawbacks to his firing away vs. Deng’s playing limiting him self to shooting shots he reliably makes.
At the end of the day, that’s the important thing.
by Sports2 on Jun 1, 2009 9:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The most important difference isn't just range, it's
sample size. 82games includes a significant number of very short jumpers in Perk’s jumpshot total. According to his hotspots he only took 74 shots outside of 8 feet or 16% of his FGA. And he shot 38% on those shots. And that’s by far the most jumpers he’s ever taken in his career and the most accurate he’s ever been in his 7th NBA season.
That 38% that Tyrus shot for the vast majority of the season isn’t great long term, but it also isn’t horrible either. It’s pretty close to the league average. And decent for a 22 year old PF.
I get the point, but you also can’t have two guys on the floor that are unwilling to take a shot outside of 8 feet either. Thomas has to take most of those jumpers and he just has to make more. Predicting his shooting to improve over the course of his career isn’t a risky proposition.
by Scotter on Jun 1, 2009 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Im surprised you like him
since his TS% is and always has been poor, and, at least in the past, TS% has been your thing.
by TheMoon on May 28, 2009 5:21 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I thought too much.
I made a FanPost.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on May 28, 2009 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Signing BG for around $8million/year...
What team would be willing to sign BG for $7,999,999/year? If you can’t identify a team that would, then why would the Bulls be inclined to sign him for a dollar more. The most the Bulls should be willing to pay BG is one dollar more than anyone else would. As several posts on this Fanpost have stated, BG will be hard pressed to get more than the MLE. Why would the Bulls offer much more than that?
(Assuming the Bulls have learned the Nocioni econ lesson, which maybe isn’t a sure thing given Deng)
by hlac on May 28, 2009 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you're Gordon, would you stay in Chicago for only a $1 more per year?
If it’s me (remember, I’m a jerk), I’d turn down anything from the Bulls that’s not more than $500,000 than what I’m offered somewhere else. Let Reinsdorf whine yet again while his team wins no more games next year. And I take the 3-year deal somewhere else, hoping the economy and cap situation improve when I’m entering my 29th year.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on May 28, 2009 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
I could see him taking a small financial hit to go elsewhere if it means he’s guaranteed a role.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 28, 2009 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And never has to think about Jerry Reinsdorf again
by Sports2 on May 28, 2009 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
BJ Armstrong once said he was amazed when the GM of the Warriors took him out to dinner
He actually thought the way the Sleuth and Reinsdorf handled the Bulls was the standard by which all teams were ran.
That Steve Nash is exactly the same as Kirk Hinrich, but worse.
by NBA Observer on Apr 8, 2009 12:23 PM CDT
by Ozzie Montana on May 28, 2009 2:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
the Bulls ownership used to be regarded as extremely player friendly
but it seems like they’re still living off the jordan rules era where they were the first team to charter a team plane and such. Pax mentions it all the time how many advantages “today’s player’s” have. Maybe they technically should be more appreciative, but it seems more and more like the rest of the league caught up to them in terms of ‘luxury’, and the Bulls don’t offer much else except being darned good at their own profit…inherently not a player friendly concept.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 28, 2009 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed, I think they have a terrible reputation among NBA locker rooms
It’s why the biggest FA acquisition they have made was Ben Wallace, and it only happened because he hated Flip Saunders and loved money.
They are living off the 6 championships, and the only allure I can see drawing players here is the active after-hours scene.
That Steve Nash is exactly the same as Kirk Hinrich, but worse.
by NBA Observer on Apr 8, 2009 12:23 PM CDT
by Ozzie Montana on May 28, 2009 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Beyond that, I doubt the aftermath of the Ben Wallace acquisition has done much to improve things
I get the sense Wallace is, though not deservedly, a well respected player.
by Sports2 on May 28, 2009 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
After you lose, you can forget about it, cut some players,
then lose some more.
Mmm drinking.
Three things you must know:
-"Ben Gordon is a bundle of muscle and clutch. That's all he's made of. Drink BG7 energy drink, you'll grow a pair of balls on your balls."
-Pau Gasol: The defense of a seven foot ladder paired with the post presence of Manute Bol.
-Joakim Noah is better than you.
by Prevenge on May 29, 2009 12:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was remiss in not answering your question immediately,
which is to say you’re not a jerk
by hlac on May 28, 2009 2:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why not Detroit?
Hamilton is 31 years old, and Project Stuckey has been a disaster. They need a go-to scorer, and they have cash galore. They have the cash for both Gordon and Boozer.
by YaoPau on May 28, 2009 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
plus, imagine the Vinny Johnson comparisons!
I agree, Detroit is in play. That Hamilton extension looks real crummy though.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 28, 2009 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I don't see Ben going to Detroit to go sit on the bench behind Hamilton. If they offer him a chance to start at PG
with Hamilton in the backcourt, then sure, maybe he goes there. I just think Joe D is planning on rebuilding on the fly by acquiring a big man and he’s not viewing signing a guy on Gordon’s level in their backcourt as a big enough priority to forego that goal of acquiring the aforementioned big guy. They do have loads of cap space, so who knows? Gordon could be a Piston. If they want to overpay Gordon to play PG for them, then more power to them, I guess, but I’m dubious that they do that.
One other thing I’ve been thinking about more and more lately – are we convinced that Kirk Hinrich couldn’t be the starting two guard next to Rose? For sure? He’s the best perimeter defender on the team and he regained his shooting stroke this year. If he cuts down on his tendency to pound the ball into oblivion he might be a legitimate option to be the Raja Bell, Bruce Bowen type (except way, way better and more versatile than those guys ever were) that just bombs threes and locks up the other team’s best perimeter player. He’s convinced me that he can still shoot by returning to form this year and again his defense is great. Rose needs someone to make up for his pitfalls there and Rose should be dominating the ball as much as possible on offense and hitting open shooters. I’m not convinced completely, but I’m leaning towards the view that if Gordon does get overpaid by some other team that Hinrich could play the off-guard relatively easily.
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on May 28, 2009 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hinrich as SG
was this past year’s fait acompli that ended up not being fait acompli because he ended up being not very good at it. I mean, isn’t it pretty obvious the Bulls would have loved it if he’d come anywhere close to justifying himself as starting over Gordon?
Even if Gordon leaves, that just means we’re left with a player that’s an adequate at best starter overall. I don’t think we’re a good enough team to win with an adequate player. And as a general philosophy, I actually want to get the best players we can. Isn’t this just a restatement of the “we don’t want too many good players” meme?
Why didn’t he stop pounding the ball into oblivion this year?
Like Deng, I don’t dislike Kirk, but the general like for him is what’s sustaining him as a Bull at this point, and not any compelling basketball rationale I can see. It’s like… he’d be ok there because he’s a good player. Especially if we run off all the better options.
Scientist: [resigned] Well, Homer, I guess you’re the winner by default.
Homer: Default? Woo hoo! The two sweetest words in the English
language: de-fault! De-fault! De-fault!
by Sports2 on May 28, 2009 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hinrich started only one game at SG this season, and that's the game he was injured in.
The season began with the Thabo experiment, not Hinrich starting.
Hinrich did nothing, but play well with Rose all season. I don’t see a need to start him, but I also don’t see a problem with playing him 25 minutes at SG off the bench along with his 10 minutes at point.
by Scotter on May 28, 2009 4:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"are we convinced that Kirk Hinrich couldn’t be the starting two guard next to Rose? "
oh god, yes yes yes. It took a very nice finish from him this season to convince me he was average again.
Also, the perception of his defense has ballooned, IMO. Likely because on this squad it looks so marvelous that he even tries, or has an idea as to what to do. He’s never going to be good enough on D to be the designated stopper.
Also, make sure we get the Spurs and Suns roster first then get the Bowen or Bell.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 28, 2009 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with the last sentiment
When Tyrus learns how to finish as well as Amare, or Deng can go for 40 minutes a game like Marion doing everything besides filling up the Gatorade, I’ll buy into the concept of having a limited option at SG who would still be undersized.
That Steve Nash is exactly the same as Kirk Hinrich, but worse.
by NBA Observer on Apr 8, 2009 12:23 PM CDT
by Ozzie Montana on May 28, 2009 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Gordon may sign for $10M
To get the $60M contract….other teams to match would have to have a 5 year $60M deal at $12M per year….
I think his value is between $9-12M, and given the economy, folks aren’t likely to go on the high….and given that BG seems to want to come back, built a rapport with both Noah and Rose (2 of our starters) and Deng seems to want him to play for Britain….I think BG’s comfortable in Chicago and would make good money here, so I think he’s staying.
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
by majoyenrac on Jun 1, 2009 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"If we keep Gordon, what’s the plan to turn our team into a contender?"
Is your plan getting under the cap in 2010 and hoping a max free agent comes?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 28, 2009 9:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you think Toronto has any interest?
- + Salmons for the #9? If the Raptors think they’re going to keep Bosh around and try to go this season again with Bosh, Bargnani and Calderon, Salmons + Terrance Williams would be ten times better (not technically, I wouldn’t think) than DeRozan or Henderson alone. He’ll be far better than Joey Graham and probably a lot cheaper than Shawn Marion. And if they renounce Shawn Marion, Joey Graham, Anthony Parker and Garbajosa (or sign them to a combined salary to less than $9 million, they should be able to do it without giving salary back.
Of course, I have no clue how that exactly works with draft in June and the new FA season starting in July.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on May 27, 2009 9:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know if it works either, but that's exactly the sort of deal I'd like to see them make. I've no problem with salary dumping Salmons
and only getting a pick for him, if it means we keep Ben. Salmons simply isn’t that good.
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on May 27, 2009 11:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Raptors won't have cap space tyger until the July Moratorium is lifted
It’s really important to note that that if your’e talking about the Raptors having the space to absorb Salmons salary, it probably would have to wait until July to complete the trade.
That’s how the Jermaine O’Neal/Tj Ford trade happened. It had to be put on hold because Ford was BYC until July 1st and then the July Moratorium kicked in.
Even then, I can’t believe the Raptors would really greatly prefer Salmons to Terrence Williams or DeMar DeRozan.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on May 28, 2009 2:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really? Even if they think "winning now" is their only possible way to keep Bosh?
I’d agree that if I thought Bosh were absolutely for sure out there door, DeRozan or Henderson or even Williams would be the better choice (although I don’t like DeRozan that much, actually).
However, if they wanted to win next year, I’d take Salmons and count taking the best remaining player of Williams, Henderson, Earl Clark or even James Johnson. Calderon, Salmons, Williams, Bosh and Bargnani isn’t scaring anyone, but it’s probably the best team they can put on the floor.
Hell, then all they’d need for the next year, after Bosh does leave (lol), is to sign-and-trade him for Gordon and Tyrus Thomas (somehow) and they’d be the new Bulls. Or something.
So okay, I thought about that trade scenario. How does that actually work? Would they just agree “in principle” to the trade, and make the picks for each other or something?
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on May 28, 2009 9:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think there are too many moving pieces to rely on
You can’t just start making high picks for another team and then hope sign and trades work out. Too much risk involved there. I can’t think of any instances where that has happened.
Moreover, because Bosh is the guy I want the most and who seems to have the highest odds of wanting a new destination, I wouldn’t be doing Toronto any favors whatsoever.
I would, however, give them free run of our roster and picks excepting Derek Rose.
by Sports2 on May 29, 2009 8:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It worked last year with Toronto & Indiana
It could work with Chicago. But both sides have to work out the trade in principle, and know what each side expects. It’s also wise to let news “leak” rather than keep it secret.
Here’s the difference: Do you trust Chicago not to try & swindle Toronto after the fact? No, me either. I put nothing past Garpaxdorf.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on May 29, 2009 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
it depends
is there a weepy phone call from a ‘son’ of Reinsdorf between the draft and July 1st?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 29, 2009 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you really want me to write this all out Matt?
Cmon now, you don’t want me to make Bulls fan suffer more than they already are.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on May 29, 2009 4:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That didn't involve a sign and trade
just draft picks and players under contract.
With a sign and trade you’ve got another order of magnitude of difficulty, because you’re basically asking a player to skip free agency and pre-commit to a contract of a given amount. Why on earth would a player do that?
by Sports2 on May 29, 2009 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know why a player would do that
I would be pretty shocked if Salmons didn’t opt out in 2010, but then again, it may not make a difference. He might stand to make more money over the longer haul by staying in his contract.
That’s sort of the problem you have when you’re talking about a guy like Salmons.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on May 29, 2009 4:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wasn't talking about a sign-and-trade this year.
Sorry for not making that clearer.
Basically, I was saying that the Bulls are going to be talking to Toronto for the next month about making the trade of picks, Deng, Thomas, Noah, etc. You’ll have a pretty good idea whether they’re going to trade him this off-season by the time the draft rolls around.* Once you get there, on draft day you trade Salmons and the 16 for the number 9 pick, which is the deal they’d have to agree to “in principle.”
The other stuff about the sign-and-trade was just goofing, trying to figure out if dual sign-and-trades were even possible. For me, the two deals are mostly independent of each other, except that if they took Salmons, it would indicate that they probably aren’t going to trade Bosh this summer.
*This doesn’t mean that they can’t change their mind after the July 1 FA comes around, but the Bulls would be in the same position as most other teams, having not given up much.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on May 29, 2009 5:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, they are the raptors
I could see it!
Three things you must know:
-"Ben Gordon is a bundle of muscle and clutch. That's all he's made of. Drink BG7 energy drink, you'll grow a pair of balls on your balls."
-Pau Gasol: The defense of a seven foot ladder paired with the post presence of Manute Bol.
-Joakim Noah is better than you.
by Prevenge on May 29, 2009 12:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Part of this might depend on what's available at the 16.
I could envision a scenario – for instance let’s imagine Terrance Williams is there at 16 – where the Raptons pick Blair at 9, then we trade them Salmons and Williams for Blair when the July moratorium expires. We get the money to resign BG plus a banger that we need.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on May 28, 2009 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's my ideal situation. Exactly what I want.
Barring a Bosh trade or something like that.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on May 28, 2009 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bulls scored 113.8 per 100 possessions
And gave up 112.7….
To me that’s good, a + equals wins…
Rose will improve defensively (has to and seems every bit capable of given work ethic and pure athleticism/strength) and that should widen that gap.
To me this proves…Salmons shoudl stick aruond.
Granted with Deng we might give up 111.7 pts over 100 possessions, but are likely to score 110.7 (Salmons scores more :) ).
I know that’s simplified and I personally think Salmons is every bit as solid a defender as Luol (just that Salmons hasn’t been with us for 5 years….so doesn’t get the BaB, I love Deng hype).
Deng’s good, Salmons is good. Salmons played better with our bigs…and so he’s older….he’s a helluva lot cheaper and his position seems for the production to be an easier thing to fill….
I think we’re silly to not do our best to unload Deng….and ONLY keep Deng if BG leaves from his own doing or if we can’t trade Luol….
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
by majoyenrac on May 28, 2009 10:42 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I started to comment on this several times but wound up giving up.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 28, 2009 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm pretty sure there are like 10 regular readers of this blog who still think Deng belongs in a Bulls uniform
Let’s not even bring up the casual Bulls fans, many of whom I know disliked Deng even during 2007.
That Steve Nash is exactly the same as Kirk Hinrich, but worse.
by NBA Observer on Apr 8, 2009 12:23 PM CDT
by Ozzie Montana on May 28, 2009 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If only we spent like the Knicks
Then it’d be fine to keep Deng. Deng can be a very useful player, just not for the near 13 million a year he’ll make for the remaining 5 years of his deal. If he was on a deal for 7-8 million per year average it’d be an interesting question.
by dougthonus on May 28, 2009 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If he's healthy, he's worth every penny. It's just that his health is a big, big question mark. If you can get someone equivalently
good then you make a deal, but I don’t think you dump Deng just because you’re concerned about his health. You’ve got to be somewhat optimistic about that. He’s had some bad luck with injuries, but I’m not sure I’m ready to tag him as injury prone or frail yet. If he insists on playing for GB every year though, I might change my tune, because I think that has a lot to do with his problems.
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton
by fundamentallysound on May 28, 2009 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

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