[From the FanShots - anyone who got all excited that Gar said signing Ben is priority # 1 probably isn't going to like JR's take on things. -wjb]
"He was prepared to sign last year at the end, but after he turned down our offer, we thought about it and thought about it and decided it was in our best interest just to go one year with Ben," Reinsdorf said. "We informed him of that, at which time his agent came back and said, 'We'll take your prior offer.' We said it was too late. It's off the table.
almost 3 years ago
Option27
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You left out the other fun part of that...
“We’ll have decisions to make at the draft. It depends on who we take, whether we trade our picks or we trade other players. Where we’re going with Ben can’t be decided until after July 1.”
Not sure what I think about this – I mean, I get that talks with Ben can’t begin until July 1 and all, and they may not have a great sense of what he’ll be asking or what other teams will be offering. But I’m not sure that I like any sort of implication that what happens in the draft (and any related trades) will have any influence on what happens with Ben. Seems backwards to me, like you’d want a pretty good sense of what you want to do with Ben to make draft decisions.
I can see the draft/related trades making it more necessary to sign Ben – like if Kirk is traded to move up – but the way I read this it sounds more like JR still isn’t even sure he wants Ben back. Sure doesn’t sound like he’s on the same wave length as Gar here.
Also, I’m not really sure what the whole point is of bringing up the last year stuff. It doesn’t seem like it sets a very happy starting point for this year to rehash pulling the deal last year, and it’s not like his explanation for doing so is going to make Ben feel all that wanted.
But I haven’t listened yet, so maybe it all makes sense in more context?
Man-slave, bring me my PB&J!
I'm with you
Sure doesn’t sound like he’s on the same wave length as Gar here.
Reading this had me thinking Jerry doesn’t seem to care if Ben leaves as much as Gar does.
To me, when you bring up old contract negotiations, it can only do you more harm than good.
Not sure how Ben is gonna feel about Jerry telling the world they took his contract off the table once Ben wanted to take it.
Seems like a slap in the face to me.
Yeah, and not just took the offer off the table,
but to basically say they weren’t sure they wanted Ben long term.
I’ve listened to it now, and I thought it sounded even worse in context – pretty much Swirsky “Ben turned you down twice” and JR comes back essentially with “oh, no, he wanted the offer and we turned him down.”
Even where he compliments Ben he doesn’t come across as sounding like he hopes to keep him, at least to me.
Man-slave, bring me my PB&J!
To me that quote is just further proof of how nasty negotiations must've gotten between the two
It sounds like Reinsdorf is way more concerned with winning negotiations rather than keeping Ben. I’m sure they could still sign him, but it will definitely have to be on Reinsdorf’s terms, not Bens.
"That's a spicy meatball-a!" - Vinny Del Negro
why even bring this up?
I mean I understand that he was being interviewed about it or whatever, but he could’ve easily given a “well, without rehashing everything, it just didn’t work out last year…but Ben is in our plans and we’ll see what happens this time…” type of response.
He completely re-opened the wound of the bad negotiations, amazingly slapping Ben (and his agent) in the face in the process. There was no need to even go there on his part. Gar said all the right things in the press conference and now this idiot has un-done all of the positive vibes that were built up in the past few days.
Not that it was any guarantee that Ben was going to re-sign, but I would not be surprised at all if he and his agent decided to go elsewhere and not even give the Bulls a chance now.
What is it with this clown that he has to have this “I won” complex with everything that he does?
http://awsomepeoplesearch.com/
I'm thinking: Why even have a GM of this team?
Jerry is clearly going to dictate whatever is going down anyway….
It’s like being the Bush of sports… :P
The "I won" complex
is an Obama negotiating tactic.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on May 26, 2009 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
all the while...
…Ben plays good little Chicago sports star and shows up at the Hawks game
http://awsomepeoplesearch.com/
Even some ex-players,
like Mike Whatshisname.
"Whoever was responsible for pulling that offer [to Ben Gordon] off the table...bring him before me and I'll punch him right in the face " - Frederick Pfeiffer
by Granny Waiters on May 25, 2009 5:37 PM CDT up reply actions
Why even have a GM when you're this constantly-meddling as an owner?
"Vinny continues to act like a crazed arsonist pouring gasoline on our season while running around carrying a torch yelling 'I’m in charge. Don’t any of you foolish knaves try to second guess me. I know gasoline is a liquid but I’m pretty sure it isn’t flammable and the odor gives me a natural high.'" - Tyrusmancrush
Congrats, Jerry! You won.
Unfortunately, it was for Idiot of the Year.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
I wish Reinsdorf, the owner, would stay out of the basketball operations.
Since he doesn’t know basketball. Tool.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
I refer to my signature line.
Jerry, meet Fred. Fred, meet Jerry.
"Whoever was responsible for pulling that offer [to Ben Gordon] off the table...bring him before me and I'll punch him right in the face " - Frederick Pfeiffer
You have the answer to your signature.
Things could be worse. We could have kept Boylan.
by stupidgenius on May 26, 2009 6:29 PM CDT up reply actions
My signature doesn't fit at all.
Three things you must know:
-"Ben Gordon is a bundle of muscle and clutch. That's all he's made of. Drink BG7 energy drink, you'll grow a pair of balls on your balls."
-Pau Gasol: The defense of a seven foot ladder paired with the post presence of Manute Bol.
-Joakim Noah is better than you.
This is about business and multi-millions of dollars. Reinsdorf is a businessman
who I hear is an excellent negotiator. We need Gordon at a reasonable price. Let’s see if the Bulls can deliver.
Reinsdorf just plain wins.
(negotiations)
I think I need another trip.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 25, 2009 7:06 PM CDT reply actions
Come on, we were not that mean to the substitute teacher!
"Whoever was responsible for pulling that offer [to Ben Gordon] off the table...bring him before me and I'll punch him right in the face " - Frederick Pfeiffer
by Granny Waiters on May 25, 2009 7:16 PM CDT up reply actions
Seriously, you guys were (and continue to be) awesome
And it was a ton of fun to fill in for a while.
But it does get tough trying to find/think of stuff to post at this time of year, and the BaB-iverse just isn’t the same without Matt around. I’d sub again in a second, but I’m also glad to turn things back over to the permanent Supreme Mugwamp.
Man-slave, bring me my PB&J!
I haven't decided :)
I am in BaB HQ (mom’s basement), but I’m only ‘back’ if I have something to say, right? Maybe something will get me back on the horse, but it’s a pretty dry time now.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 25, 2009 8:04 PM CDT up reply actions
If you don't have anything nice to say...
…you can always call Aldridge a ninny.
by Sabonis4Ever on May 26, 2009 12:52 AM CDT up reply actions
LOL Sabas
Only you mayne.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
No money to re-sign BG
Jerry is too busy trying to buy a money-losing hockey team instead. Rose will be enough to keep the seats relatively full, so why bother trying to win? If Jerry wonders why this franchise has won one playoff series in the last 10 years, he ought to look in the mirror.
Why resort to name calling?
-Dionysus2.0
because I wish to insult you personally
-your friendly BullsBlogger
Honestly now
Gar made a mistake saying that re-signing BG was our top priority, and JR might just be covering him. I love BG, and he’s gonna have a great career, but i’d rather blow my load paying a big man who can score (after the hypothetical Hinrich-Tyrus trade that keeps going around) than be saddled with a big contract with BG. The draft is strong at the gaurd spot, esp. where we’re picking at 16 (Williams, Budinger, Tyreke Evans). Plus, those guys would be willing to come off the bench (with Salmons starting, if he can keep playing balls to the wall like he has since being traded to us), while BG has a problem with that.
BG’s clutch shooting is great, but i bet D-Rose would be just as clutch if he had the opportunity.
by benster on May 25, 2009 11:36 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Rose had the opportunity
numerous times this season to be clutch and little good has come of it yet. Who better than to teach him balls of steel? Deng? Kirk? Rose already mentioned Gordon helps him stay calm during those last minutes of games and that something he admires is Gordon’s clutchness and attitude in those situations with fts and last second shots. Rose has been given the keys to the car already and has had a taste of pretty much everything good or bad with Gordon on the team. Gordon is not standing in his way at all. Rose just needs to become more consistent with those opportunities. If anything Rose will have a much harder time at the end of games in the future going solo because everyone will be all over him without anyone else demanding attention.
What Gordon tried to sign last year was a great deal for the Bulls. It wasn’t busting the bank and it wasn’t max money at all and it wouldn’t be a roadblock in future signings.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
question
can you actually learn balls of steel, or rather…can you be taught by another player…or is it more “you either have it, or you dont…”…i tend to think the latter. Im trying to think of the best clutch performers, and i cant remember a single one who was taught that. The ones who can do it are the ones who wanted to do it since theyve been in the league. Rose wants to do it, a guy like kirk does not. Gordon has been doing it since maybe college. I’d think that rose feels calmer when gordon is there because he knows that if he feels he cant take it or if he is double teamed then he can pass it to gordon who can definetly get something done. I submit to you however, that maybe gordon then becomes rose’s clutch crutch. Take gordon away and rose has no one else to help in last second moments, then its the entire team resting thier hopes on rose….i think its definetly bad for a rookie to go through that cuz it might break them, but rose is no longer a rookie. Maybe its time to take away the crutch and let him realize what he can truly do.
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
by piccolomair on May 26, 2009 4:05 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don't think you can teach it
but I think we all NEED Rose to have it in him. I do think that the calm, confidence that Gordon has in clutch time is contagious. On the other hand, I think we have some serious problems if Rose is the kind of guy who gets all passive at the end because he thinks he could always pass it off to Gordon. I’ve not seen that out of him. Rose has passiveness problems in the first three quarters of a game. He seems to typically try to step it up in the 4th quarters (sometimes too late, but usually always a noticeable increase in aggression).
A very memorable moment for Rose’s in my mind was when we were at an end of the game situation and he put his head down, turned to the basket to do his thing, and got stuffed by three guys. THAT is what happens when your end of the game offense is projecting one channel. The defense knows what has been decided and swarm on him. Stripping from Rose all of his options is like doing that to him. It is completely unnecessary and wrong to say that Rose can only shine brightly if you take talent away from him. It is up to Rose to figure out how to use guys like Gordon. I think Rose is smart enough to figure it out without taking all his toys away.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
by cranscape on May 26, 2009 8:34 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don't think anything is perfectly innate.
We can disagree to what degree one can learn to be calm in tough situations, but there must be an element of learning something. After all, what good is “visualization”, which every great athlete has used, if not learning to be calm in clutch situations?
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
Interesting question...
I’m of the mindset that either you have it or you don’t. I don’t think being “clutch” is a learned habit. I think the great closers came into this league doing it. Or showed the aptitude to do it. Do they miss some last second shots? Sure. Jordan missed many, so did Kobe. But if it’s in them, it’s in them. BG was winning games his first year in the league. Love him or hate him… He had “it”. My problem with the way Rose was handled was that they bestowed that role to him without him proving it at any point. He had many times to prove he could do it but still had his issues. I do think Rose is capable. I think as he gets older and stronger, he’ll be able to impose his will and get his shot off. But the great closers seemed to have it from the start. What will help Rose the most is if and when he develops a 3pt shot. Until then, I don’t think he’s a closer.
Right, Gordon's never been "willing" to come off the bench, despite repeatedly having done so with nary a peep.
And scoring big men at $8 million are just waiting for the Bulls to come a callin’.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
Rose had the opportunity.
We all had the opportunity to watch Rose miss nearly impossible layups.
Three things you must know:
-"Ben Gordon is a bundle of muscle and clutch. That's all he's made of. Drink BG7 energy drink, you'll grow a pair of balls on your balls."
-Pau Gasol: The defense of a seven foot ladder paired with the post presence of Manute Bol.
-Joakim Noah is better than you.
Maybe's he's just depressed he can't pay Jake Peavy a ridiculous amount of money
To get destroyed in the AL?
That Steve Nash is exactly the same as Kirk Hinrich, but worse.
by NBA Observer on Apr 8, 2009 12:23 PM CDT
Everytime he opens his mouth I'm reminded of the way
he shat the bed with D’Antoni. Can’t he leave this stuff behind closed doors?
Is he proud that the Bulls could be the first franchise in modern history to give away a first round pick that panned out for absolutely nothing?
Seriously
Reinsdorf should keep quiet, give ben gordon a contract, and then if he really doesnt like gordon have him traded away for bosh….the key is truly to sign gordon cuz you have more options afterwards, by not signing him you give ben gordon a reason to sign with a rival and come in focused everytime he plays your team….im not sure i want gordon dropping 40 pts on the bulls any time soon…(and with hinrich gone who would guard him huh?)
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
I wouldn't worry about Gordon coming "focused".
If the Bulls want to be a great team, they have to beat everyone anyway.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
Looks Like They Got Salmons
so they could let Ben go. Can’t reward him for refusing their deal. That would lead to more problems down the road when negotiating with players. Owner has to “win” negotiations. With Rose, no problems filling the place up for the foreseeable future.
always a great contribution.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 17, 2009 8:33 AM PST
Why?
Deng was rewarded for turning down offers. That’s the hypocrisy here that I don’t get. BG negotiates, he gets turned down and ridiculed, Deng negotiates and he gets overpayed and over valued. Which one would you rather have now? The Bulls screwed up negotiations with both players and they know it. They let ego and feelings get in the way and now they are about to let their most productive player walk for nothing because they were to stupid to sign him.
As far as your comment: “With Rose, no problems filling the place up for the foreseeable future”, I think as fans we’ll be in for a rude awakening next year with Rose if he doesn’t have a backcourt partner that can demand a double team. Also, how do you think Lebron James feel right now, seeing that his overrated all-star guard Mo Williams hasn’t showed up against the Magic? How about how Kobe feels playing with Derek Fisher? How much would those guys give for a backcourt player like BG right now? Be careful about undervaluing Ben right now because the Bulls aren’t in as good of a position that everyone thinks they are.
Oh, the classic "teach them a lesson" theory?
Please. It is more of a “shoot yourself in the foot to prove your point” deal. THEY could have had him for the price they wanted for him. At that point it was shooting themselves in the foot when they didn’t take their own deal. How about what Deng’s deal taught everyone who was to come after?
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
You know what else is scary Cranscape?
You look in these playoffs right now and it make BG look that more valuable. Like I said before in the my above post, Mo Williams inability to score and become a viable option is the reason that the Cavs very well may get beat. Then I watched the post game show on TNT and all Barkley and Kenny Smith can talk about is how someone, anyone for the Cavs needs to score at least 20 pts to take the pressure of of Lebron. People on these blogs have taken BG’s 20pts a game for granted but there isn’t a person here that would deny that if the Cavs had BG, they would be in better shape right now. BG has got to be smiling his butt off right now knowing that one of these contenders might say hell with it and give him his money to make a championship run.
That’s why my feeling is while you have Rose, keep a guy that you’re going to eventually need anyway when making a run for a ring. Keep a guy that’s on his way to having a career compareable to Ray Allen or Reggie Miller and build around that.
by Dils on May 26, 2009 9:08 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think we need to
have a little more confidence in Rose than many seem to have for some reason. If Rose is the guy we hope he is he should be able to learn how to use players like Gordon as an asset. And Gordon is the kind of asset that can go off for 14 points in a quarter and change the game if that is what you need out of him. Gordon has improved his FT rate, decreased his TOs, and has otherwise found ways of being a guy who could keep it going no matter what the score board says or how anyone else is doing. There should be value in that. 20 pts a game is in Gordon’s average. I’d rather have a player strive for his average when we need him to than a different guy who scores 11 pts a game try to force a career night when we need him to. One is easier than the other and “making up points” among other players isn’t the easiest thing to do or plan for all season.
It has been interesting watching Lebron and Kobe have great individual games but still lose because no one else is stepping up for one reason or another. For the Lakers they are just not making plays for their number two guy for some reason even though he is shooting over 60% I believe. In Cleavland they are just not stepping up at all even with opportunities, Mo in particular. I am not sure which is worse. You’d like to think the Lakers at least have a fixable problem, but it is a problem that is hard to believe is happening in the first place.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
Pau Gasol
Is stepping up BIG TIME in the conference finals. I really don’t get why his what 20 pts and 15 boards and a few blocks are so overlooked. That dude is fantasitc, a great passer out of the post, smart, incredibly smart in the post with his post moves, and sure he’s not scoring 40 like Kobe, but his impact for them has been almost as great as the best finisher in the game….
It’s Odom, Bynum, Fisher who’ve been playing like dog shit…especially Odom and Bynum since you’d expect them to play better. I know Bynum was hurt, but his D has been as horrid as Phil Jackson’s rep has been….and Odom has disappeared completely….and been a total non factor. Fisher’s just old….but if Bynum and Odom played like they can (Especially Odom since Bynum ain’t 100%) they’d mop the floor with the Nuggets.
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
I didn't say Gasol isn't stepping up.
They just are not feeding him the ball as much as they should be. That isn’t Gasol’s fault. If I were him I’d be frustrated at how the offense is run. Kobe is taking a zillion shots (many that are just not good shots at all) and Gasol is hardly taking any in comparison despite the results he gets when he does have the opportunity. Gasol is getting his points very efficiently and should be given more chances. The Lakers are not losing by very many points. Five more shots to Gasol could change the game.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
Exactly
I don’t get it either….Gasol’s been fantastic with the ball in his hands….his post moves are too much for the solid Denver defenders, and his passing is fantastic (helped likely too by his size)….
I would try to force it to him at least 5 more times a game like you said…
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
Right on Dils
Exactly. Ben Gordon isn’t a superstar, but he’s a reliable 20 pts a game scorer…not nearly as streaky either.
Imagine how good BG would be next to Lebron….the fact that Mo despite getting many more open looks then Ben’s ever had (since LBJ is double and triple teamed and one helluva passer) can’t get it going speaks volumes.
Ben Gordon’s an all star caliber player….Mo Williams—all star by circumstance.
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
fantastic point
I doubt if the Cavs had Gordon their followers would be fretting over him taking shots and being selfish or whatever. The ’don’t want too many good players’ philosophy is a Bulls-fan-only paranoia, it seems.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 26, 2009 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
If by "his money"
BG has got to be smiling his butt off right now knowing that one of these contenders might say hell with it and give him his money to make a championship run.
You mean the Mid Level Exception…since none of those teams will have cap space.
And it looks like Chauncey is doing just fine in Denver with Dahntay Jones starting alongside him…
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on May 26, 2009 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions
um...
the Nuggets have a lot of firepower on offense. Martin, JR, Melo, Nene, Chauncey. they have lots of guys that can score. Cleveland (West? Big Z? Mo is struggling), Lakers (Odom? Fisher? Ariza?), and Orlando (Turk only in the 4th. Lewis, not til this round. Lee?), not so much.i bet you any of those 3 teams would love BG right now. people like to say a guy like Kirk or Noce fit well on contenders because of the role they fill. glue type guys. very valuable to a contender. well, i’d say BG isn’t a glue guy, but definitely a player contending teams would like to have, so if the Bulls want to be contenders, why not keep the guy? BG is not Starbury (meaning a 20pt scorer that contenders wouldn’t touch with a 10ft pole). BG has always been a winner and associated with winning. i like to keep that kind of guy on my team.
we went out for pizza after the game. -dave wannstedt
by BULLieving in Miami on May 26, 2009 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Right, compare the Denver Nuggets and the Chicago Bulls on offense
Makes total sense. It’s not like they have quadruple the talent of our team or anything.
That Steve Nash is exactly the same as Kirk Hinrich, but worse.
by NBA Observer on Apr 8, 2009 12:23 PM CDT
by Ozzie Montana on May 26, 2009 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't think they have quadruple the talent of our team
But they are more veteran savvy, I think oru talent is there, just hasn’t fully blossomed….
But I agree with your sentiment.
I mean Rose is more physically gifted than Billups is, was or will ever be. Gordon’s a better player than Jones and JR Smith combined. Tyrus THomas if he figures it out will defininitely be in his own league….
Salmons/Miller/Thomas are definitely in talent better than as Martin-Nene-Birdman…thoguh a lot’s on Tyrus.
Noah’s a great role player, leader in the making….
But Melo’s awesomeness trumps Deng.
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
You're kind of making my point for me.
Like Matt said in his remarks,there is a phlosophy amogst Bulls fans we don’t want too many good players. Specifically with Rose. Some fans act like BG gets in the way or something. Orlando and Denver are giving the Clevland and LA fits because of the fact that they are deep and have talent throughout their lineup. Honestly, look at Cleveland. Lebron goes for 41 and it doesn’t mean nothing because he supporting cast isn’t showing up. I bet Kobe would rather have BG playing in the triangle rather than Derek Fisher. Throw in Miami with Wade, and it’s class 101 on how not to build around a superstar. Now look at Denver with Carmelo. He’s got Billups and all kinds of players that can contribute. Jordan had Pippen and Grant then Kukoc and Rodman. The Bulls with Rose are actually in better shape now with BG than without.
by Dils on May 26, 2009 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah
But when was Deng nearly as good as Melo, especially offensively?
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
Just ignore the fact.
That none of those teams could actually afford to offer BG more than the MLE. On the one hand I agree they would like to have BG, they are not in a financial position to offer him the contract that he turned down last year.
You guys are right, Melo is better than Deng. The point I am making is that the starting two guard does not have to score 20 a night for a team to be a contender.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
So our obvious choice
is to let our 20pts a game guy go for nothing and just hope another guy shows up sometime in the next 3-5 years who can be that guy. He will have to be a PF or C because Deng is locked in at SF and I guess we don’t want a SG who can do that since we have one and he is heading out the door. If Bosh doesn’t work out for us we are in trouble.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
Yeah BG has 20 pts a night
but the reason we don’t want to offer him 9-10 mil a year is he usually gives up 20 pts a night at the other end. if we can get a two-gaurd who can play man-d (like salmons) and put up 20 a night (like BG) we’d be better off.
I could've swore
Salmons got lit up by Paul Pierce in a few games in the playoffs himself so I’m not understanding that. Heck I’m watching Lebron get lit up by Raefer Alston right now. It happens.
You'd have to give me some examples.
Because I can’t think of a lot of guys who do that to BG who also don’t routinely do that to ANYONE guarding them. (cough) Wade (/cough) Our back court this season was amazing. During our terrible stretches it was always the front court that was bleeding out, not Gordon. Front court players were having career nights against our bigs. It is pretty well documents. You can say whatever you want, but show me the numbers if you want to change any minds around here.
Salmons was guarding SFs most of his time with us. He has yet to prove himself against quicker SGs. Maybe he can be effective there. But this is Salmons. He will be here and gone. I am not going to advocate getting rid of Gordon because we have Salmons. It’s Salmons. Good guy, but not in our long term plans. With Deng the way he is he might be swinging for SF anyway.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
Quite a few backcourt guys had big games against the Bulls
November 26th – San Antonio – George Hill first career double-double
December 2nd – Philladelphia – Andre Miller scored season-high 28 points
December 12th – Memphis — Rudy Gay 29 points, Hakim Warrick 21, both season highs
December 13th – New Jersey – Vince Carter 39 points, Season-High
December 16th – Charlotte – DJ Augustine 29 points, Career-High
December 23rd – Detroit — Stuckey scored a career-high 40 points
December 27th – Atlanta — Joe Johnson 41 points, Josh Smith 24, both season-highs
January 9th – Washington – Nick Young Career-High 29
January 12th – Portland – Travis Outlaw 33 points
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on May 26, 2009 11:11 PM CDT up reply actions
Um, Travis Outlaw is a SF/PF, so is Hakim Warrick and Rudy Gay
George Hill, Andre Miller, DJ Augustin, Nick Young, and Rodney Stuckey, pretty sure none of those guys were being guarded exclusively by Ben Gordon. Are we forgetting Rose was abysmal on defense this season?
That leaves 2 actual SGs who were guarded primarily by Ben Gordon, and probably some spot duty by Larry Hughes. Neither of them are elite players, but both certainly capable of going off, and looking up the box scores Gordon scored 29 and 33 points in those games.
That Steve Nash is exactly the same as Kirk Hinrich, but worse.
by NBA Observer on Apr 8, 2009 12:23 PM CDT
by Ozzie Montana on May 26, 2009 11:31 PM CDT up reply actions
BG averaged around 20 pts
in all of those games he listed. It is also to be noted that one or two of our key starters other than BG tended to have sucktacular games by the stats and were key contributors to our losses. We also played a lot of Thabo and Gray and Hughes in those stretches along with an injured Deng who was a step slow for most of it despite having a couple good games among those listed.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
Ahem
November 26th – Ben with 23 pts 9-16 and Hughes with an amazing 8pts of suck. | GHill with 19 and Finley with 6. I am supposed to be mad at that considering what the Bulls stats looked like as a whole? Noah with 2 pts? Woo-hoo! Team fail. Sorry if I don’t order BG’s head on a platter for that one.
December 2 – Noah and Gooden combine for 11 pts and Deng for an amazing 10. Yet Gordon’s 18pts and “defense” sunk the ship?
December 12th – BG 28 minutes, 26 pts from 8-15 shooting. Gay isn’t a guard. Their guards didn’t do too much in that game. Larry played more than BG anyway. And look, a rare good game out of Deng. Shazam!
December 13th – BG got 29 pts from 12-21 shooting and we won the flipping game. And he did all that with one ft attempt compared to Vince Carters 14 star treatment walks to the line. And we won the game.
December 16th – BG 25 pts 7-18 shooting. Augustine goes to the line goes to the line 13 times? Something fishy is going on there.
December 23 – BG 18 pts 8-15, 7 assists and 7 rebounds. Deng with an amazing 6 pts for over 30 minutes played. Stucky shoots 15-24 and goes to the line 11 times. They put Hughes and Thabo on him and nothing stopped him. I hope Stucky is watching tapes of that during his off season.
December 27th – Ben with 33pts 10-22 | Johnson with 41 pts but from 16-31 shooting. Johnson also lights EVERYONE up. Deng out with sprained ankle so we were starting THABO. We also played GRAY over 30 minutes (puke). Shouldn’t we get a handicap for that?
January 9th – BG 22 – WE WON THE GAME. Nick Young can also watch tapes of that over the summer.
January 12th – Outlaw is a Forward. If they had BG on him they had rocks for brains. BG had a crummy shooting night that game though. I can see why you tried to sneak it in.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
So there are plenty of examples...
Of the backcourt giving up big games…it was not always the frontcourt as you had suggested…cool…
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on May 27, 2009 12:20 AM CDT up reply actions
Actually
we seemed to get almost not\ offensive production from our front court in those games and we had a lot of handicaps from our trio of suck (Hughes/Thabo/Gray). BG comes out looking pretty good based on his production. I am fine with the back court. We could have won most of those games if other starters showed in even the slightest capacity.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
9 out of 82 is NOT plenty.
Dude, c’mon. I know you dislike Gordon, but usually, you’re at least honest.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
Crans asked for examples.
I stopped making my list after January games, as I felt that gave me plenty of examples, of not just guys scoring 20, but having really big games against the Bulls defensive backcourt….this is not to be considered an exhaustive list…
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
In your examples
Gordon showed up offensively for at least 20 pts himself if not more. To me that is a big difference in contrasting our front court who would give their counterparts career nights while only putting 2-7 points up themselves. The gap in points is a big deal in the outrage over this “career night” issue we had this season.
I found your list pretty exhaustive. Next time only use games where actual SGs had career nights and don’t ignore how the rest of our starters contributed or in many cases didn’t contribute to a positive outcome to the game.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
Really? I find he's usually blatantly and knowingly full of shit/
by Sports2 on May 27, 2009 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
indeed.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 27, 2009 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions
I would expect nothing less from you.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
Really?
I hope it makes you feel better about yourself insulting someone personally in an internet thread…you are cool.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
reading it made ME feel better
so that should make him feel cool.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 28, 2009 9:40 AM CDT up reply actions
That might be the worst "list-justification" I've ever seen.
Try again.
Let’s at least be honest in our debates over the players because I know you’re smarter than that.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
Most often shows you that
Rose has issues defensively….. Gay and Carter did their damage mostly to Deng and Thabo if I recall.
Joe Johnson and Nick Young lit up BG, but BG lit up far more of his share of opponents…. Nick Young also lit up BG after we had a 20 some point lead and it seemed we took it easy and he almost brought it back…..not that that’s acceptable, but that happens.
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
Not exactly Ben's fault.
George Hill – PG
Andre Miller – PG
Rudy Gay – SF
Hakim Warrick – PF
Vince Carter- He’s a SG, but BG also went off for a lot in this game
DJ Augustine – PG
Stuckey – PG
Joe Johnson – (see Carter, Vince)
Nick Young – Pretty sure he’s a PG
Travis Outlaw – SF
So the 2 SGs that had great nights against were all-stars or all-star caliber players. Not too shabby in my opinion.
Things could be worse. We could have kept Boylan.
by stupidgenius on May 27, 2009 3:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Just ask Milwaukee about giving contracts to players who score big
and they will point you out to Big Dog
"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."
- fundamentallysound
And Michael Redd.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on May 26, 2009 11:06 PM CDT up reply actions
Well, we're not giving Gordon a max contract, are we now
Three things you must know:
-"Ben Gordon is a bundle of muscle and clutch. That's all he's made of. Drink BG7 energy drink, you'll grow a pair of balls on your balls."
-Pau Gasol: The defense of a seven foot ladder paired with the post presence of Manute Bol.
-Joakim Noah is better than you.
If Gordon has it his way we are...
Considering the contracts he has rejected each of the last two summers.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on May 27, 2009 12:17 AM CDT up reply actions
Did you not listen to the words coming from Jerry's lips?
I am not going to go into this again, but Jerry put the nail in the coffin to your argument earlier this week. Pick a new thing. Go back to BG being short or something. I am sure someone will say they stood next to him and he looked 5’ 7".
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
You can't be that daft?
Ben Gordon was given a deadline by the team last summer, prior to the deadline, he turned down the offer. After the deadline had passed, he tried to change his mind, but the offer had already been rejected and was no longer on the table.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
Apparently so.
The Bulls were in complete control of that situation and could have had him for the contract they had penned themselves. A very decent contract. They slit their own throat to spite themselves. That is, to use an antiquated word, daft.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
We're not talking
a max $15-16M contract similar to Redd’s….we’re talking $10-11M. That difference will net you 1 other solid veteran or 2 other good solid role playing former stars in their 30’s (PJ Brown Boston types) who will fill in the cracks…
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
The point is
not about the contracts but about players who can score, teams try to hold on to them, and always get stuck into a situation because they did. They get stuck as medicore teams.
Big Dog, Redd, Glen Rice, Isiah Rider, Derrick Coleman, Walker
They can be a nice addition to the team like Walker to Miami but when you try to hold on to them because you think they will be the difference into being a contender then your stuck. And I think the Bulls see that.
If we can get Gordon for about 8 mil a year I think we would be fine.
"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."
- fundamentallysound
The teams that are contenders don't have JR as their owner.
They actually get that the revenue created by winning a championship would trump going over the luxury tax to sign BG.
Things could be worse. We could have kept Boylan.
by stupidgenius on May 26, 2009 6:46 PM CDT up reply actions
Don't worry. Reinsdorf understands going into LT
to get to the ECF or Finals. But BG doesn’t get us there.
While it's fun to say that
We have won 6 titles under JR….and that’s better than any other current owner I believe…
And it’s not like Reinsdorf was all that cheap when MJ was winning, giving MJ his $30M/year in 1996 no less….
I am not hte biggest Reinsdorf fan at all, but come on now.
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
So you're saying Ben's greatest asset is his confidence
I see the value of that, but is that worth $10 million a year? Because otherwise his impact is marginal.
He shot a .573 TS% this year, which is good. But let’s say Salmons and Hinrich take Gordon’s attempts next year and shoot a .540 TS%. That only costs us 1.2ppg… 1.2ppg they’ll make up for with better passing and defense. And while he commands the occasional double team that Hinrich does not, Gordon rarely exploits it with a good pass.
It'll be a lot tougher
For Salmons and Kirk to shoot a .54% TS% when they’re getting less open looks because the defense is geared to BG.
Plus what was the variance in 5 of the 7 Celtics series? less than 1.2 PPG….
Losing BG for nothing is a SILLY argument that no BG hater will ever win.
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
i think you underestimate how rare it is to score 20 pts per game
also, please – defenses adjust when you take away a top scorer. Why you refuse to acknowledge this fact, I don’t know. But Hinrich and Salmons will not fare as well as BG if they are the focal point of the offense.
And here is another point – we had all 3. That was when we were at our best. When we subtract one, and replace him with a lesser player, we won’t be as good.
by Basketball Smurf on May 26, 2009 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Why would a defense adjust with Ben Gordon gone?
It’s rare that opponents doubleteam Gordon, mostly because Gordon’s a poor slasher. Despite his crazy dribbling, for all intents and purposes he’s a jumpshooter who doesn’t break down defenses to the Bulls’ advantage.
Take away Kobe, or Wade, or Roy and defenses adjust, because they open scoring and passing windows with their slashing. But taking away Gordon is like taking away Ray Allen… nothing changes, you can just afford to be a bit more lazy about guarding the 3.
What?
What team have you been watching. Ben GOrdon gets double teamed a lot, especially to close quarters and games….
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
thank you
it is also obvious that Gordon spreads the floor in a way no other Bull can because he is a dead eye shooter.
One of the major gripes about Gordon has been his inability to handle double teams. To now act like he never gets double teamed is ridiculous.
And finally, teams adjust to guys capable of scoring 30 pts on any given nights. They find ways to try and stop those guys. Gordon opens up the floor for other players on the team. His detractors refuse to see that. He also wins a lot of games for the Bulls in the 4th.
I don’t think it will be a catastrophe if he leaves. But the solution to him leaving is by no means as simple as Hinrich and Salmons now getting Gordon’s shots.
by Basketball Smurf on May 26, 2009 4:37 PM CDT up reply actions
Well the solution is giving his minutes (and most of his shots) to Deng
Don’t forget how well Deng was playing in January before slowing to a halt in February. His numbers from January:
36.5mpg, 17.5ppg, 8.5rpg, 2.3apg on 50.3 FG%, 1.7spg, 0.4bpg.
Scotter’s post reviewing our team’s January performance has more indepth numbers. With Rose and Salmons on board as two legit scoring options, I think our team is at least as good with Deng in for Gordon. And I’d rather use our $10 mil to shape us into a more typical championship team (strong defense, more passing, inside scoring option) than give it to the one-dimensional Gordon.
Yeah
Let’s give the ball to the guy who had a nice 6 game stretch…..6 games over 82 is not really enough to judge a season by….and I also seem to recall him doing that with Ben Gordon on the floor, a consistent Ben Gordon who was giving us 20 pts at will all year long.
It was a great 6 game stretch (then he crapped out the last 2 games before going down to injury), but where were the other games? And I haven’t seen enough of an aggressive I’m the star Deng to say he can continually do that again….
Ben Gordon has been killer for us in games….and to let him walk for nothing is beyond stupid to argue.
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
I'd say this
After watching 2 HOF players in Lebron and Kobe struggle to get to the finals I’d say yes he’s worth it. Both of those guys are better than Rose and are lacking a main ingredient on their teams: A guy who can consistently take away the pressure on them offensively. That’s why they both are struggling. Mo Williams was is making over 50 mil over 6 years and was brought in to do just that. He’s in no way a better player than BG, he’s playing with Lebron and still isn’t getting the job done. Right now he’s a major reason Cleveland is losing. So yes BG is worth it.
by Dils on May 26, 2009 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
The Bulls aren't the Cavs or Lakers
Teams with a superstar have a huge advantage when building a team because get a big boost in plusminus while only paying that person $15 mil a year. Fill out your payroll with reliable role players and you’re a contender.
The Bulls don’t have that plusminus advantage, so we have to be smarter with our money. Is an okay-but-supremely-confident player worth $10 mil to the Cavs? Of course. But to the Bulls? We can spend our money in smarter ways.
Umm... I thought we were all counting on the plan that Rose becomes that huge plus-minus player?
And that Noah and Deng will be really good (but not great) in the next five years? It’d suck for all of that to happen, and then be that one player short.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
Exactly...
I’m trying to look big picture here. There’s like a myth that BG can’t be part of a championship team. Like because of his flaws he don’t ‘“fit”. But ironically here in the conference finals, the losing teams are losing this exact player. And the losing teams both have All-Star wing type players. The consensus usually around here is that because Rose is a guard, BG is taking something away from Rose’s game or that BG is replaceable. I feel like a BG type player is vital to a team whose star is a PG success. Why not try to keep the one of the best 3-pt shooters and clutch playersin the game on your team? By the way, 3pt shooting and being clutch are not Rose’s best traits in this league yet.
You're assuming we'll magically become a contender
And if we do, we’ll have Gordon in our back pocket. That’s a huge if, especially with two starting guards that can’t defend, and a front line that can’t score.
It’s not “Lose Gordon for nothing”, it’s “Lose Gordon, and we have $10 million to use on other players that can make us a contender.” As much as I like the Rose-Deng-Tyrus-Noah nucleus, they aren’t contending on their own, and adding Gordon means adding a +0, clutch player for $10 million. To me that’s a big risk.
"$10 million to use on other players"
not really.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 26, 2009 4:16 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Sure it is
We stand at $63 million for next season, and the luxury tax this year was $71 million. If we re-sign Gordon, there go our low-level and mid-level exception opportunities.
Two years from now, our payroll stands at $26 million not including Tyrus’ salary. Include his and Gordon’s salaries along with a couple rookie contracts, and we’d have maybe $10 million left to spend on free agents. Take out Gordon’s contract and more options open up.
the exceptions don't add to $10m
But I suppose if this is all a grand scheme to slash the roster to get under the cap in ’10, then letting Gordon walk is one step in a magnificent forward-thinking grand plan, the kind that the Bulls have proven to be really really good at.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 26, 2009 5:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Step 1: Cut Payroll, trade good players for more payroll
Step 2: Profit!
Step 3: Wait, there was supposed to be another step?
Three things you must know:
-"Ben Gordon is a bundle of muscle and clutch. That's all he's made of. Drink BG7 energy drink, you'll grow a pair of balls on your balls."
-Pau Gasol: The defense of a seven foot ladder paired with the post presence of Manute Bol.
-Joakim Noah is better than you.
by Prevenge on May 26, 2009 11:46 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
Dude, that's awesome.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
heh, thanks.
I certainly left at a good time, considering the non-news.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 27, 2009 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions
Were you?
For as good as Tony Parker is, he’s only projecting to about a +5 or +6 player. I’d guess that’s the best we can expect Rose to be in the next three to four years given his just-average passing and mediocre defense. The Wades/Pauls/LeBrons can be around +12. We’re the Pistons or Rockets, not the Cavs or Lakers.
And that Noah and Deng will be really good (but not great) in the next five years? It’d suck for all of that to happen, and then be that one player short.
We’d have Gordon’s $10 million to work with. And we can use that for players who do more than just shoot well.
stockpile the derrek fishers and luke waltons of the world
great at winning you games throughout the season, not a lot of help in the post-season. This isn’t baseball where it should be all about the regular season because a 7-game series is as much about luck as it is who is better.
When the bench shortens in the playoffs, and things tighten up to where “star” players are getting more favorable treatment, those barely-postive players during the season turn to crap in the playoffs. If you really want to build depth, why not have the a back-court of 96 minutes of APM between +4.00 and +6.00?
If Gordon’s year last season was an aberration, and we can expect something between 2.5 and 3.0 again and Rose improves, you’re looking at a team with
Rose 2.0-2.5
Gordon 2.5-3.0
Hinrich 4.0-5.0
Deng 1.5-2.5
Miller 2.5-3.0
Noah 3.0-4.0
And depending on the how Salmons and Tyrus Thomas do, isn’t that the kind of team you’re trying to build? Not many teams have more than 6 or 7 guys in the positive APM territory.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
I replied to you on the other thread about single season APM numbers
In a couple years, I think we can expect something more like this:
Rose: +3 to +4
Gordon: +0 to +1
Hinrich: -1 to 0
Deng: +2 to +3
Miller: +.5 to +1.5
Noah: +4 to +5
Salmons: -1 to 0
Tyrus: +2.5 to +3.5
Either way, it’s a lot of guys with neutral to positive APMs, meaning that team should win 50+ games for a long time, but I think we should give the $10 million to someone better than +0 to +1.
Thanks for carrying the banner pretty much all by yourself.
I couldn’t have made the arguements you did. Thanks. (Instead, we would be ahead by a point with the ball)
You still haven't responded to what numbers you were citing in that thread.
Neither has YaoPau. Obviously, I’m an idiot for not knowing what you’re talking about, but I’d really appreciate you telling me.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
This list is already outdated, but...
You might, possibly, be able to get these guys for around $10 million/year or less. Of course, the Bulls don’t have any money to spend on free agency this year, so that takes all of those guys off the list. Never mind that, though. A trade, obviously, involves trading someone away.
Which of these guys are you wanting to give $10 million/yr for the next 3-5 years? Keep in mind, Ben Gordon (26-28) is entering his prime when players almost always play the best basketball of their careers.
Age over next 3 years in parentheses
> 5.0 or so
Jamario Moon (29-31)
Ron Artest (30-32)
Rasheed Wallace (35-37)
Rashad McCants (if you think his was legit…)
3.0 – 5.0
Mike Dunleavy (29-31)
Shawn Marion (31-33)
Hedo Turkoglu (30-32)
Mike Miller (29-31)
Marcus Camby (34-36)
Nick Collison (29-31)
Corey Maggette (30-32)
1.0 – 3.0
Gerald Wallace (27-29)
Ryan Gomes (27-29)
Keith Bogans (29-31)
Raymond Felton (25-27)
Jamal Crawford (29-31)
Brendan Haywood (30-32)
So that’s the list from your 5-year APM. I think that’s a bad list, but you like it, so I used it. Who there gets some of the Ben Gordon money? Who else would you want to give it to that I didn’t include?
I’m not even necessarily asking who you’d definitely go after. Just maybe a few examples of who you think the Bulls could realistically spend that money on. Saying the Bulls should spend their money on someone like Chris Anderson or J.R. Smith or whomever, but only as long as those guys (or someone “like” them) are actually available.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
*for 3-5 years
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 27, 2009 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions
I listed some names in the How This Bulls Part II post
I think McCants’ number was a fluke, but he’s worth taking a flyer on. Luther Head can be signed for our LLE or we can get Shelden Williams for our late-1st.
Those names you listed, we can’t go after most of them because of our cap situation. Would Rasheed take the MLE to backup Tyrus and also Noah after Miller’s contract is up? If so I’d do it.
The big thing to me is keeping our options open in 2010, because that’s the easiest way to get to contender-level. I’d sign maybe one role player this offseason, let Rose/Hinrich/Salmons/Deng/Tyrus/Noah/Miller get to 50 wins, and then head into the 2010 as a 50-win team with tons of cash in a big market. Gordon’s money would go to whoever we sign then.
A 10 million dollar flyer?
Things could be worse. We could have kept Boylan.
by stupidgenius on May 27, 2009 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions
No, no, no
We’d get him for our late 1st, then sign him longterm. What’s the market for 9ppg 24 year olds who played 19mpg? If we can sign him somewhere between what Carroll (6 yrs, 27 mil) or Kapono (4 years, 24 mil) went for, I think we come out ahead.
Well throwing Derek Fisher
In that lump ain’t quite fair….he was a nice to have gjuy because of his leadership and ability to hit and not be afraid of the clutch shots…but age has crept up. I agree with the sentiment though, and nobody besides Golden State would ahve dramatically overpaid for Fisher….
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
One more thing when it comes to Bulls management and there wise decisions...
He may be immature and streaky. But wouldn’t it be a nice option to have a 6’6 guard who’s 23 years old and gaining playoff experience? Yeah good thing the Bulls took the side of a now fired Scott Skiles and gave away JR Smith for nothing. Maybe that would’ve made letting go of BG a little less painful. So why should we expect wise decisions from an organization that did that, chased Chandler away, gave an injury prone small foward a ridiculous contract, sisn an inexperienced head coach and is now in a position to give away their leading scorer for nothing? Why should we assume that they will make the best trades and best decisions for Rose going forward?
I look at how TT was used in the playoffs and the way he’s critiqued. Then I look at how Kenyon Martin and Chris Anderson are given playing time in Denver and think to myself, how in the world are we judging TT when those guys are playing and given room to flourish despite their flaws? This could’ve very well been the year the Bulls shocked the world and made it to the Eastern Conference finals but we’ll never know because of how this organiztion operates.
Kenyon Martin is an 8 year veteran
Chris Anderson is perfectly fine playing 20 minutes a game off the bench doing Birdman things.
I continue to loath JR Smith because for every amazing play he makes, he acts like a complete tool afterwards. There were 4-5 instances last night the refs could have called a technical on him, he taunted the Lakers bench towards the end of the game, etc.
Also, let’s be serious. Who is going to fire a head coach who turned the franchise around because some middling lottery pick didn’t get along with him?
That Steve Nash is exactly the same as Kirk Hinrich, but worse.
by NBA Observer on Apr 8, 2009 12:23 PM CDT
by Ozzie Montana on May 26, 2009 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions
I didnt say that's why Skiles got fired
But the more I think about it is. Skiles was stubborn and didn’t get along with certain players. Which in turn forces an organization to make personnel decisions based off their coach, not necessarily what’s best for the team. Arguing with your All-star over a freaking headband, dissing Tyson Chandler in public basically saying he wasn’t that good of a pro,and burying 2 first round picks(TT and Sefolosha) on the bench are the reasons he got let go. Player relationships is the reason Skiles got let go and is why he will always be an A – B head coach. By the way, that middling lottery pick is part of a team that’s in the Western conference Finals. He’s 23 and like I said wouldn’t be a terrible thing to have on this team. We gave the guy away for NOTHING. Why?
Exactly Dils
Yeah Skiles system of getting everyone to play hard might get your team into the playoffs, but his short minded CEO mind of getting numbers now rather than working on development for FAR BETTER Results and possibly titles later is the reason why we took a huge step back, his system caught up with him and his guys quit…..
The same thing was happening in Phx, but they pulled the plug before it completely blew up….
And I bet the same will happen in Milwaukee…..just as soon as he “turns them around”. Hell I think Michael Redd was already having issues with Skiles before the injuries resurfaced…
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
JR Smith avg. 7 ppg in this series before last night.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
I'm not saying he's great
I think he’s immature and inconsistent. But there is something to be said for a guy we let walk for no reason at all to be playing an important part on another team as they try to get a ring. My point is letting young guys go for nothing.
JR Smith was never worth keeping
Never ever. It’s not a fairy tale. JR Smith was never going to find playing time in a role on a Scott Skiles coached contender.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on May 26, 2009 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah and where is Skiles at right now?
Watching JR Smith in the playoffs from home.
Imagine if we had JR Smith
Just how much you guys would hate him. I mean for chrissakes you rag on Gordon all the time, and Smith is far less disciplined on O than BG and isn’t quite as gifted as BG eitehr (though he’s good).
I do agree and was pissed when we traded SMITH for 1 penny on the dollar….that was idiotic….I mean sure if he wasn’t in our plans, we trade him when he proves his value….
That was a stupid trade that totally squandered any hope of us recovering from the PJ-Tyson deal (Though I guess ankle injuries might hurt Tyson going forward, that was a fair trade at the time, and then we made the trade so instantly unfair, favoring the Hornets)…really annoying.
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
I'd start to like baseball
if I was forced to watch JR Smith and root for him.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on May 26, 2009 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm not saying he's bad
I’m saying everyone hates BG here and Gordon is far and away better than Smith (more disciplined, more consistent, better passer believe it or not, better ball handler believe it or not and a better and more coachable teammate)….but Smith is tall, I digress. THe nice thing about JR is the Nuggets got him on a value….
4/30/2009 GAME 6: Joakim Noah is God.
I think the silent majority likes BG.
It’s just the loud minority that make you think that.
Things could be worse. We could have kept Boylan.
by stupidgenius on May 27, 2009 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions
If Smith was worth more than nothing (or two 2nd round picks and an unguaranteed contract, whatever)
then they could’ve fetched more.
I guess my only problem would be any impatience being due to the rush to sign A-Drain with the savings. But I had no interest in the Bulls giving J.R. Smith the time to ‘blossom’ (it’s not like Karl trusts him yet anyway), and don’t really regret them not giving it a shot.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 26, 2009 4:21 PM CDT up reply actions
BTW...
i HATE the slow time. how about we make up some fake games to thread about, or fake news, just to talk? man, it kills me when BaB is this slow.
we went out for pizza after the game. -dave wannstedt
by BULLieving in Miami on May 26, 2009 1:55 PM CDT reply actions
We could post ECF, WCF and Finals game threads, if yfBB does not object.
"Whoever was responsible for pulling that offer [to Ben Gordon] off the table...bring him before me and I'll punch him right in the face " - Frederick Pfeiffer
by Granny Waiters on May 26, 2009 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions
I've been wondering about this, too.
I would be down. :)
go banannas.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 26, 2009 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions
yay!!
there is rejoycing in BaB-land. cool. yeah, playoff game threads sound fun, if y’all will be watching. who here will be witness?
we went out for pizza after the game. -dave wannstedt
by BULLieving in Miami on May 26, 2009 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions
Just for the record
Jerry Reindorf is loathsome and genuinely detracts from my desire to spend any time or money following the Chicago Bulls.
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