The Joakim Noah Argument...

by brose on Apr 23, 2009 4:03 AM CDT

I am a full supporter of Noah. I think he is integral to out success and want him in a Bulls uniform for years to come. As we all know, the 'casual' fan still thinks of Noah as a goof, and an untalented basketball player. Just a hustle player that is overacheving due to his effort. I tried to argue for Joakim's sake tonight to a rather average Bulls fan, and he just wasn't buying my argument. Which was that he is a terrific rebounder, an abover average passer for a big, and a decent man to man defender with a good basketball IQ. It really bothers me that he doesn't get his full due as a player, as I, as many of you, have watched him all season start to blossom into a solid player. What do you guys think could strengthen my argument to help convince the 'casual' fan that Noah is a solid player in the league?

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Basically any advanced rating system will rate Joakim as the Bulls' best player

- His 123 ORtg led the team
- His 105 DRtg is second to Tyrus’ 104
- His 6.5 WS were 2nd to Gordon’s 7.0, but had Joakim played Gordon’s 2999 minutes he’d be at 10.1
- His 2.1 actual APM last year was 2nd on the team last year to Luol Deng
- His 2.17 statistical APM this year led the team among players who’ve been here all year
- Hell, even PER which almost only counts offensive contributions rated him 2nd on the team behind Ben Gordon.
- You can expect him to be even better next year because of how much he’s improved offensively since January 25th.

Throw in his dominance against the Celtics this series: 12.5points, 12.5rebs, 2.5ast, 1.5stl, 3.5blk, and there’s no reason to think he’s anything other than a near-all-star level player. Can you tell I’ve been wanting to write a Joakim post for awhile?

by YaoPau on Apr 23, 2009 8:36 AM CDT reply actions 8 recs

lol

wow you’ve been collection stats for a while!!

See Red, BABY!

by iamsasquatch on Apr 23, 2009 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions

See this is

What I like to see here. Well thought out, well gathered, and damn if it doesn’t open my eyes a little more. I was just excited when we drafted Noah, and waiting on the return, but it looks like he’s been producing already.

"..what you mean? I'm a legend like Kareem!"

by CommittedToExcellence on Apr 23, 2009 9:57 AM CDT up reply actions

true, but if you used this argument amongst friends

they’d likely just walk away :)

USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 23, 2009 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions

then you should get smarter friends. :)

Fire Vinny.

by fundamentallysound on Apr 26, 2009 1:29 AM CDT up reply actions

Let's hope

that other NBA players feel the same way so Noah can fly under the radar. He made a bad ‘first impression’ in the NBA with the goofy suit on draft day, getting busted for pot, coming in to this season out of shape, and his frantic-looking play on the court. I, for one, see why he’s so valuable, and I’d like him to be the Bulls starting center for years to come.

by kozzer on Apr 23, 2009 9:25 AM CDT reply actions

Dude can scrap

…makes the most of what he has; needs to keep hitting the weights.

Also, has a winning attitude.

...there's some folks that, if they don't know, you can't tell 'em.

by Envy on Apr 23, 2009 9:35 AM CDT reply actions

I think if his off season training

can match his winning attitude he will finally start getting cred. If he has any episodes like last summer though I doubt he will shake his reputation any time soon no matter how well he plays. A lot of people don’t watch all of the games to see his progress. They do see the arrest reports though.

Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.

by cranscape on Apr 23, 2009 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions

real friends suck, stick to BaB?

honestly, people won’t get Noah. I guess one way to put it is that he’s good at the things he does well, and doesn’t try to do the things he doesn’t do well.

USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 23, 2009 9:55 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs

If the rest of the team did this, they'd probably have four or five more wins.

Of course, I put some of that blame on the coach but certainly not all. If only, if only.

People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett

by tyger1147 on Apr 23, 2009 8:41 PM CDT up reply actions

There are a lot of dumb people

Don’t waste your time trying to convince people that Noah’s a special player. Those that have eyes and a brain would agree with you. Unfortunately, some are like those from rival teams during his college days at Florida, just blind and prejudiced in their views. That didn’t stop him from winning two national titles. All that matters is that his teammates and John Paxson know what they have. Anybody else with differing views don’t matter. They are just idiots.

by SlamDunk on Apr 23, 2009 10:53 AM CDT reply actions

don't forget the whole starting lineup on that team is in the NBA...

by jmogs on Apr 23, 2009 11:16 PM CDT up reply actions

Or just look at basic stats

1.4 blocks (15th in NBA)
7.6 rebounds (26th)
3.1 offensive rebounds (12th)
55.7% FG%
And this is just playing 24 minutes per game.

That’s pretty good if you ask me. Wait until he starts playing 30-35 minutes per game!

by Rose MVP on Apr 23, 2009 11:42 AM CDT reply actions

It's still early

But if he stops being a goof (lately seems pretty focused) he could be a team leader. He seems to be the cheerleader already; during timeouts he seems to always be rallying the troops.

"Remember, I'm Italian".

by BCs71 on Apr 23, 2009 1:15 PM CDT reply actions

"If he stops being a goof"?

If you stop being a goof BCs71, then this blog would have more sanity. Noah doesn’t need your endorsement. The Boston writers who just had a good look at him are impressed. I know you would never come around so stop with your snide remarks and backhanded compliments.

by SlamDunk on Apr 23, 2009 2:04 PM CDT reply actions

Dude, you're taking things way too seriously. Tone down the rhetoric. He complimented Noah.

Fire Vinny.

by fundamentallysound on Apr 26, 2009 1:36 AM CDT up reply actions

I guess I am just an average fan...

I really like BaB, but sometimes I don’t get y’all… I agree with the post for the most part. Joakim ia a valuable piece. A good player who knows his role and sticks to his strengths.

But he’s a role player. Nothing more. And that’s important—-you need good solid role players. And I suppose he could be a near-All-Star (since Chandler has been ). But let’s be clear—-he is very limited. Despite vast improvements, he’s never going to have dazzling post moves. His hands are average at best. He seems to almost willfully avoid finishing strong. And he desperately needs to bulk up.

He’s good, but let’s not blow it out…

by jmogs on Apr 23, 2009 11:15 PM CDT reply actions

And he's only in his second year in the league.

His hands, for the most part, are pretty good(this series has made him look worse hands-wise than he really is) and once he gets stronger he’ll be able to better utilize the low-post moves he has worked on. He does have a nice little jump hook and finishes well off the glass, and once he gets strong enough to establish position deep in the paint he should have no problem scoring in the mid teens.

For the record, I was pissed when the Bulls picked Noah, but now I’m a fan.

by dakoose on Apr 26, 2009 2:16 AM CDT up reply actions

Actually, I thought he was the right pick at the time...

There was a seemingly big dropoff after him in the draft.

I like Joakim. And hope he will turn into the star that this post and the comments seem to state he is now. I think he will be a solid big man in the league with a lot of valuable intangibles. But not an elite player—-I hope I am wrong.

by jmogs on Apr 26, 2009 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions

Anyone still want Spencer Hawes?

With Hawes, it would be celtics in 4.

Maybe we can?

by Granny Waiters on Apr 26, 2009 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions

Ha! With Hawes, the Bulls don't even sniff the playoffs.

"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." --Newton

by fundamentallysound on Apr 26, 2009 10:23 PM CDT up reply actions

Celtics in 0!

Joakim Noah: Better than you.

by Prevenge on Apr 26, 2009 11:45 PM CDT up reply actions

Who said elite?

Look at the last line of the original post.

by dakoose on Apr 26, 2009 4:19 PM CDT up reply actions

You are absolutely right.

As I noted previously, I agree with pretty much everything in the post. Some of the followup is what I take issue with is a rec-ed follow up that states:

…there’s no reason to think he’s anything other than a near-all-star level player

The use of the present tense there is absolute homer-ism. He is not at that point yet—-but I hope he will get there.

by jmogs on Apr 26, 2009 8:47 PM CDT up reply actions