Bulls 113, Bobcats 106
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 12, 2009 12:35 PM CDT
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PrintAs it is my obsession, I'll start with the minutes distribution tonight, which was pretty excellent. Now, it's because Tim Thomas was still unavailable, Brad Miller fouled out in 18 minutes, and Gordon shot so well...but at least I wasn't seething all 4th quarter like usual.
The defense was still unimpressive and the Bobcats hung around a bit too long, but the Bulls have so much more talent (and this bizarre home court proficiency) I didn't really see it as a case of 'if' but 'when' they'd pull away from the 'Cats. I think Vinny felt a bit of confidence too, knowing that with a short bench he can't even make much of a difference if he wanted to. And it was sort of surprising that the VDN-led team was calm and productive down the stretch while the Larry Brown team imploded on offense...but it is usually about the players, and the Bulls have them.
Derrick Rose had another very strong game, making his first 7 shots, but more importantly it looks like in the past couple games he's looked far more comfortable dominating the ball and finding shooters.
And it looks more and more that 3-point shooting will be this team's identity. With Rose being able to command defensive attention he has this around him from behind the arc:
Ben Gordon - 41.0%
John Salmons - 41.6%
Kirk Hinrich - 42.1% (!)
Tim Thomas - 47.4%
Adding Brad Miller (being only 2 of 10 as a Bull but at least plausible range for a center), 3-point shooting looks to be one of the few things I can idenfity as something the Bulls do well as a team. It was Salmons' and Gordon's bombs that put away the Bobcats on Saturday. Even in transition, the Bulls seem more likely than most to kick back to the arc than to get a higher-percentage look inside.
So instead of hoping an actual offensive and defensive scheme will pop up in the next week, I can at least see launching 3s as something the Bulls can do to win a playoff game. The Bulls are also a top-5 offensive rebounding team which could help in that strategy.
But the most important way to get the shooters off is for Rose to keep attacking. They can't space the floor like Orlando can with Dwight Howard manning the middle, but if Rose is agressive and forces the defense to collapse it could have a similar effect. And anything Rose improves at is more important than the results this season anyway.
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It's taken probably a decade
But the Bulls are finally an average offensive team (14th in offensive efficiency according to B-R).
Unfortunately they won’t play the Bobcats in the playoffs, and I am really disliking the practice of kicking out for a 3 when someone is 5 feet from the basket in a transition scenario. Rose is money at the hoop, unless there’s 2 guys back on a fast break, he shouldn’t be passing for a shot that will go in fewer times than his layup attempt.
That Steve Nash is exactly the same as Kirk Hinrich, but worse.
by NBA Observer on Apr 8, 2009 12:23 PM CDT
by Ozzie Montana on Apr 12, 2009 12:49 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I'm not saying it'll be an effective playoff strategy
or a good long-term one. Just that it looks like it’s one thing this team can do well.
I’m also less impressed than you about Rose’s ability to finish at the rim. He missed a lot of gimmes too.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 12, 2009 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't know
I’ve seen Rose make a ton of contested layups over bigger defenders all year, and every guard misses some gimmes here and there.
My greatest enemy is my inner me
by TheCool1 on Apr 12, 2009 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
But he only misses them when the game is on the line!
I’m talking only about fastbreak situations. There’s nothing wrong with the drive and kick in the half-court, that’s about the only real offense they run. It’s stupid, however, when they have numbers and the guy who makes 56% of his close shots is passing out to Hinrich/Salmons/Gordon.
That Steve Nash is exactly the same as Kirk Hinrich, but worse.
by NBA Observer on Apr 8, 2009 12:23 PM CDT
by Ozzie Montana on Apr 12, 2009 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions
56%*2<42%*3.
Joakim Noah: Better than you.
by Prevenge on Apr 12, 2009 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions 6 recs
You are totally becoming soft.
I like your post, it gave me a warm fuzzy feeling inside. I think you are totally right about our offensive “identity” (using the term loosely) and I think that Tyrus’s persistence on shooting just reinforces our team as one that can spread the floor.
It's not a bad thing to do with Derrick-
spread the floor with shooters and let him attack. Long term, I want to see a power forward who can both hit a jumper and finish at the rim (Boozer? Amare? Bosh?) combined with the shooters, but failing that, this is the next best thing.
Derrick’s seemed absolutely in control of these last few games. He does need to work on his interior passing, but I think he’s been playing his best basketball. Plus, he’s doing better on the defensive end.
I’m hoping for Orlando. Minus their point guard and perhaps Hedo, they’re beatable. Plus, if Thibadeux’s Boston defense could swamp Kobe and the triangle, what will it do against Derrick and our one play?
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
im hoping for orlando as well
the celtics are defending champs, while the magic haven’t shown anything
by LoveForTheGame on Apr 12, 2009 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Thibodeau's defense ain't s* without Garnett, as the past few games demonstrate.
No one really knows how close to 100% he’ll be when he returns.
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
His defense is still quite good without Garnett, it's just not AS good.
Any time you take away one of the all-time great defenders in the league, it’s going to hurt your team defense. That’s just common sense.
Fire Vinny.
by fundamentallysound on Apr 13, 2009 12:22 AM CDT up reply actions
Quick question -
do we have the tiebreaker with Philly?
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
no
1st tiebreak is head to head, which is even, and second is conference record, which philly will have us on
well thats not 100% true
we can technically still tie or beat their conference record, however it will be irrelevant because if we tie their conference record, we will have a better overall record. they’re currently 24-25 in conference and we’re 23-27. if we finish the season tied record-wise with philly, whether it’s 42-42, 41-41, or 40-42, we will lose the tiebreak with them.
right
if all we do is win out at home, even if we drop the game to detroit, sixers still have games against boston and cleveland, and they very well could drop them both. but if we lose at detroit, and then they end up winning at miami (even if we win the last game), then they’d pass both us at philly and we’d still be in 7th. interesting.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
You are corredt that Derrick looked more comfortable dominating the ball
He looked fantastic making plays in the 1st quarter/half, but why all of a sudden did it all go out the window in the second half? The entire fourth quarter (minus any fast breaks) was Rose standing at the three point line passing to Gordon or Salmons after they come off of screens. It completely takes away Rose’s abilities and stunts his growth as a playmaker. He literally did NOTHING in the half court and I’m sick of seeing that bullshit.
"That's a spicy meatball-a!" - Vinny Del Negro
Ben and Salmons were kinda rolling, though.
I’d be more upset about it if they were playing poorly and we didn’t get the win. But you’re absolutely right: Derrick could be doing so much more.
But heck, that’s what next year’s for, and the year after that, and…
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
um
salmons started 1-9… and took 11 threes out of 18 shots (and only made 4 of them). at least he caught his groove a little, but can’t say he was rolling. a few of his shots were wide open looks though so can’t complain that much, but i would have liked to see him take it to the hoop a bit since he was struggling with his shot.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
talking about the second half:
Derrick was aggressive when Salmons was sucking, more passive when Salmons was rolling. But I agree that I’d like to see a more aggressive Rose!
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
Yea, but if it was just one game I wouldn't be upset
This has become a trend. Whenever the game gets to crunch time it’s like clockwork:
1. Team X misses shot/or makes (most likely)
2. Bulls rebound
3. Give the ball to Derrick
4. Derrick calls out play at half court
5. Salmons and Gordon run around off of screens
6. Derrick sits at the three point line with both hands on the ball watching with no intention whatsoever to do anything else
7. Derrick telegraphs a pass then runs to a corner and watches Gordon or Salmons go one on one
The only time that he sees the ball is if Team X is playing really good defense on Gordon or Salmons and they are forced to give the ball up. Obviously this is not EVERY time, but I would say 90% at least.
"That's a spicy meatball-a!" - Vinny Del Negro
by Juiceboxjerry on Apr 12, 2009 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
I hate it too
But when they run the pick and roll with Rose, Salmons and BG end up standing and doing nothing. The problem is that when Rose passes it off, Salmons and BG (or Hinrich) don’t reverse the ball, which is a player problem or a VDN problem. That leaves him in a corner and not really a threat
My greatest enemy is my inner me
Agreed, and rec'd--
what kind of offense is that? If there ever was an X’s and O’s aspect to that play, it seems like it was broken up. 3’s coming at the end of the shot clock after a completely broken (or dysfunctional) play? That’s no way to run an offense. Even if the 3’s are going in, which they were in the Philly game.
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
It's simple common sense
When the ball stops, reverse it. I think Rose would be even more of a threat then he already is if guys simply reversed the ball to him instead of seeing how many contested shots they can put up
My greatest enemy is my inner me
Do you think
…Derrick created that play you described?
...there's some folks that, if they don't know, you can't tell 'em.
We do have 2 high-volume shooters on our team
Salmons shot himself out of a slump, and BG was on fire the whole game. I’d much rather see Derrick with the ball trying to do something than Salmons just wasting shot-clock and firing up bricks. I like John and think he’s been a huge addition to the team, but they really need to realize he’s not that amazing of a player. He’s basically shooting out of his mind, and he’s pretty selfish with the ball. I actually didn’t mind the 3 guard lineup yesterday because Kirk will at least try and find a scoring opportunity for someone.
That Steve Nash is exactly the same as Kirk Hinrich, but worse.
by NBA Observer on Apr 8, 2009 12:23 PM CDT
by Ozzie Montana on Apr 12, 2009 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions
After watching him I don't know if I'd call it selfishness
I think it’s just that, that is the way he plays. It’s just his game. He has to dribble himself into shots and he likes to take people one on one. Sure there are times where he could pass, but I think it’s more him just playing his game rather than being selfish per se. When he’s going well it’s awesome, when he plays like he did in the first half it sucks.
"That's a spicy meatball-a!" - Vinny Del Negro
by Juiceboxjerry on Apr 12, 2009 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Which is different from Ben
because Ben is an amazing shotmaker. He doesn’t necessarily need to dribble to get his shot. In fact the team would be a lot better off if he would stick more to catching and shooting. What bugs me about Ben is when he hasn’t taken a shot in a while, most likely because the opposing team is playing good off the ball defense, and he forces a drive or a terrible shot early in the shot clock. Other than that, he’s just sick.
"That's a spicy meatball-a!" - Vinny Del Negro
by Juiceboxjerry on Apr 12, 2009 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Yes, on the money once again...
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
Whether it's a character thing or not, the way he plays IS selfish.
It was the same with Nocioni. I have no reason to believe that Nocioni is a selfish person away from the court, and I’d even guess he didn’t think he wanted to be selfish. But he played like it.
I think Salmons is the same. There’s no reason to think Salmons is a selfish person off the court, or that he even has a mindset of “I have to get mine” on the court. But he doesn’t pass well, and he dribbles a lot (similar to Gordon, of course). Personally, I like using “selfish” even if it is less-nuanced, but then I don’t really try to worry about personalities too much, other than how it affects their play.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
I think we're basically saying the same thing
If you prefer to call it “selfish” that’s fine by me. I just think it has negative undertones that aren’t accurate when talking about the guy. He just plays more one on one style basketball, I think it’s really that simple.
"That's a spicy meatball-a!" - Vinny Del Negro
by Juiceboxjerry on Apr 12, 2009 3:07 PM CDT up reply actions
... and mine are not.
"That's a spicy meatball-a!" - Vinny Del Negro
by Juiceboxjerry on Apr 12, 2009 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
If Salmons is selfish
then you should say the same about BG.
He already remarked in the similarity
Playing selfish isn’t exactly a bad thing. Salmons and BG are on side of the spectrum, while guys like Gooden or Nocioni are on the other.
That Steve Nash is exactly the same as Kirk Hinrich, but worse.
by NBA Observer on Apr 8, 2009 12:23 PM CDT
by Ozzie Montana on Apr 12, 2009 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Seemed like that pertained only to the dribbling alot.
Doesn’t matter.
To me Salmons is a taller version of BG… ;) And tall is good… :D
selfish is a bad term to use...
selfish means to that you are only concerned about yourself and you lack consideration for others. I would hope guys like Salmons and Gordon are trying to score to help the team win because they certainly do help out the team when they score.
by LoveForTheGame on Apr 12, 2009 6:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Salmons is nothing like Nocioni
Salmons plays within his abilities. Might as well compare Jordan to Nocioni, since Jordan too took a lot of shots. The only time I see Salmons making bad decisions is when he occasionally shoots a contested 3 point shot instead of passing it, but he still makes a good percentage of those.
He’s shooting 48.6% overall and 41.6% from 3 point range, for a true shooting percentage of .611 as a Chicago Bull. We have a big enough sample size to say if he’s simply on a hot streak, he’s not cooling down anytime soon. For as long as he’s on the hot streak, I don’t want him to give up the ball to people that are less effective scorers than him.
It’s ridiculous to call it “selfishness” in a bad way for him to take the highest percentage shot on the floor, which happens to be the one coming out of his hands. Why should he be passing it instead of shooting it? Who should he be passing it to that’s going to have a better chance of scoring than him?
So, your observational skills have led you to conclude...
…that every shot he takes his a high-percentage shot? I think that’s stupid. I simply how good he’d be if only eliminate his lower-percentage shots. Oh!
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Runningman is trying to point out that Salmons isn't like Nocioni
he admits that Salmons has taken contested threes that are occasionally stupid. But for the most part he is putting up high quality shots because he is putting up a great percentage from the floor. Salmons is a scorer, so he looks to score. That’s his game.
by LoveForTheGame on Apr 12, 2009 6:31 PM CDT up reply actions
I know what he was doing.
But John Salmons is more interested in putting up a contested, “bad” shot than passing out of it. That’s selfish basketball.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Please humour me
BG does not fit this description? And in his case it’s ok, because?
BG does fit that description to degree and in the past tyger has called BG
out for extremely selfish play. Also, BG passes a LOT more than Nocioni or Salmons.
Fire Vinny.
by fundamentallysound on Apr 12, 2009 10:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Well,
that’s because it’s true.
Joakim Noah: Better than you.
however, johns assist avg has dropped almost in half since he came to the bulls...
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
John's AST% = 8.6% since joining the Bulls
Ben’s AST% = 16%. Ben passes a LOT more than John.
Fire Vinny.
by fundamentallysound on Apr 12, 2009 11:44 PM CDT up reply actions
as i said, i noticed that his assist avg has dropped since joining the bulls
and his assist% has suffered the same amount, seeing as his ast% was over 17 this season with sacramento. this would indicate he is capable of passing at a reasonable rate, and about equal with ben. this indicates to me it seems to be a function of our “offense”.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
sacramento doesn't really have a point guard
so he was allowed to control the ball more, while in Chicago his job is to score and let rose and hinrich control the ball
by LoveForTheGame on Apr 12, 2009 11:58 PM CDT up reply actions
yeah, but he should still pass more
but i think it’s to be blamed on the “offense” as i said.
luol’s AST% was down to 9% from 13.2% last year. tyrus’s is down to a whopping 5.6% from 11%. even the black holes gooden and nocioni’s ast% from last year were higher (though not as much of a drop). seems like it is a function of our forwards to shoot the ball rather than pass.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
by Jaina on Apr 13, 2009 12:11 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
it isn't at all
They look to pass just about the same. Ben Gordon has a higher turnover rate. Salmons shoots a higher field goal and 3 point percentage, just sayin
by LoveForTheGame on Apr 12, 2009 11:10 PM CDT up reply actions
John's AST% is 8.6% since joining the Bulls
Ben’s AST% is 16% this year. So Ben passes about twice as often as John. Rate statistics are your friends, use them.
Fire Vinny.
by fundamentallysound on Apr 12, 2009 11:44 PM CDT up reply actions
good stat
i’ll give you that, for some reason though Salmons is really down statistically in assists since joining Chicago. Can anyone explain this? it’s probably Vinny’s fault
by LoveForTheGame on Apr 12, 2009 11:59 PM CDT up reply actions
a lot of it is the offense
which makes it so it’s hard for anyone to get credited with an assist, but Ben and John are both working within that offense and Ben is getting more assists.
Also, because of the nature of the offense and it’s dampening effect on assist totals, it makes it more important to actually watch the players and I can tell you just from watching them that Ben passes the ball a lot more frequently than John.
That’s not meant to be a knock on Salmons, because his court vision just isn’t that great, and it’s a flaw in his game. I’ve seen him make some great passes, but on the whole, he doesn’t look to pass and he’s just not as skilled or prolific a passer as BG, which is sort of strange to say because Ben isn’t that big on the whole passing thing either.
Fire Vinny.
by fundamentallysound on Apr 13, 2009 12:21 AM CDT up reply actions
Did you ever consider "selfish" isn't a negative term?
When someone calls Gordon or Salmons selfish, well they’re just stating the truth. Both guys shoot a ton, and don’t pass all that much. Doesn’t mean they’re bad players. However, if a guy is bricking 9-10 jumpshots and is ONLY looking for his shot, then something needs to change. That goes for any player on this team.
Bottom line is, the ball should be Rose’s to give off. When Salmons/Gordon are on fire, then it’s ok to just let them go at it. That is not, however, good offensive strategy for a full 48 minute game.
That Steve Nash is exactly the same as Kirk Hinrich, but worse.
by NBA Observer on Apr 8, 2009 12:23 PM CDT
by Ozzie Montana on Apr 12, 2009 6:32 PM CDT up reply actions
selfish is a negative term
Salmons and Gordon aren’t shooting the ball for their personal needs. They are shooting the ball a ton to help win the Bulls games. They are both scorers, so they shoot the ball a lot. A selfish individual is someone like Marbury or Iverson, who play for themselves and don’t particularly care about winning. I don’t think anyone would approve of being called selfish, so don’t act like it’s not a negative term.
by LoveForTheGame on Apr 12, 2009 6:35 PM CDT up reply actions
selfish certainly does have a negative connotation
and sure both guys have made selfish plays, but i wouldn’t call their play as a whole selfish.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
Well, I think it is negative.
When a guy would rather put up a contested “bad” shot than pass out of it, I call that bad basketball. Unless he’s one of the best players in the game.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
While Brad Miller might only be 2 for 10 from 3P for the Bulls, on the year
he is shooting 41.5% from deep on 53 3P shots. Not too shabby, and definitely enough to stretch the floor.
Fire Vinny.
by fundamentallysound on Apr 12, 2009 2:10 PM CDT reply actions
In the 4th qtr I saw Salmons roll off a pick by Miller
He went to the left side of the key and both defenders followed him, leaving Miller open at the top of the key. But instead of passing back to Miller he drove the baseline. I don’t remember what happened then-my point being that Rose/Miller isn’t the only combination that needs to sharpen up.
Wait, what?
Did you reply to the right post? I don’t get it.
Joakim Noah: Better than you.
He's saying Miller was wide open for a 3, but Salmons didn't pass it to him
That Steve Nash is exactly the same as Kirk Hinrich, but worse.
by NBA Observer on Apr 8, 2009 12:23 PM CDT
by Ozzie Montana on Apr 12, 2009 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah,
but fundamentallysound’s post had nothing to do with that. I don’t see the context. You could say the first part is an explanation for Miller taking so few 3’s, but the second part -
‘I don’t remember what happened then-my point being that Rose/Miller isn’t the only combination that needs to sharpen up.’
reads like it’s from a different conversation. Probably from earlier in the topic [I think I remember it], but it’s just kind of confusing.
Joakim Noah: Better than you.
I must say I deliberated for a while as to where to put that post.
Has to do with how the Bulls’ need to improve their playmaking, who has to improve and where. Somewhat confusing I admit.
I was trying to be consistent
since I had Salmons’ 3P% as a Bull.
Though I agree with your point.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 12, 2009 9:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, I wasn't so much saying you should have posted the info, just making it known that Miller
is generally a better 3P shooter than he has been for us, thus far. Small sample size and whatnot.
Fire Vinny.
by fundamentallysound on Apr 12, 2009 10:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Is it just me or
is Orlando losing purposely so that they won’t have the chance to play Detroit in case we slip to the 8th?
"...Lies, damned lies, and statistics."
Defense
My playoffs keys to victory:
Derrick attack!
Energy at Home, Energy at Away
Full Speed: Run
Eat a good supper
No TO
Simplify Offense unless called.
Enjoy being in the playoffs.
-not really some expert’s keys there..haha
play at least 8 games
that would be success in my book….
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
If Derrick decides to take over, nobody will ever stop him in the playoffs, He will eat:
Rondo alive, Mo “the 2nd round pick who is now an all-star” alive, Rafer alston alive, old mike bibby alive, mario chalmers alive, andre miller alive, stuckey alive.
Derrick Rose colored glasses, gives you a "ROSY" outlook.
ha
i like the !… after kirks percentage
I remember Michael dribbling at the top of the key. Everybody knew to just get the hell out of his way. - Steve Kerr
There is a lot of talk in this thread about Salmons
passing the ball less here than he did in Sacramento. Does anybody actually know how much time he split at the 2 guard spot while there? The only Sac games I have watched were when we played them. He is listed as a G/F, but with the exception of a few minutes at guard and (Vinny’s insane small ball lineup) some time at the power forward, but he has primarily played the small forward since he has been here. A guard is much more likely to be moving the ball around than a forward in most offenses. This is one of the reasons BG has a higher AST% rate imo.
"I can accept failure, but I can't accept not trying." -- Michael Jordan
by bennythebull on Apr 13, 2009 4:59 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
true and i was thinking along those lines as well
and i think my comment above reflected that:
seems like it is a function of our forwards to shoot the ball rather than pass.
and i mean that with respect to our offense because again as i pointed out above all our forwards’ assist rates were down. i didn’t say explicitly though that because salmons has spent more time at the 3 that that’s one good reason why his assists and ast% are down.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
But what if Salmons runs a pick and roll with Miller
and the two guards follow him. Shouldn’t he look for Miller at the top of the key and pass the ball to Miller if he’s open?
i'm not saying what he should or shouldn't do
but he had a higher ast% than gordon while in sacramento, and he’s halved it since coming here. that shows he’s capable of passing at a reasonable rate. given the drop in luol, tyrus, and andres and drew’s (while they were here) assist statistics from last year, it seems like it has something to do with our offense that the forwards do not pass that often.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
Yeah, I was gonna write a comment about this.
Thanks for saving me the effort ;)
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