Folks... umm... I think there may actually be a case for VDN staying:(
by Dils on Apr 11, 2009 2:05 PM CDT
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PrintLet me start off by saying that I've been one to critisize VDN and honestly I want him gone. But I've been thinking lately about something. When I compare him to Scott Skiles first few seasons here, I think I would choose VDN's style and success over Skiles. Why?
Because I watched an experienced coach like Scott Skiles run Tyson Chandler out of town. Because I watched an experienced coach like Skiles not want to coach guys like JR Smith and Tim Thomas while those guys played deep in the playoffs that year. Because I watched an experienced coach like Skiles get into pissing matches with players and argue over headbands. Because I watched and experienced coach like Skiles religously start out each season 0-8 or 2-10 as if he didn't know his own players and what there roles should be. Also, he didn't have the greatest substituions patterns himself (See not playing Tyrus more against the Pistons in the '06 playoffs or him benching BG against the Wizards in the final minutes of the final playoff game in '05). My point is experience isn't everything.
Hey X and Os wise Skiles is one of the best in the league but in other facets of the game VDN is better and (I can't believe I'm saying this) may have earned another shot next year. The main reason for this may be because of another important part of coaching...Player Development. It's hard to argue against VDN when it comes to the development of Tyrus and Noah. I know injuries had a part in these kids playing more but we all know if Skiles were here these guys would've still had a hard time getting minutes. From what I've read, VDN encouraged TT to shoot his jumper more. Some don't like it but it breeds confidence in a young player like Tyrus and pushes him to explore other parts of his game. Now we're starting to see why he was drafted where he was. While Rose is going to be great, shouldn't the head coach be given a small amount of credit? Trust me if Rose was having the same season with Avery Johnson or Scott Skiles coaching, we'd be reading countless articles about how Rose has developed under the guidence and tutelage of a coach who played the position.
OK maybe I'm bored and just looking to drum up some controversy and conversation but hey that's why we're here right? I've watch VDN lose at least 5-7 games on his own this year and yes I'm sick of him and of his dumb decisions and even dumber timeouts. But you know what? Part of a coaches job is to get the best out of his players and honestly folks we got a ROY at PG, a starting 2-guard having his most consistent year as a pro, and a starting PF and Center having career years. Meanwhile VDN is going to be coaching a possble 6th seed in the playoffs while the guy we all wanted, Mike Dantoni will be watching at home. Sorry but honestly, the Bulls may actually have a credible explanation for bringing this guy back.
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he'll be exposed during the playoffs.
When teams scouting the Bulls realize they have no plays.
Brad Miller's pump fake will paralyze you. We call it the Cobra.
Oh
If Im the Bulls I would hire his replacement as assistant coach. Like Phil to Doug Collins.
Brad Miller's pump fake will paralyze you. We call it the Cobra.
I was definitely a skeptic pre-season, but things change... maybe for the better
“The main reason for this may be because of another important part of coaching…Player Development. It’s hard to argue against VDN when it comes to the development of Tyrus and Noah.”
What else needs to be said… We weren’t playing for a championship this year! And we definitely weren’t playing for a draft pick. Lord know we’ve had enough of them. Basically this was a year to develope players and get our books ready for free-agency.. If you can think of different pre-season goals, I’d like to hear them. But I remember those as being the biggest two; and only one is related to Vinny’s job. Vinny has accomplished this goal, and still managed to secure at Least the 7th seed.
Also, the Bulls have increased their ppg every month for the last 5. We’re over 109 ppg in the month of April. Please, re-read what I just wrote. Vinny’s Coaching – where amazing happens! ;) The teams is developing and coming together. Meaning chemistry. We now have an identity. Remember pre-season, when the huge concern was, what would be our identity? I’m not going to say we’re an offensive juggernot, or a devensive stopper. But we like we know what we’re doing out there! We’re competitive night in and night out. And players are playing within themselves. Everyone knows their roles! Some of this has to do with coaching. Bottom line, Vinny HAS earned the right to coach next year. Congratulations Vinny
Don't give the credit for whatever progress
Noah and Tyrus has made to VDN. He’s only played them cause there is noone else. Noah has gotten far too few minutes, only averaging 24/game. This number is more than 50% less than it should have been. (should have been at least 36)
Look, with this talent we have right now we should be no lower than a 4th seed in the east. Is Atlanta better than us talent-wise? No, it’s cause we have a coaching staff that’s like an anchor.
We have NO ORGANIZED DEFENSE! And NO ORGANIZED OFFENSE. And NOT A SINGLE WORKING TIMEOUT PLAY. I could go on, but the Laker game is starting. You should watch to, since you clearly have no clue what a working coaching staff looks like. :P
And we’re not guaranteed the 7th seed. we can get from 6-8. (It will be 8 cause Detwat will beat us tomorrow)
Gah, all you VDN apologists popping out from everywhere are p’ing me off!!
by BAB-Bass on Apr 12, 2009 8:53 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Pretty much everyone agrees, I think, on the lack of defensive scheme, and
I for one agree on the lack of an offensive scheme. The high number of PPG should not fool us.
This team has a bunch of shot makers. And that’s the only reason it masquerades as a functional team on offense. By that I mean, if you look at the latter part of the season and all of the points we put on the board, and all of those great runs, how many of those points came at the end of a broken play, as opposed to a play called by Vinny/Rose? From what I’ve seen, way too many.
The Philly game was the perfect example. The Sixers would deny the entry pass, the Bulls would pass around on the perimeter, and either Salmons or Gordon would end up with the ball at the arc and time winding down on the shotclock. In that game, a number of these kinds of possessions ended in a swished 3-pointer, which is great.
But what happens in the playoffs, when the rims get a little tighter and the fouls go un-called? What happens when Vinny is called upon to actually coach, draw up some plays?
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
fouls go uncalled?
because soo many of our players get decent calls now?
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
Yeah, true. The refs always put their whistles away
when the Bulls are the ones getting fouled.
But what I should have said was that games get so much more physical in the playoffs. The contact refs would call in a February game they won’t in a late April game. So the ref treatment of not calling fouls when they’re committed against Bulls players is only going to get more egregious.
For a team so reliant on 3-point shooting to end a broken play, this is even more of a problem…
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
They only call the fouls
In the last second of the game when Scottie Pippen touches John Starks’s fingertips (in basketball rule that’s part of the ball and not a foul) after the ball left his hand for a desperation 3 pointer in a critical game 6 or game 7…….
4-9-09: Ok, so Vinny's not great, but maybe he has a future as an assistant coach.
A young Hubert Davis got that call... it wasn't even a vet like Starks
"I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany." - Ron Burgundy
Our shot makers
In the past though couldn’t score….
4-9-09: Ok, so Vinny's not great, but maybe he has a future as an assistant coach.
tHAT'S A Lazy response
I seriously don’t buy that at all….watch the games of late, we’ve been running a pretty solid offense.
Our D is questionable, some substitution patterns are questionable, but the offense has been moving and pretty solid of late. You don’t score, what 109 pts a game and increase your scoring avg each month to well over 100 pts, from 99.6, by not running anything.
We don’t run a traditional offense, sure, but we don’t have traditional players with the still lack of a low post game (Brad Miller’s a good player, but he’s not and never really has been a traditional low post guy)….
I am critical of VDN, but not for offense, for the d, sub patterns, and late game mgmt.
4-9-09: Ok, so Vinny's not great, but maybe he has a future as an assistant coach.
I mean, yeah, "no plays" is technically a term that could apply to the vaunted
triangle offense, too. But let’s face it, Vinny’s offense is not nearly as complicated or elegant as the triangle offense.
One of the podcasters (perhaps Doug Thonus, can’t remember) I think described it pretty well when he said it’s basically an offense predicated upon getting out and running on the fast break, but when in the half court, that’s where this offense runs into challenges. They basically run a pick-and-roll on one side of the floor, and if nothing’s there, they just reverse it and try it again.
Seriously, that’s all you’ve got, Vinny?
The point is not whether it’s working for you. The point is, this is supposed to be basketball at the highest level, and this offense doesn’t measure up.
The upshot is that it will be exposed during the playoffs when (1) teams get more physical, (2) the law of averages and/or the Bulls’ inexperience and youth causes them to miss an uncharacteristically high number of jump shots in any given game/series; and (3) teams turn up the defensive intensity, meaning that predictable and stale offenses will lead to fast breaks going the other way.
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
Or...
We play a team like the Celtics who might be a step too slow to keep up with multiple fast breaks… A boy can dream :)
"Playoffs? Are we talking about playoffs? Really, I mean... Playoffs?"
by Khalid El-Amin on Apr 13, 2009 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions
Agreed...
Look, we remained fans through the rebuilding years decade. That makes us eternal optimists, if you ask me…
(Of course, memories of 6 championships in 8 years may have a little bit to do with it…)
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
Ya know
Fair points, but I think of late our plays in the half court have dramatically improved….I wonder if that’s on Rose’s comfort level, as he’s been spectacular, and when he’s hitting that jumper, it keeps the d more honest so he can actually cause more plays from the PG spot.
I thought our half court offense looked far better wtih the little Noah plays, etc that it has all season…incidentally it’s come at the same time Rose has been much more confident wtih his already unfairly maligned jumper….the dude’s going to be something and is already pretty solid.
4-9-09: Ok, so Vinny's not great, but maybe he has a future as an assistant coach.
bleh
the only reason why everyone expected Vinny to be fired this season is because he is a rookie coach coming from a non-coaching position. come to think of it, if we hired D’Antoni and, had we not made it to the playoffs(like him and the Knicks), i wonder what comments would all this bloggers put here against him..For now, at least give VDN credit even if we all think that he can’t coach. Maybe he’s a motivational speaker like Jackie Moon who knows. But taking the Bulls in the playoffs in his first year and having to coach a rookie PG..come on. don’t get me wrong, i’m not against him or for him, (i was rooting for Avery Johnson during the offseason) but give this guy credit and let’s just support him and the bulls this postseason coz i think it is better,..right?
Yeah I'm with you.
Maybe I sipping Bulls Kool-aid and trust me I dont care for VDN’s in-game decisions but the facts are the facts and the guy is coaching in the playoffs. I’m for him leaving but I guess I’m being chatitable and trying to give the guy some credit. He is the head coach of a team going onto the playoffs hot.
Wow. That's the Chicago way. Lower the standards so the masses are happy with... whatever.
:-)
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
I have a lot of problems with Vinny's...
… substitution patterns, timeouts, and general lack of strategy, but I didn’t expect much out of him this year anyway. What I was looking for back in October was consistent improvement in Vinny’s coaching and the teams’ overall performance and that has happened. Many give credit to the improvement of the Bulls to the Sacremento trade, but the Bulls had won 6 of their previous 10 before that trade, so the upswing was already started — although clearly the team has improved because of that trade. Perhaps Vinny can develop into a good coach, one that can get the most out of a talented roster. Paxson chose Vinny, and I always give Paxson the benefit of the doubt. It’s far too early to call for his head, especially since the team has exceeded most expectations this year, and with many significant injuries to boot.
Besides the bad timeouts, bad substitutions, having no plays, no strategy, and being virtually unable to make ingame gameplan adjustments
I’d say he’s been a pretty good coach
"Whenever Kirk/Ben are in together. Kirk turns into a crappy player, because he tries to freeze Gordon out of the offense." - Andrew7
by gobulls1124 on Apr 11, 2009 4:05 PM CDT reply actions 4 recs
You make a great case for Vinny staying
i’ve been up in the air about this too. I love the fact that the young guys are developing as well
I'm pretty sure they're only developing because they're getting minutes
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
by Illini15 on Apr 11, 2009 6:19 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
i would say there are other variables besides minutes that are helping development
by LoveForTheGame on Apr 12, 2009 6:41 PM CDT up reply actions
Brad Miller being on the team ...
natural development with time …
err … can’t think of anything else that could possibly be going on.
Joakim Noah: Better than you.
Well, staying w/ the thread, I was thinking more of "Like what, in terms of VDN?"
My fault for not being more specific.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Well, at least VDN giving dumb rotation minutes...
But minutes just the same, is better than Skiles and Boylan yanking TT every time he launched a pass into the front row.
Although, one could argue that TT doesn’t do that as often BECAUSE he got yanked so much his first couple of years.
I don’t really know.
"Playoffs? Are we talking about playoffs? Really, I mean... Playoffs?"
by Khalid El-Amin on Apr 13, 2009 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions
I think that's a bit much to say
Because Tyrus was still doing the stupid plays early this year. I think Tyrus always needed confidence and think he wanted to always prove his game to his coach, rather than have his coach play him and show him when to take his chances and when to just play….and that’s been happening since mid Dec this year….
But yeah that’s one of the few consistently good things Vinny has done….which is why he’d make a nice assistant coach :).
4-9-09: Ok, so Vinny's not great, but maybe he has a future as an assistant coach.
No, I know.
I was making the point that VDN shouldn’t get any credit for developing players, especially since the only reason they got better from playing is because people got injured.
Joakim Noah: Better than you.
I've also had my angst regarding Vinnie but
he has this team playing good basketball and it is April 12th. Skiles may have better plays after timeouts, etc but he lost the players. Vinny has kept this team together. I think he also has improved his substitutions. We have a young team and if Vinny can continue to grow he and the team can grow together. There appears to be chemistry on this team and Vinny is an important part of the chemistry. He can learn more about the X and Os over the next couple of years. Personality doesn’t change and Vinny’s personality works with our players. For now ………… he is a keeper.
Seems this whole Stockholm syndrome thing is contagious...
No, no, no VDN must go!
It's in a hostage situation
You’re being held hostage and during the process you start sympathizing with those holding you hostage.
I feel it’s fitting in this scenario… ;)
Not only that
You also start supporting them and helping them
yea seriously
nice post, I was waiting for someone to write one of these
by LoveForTheGame on Apr 12, 2009 6:42 PM CDT up reply actions
the bottom line is that all of us here who have been here since the beginning of the season,
expected the bulls to win about 35 games this season. we all expected vinny to make a ton of mistakes because he was a rookie…… and he has. and we expected another year in the lottery. Vinny has definitely lost about 6 games this year on his own. easily. and yet, the bulls have exceeded our expectations. like some have already mentioned, we are in the playoffs with a rookie coach who has developed the hell out of TT and noah, and who has let our future star play through mistakes. Lets see what happens in his 2nd year, cause whether we like it or not, he will be back next year.
No, not "all of us."
There were many, including myself, yfBB, fundamentallysound and others, who recognized the talent on this team and that they were at least a .500 team and probably closer to 45 wins.
And we all also expected the playoffs.
And they haven’t exceeded our expectations.
Nor have we seen any dramatic improvements in the overall improvement of the team.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
haven't seen some overall improvement of the team?
talk about the Bulls becoming one of the hottest teams in the NBA and winning 11 of their last 14 games compared to what we were seeing at the beginning of the season. Plenty of the young guys have shown a significant improvement in their confidence level as well. Something has to be going right here.
by LoveForTheGame on Apr 12, 2009 10:44 PM CDT up reply actions
What??????
All of a sudden VDN has developed the hell outta TT and Noah??
I dunno whether to laugh or cry, barf or die!
Not me
I expected a 41 win year….which we might get and should beat with 42, though we kind of disappointed to get there cuz Rose was a LOT better than I expected out of the gate…..though I expected a roster balancing trade in early Dec using Hinrich…..and we had a LOT more injuries that expected….so I guess perhaps we overperformed to underperform….
Though if we make the 2nd round, I’ll be singing Hare Krishna.
4-9-09: Ok, so Vinny's not great, but maybe he has a future as an assistant coach.
I expected a heavy emphasis on player development and defense
such that by the end of the year the Bulls would be quite respectable.
Well, the player development hasn’t been because of a dedicated plan. Plus no defense. Except the Bulls are somewhat respectable, but not what I was expecting. The absense of player development and defense goes straight back to coaching.
I'd take Vinny over Cartwright, Floyd, Skiles, Boylan
Tyger’s right that we should be rating him on “is he actually good” instead of “is he better than what we’ve had before”, but after 10 years of coaches that weren’t even in tune with their players, I’m happy that we at least have one with some potential.
To me, the most impressive things from VDN this season are Tyrus’ 27.4mpg and Rose’s 36.9mpg. I agree with Dils – after the way Tyrus started off this season, it would’ve been easy for a coach to bury him like Skiles and Boylan did, but VDN kept giving him minutes. And as much as Matt has slammed Vinny’s 4th quarter Rose-benchings, the on-court point differentials of Hinrich (+209) and Rose (-149) show the Bulls would probably have a better record if Hinrich played more. For a 1st year coach who wanted to show he can take this Bulls team back to the playoffs, sticking with Rose took balls, and I think we’ll look back and appreciate the risks VDN took to stick with unproven talents that other coaches would’ve benched.
No, sticking with Rose took
Pax TELLING VDN directly to STICK WITH ROSE!
Remember??
(I don’t usually go all Caps-lock-happy like tonite, but you VDN-fellaters are really stroking my goat (The wrong way!))
That was just in crunch time
Based on +/-, it should’ve been Hinrich playing the 36.9mpg and Rose playing 26.5. But VDN said before the season that he wanted to give our young guys a shot and he’s done that.
Oh, you evil man!
You know my achilles heel is a preference for the +/- stat, but I will persevere nonetheless and stick to my claim that you don’t determine minute distibution based on that when you have the num 1 pick at that position!!
You seriously mean that Rose should have played 26 minutes this year?
“That as JUST in crunch time” If you’re gonna defend VDN in his decision to bench Rose in favour of Kurt in crunch time I’m afraid we’re just not gonna find any common ground.
Spoelstra has given Beasley 24mpg
Mostly because Spoelstra is a first-year coach that wants to show he can win now. Kevin McHale has done the same thing with Kevin Love, even after Al Jefferson got hurt.
Uhmm.. I don't see how this is relevant in the least
I don’t care what other coaches do with other players that aren’t on our team.
Playing Rose 24 MPG would have been a huge mistake. Much like I think it was a huge mistake playing Noah only 24 MPG…
I'm saying giving Rose 36mpg wasn't a no-brainer decision
There are high picks in every draft that don’t get enough floor time because coaches aren’t willing to be patient. I agree that playing Rose 24mpg is a mistake, but VDN deserves credit for making the right move when a lot of coaches wouldn’t.
He had no choice because of injury, though.
Joakim Noah: Better than you.
But Rose
Was playing a ton of minutes right from the get go…..so I think that’s easier to say in retrospect that it was because of the injury….I don’t think that’s the case. Paxson really wanted Hinrich to start, to let Rose get accustomed to the NBA slowly for confidence building…..
That was the Skilesian way.
4-9-09: Ok, so Vinny's not great, but maybe he has a future as an assistant coach.
Hey, its self preservation!
Since JR is too cheap to replace Vinny with an experienced coach, we might as well make the best of what we have to deal with.
Maybe we can?
by Granny Waiters on Apr 12, 2009 9:11 PM CDT up reply actions
Please don't come here with sensible arguments that we can agree on! ;)
He has GOT to realize we need JVG as coach to make any progress next season!
I DEMAND it!
"progress" next season...
will be a relative thing. If we lose BG we’ll be lucky to make the playoffs again.
"Playoffs? Are we talking about playoffs? Really, I mean... Playoffs?"
by Khalid El-Amin on Apr 12, 2009 10:27 PM CDT up reply actions
How soon we are forgetting Drew Gooden's groin?
Maybe Vinny would have won a few more games by playing Rose less (except Kirk was not in a uniform for almost 3 months), but he was specifically hired to develop players. It’s what Paxson liked about him, it’s what slick Vinny touted himself at the introductory press conference, it’s the silver lining we all took out of the hire.
Tyrus got the starting job, that was nice. His leash to learn how to play through mistakes lasted exactly 3 weeks before he was demoted back to the bench. He didn’t start another game till after Christmas, and has thankfully remained as the starter.
Maybe Vinny deserves credit for Rose getting so much run to basically acclimate himself to the NBA. The way I see it, that was going to happen because a)that’s what he promised early on, and b) injuries basically necessitated Rose play a ton of minutes. I’ve been saying that Vinny will likely improve as a head coach (he isn’t a complete douche like Terry Porter), but we can’t afford to let him learn the job. The team is ready to improve immediately.
That Steve Nash is exactly the same as Kirk Hinrich, but worse.
by NBA Observer on Apr 8, 2009 12:23 PM CDT
by Ozzie Montana on Apr 12, 2009 10:32 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I should also add that Ben Gordon started the season on the bench
And that Kirk Hinrich’s injury basically prevented any prolonged soap opera between the two players for the SG spot, especially when Larry Hughes came back. Looking back, Hinrich is probably the team MVP for first getting hurt and letting Rose just play through all the bullshit, then realizing how little he means to the team’s future but still going out and playing extremely well.
That Steve Nash is exactly the same as Kirk Hinrich, but worse.
by NBA Observer on Apr 8, 2009 12:23 PM CDT
by Ozzie Montana on Apr 12, 2009 10:36 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ben Gordon
Also pouted his way through the preseason, which was a real shame and cost us the first game or two this year cuz he wasn’t ready to play…..
Ben never did that in the past, but I certainly don’t buy that toe injury one bit with how he played the one preseason game he played…..
4-9-09: Ok, so Vinny's not great, but maybe he has a future as an assistant coach.
When did that happen?
How are you questioning a toe injury and calling it pouting?
Yes
I am questioning it when the toe injury cost him all but like the 3rd to last game of the preseason, where BG came in, lit ’em up and then sat some more….
Odd behavior from BG (whom I really like and have really liked) especially after the offseason. I think he was sitting to prove his worth…..and because he sat Vinny even said we’re going to first play the guys who played for us.
4-9-09: Ok, so Vinny's not great, but maybe he has a future as an assistant coach.
No way
Look I’m not about to question a guy who for the most part has been injury proof as a player and has never had his effort on the court questioned. Just to say he was pouting because he missed some preseason games is not fair. Besides, I think a lot of BG in terms of coming in this year despite not getting the contract he wanted and having probably the best year of his career. Just like Lance Briggs, he wanted more money, didn’t get it, but went out and proved it on the court. Now who looks stupid not giving the money? If BG puts on a show in the playoffs, he’s getting his money.
I have always
been a Big Ben Gordon fan, you are preaching to that choir, and my personal choice always was BG over Deng, though I can and could see the reasons for Deng (more a fit any puzzle piece kind of player to Gordon’s more a specialist—though a damn awesome specialist).
But get real, Ben was pouting this year. I know once it mattered he played, and I think that too has something to do with his pouting. I would have liked to see him get a training camp in full play. Him being too hurt to play the whole preseason, then him coming in that one game and being his usual 23-30 pt self in 25 minutes with no issues running the court, only to see him sit again, and have the team mildly question it (Which they at least seemed to present that way in the press early this year) seems to me to make me think Ben wanted to prove he should start…..which he should.
It worked out well and he’s been great…..but I do think Ben was pouting a bit. If his toe hurt him that much I don’t think we wouldn’t have heard a whisper of it at all after game 3 this year….
4-9-09: Ok, so Vinny's not great, but maybe he has a future as an assistant coach.
Obviously, this takes a lot more parsing of the data than I actually want to do right now.
But could Thomas be averaging 2 more mpg simply because Del Negro had no other choice a number of times?
Two more minutes per game over 82 games is 160 total more minutes.
Can we find sixteen to twenty games throughout the year where Thomas averaged 10 more minutes per game because Gooden was injured, because of a trade, because Tim Thomas was injured, etc.? I might look later to check the hypothesis, but thinking of it like that, I wouldn’t be surprised to find it.
If that’s the case, then Thomas and Noah are only averaging 25 mpg for a coach that said he was going to come in and develop the young players.
And Rose, well, Del Negro’s stud superstar got hurt early and, similar to Gordon, Rose pretty much made it evident that he couldn’t be taken out.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Firing Vinny at this point is a pipe dream, this we can all agree on.
But that doesn’t make it any easier to swallow the really dumb moves made by this organization in hiring him, or the truly awful calls Vinny’s made as coach of this team.
It also does not help that he’s so easily second-guessed by amateur hoops fans on such fundamental issues. For example, we can second guess the move that Skiles made to leave Ben on the bench in the final seconds of the ‘05 season (by the way, if I remember correctly, Hinrich and Pargo together scored 11 points in the last minute and it took a buzzer-beating pull-up by Arenas to put the Bulls away, so Skiles wasn’t necessarily wrong there). So anyone can be second-guessed on a tactical move here or there.
But it seems Vinny is being second-guessed on big picture concepts. Like, “Vinny, have a defensive scheme.” “Vinny, does it really make sense to consistently, game after game, switch on the pick and roll so that your PG is guarding their center?” “Vinny, maybe you should use your time-outs toward the end of a close game.”
All of us wanted Vinny to be better than this yesterday. Not tomorrow. Unfortunately, it now looks like he’s going to be around tomorrow for us to see if he meets our expectations late, which I suppose is better than never.
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
joke's on us
http://www.blogabull.com/2009/4/12/831936/espn-flip-saunders-in-discussions
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 13, 2009 9:22 AM CDT up reply actions
Vinny is lookin ok lately because of the salmons/miller trade
You know he aint no doc rivers though. He maybe good at some aspects of the job like motivation and aspirations and all that. Where is his basketball IQ at though. They should be running a motion offense and alot more pressure defence to force a transition running game,with guys like noah and t-time at the 4 and 5 they have it made for that high tempo style. Vinny is poo. I think if they couldnt have got D’ Antoni or Avery, then why not try an experienced/winning college coach. The biggest part of this off season will be adding a new coach and re signing gordon (at the expense of deng if required).
I doubt Vinny could even land an NCAA head coaching position
Doc Rivers?
I recall Doc Rivers looking like a chump until Garnett and Allen came along. Then, all of a sudden he was a championship coach.
Doc did win coach of the year in Orlando
He was never that good, but not like overwhelmed and deer-in-headlights looking like VDN. Plus he’s been in the league a half-dozen years, care to wait for that in Vinny’s learning curve?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 16, 2009 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Agree - Vinny is here next year. The question remains is Vinny a keeper. The case for Vinny.
Bullhockey I totally agree on the switching on the pick and roll issue and other faux pauxs indicative of a niaive coach. The first half of the the year substitutions drove me crazy. No clear, defined defensive scheme drove me crazy. I could have killed him in the Miami game when he took Rose out with 7 seconds to go. Despite this I think the above posts minimize some of the problems he had before the trade as well as this team’s great finish.
Challenges before the trade: Hinrich out for an extended period of time and Grey was getting consistent minutes because we had no one else. Noah was terrible. TT was inconsistent and at times terrible. Hughes was starting and was awful.
Vinny’s strengths: Despite all his mistakes he has held the team together. The players seem to like him despite him screwing up royally. We are winning. Is Vinny the type of person who can improve enough to be an elite NBA coach? We do not have the answer. There is evidence that he has improved the second half. Combine his ability to have improved with his ability to hold the team together and he deserves a chance next year.
Well
On the first half of the year, the substitutions drove everyone crazy, but that was on Paxson to fix…..and he sure did fix. My criticisms of Vinny hit a boiling point when after the trade he was still making the bad timeouts late, the stupid supstitutions, the bad play calling at end of games where we were losing 6-8 pt leads with 1 minute and change left, and the OT record.
Early in the year it was understandable (to all besides the BaB faithful)……and of course now it’s easy to forget that Vinny f-ed up twice before this home stretch…..
Though I will say and have always said that Vinny has kept this team playing hard….not in the grind grind grind style of Skiles, but hard and together with some noticable enjoyment fromt he players. It helped us stomach those 5-6 game losing streaks mid season where we likely would have thrown our arms up as Skiles would have brought it Malik Allen to motivate….
Skiles’s team’s lost early, then were really solid the 2nd half…..often having a nice win streak…..Vinny’s never had that (I thought early on with Rose in toe we would have had a nice 7-8 game win streak)….but Vinny’s got our guys playing hard and playing together. I mean you can see Gordon (always seemingly a quiet keep to himself guy) out there running after the loose balls, he an Joakim seem to really enjoy playing together….I think Vinny’s only good job is that he built a team, a chemistry based team….
Now he just needs to learn to coach consistently……
I just wish he had a few more year’s experience. I’m worried if he doesn’t come around, that we’ll have wasted another TYrus year and more importantly a Rose year of development.
Bernie Bickerstaff (our main D coach) should have been fired 3 months ago though….
4-9-09: Ok, so Vinny's not great, but maybe he has a future as an assistant coach.
I agree our team is built on chemistry which isn't all bad.
A example of a very good X O coach who destroys chemistry is Stan Van Gundy. He has a better basketball mind now than VDN but he is losing his team. His screaming and yelling get old and the players tune him out. I was at the 12/31/2008 game where Orlando dominated the complete game. He never stopped screaming. I am serious – he didn’t stop. Late in the game Orlando was up like 27 points and someone lost the ball and he shot up from the bench and was furious. I do not want a screamer as our coach. This includes Avery Johnson. These guys wear on players and eventually they don’t hear what the coach is saying.
I'd take Van Gundy and this minor losing streak
and help bury Vinny’s body in the desert if needed.
Maybe Vinny doesn’t wear on players because he doesn’t say anything? Except when he told Luol not to show frustration on his face. Maybe he just lets luminaries like Lou Holtz do the (saliva-filled) screaming for him.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 13, 2009 6:32 PM CDT up reply actions
The Holtz motivational thing points to an insecure coach making a dumb move.
I stick to my Stan Van Gundy dislike. Screamers are unlikely to work long-term. I do think VDN has made progress but recognize and accept he started out terribly. Holtz was an example of how bad he was. But you cannot ignore results. 42 – 40 looks awful good to me.
looks average.
Van Gundy has the Magic as the top defense in the league. That looks awful good.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 14, 2009 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions
Damn straight.
Like I said, we should be the fourth seed.
Folks...um....I think there may be a case for VDN being a better head coach than Skiles
That is the true headline of this story.
With regard to VDN I think he is a good motivator and relates well to his players, but his X and O aptitude is zero.
At the start of the season Vinny was as bad at the X and Os as I've ever seen.
I do think he has improved and on a scale of 0 – 100 (0 the worst and 100 the best) I would rate him at 45. I didn’t think he is halfway there so put him at 45. Hopefully you can learn timeouts, substitution, etc. His personality seems to work for this team. Personality is hard to change.
it works with this team
Vinny doesn’t care to have any organization = players get do whatever they want
everyone wins. Like, half the time.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 13, 2009 6:34 PM CDT up reply actions
I guess my point is this Bulls team isn't 'working'
so hard to give credit to anyone for making it ‘work’.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 13, 2009 6:35 PM CDT up reply actions
this is nuts
Skiles is proving he’s a better coach right now in Milwaukee.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 13, 2009 6:32 PM CDT up reply actions
Skiles lost his team
You never hear that happening to great coaches.
At least Skiles lost the team by demanding them to work their asses off
Vinny almost lost this team by fining players for eating sandwiches. If it wasn’t for the complete loyalty of Derrick Rose (who by all reports has stuck by Vinny and done everything that’s asked of him), the Bulls would have tuned his dumbass months ago.
That Steve Nash is exactly the same as Kirk Hinrich, but worse.
by NBA Observer on Apr 8, 2009 12:23 PM CDT
by Ozzie Montana on Apr 14, 2009 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I never said Skiles was great
he’s competent. I long for such a status.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 14, 2009 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah but where has competancy gotten Skiles?
He’s on his third NBA team and he’ll be watching the playoffs this year. My point of comparing the two was based on the fact that Skiles was the last coach here besides Boylan and the fact that he’s an experienced, knowlegeable, X and Os head coach that had many issues “coaching” this team. And by comparison, as bad a Vinnie has been, I can see in one year some of the improvements in players that I didn’t see for 3 or 4 years under Skiles. I guess to also point out that there is more to coaching than running plays, grooming them and making them better counts. No matter how ugly or accidental Vinnie has done it. He’s done it.
done what?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 14, 2009 9:44 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
met the Bare Minimum standard
of a head ( rookie) coach,
…which was not to embarass himself and the organization too badly, too often.
...there's some folks that, if they don't know, you can't tell 'em.
Everyone keeps bringing up "rookie" coach.
You only do that if you think there’s some long-term great potential. You really think that?
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
then give me
another word used to describe a first-year coach ( on any level).
Keep it clean, though, in Vinny’s case :-)
...there's some folks that, if they don't know, you can't tell 'em.
We're in the Playoffs!
Rose is ROY!
Tyrus and Noah are not bust!
BG is actually deserving of a new contract based on his play!
Dude, it could’ve been a lot worse.
Hmm...
Should have been in the playoffs no matter what. Anyone but Boylan would have had them there.
Rose won ROY based a lot (but not all, of course) on his hot, hot start. You know, where Del Negro specifically didn’t coach.
Thomas and Noah were never going to be busts. They improved, but barely. Neither were horrible last year or the year before.
Gordon has been deserving.
I really don’t see how it could have been worse with any other new coach. Were there coaches that were being considered that you really think would have been bad?
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Thomas and Noah...
Had better years than they did with Skiles and Boylan.
Aaron Gray was our starting center for half the year because Noah came in unconditioned and VDN refused to give him entitlement minutes.
Rose was rookie of the year because of his hot start, and when Hinrich came back VDN kept him in as a starter (even when he started “struggling”). That was of course the right move, but a BAD coach wold have given Hinrich his spot back
I’d say it could have been A LOT worse from VDN. He isn’t a great coach by any means, but he clearly did not stand in the way of developing our young talent.
"Playoffs? Are we talking about playoffs? Really, I mean... Playoffs?"
by Khalid El-Amin on Apr 16, 2009 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions
rose was pretty consistent, though
his numbers in april were pretty close to his november numbers. he did drop off in the middle but he didn’t play “poorly” too often.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
Agreed...
Rose was definitely consistent numbers wise, but there was clearly a point in the season when he wasn’t attacking the rim like he did early on. Call it what you will, and personally I think it was all good because look at how his mid-range game has flourished. The point really is that VDN stuck with him in the starting lineup. Maybe not always down the stretch, but even that seems to have righted itself.
Again, I’m not saying VDN is a good coach, but he could have been worse IMO. I’ll be surprised/pissed if he coaches the Bulls beyond his current contract, but I’m done calling for his head on a platter… For the moment :)
"Playoffs? Are we talking about playoffs? Really, I mean... Playoffs?"
by Khalid El-Amin on Apr 16, 2009 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm saying worse THAN Del Negro.
We shouldn’t compare him to what any chump off the street would have done. We should compare him to the guys who would have actually been coaching the team.
Thomas was a “raw” 1st and 2nd year player w/ great potential and Noah was a rookie. You’re going to cite them being better as VDN’s coaching prowess? I don’t get that at all.
Maybe Del Negro could have been worse, but I don’t see how any other coach would have been. And that’s the point. Don’t compare him to your high school coach. Compare him to Rick Carlisle, Mike D’Antoni, Tom Thibodeau.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
And how many NBA games has Thibodeau won
as a NBA head coach? (zero) For all we know he may be a great assistant, but a poor head coach at the NBA level.
Compare him to Rick Carlisle, Mike D’Antoni, Tom Thibodeau.
Maybe we can?
by Granny Waiters on Apr 17, 2009 8:29 PM CDT up reply actions
Since when is the choice between Skiles and Del Negro?
Believe it or not, there are coaches out there who manage not to piss off their players while actually running plays at the same time.
Why resort to name calling?
-Dionysus2.0
because I wish to insult you personally
-your friendly BullsBlogger
Who's coaching?
How do you know if VDN is the one doing most of the coaching on the team. With the plethora of assistants, any one of them could have had their role increased while VDN’s role was decreased and as a result we have become successful.
Still, the head coach is the one who calls plays. The play calling has not been good even when we have been winning. Assistant coaches are the ones who often work on player development.
VDN seems alot like GWB to me
They question is: Who’s Cheney??
if there were really an evil mastermind behind this
wouldn’t the bulls have done better??
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
Depends if you're looking at success or profit
Joakim Noah: Better than you.
The real question is...
…who is going to replace VDN if you get rid of him? Who is this great coach out there that is just dying to come to the Bulls, who the Bulls want, and is going to get hired? Maybe you know his name, but I don’t.
I think that if you got rid of VDN this year, you’d end up with VDN2 next year. Just another low profile coach who isn’t quite ready for the big time. And VDN has been okay this year. So I say stick with him.
My guess is that you’ll essentially get something like what Doug Thonus said on his last podcast. You’ll have VDN around for 2 more years or so, and then when the team is really ready to compete the Bulls will Doug Collins him for the guy they think can take us all the way. In the meantime, just sit back and enjoy the young Bulls’ improvement.
you mean sit back and wait for the real coach to arrive?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 16, 2009 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions
Because there are multiple Phil Jackson's just sitting around waiting for the Bulls.
Is this the Bill Simmons’ Coaching Theory? You’re either an average coach or something “great” and since there are only 4-5 great coaches out there, all the rest are the same? Wha?
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
He's not saying that at all.
He’s saying there is no point getting rid of a coach unless you are going to upgrade the position. Who is the guy we’re going to hire that is an upgrade?
by BoxingHideout on Apr 19, 2009 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions
After yesterday's blunders by VDN...
This post should be detroyed…no reason for VDN saying aside from Bulls management being cheap.
But that's the most important reason!
no reason for VDN saying aside from Bulls management being cheap
Maybe we can?
by Granny Waiters on Apr 21, 2009 9:23 PM CDT up reply actions
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