Report Cards and Parent-Blogger Conferences: Pt. 2
by T-Boogie on Mar 30, 2009 7:21 PM CDT
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PrintPart 2 of my breakdown of the Bulls' season, combining my observations with a marginally amusing, teacher-oriented twist. Part 1 focused on the "star pupils" (the starters & Vinny), while this focuses on everyone else I can think of from this season. These assessments will be shorter than those in Part 1, mostly because these people don't matter as much (truth's a bitch). I'm combining the good and bad (if both do exist) in one section this time, because I'm tired and it's Monday. Let's do this.
Kirk Hinrich - D
GOOD/BAD:
Kirk is honestly trying, and his defense is still better than Derrick's. He occasionally has big offensive nights, but I would have to say he's regressed in terms of productivity (I don't accept his reserve role as a valid counterargument because a good player should perform regardless of when he plays). Hinrich is not a true point, he's not a natural decision-maker, and he tends to waste shot clock time just dribbling at the top of the arc for about 10 seconds per possession. This forces his comrades to rush the offense, and a lot of said comrades could really use that extra time to create space or find better looks.
CONFERENCE TIME:
"Kirk started off doing pretty well, but his attendance has been poor this year. He doesn't seem happy with his role, and he really isn't performing at the level we would like to see. In short, maybe he should transfer to another school where he would be happier, and we could use that space for someone who fits in with our system better."
Brad Miller - C+
GOOD/BAD:
Miller is the best offensive big we have, with a unique mix of passing and shooting skills for a guy with his size. However, his defense (as has been the case throughout his career) ranges from mediocre to rubbish, and so his role should remain the same. At times he rebounds well, but quicker, more agressive bigs (like Bosh and Brook Lopez) tend to outrebound him by a large margin. He also has the occasional Drew Gooden moment, in which he takes a long jumper when several better options are available.
CONFERENCE TIME:
"Brad has some pretty good skills, but he has other areas where he shows no signs of improvement since getting enrolled (or drafted). We like having him for the most part, but if he's not considering transferring after this school year, he may not be happy with his future at this school."
Luol Deng - D -
GOOD/BAD:
Two years ago I could not have imagined giving this guy a grade this low, but his good season back in the day seems more and more like a fluke (or an ingenious trick to get paid). His career since earning (with a loose interpretation of "earning") that big contract has been a series of injuries and lousy performances. Deng excelled when he slashed and attacked the rim while occasionally nailing open jumpers. He seems much slower in his slashing now (when he's healthy, of course), and he settles for jumpers too often, which are not his specialty. Quicker SF's (Pierce, Butler, etc.) also rape him on the other end. That contract's not looking like a wise investment at all (insert current economy joke here).
CONFERENCE TIME:
"When your boy came in, we expected great things, but he's proving that we may have expected too much. He's hardly in school, and he hogs all the school's resources. It turns out he's slower than most of his peers (SF's), and he just doesn't seem to work as hard as he did in the past. I'm not sure if he would be welcome in another school, but he better start looking. He may also want to consider dropping out if his attendance problems persist."
Aaron Gray - D
GOOD/BAD:
How he ever started a match is beyond me. Sasquatch has a nice touch for a big fella, and he occasionally rebounds well. Other than that, though, he's extremely mediocre. He's one of the slowest players I've seen in the league, and he doesn't have any athleticism worthy of note. His defense is okay sometimes, but that slowness makes it easy for others to catch him out of position. He, Eddy Curry, and Sean May should have a fat-off (although, in fairness, Gray dropped some pounds this year).
CONFERENCE TIME:
"If we keep our expectations low, Aaron won't disappoint us. And I mean low. Like, if he keeps his shoes tied and tries his very best for 5 minutes every week, he's welcome to keep his seat in class. You may want to pack some salads in his lunchbox, too. I'm just saying..."
Lindsey Hunter - C
GOOD/BAD:
He was brought in for cover after Hinrich got hurt, and he was expected to run the floor without killing the offense. In that, he succeeded. He's also seemed to help Rose out quite a bit in terms of mentoring, but he's really expendable now that Kirk's back.
CONFERENCE TIME:
"Lindsey's pretty old to still be in school, but he plays well with others, and he's tutored little Derrick well. He also doesn't cause problems, and we don't have to use much of our resources or pay much attention to him, so he's welcome in my class until a younger student with more potential comes along. Than he needs to graduate or drop out."
Tim Thomas - A+
GOOD/BAD:
That grade is sure to have raised the question "WTF?" Well, TF is that we got this guy in return for Larry Hughes, a guy that clearly had no future. Therefore, we got a fairly versatile guy who can score off the bench, handle the ball well for a big, and won't kill us on D, for free (although we had to take Fatty McFat Jerome James' contract with him). A+ for the trade, not necessarily the player.
CONFERENCE TIME:
"Timmy? Great kid! Maybe my expectations are low from the kid he replaced, but your kid's like Jesus f***in Christ in my class!"
Larry Hughes - F
GOOD/BAD:
As a Billiken, I really wanted to see him succeed, and I was happy to get him for Wallace, even if it was just to swap massive contracts. When I saw him play in college, he looked like a born scorer, and he actually played well in Washington. He still occasionally shows that scoring ability, but, more often than not, dude chucks up bricks like a construction worker having a temper tantrum. He's still good on D, but it's just not worth it when he goes 2 for 13 and makes children cry. I honestly wonder if takes so many bad shots just so he can hear the soothing sound of rubber hitting iron.
CONFERENCE TIME:
"Get your kid out of my school, and all the bricks he heaved in our school, too!"
Andres Nocioni - F
GOOD/BAD:
Too harsh? Methinks not. This guy can't be taught to sit, let alone play in part of a system. He's out of control the minute he steps on the court, and he shoots without a conscience. He's got scoring ability, and he's got a shooter's touch, but he's a selfish sack of crap, forcing crappy shots and committing stupid fouls day and night. He makes the same mistakes (trying to do too much, biting on head/shot fakes, running with the ball like a chicken with his head cut off) at age 29 that he's made from day 1.
CONFERENCE TIME:
"Tu hijo no juega bueno. He hasn't learned a damn thing since he came to this school, he doesn't share, and he doesn't listen. This foreign exchange program isn't working. Wait, Sacramento's school will take him? Dios mio! Gracias!"
Drew Gooden -C
GOOD/BAD:
Gooden had some games where he looked to be a promising low-post scoring threat, and he has double-double potential at all times. That being said, he's a terrible defender, and he settles for long, low percentage jumpers way too often. When he plays intelligently, he can rack up boards and points, but he tends to force it too much on offense, and his passing is abysmal. The chin pubes were amusing. All in all, I have no real regrets, especially considering he came over for Wallace.
CONFERENCE TIME:
"Meh, he came to us a C student, and he left a C student. Hooray for consistency."
Thabo Sefolosha - C
GOOD/BAD:
A great defender with size and length, I would have liked to see him stay. However, his shot is still below average, and his offensive skills are pretty limited. He can rebound pretty well for his size, but he can also play over thirty minutes without anyone noticing.
CONFERENCE TIME:
"Thabo's a good kid with some potential, but he never really fit in, so his transfer was probably for the best."
Jerome James - F (for "Fat," you see)
GOOD/BAD:
A bad contract for a bad contract. He may never play, and I'm okay with that.
CONFERENCE TIME:
"He can do whatever he wants, but I'm worried he might eat the crayons if I leave them in plain sight."
Linton Johnson, Anthony Roberson, Cedric Simmons, Demetris Nichols - N/A
These guys are really the same person, and they all won the "Viktor Khryapa Warmest Ass Award" at one point or another. Seriously though, these benchwarmers played hard on the rare occasions that they received playing time, and they never complained about their roles, so I can't fail them and still be able to sleep at night.
CONFERENCE TIME:
"Who is your kid? Are you sure he's in this class?"
There you have it, that's everyone I can remember. Are these grades accurate, or am I full of crap? Did I forget anyone? What grades would you have given? Questions and comments are always welcome (as long as you raise your hand).
FanPosts are user-created posts from the BlogABull community, and are to be treated as the opinions and views of that particular user, not that of the blogger or blog community as a whole.
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No, I meant it.
The grade definitely might be exaggerated, but it was clear VDN was never going to play Hughes again, so getting anything productive in return sounds good to me. The A+ is more for the transfer than the actual player.
I think you have to give Deng an incomplete
He was on his way to earning an F early on, but he had that stretch of good play pre-injury that started to make up some of the missed work. He shouldn’t get credit for work he hasn’t done, but it would be nice to see him on a healthy leg before passing judgment.
Man-slave, bring me my PB&J!
I think you're way off on Kirk
Big surprise, right?
I think you do have to consider the role that the team is asking him to play – he’s a smaller part of the offense with Derrick, John, and Tyrus’s increased shots, plus of course Ben. He’s having his second best shooting season of his career, best shooting season from 3, and his assists are not significantly down considering he’s not playing anywhere close to the minutes at PG. His points per game are down because he’s playing fewer minutes and taking fewer shots per minute. It would be a huge problem for the team if he weren’t willing to take on this more limited role offensively and insisted on fighting for shots with the other guys. You say you don’t accept the reserve role as an excuse because guys need to perform when they do play – but you then ignore the fact that he is performing when he plays.
And I think he’s accepted the role fine. The only thing he has said publicly is that it is a challenge, and meanwhile he’s continued to be a vocal on-the-court leader and has gone out of his way to help the guy taking his job.
Even if you judge his production based on a starter’s role, I think he’s easily been average, which is a C, not a D. But that’s sort of like saying he did good on all the work you gave him (eg, role the team gave him), but you think he should have somehow gone out and found more work to do independently. Or asking that he score as well on an exam while only giving him 2/3 the time to take it as the other kids.
Man-slave, bring me my PB&J!
Some valid arguments,
but I wouldn’t go as high as a C (C – maybe). True, he’s accepted the role like a professional and continued to lead, but he’s got a big contract that his play has not fully justified, and his minutes are only down about 5 minutes per game from last year. The drop in minutes is significant, but that still puts him on pace for numbers like last year’s, which failed to impress. His shot selection is better, which boosted the FG% and 3PT%, but he can’t create his own shot all that well (like BG and other SG’s can), and his passes are often lazy, telegraphed, and ill-advised (which is not good for a PG). If he keeps playing like he has of late (which has been decent) and the Bulls win 5 of the last 7 with Hinrich contributing, I think he could earn the C, but, up to this point, I’ve been fairly disappointed.
I disagree with you here.
Deng’s contract is fully on him. He is the starter and making 70 mil and needs to play up to it. I do think however that when he gets healthy, he will be much better. But Hinrich is being berated mostly because of his contract and I think that is not entirely fair. 1.7. In other words, there was a 98.3 chance that Kirk was our starting PG this year with Gordon, Deng, Gooden and Gray. How different would most people be treating him if this were the case. BG probably would have started from the beginning due to his familiarity with Kirk and Deng probably would have played much better, since the offense would not have changed so much. Kirk played on Team USA. He is a clear starter in this league. Maybe not top 15 PG, but a starter for certain. But instead, we became one of the luckiest teams ever and hit the jackpot and what was the prize? A superstar PG. Good for us, bad for Kirk. TJ Ford came off the bench in Toronto playing behind Calderon. Ramon Sessions came off the bench behind Luke Ridenour.
What we need to do is trade him. He has value. But Paxdorf is to in love with him. If they really loved him, they would set him free. I think part of the problem from managements perspective is direction. I think they are wrestling with whether they want to trade Kirk for a back-up SF and PG ( a la Outlaw and Sergio from Portland) or whether to just trade him for expirings so they can go after BG. I think that if they knew they could get BG, they would dump Hinrich, but they are afraid to dump Kirk and then not land BG. So instead of choosing a path and going for it strong (a la Walsh and the Knicks) they are tentative. Usually when someone can’t make up their mind, it is eventually made for them and I believe that is what will happen here as well. Ben will be nervous this summer because he will be unsure if he is really going to get what he wants which is money and play time. So he will walk because Paxdorf doesn’t do anything to make him feel welcome. They think, “look, we made you a good offer. Look, just tell us you’ll sign and we’ll work something out with the back court.” And Ben thinks, “I’m better than Kirk, but they won’t trade him to keep me? And what about all this talk about Salmons playing the 2. That’s my spot! This is BS, I’m outta here.”
Tyger – please note: The quotes above are not real and have no articles to back them up. It’s just my perception and conjecture. Speaking of my opinion, I think Ben is a thinker not a talker. He holds things in. He doesn’t grab K.C. after practice and exclaim that he is being disrespected. But I believe he thinks it. And by that, I mean every practice, every game and every off day as well. He’s the quiet type that goes out and works hard. He excels (in at least one area) and has even garnered national awards (6th man award, eastern conference player of the week, etc.). He’s the teams leading scorer, since he got here. He stays late and comes early to practice to make sure he is doing his job (which in his mind is scoring). And every shot he takes after practice is over he’s thinking, “what do I have to do to get a contract around here? (swish) I work hard, I score more than anybody else, I never complain, (swish) even when they make me come off the bench which is a joke. (swish) Who’s gonna score? (swish) Noah? (swish) TT and his jump shots? And Deng hasn’t done anything. (swish) Kirk is our backup. (swish) And both of them have had injuries. But I just keep playing whether I’m hurt or not. (swish) This is ridiculous. There’s no way I should be making less than them!” (swish)
I’m not saying this is necessarily what I think about the contract situation, just what Ben thinks. And again, I have no proof or back up to support this, just my thoughts. But if this is what he is thinking, I believe we could get him back on the team, but I think we would need to move Kirk first and tell him that we are doing it because we want him. He just needs some acknowledgment. “We want YOU.” Not just this political run around mumbo jumbo that Paxson keeps putting out there about how the organization knows what Ben has to offer and that they value his contributions. Wait, this response was about Kirk right? Trade him to a team where he can play and we can move forward. I’m with wjb1492. He has done pretty much all we have asked him to do. So waht if he’s not Ginobili off the bench, he’s Kirk. A solid starting PG for another team, so let’s get on with it and send him for his sake and ours.
amen
i was very curious to see how he would be coming off the bench for a 20 year old. but he has taken that role with real professionalism. he’s never complained and is a good guy for derrick to learn from. plus he is the captain of the team and when derrick takes that role next year he’ll get a lot from what kirk has done. if derrick is going to improve his defense then having kirk around for that will be a plus also. and we have to remember that the bulls gave him that contract before we had rose. the bulls gave it to him and he took it. its not he was gonna say “wow, thats a lot of money i cant take all that, please take some back.”
The only monster here is the gambling monster that has enslaved your mother! I call him Gamblor, and it's time to snatch your mother from his neon claws!!
Kirk held out on that contract
until the last second possible if I remember right. We were waiting until just before the game started to hear how the contract went down. He didn’t accept the first thing they threw on the table. He waited as long as he could and got them to give him more money. Don’t make it out as if he was farm boy who came across some cash and a pat on the head for being a swell guy. And now the big bad Bulls are upset he isn’t living up to it or whatnot and it was their fault in the first place for giving him the money. His contract dictates he needs to be a starting PG. And that will have to be on another team. Until then his contract is a clog in our future plans and there will be some frustration from people looking at the big picture.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
oh i didnt know that
i know he signed right before the first game of the season. but i didnt know he held out. i thought it was just a matter of they just decided to sign him at that moment. well disregrad that part of what i said, but i still think everything else applies
The only monster here is the gambling monster that has enslaved your mother! I call him Gamblor, and it's time to snatch your mother from his neon claws!!
well that was the deadline
and i remember reading that the negotiations didn’t seem to be going that well but he ended up signing at the last minute.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
yea i just looked it up
it said that he and his agent were looking for tony parker kind of money. and that paxon got him to take hometown discount… wat the hell does that mean. and that his contract was made in a way that will help sign noce, BG, and deng. but i guess pax forgot about that plan when he gave noce the extension.
but that first game blowout aganist miami was awesome.
The only monster here is the gambling monster that has enslaved your mother! I call him Gamblor, and it's time to snatch your mother from his neon claws!!
at the time
i think everyone (at least a majority) of the league saw kirk as a future all star. I remember a friend of mine once were talking about this in the summer of that year and he asked me if kirk had been an all star yet, and i said no, and he responded well i think he will be this year. He was making strides at the time, team usa, then that awesome job of defending wade, then the year he signed his contract (but not when his contract began) he made one of the defensive teams while playing his most efficient basketball. It didnt seem he was overpaid, i dont remember anyone complaining about his pay at the time at all.
Yea he waited out for quite a while, and ended up taking a front loaded contract which to my understanding most players dont really like at any rate, but that is i think what a player is supposed to do isnt it. You aim high, see if you can get what you want, and eventually work your way down. Time pretty much ran out for kirk and he settled with his contract, i think thats the business aspect of being a basketball player, and again at the time no one complained about the money (unlike noch’s deal….)
Dengs contract wasnt so bad either, until we found out he played like a role player. Kirks contract is a starters contract, and it was fair. He was older, but his contract is frontloaded, as he got older, his contract got smaller, that also seemed fair. Like unrealcity said, the bulls lucked out and got d.rose, and thats when hinrichs contract really got bad.
the noch contract is what really screwed deng and gordon, and then now we all wish deng and gordon could have switched situations….i guess thems the breaks…
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
by piccolomair on Mar 31, 2009 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions
i can't find it now
but when i was looking for something else earlier i found something saying hinrich’s estimated market value was 8 million… certainly a better estimate than tony parker and probably more than fair compared to what he ended up getting. :P
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
Deng, Noc, and Hinrich
were all signed above market value at the time. Deng didn’t even really have offers and Noc didn’t have serious offers. Deng did his ultimatum about getting signed before he went overseas last summer and Jerry complied. Can’t blame the players for winning their negotiations, but when the management complains about not having enough money for BG I kind of roll my eyes. They signed three guys over market value. That isn’t smart on their part. At least Kirk was a “core” guy coming off a good year so you could argue you’d pay a little more for that. Deng was coming off a bad year and Noc was…well…what he was. Gritty and over loved by the org.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
i'm just saying what i read
but if his market value was really 8, he shouldn’t have signed for 9.5. even trying to make the guy happy.
deng didn’t get much of a raise from his previous offer (57.5/5 compared to 71/6), so whatever, i mean can’t fault him, plus i’d say deng pretty much went for market value it seemed like a bunch of guys got that rate of 11 mill or so. since everyone loves to make the comparison, iguodala got just more than he did by about the margin i would have expected.
and yeah… nocioni… no excuse for that one.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
Hey if a teams gonna overpay you
do you say no. Also i think an agent plays into this too. “Hey kirk, its me your agent, i think i can get you tony parker money…haha…how does that sound?”
“Man thats awesome can you do that?”
“sure this is what you do….”
and then at the end the bulls settle on an offer and kirk gets higher than market value although not tony parker money….
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
haha, no, of course he wouldn't say no
i’m blaming that much on the org. :)
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
yea i felt the same way u did
The only monster here is the gambling monster that has enslaved your mother! I call him Gamblor, and it's time to snatch your mother from his neon claws!!
He did sign just before the deadline
But it was the summer he was eligible for an extension, which I do think makes it different. He wasn’t even to QO point – he was still under contract with the Bulls and would have been a RFA the following season had he not signed.
And I don’t remember anything about there being more money added, honestly. Pax’s position in that extension summer has always been to make what he considers a fair offer but more fair to the org in exchange for the early security. So I guess you can say he “held out” – but it wasn’t a Luol/Ben holdout by any means.
And I get the whole contract issue with Kirk playing for the Bulls – he’s making a heck of a lot, and he’d have more value on a team that needs him as a starting PG. My point with the grading thing, though, is that I don’t think his on-court production merits a D. I’d grade him a C among starting PGs in the league how he’s playing this season, which is to say average – but that’s with the disadvantage of playing at least half his time at SG and with playing fewer minutes. But I also think he deserves additional acknowledgment that he’s performing very well in the role the team has asked him to play. I think most people would say that they don’t want a bigger role for Kirk on the team as presently constructed (ie, it would take minutes from Derrick or Ben), including Pax, and if he’s not being allowed to earn a bigger role on merit (ie, defense) then is it fair to penalize him.
I suppose it comes down to this – when grading the players, do we grade them on their performance based on some general standard for the role the team asks them to play (ie, what is in their control) or are we really grading management’s decision not to trade him (ie, out of his control).
Man-slave, bring me my PB&J!
Just saw you posted something very similar below, Cranscape
Always the issue in threads for me – do I respond to something as I’m reading, or do I read the whole thread to see if it’s already been said.
Man-slave, bring me my PB&J!
Hinrich had a better year following his extension anyway.
(having not read through your entire comment)
Had they waited until his RFA the following year, he might have received more.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Kirk gets the same grade as VDN?
Nobody in the NBA is as bad as Vinny del Negro.
Given the role he’s been asked to play (PG? SG? SF????), I’d say he’s done a respectable job. His shooting percentages are up from last year, his defense has returned to an acceptable level, and for the most part, he’s kept his mouth shut about coming off of the bench.
What Kirk needs more than any grade is a change of scenery. Somewhere in Portland or Minnesota would seem to be ideal for him. (Portland obviously much moreso than Minnesota)
by darksmokepuncher on Mar 31, 2009 8:31 AM CDT reply actions
I have to disagree on Kirk.
He hasn’t been terrible on the court. He has been normal Kirk love it or hate it. The difference this year is that he is redundant on our team because of Rose and his contract puts a wrench in a lot of the things our team wants to do. And that is management’s fault for not trying to move him earlier. The insistence earlier on in the year that he or Thabo or Hughes would be better at starting SG than BG caused a lot of conflict. He has been shuffled around in the team’s hierarchy all season and it hasn’t done anyone any favors. He is a starting PG on another team. We should be able to get something good in return for him. His moveability is much better than Deng’s at this point. This should have been done earlier and who knows if it will ever get done.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
yea aside from kirks contract
the fact that he is like biggest roadblock on the supposed success story of ben gordon doesnt help either, especially with all the things that took place with gordon, management somehow could blame it all on hinrich. Cant move hinrich cuz unsure if gordon will stay, cant sign gordon cuz hinrichs paid more, cant start gordon cuz hinrich is a better defender and is profesional, then theres three guard lineups which always include hinrich, etc….for everything that blogabulll bitches about, somehow management always seems to include hinrich into the mix, so despite any good hinrich does, being part of the bad moments of this bulls teams just gives him alot of bad rep. I mean, there was also the free throw thing when the crowd didnt get thier big mac. Its unfair to hinrich in that sense, alot of it is management setting up situations where hinrich gets thrown under the bus.
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
by piccolomair on Mar 31, 2009 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't think you can really say management threw him under the bus
They created a situation where a lot of fans feel Kirk is the golden boy beloved by management above all others, so people get pissy when they feel that supposed favoritism is hurting their player. I think there is good statistical evidence that Kirk is helping the team a lot, but I also get why people who love Ben feel like he is undervalued.
IMO, these are Kirk’s problems – he’s all around solid without being great at anything on the offensive side (although he has been among the top 3-point shooter this year!), so there’s always a good argument that someone else should be playing over Kirk. On top of that, he doesn’t have a flashy game. Offense is often valued over defense in rating individual performances, which is understandable – it’s easy to look at BGs points for the day and say the Bulls would have lost without those points, and it’s harder to try to gauge how many points someone like Kirk prevented the other team from scoring. Plus, with the handcheck rules, we aren’t very likely to see many “shutdown” performances.
So Kirk ends up being “meh” in a lot of people’s eyes, and they don’t get why the org would pay so much money for “meh.”
Man-slave, bring me my PB&J!
Coming Soon: The Kirk Hinrich Debate Forum
This is getting interesting. I’m reading some good comments that present valid, persuasive arguments, and I’m going to create a post tonight that gives Kirk a new grade along with a more in-depth analysis. My guess is all of you will still disagree with the new grade, but that’s what makes a debate worth having. One guy presents his case with his evidence, and another person can take the same and/or different evidence to tell that guy he’s full of it. Great stuff. Keep an eye out for the new post, and be prepared to battle my judgment again.
dont go crazy and give him an A now
a b+ would suffice ;-)
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
by piccolomair on Mar 31, 2009 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions
I think overall you did grade tougher than I would have on everybody
Except Tim Thomas. ;) To each grader his own definition of average, right?
Man-slave, bring me my PB&J!
How about you factor
in his new grade all that Derrick has said Kirk has helped him with. He’s openly thanked him in two published articles for being a great help this season. There is more than what you see on the floor.
Kirk
LOL, JK.
He was one of my favorate players, but times have changed and he just doesn’t fit in with this Bulls team.
Will you still post here when Kirk is gone?
He... is.... never... leaving.
Gordon and Deng will be gone first.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Booooooo.
Stats with contextual observations, good. Stats with no context, bad. Anecdotal observations unsupported by data, the worst.
by fundamentallysound on Mar 31, 2009 5:17 PM CDT up reply actions
It is good form to speak well
of the PG you knocked off the top spot. They probably keep asking him about it. What else is he going to say? He has said nice stuff about Hunter and Hunter costs less. Hire Kirk as a coach if that is what you want. As a player he still costs too much as a back up.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
Exactly.
Sue acts like Derrick is some jerk and would actually air his grievances about Hinrich if he had any.
I remember Rose praising Del Negro at least once, maybe more. So, A) he lies and says nice things not to hurt feelings, B) he’s so new that anyone saying anything pretty much helps him, C) he’s an athlete who isn’t good with the media and speaks in cliches to get through interviews or D) some combination of the above.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
I'm acting like
Derrick is a jerk? Buddy you couldn’t be more wrong. I have read several articles that Derrick and Kirk get along quite well so it makes sense that he would thank him for all his help. The organization has also said how much Kirk has helped Derrick. I’ve seen plenty of interviews with Derrick and he pretty much speaks his mind.
He thanked him in
his letter to the fans on Bulls.com. There were no questions asked…..it was a letter.
Oh, and how did nobody notice my 10,000 spelling errors?
I’ll leave em there though so you can throw in some extra venom for the next post. Damn proofreading.
Hopefully the Bulls
try to trade for Bosh. Maybe Toronto would like the idea of having Deng play with Pops (GB teamate) and a sign and trade for Ben Gordon (soon to be GB teamate). I don’t know how that would work dollar wise but that would get Toronto 2 good players (Deng may be better in their "system") for the next five years.
This post and the first of its kind falls back on the same sort of lazy analysis and
non-sense that we see out of mainstream news media. It’s conventional wisdom without any analysis to actually see if its valid. It’s not valid. Giving Brad Miller a C+? Really?
He’s made everyone on the team better when he’s out there. He’s not “rubbish” on defense, he actually can handle centers with size, which is an area which Joakim struggles with and he can hit the long set shot on pick and pops that Joakim is unable to hit.
He brings a lot to the table, and takes very little off of it. Giving Tim Thomas an A+ just makes this whole thing a laughable exercise.
Stats with contextual observations, good. Stats with no context, bad. Anecdotal observations unsupported by data, the worst.
by fundamentallysound on Mar 31, 2009 2:41 PM CDT reply actions
I suppose this is where I'm supposed to defend my post,
but I think you fail to see the purpose here. I present some speculation on each player, and I offer my opinion. The grades are basically there as points for discussion, not as statistics of any true sort. As for Miller, yea, he’s been a good addition, but, in my opinion (which doesn’t necessarily need concrete support, just calling it how I see it), Noah’s a bit better, and the grade discrepancy reflects that. As for the Timmy T grade, I admitted that’s an exaggeration and not a reflection on the player’s production, but rather a reflection of the front office getting something useful for nothing. But hey, I’m glad you’re reading the post in the first place, disdain is better than apathy.
Noah is better, we're in agreement there. I just fail to see how Noah's a B- when he's a top 5 center in the league
by WinShares and ranks extremely highly by a number of other metrics, and Brad Miller has consistently been one of the better passing big men in all of basketball, and has brought that with him how he gets a C+.
Stats with contextual observations, good. Stats with no context, bad. Anecdotal observations unsupported by data, the worst.
by fundamentallysound on Mar 31, 2009 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions
Valid argument on B-Mill's behalf,
I agree he’s been filling his role well. Noah’s not a top 5 center yet, that just makes no sense. In no particular order and off the top of my head, Howard, Yao, Duncan (more a PF, but whatever), Camby, Al Jefferson (when healthy), Kaman (when healthy), Perkins, David Lee, Nene, Biedrins (when healthy), and Bogut (when healthy) are all better than Noah in my opinion, and I think many would agree with me on most of those names.
Kaman is terrible. People think he's good but he's garbage.
David Lee is a PF, no one would ever call him a 5. Al Jefferson is a 4 who was playing at the 5 slot because Kevin McHale had a mancrush on Kevin Love and drafted him. Biedrins is like a slightly better version of Noah. Camby’s just not that good anymore. Bogut might be better than Noah when healthy, but he hasn’t been healthy all year. Duncan isn’t a center.
Stats with contextual observations, good. Stats with no context, bad. Anecdotal observations unsupported by data, the worst.
by fundamentallysound on Mar 31, 2009 5:16 PM CDT up reply actions
also, Perkins is barely above average, let alone better than Noah
he just benefits from playing with great, great teammates. He’s more of a defensive specialist than anything, and his defense isn’t even that good.
Nene is better than Noah, you’re right there.
Another thing about David Lee, even if you qualify him as a Center, he’s not better than Noah, because he doesn’t play a lick of defense and never has.
So looking at the players that are actually centers you’ve got: Howard, Yao, Kaman, Perkins, Nene, Biedrins, Camby and Bogut. Of those, Noah is better than Kaman (he absolutely sucks, he’s had exactly one semi-good year and even that wasn’t very good, plus he’s always hurt). Noah’s better than Perkins (reasons stated above). The only players left that are actually centers that are actually better than Noah are: Howard, Yao, Nene, Camby and Biedrins. Guess how many players that is… that’s right, it’s 5. If you wanna come up with some other names of actual centers that are better than him, besides those 5 – which would make him a top 6 center in the league – I’d be glad to hear them, but I suspect they aren’t as good as Noah.
Stats with contextual observations, good. Stats with no context, bad. Anecdotal observations unsupported by data, the worst.
by fundamentallysound on Mar 31, 2009 5:29 PM CDT up reply actions
I'll throw one out myself: I don't know how I just left him out, I guess because I was looking
at your off-the-top of your head list.
Shaq is better, but he’s on the verge of being retired, and even if you add Shaq’s name to the list Noah’s still in the top 7 or 8 centers in the league and is the youngest of the bunch. That’s not something that I would give a B-, but again, call me crazy.
Stats with contextual observations, good. Stats with no context, bad. Anecdotal observations unsupported by data, the worst.
by fundamentallysound on Mar 31, 2009 5:50 PM CDT up reply actions
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