Vinny's 4th quarter explained

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 30, 2009 8:10 AM CDT

Neither John Salmons nor Joakim Noah played the entire 4th quarter or overtime in Sunday's loss to the Raptors.

KC with the story (though not in his game story which is focused on Rose missing a layup that would not have automatically won the game since there were 8 seconds left...):

Salmons had played 39 or more minutes in seven straight games but sat the entire fourth and overtime and played just 30:36 because a sore groin he's been battling never loosened.

Del Negro also defended his decision to play Joakim Noah just 19 seconds after the third quarter despite Noah scoring 16 points.

"We scored 42 in the fourth, so we had a nice rhythm," Del Negro said. "I'm not going to break the rhythm to get guys minutes."

Well, a new period can break the rhythm too, but it's age-old coach-y dumbness that says you have to lose with the guys who brought you there.

I have no doubt Vinny will find ways, explainable (if you buy the rhythm explanation in the first place. Obviously having Salmons injured causes problems...but how about going big - or just not 'going Hinrich' - for once?) or not, to play Miller and Hinrich down the stretch in the playoffs. And since they're going to lose playoff games anyway, it'll tick me off.

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Fire Vinny.

Stats with contextual observations, good. Stats with no context, bad. Anecdotal observations unsupported by data, the worst.

by fundamentallysound on Mar 30, 2009 8:24 AM CDT reply actions 5 recs

Dear GOD!! I was literally getting ready to create a post about this very thing! LOL

I think last night’s game showed something that has been the case all season…
The Bulls have won in spite of VDN. I really want to tip my hat to the Bulls players for this season. Most of these guys have been ridiculed by fans and the media in this town for the longest. Noah coming in out of shape, Tyrus being immature, Gordon being labeled as selfish and stupid for not taking that deal, Hinrich for not playing up to his contract. And though a lot of this criticism is deserved, these guys have had to pull it together and play with a terrible coach and an organization with no plan at all.Throw in poor Rose who’s had to come in as a 20 yr old rookie and play through this ineptness and you start to realize how much of a miracle this season has been. VDN literally lost that game yesterday. LITERALLY!! From playing Tim Thomas and Linton Johnson together to not playing BG most of the third, to not playing Noah most of the second half while he’s on the way to having a career game, to subbing Rose and Noah in the middle of a rally. What bugs me in not only how bad he is but he then has the nerve to get up in post game interviews and spew comments like the one above. The nerve of this guy. Would the media int his town accept this from a Bears or White Sox head coach? We don’t accept this type of ineptness from coaches that have been to the Championship game let alone a rookie head coach.

by Dils on Mar 30, 2009 8:36 AM CDT reply actions

atleast he had an excuse for salmons

but if he wanted to go with the guys who were in “rhythm”, why did he bring noah back in to guard bosh on the last play? i would think that not playing an entire half would take noah out of his “rhythm” . why would u expect him to take on bosh right away? i get having kirk out there earlier in the 4th because he was doing a better job on calderon than rose. but to keep that going while marion was punishing rose in the post in just stupid. rose wastes a lot of energy trying to keep marion from getting the ball anf defending him once he got the ball. then u expect him to run the floor and score for u also? these guys had what like 6 games in 9 days… my guess is the 20 year old rookie might get fatigued once in a while too.

The only monster here is the gambling monster that has enslaved your mother! I call him Gamblor, and it's time to snatch your mother from his neon claws!!

by Yibs on Mar 30, 2009 9:13 AM CDT reply actions

This:

if he wanted to go with the guys who were in "rhythm", why did he bring noah back in to guard bosh on the last play? i would think that not playing an entire half would take noah out of his "rhythm" . why would u expect him to take on bosh right away?

I was literally laughing. Comically stupid.

http://thegettinplace.blogspot.com/

by TheTruth11 on Mar 30, 2009 5:54 PM CDT up reply actions

Well because he gassed Miller?

But I don’t buy it.

Pool and a pond... Pond be good for you.

by SoulEater7 on Mar 30, 2009 7:34 PM CDT up reply actions

Fire Vinny!

Dils hit in on the head. The Bulls are winning despite Vinny Del Coacho! Its pretty sad because we have alot of good players. To bad about John being hurt we really couldve used him. See what happens when 1 guy gets hurt and that forces Vinny to coach = loss. If we run KH and BM alot in the playoffs ill be pissed. I mean i want to win but not at the expense of our young guns not getting as much playoff burn as they can handle. All around yesterdays game was ok, fun to watch, but watching Vinny roll out some of these bums off the bench blows my mind every game. I guess all we can hope for at this point is for Vinny to coach his way out of a job. I still cant believe D Rose bricked that layup. I almost threw up when I saw that.

by Bulls4Ever on Mar 30, 2009 9:21 AM CDT reply actions

I recall Noah attempting to defend Bosh late in OT

Funny, it seemed that Vinny was briefly switching Noah-Miller on plays like a real coach might attempt “offense-defense” switches…but he was doing it WRONG. Putting in Noah for defense on a critical possession when veteran Miller is probably better at containing Bosh when it matters (late in OT).

Who cares if Miller has 5 fouls? Noah was cold going in and could not box on Bosh when it mattered.

(note: i only saw the end of regulation (yay Gordon!) and OT)

by KentuckyBullsFan on Mar 30, 2009 9:48 AM CDT reply actions

Noah was playing fine.

He got put into the game late in OT and the very next play they fed Bosh the ball and he got out of Noah’s sight. Yes, that sucks, but he was doing just fine earlier in the game when he wasn’t froze out on the bench for over a quarter.

Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.

by cranscape on Mar 30, 2009 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions

"veteran Miller is probably better at containing Bosh when it matters "

does not compute.

USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 30, 2009 10:01 AM CDT up reply actions

Noah played Bosh as well as possible on that play

Impressive considering how cold he was. Miller was a sieve on defense, and the Raptors won because they owned the offensive glass, which got their shooters even more open looks.

Confusion breeds success. If they don't know each other, opponents can't have strategy. GENIUS.

by Ozzie Montana on Mar 30, 2009 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions

You must have forgot when Noah blocked Bosh a month or so ago in a umm... spot when it mattered.

Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!

by tyger1147 on Mar 30, 2009 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions

He put Noah in way too late.

Pool and a pond... Pond be good for you.

by SoulEater7 on Mar 30, 2009 9:50 AM CDT reply actions

I was screaming at the television for an explanation of the horrible lineups in the fourth and in OT

Salmons was spectacular on Saturday. I was at the game and he is Mr Clutch. He made two critical threes with Indiana players all over him. I hope this groan issue is real because not having him out there at the end of the game cost us the game.

by chgobr on Mar 30, 2009 9:52 AM CDT reply actions

i hope the "groan issue" is NOT real, but Vinny gets fired

by KentuckyBullsFan on Mar 30, 2009 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions

Thanks - I guess I'm goaning and lost sight of the groin!

by chgobr on Mar 30, 2009 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions

P.S. - At the game Saturday he took out Gordon in the 4th when BG was hot.

I was sitting right near BG when he was pulled and he was pissed. There was no doubt BG thought pulling him was rediculous. I think Tim Thomas came in and we quickly lost 6 points and Vinny put Gordon back in. Everyone around me was furious that Gordon was taken out at that point. One of the reasons Salmons was able to get his shot off at the end of the game was Gordon being on the floor. Yesterday’s game is on VDN. Add this to the 3-5 other games he lost for us.

by chgobr on Mar 30, 2009 9:58 AM CDT up reply actions

Boy I think 3-5 games he lost is a little generous;)

I’m going to give Pax credit for something here. He’s actually listened to us this year. Think about it. He traded Gooden, Hughes, and Noc and turned that into Salmons and Miller. He also embarassed VDN in the media about benching Rose in the 4th of games. I think Pax has a good radar in some cases and he sees what we see when it comes to VDN. If he’s allowed, I think VDN will be gone after this season.

by Dils on Mar 30, 2009 10:02 AM CDT up reply actions

What happened with our bigs' defense yesterday?

I missed the game, but Bargnani and Bosh combine for 59 points, 21 boards on efficient shooting? These are numbers from November revisited…

by YaoPau on Mar 30, 2009 10:02 AM CDT reply actions

Our Bigs didn't play much.

Noah played 19 mins in the game. TT did have like 4 blocks but Bargani moslty stayed on the outside shooting 3s and he was on fire.

by Dils on Mar 30, 2009 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions

Bargani

gave the Bulls fits and kept Tyrus outside having to closeout threes.

Pool and a pond... Pond be good for you.

by SoulEater7 on Mar 30, 2009 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions

also, early in the game

Tyrus was on Marion with Bargs shooting over Salmons.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 30, 2009 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions

yeah

Brad Miller’s shooting woes didn’t help either.

Off subject Vinny kept Linton Johnson and Tim Thomas in way too long in the second quarter.

Pool and a pond... Pond be good for you.

by SoulEater7 on Mar 30, 2009 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions

It was Johnson/Thomas/Miller

for 4 excruciating minutes spanning the 1st/2nd quarter.

http://popcornmachine.net/cgi-bin/gameflow.cgi?date=20090329&game=CHITOR

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 30, 2009 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions

yeah that can't happen.

4 total minutes of bad.

Pool and a pond... Pond be good for you.

by SoulEater7 on Mar 30, 2009 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions

They didn't really deserve a win yesterday anyway

Del Negro has tried to offset the workload by canceling practices or staging just walk-throughs on days off.

Why practice when you can … not practice? Who needs plays anyway? Especially coming off timeouts – that’s sooo 1999!

::sigs::

We’re stuck w/ this bumbling fool aren’t we?

"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."

by Ugh It Live! on Mar 30, 2009 10:23 AM CDT reply actions

Walk-throughs?

I can understand they don’t wanna burnout with their playoff run but they have so many things to shore up.

1. Defense. (help side anyone?)
2. End game plays.
3. Plays out of timeouts.

I wish someone had a stat of the success rate of the Bulls scoring out of timeouts. Every time Vinny calls one I get mad. With Skiles at least you knew you’d get a well designed play to score.

Pool and a pond... Pond be good for you.

by SoulEater7 on Mar 30, 2009 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions

Maybe Del Negro recognizes he can't teach those things anyway.

Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!

by tyger1147 on Mar 30, 2009 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions

And that's a valid excuse an NBA coach is allowed to use?

Pax could probably draw up better plays. Even lardass Stacey King does via his telestrater…

"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."

by Ugh It Live! on Mar 30, 2009 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions

I'd take King over VDN

by patagonia on Mar 30, 2009 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions

King had coaching experience. Hire him!

Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.

by cranscape on Mar 30, 2009 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions

Some people tend to be sarcastic.

Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!

by tyger1147 on Mar 30, 2009 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions

I bet 10% success rate of scoring after a timeout

I’ve noticed how piss-poor things get after a timeout.

"Remember, I'm Italian".

by BCs71 on Mar 31, 2009 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions

::sighs::

Hey – gimme a break it’s Monday.

"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."

by Ugh It Live! on Mar 30, 2009 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions

I doubt practice now matters

they aren’t going to learn anything after game 72. I’d actually prefer the rest, though resting Noah during the actual game makes less sense then :)

USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 30, 2009 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs

ha ha

thats a good point.

Pool and a pond... Pond be good for you.

by SoulEater7 on Mar 30, 2009 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions

All joking aside

I would expect NBA players to be fully able to learn a new play or two no matter how many games they’ve played in a season. Hell, some teams develop new plays before each postseason series, (or at least tweak current plays) to take advantage of a specific matchup they’re going to have.

Why we cannot come up with a single play other than “give to Rose and let him go to work” or “give to Ben and let him shoot” is beyond frustrating. I’ve seen more organization from High School teams.

"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."

by Ugh It Live! on Mar 30, 2009 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions

yeah the high screens and letting Derrick do his thing

works to a point but you have to run plays in practice specifically for those situations. Everyone knows by the end of the game the Bulls are just going to set high screen for Rose and let him drive.

Now thats one problem with Rose being a rookie and not having developed a reliable jump shot yet. They become so predictable. John Salmons along with Gordon can cover him for the bail out shot but soon he’s going to have to use his jumper to win games.

He doesn’t have confidence in just pulling up at the free throw line ala MJ and winning a ball game. So we get these forced drives where he gets stopped.

Thats coaching to me, someone has to put him in the best situation to win if he gets stopped.

Pool and a pond... Pond be good for you.

by SoulEater7 on Mar 30, 2009 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions

I have no problem with that

They’ve played a lot of games this month, and with the largely 7 man rotation the guys are logging a lot of minutes. The small potential for learning in a few practices here and there is more than outweighed by the risk of another injury, imo.

Man-slave, bring me my PB&J!

by wjb1492 on Mar 30, 2009 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions

I am concerned that Salmons injury will keep him out of games. That would be a problem.

by chgobr on Mar 30, 2009 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions

Seriously

we have to play the Pacers again? I could see the Bulls dropping that one much like the Raptor game.

Pool and a pond... Pond be good for you.

by SoulEater7 on Mar 30, 2009 12:32 PM CDT reply actions

did I just say we?

Pool and a pond... Pond be good for you.

by SoulEater7 on Mar 30, 2009 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions

with the mental anguish you (generic you) experience

watching vinny coach, really does make it seem like you are part of the team doesn’t it???

"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"

by Jaina on Mar 30, 2009 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions

you're right.

Pool and a pond... Pond be good for you.

by SoulEater7 on Mar 30, 2009 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions

The Pacer game worries me particularly if Salmons cannot play.

by chgobr on Mar 30, 2009 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions

Granger is getting some love in ESPN the magazine.

‘’Granger can be a Scottie to somebody’s Mike,‘’ says one exec.’‘He just can’t be Mike.’’

Interesting side note, there are six cities that NBA players go to get a hard run, Houston,Chicago,LA,Phily,Atlanta,Vegas?

When is this guy a free agent? He would be Rose’s perfect sidekick wouldn’t he?

Pool and a pond... Pond be good for you.

by SoulEater7 on Mar 30, 2009 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions

When was Granger last known for his ability to defend all five positions?

Or… how about one?

Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!

by tyger1147 on Mar 30, 2009 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions

did indy lock him up?

Pool and a pond... Pond be good for you.

by SoulEater7 on Mar 30, 2009 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions

every game worries me if salmons cannot play

we have no small forwards…

"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"

by Jaina on Mar 30, 2009 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions

and in my humble opinion

Salmons = playoff run MVP.

Pool and a pond... Pond be good for you.

by SoulEater7 on Mar 30, 2009 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions

he definitely has been terrific.

"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"

by Jaina on Mar 30, 2009 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions

Any one else dig torontos head coach last night

he had a couple of strategic moves that i liked, and that last play for caulderon to get to the rack, man that play was beutiful, it was like the seas parted for him, it just looked real pretty. I also liked his “foul the bulls even though they are down and send them to the line” move, it was pretty smart. I wonder if he will be available soon

On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!

by piccolomair on Mar 30, 2009 1:33 PM CDT reply actions

yeah Jay Triano

is a better coach than Vinny
I’d say it’s definitely the coaching that decided the loss yesterday

"...Lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain

by Teri on Mar 30, 2009 11:09 PM CDT up reply actions

which is sad because Jay Triano is a horrible NBA coach. He's probably not back next year as Raps head coach.

Stats with contextual observations, good. Stats with no context, bad. Anecdotal observations unsupported by data, the worst.

by fundamentallysound on Mar 31, 2009 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions

my point exactly

yet he draws up better plays than Vinny out of time outs
just because Ben is so clutch that he hit that last shot in regulation doesn’t make it a good play

"...Lies, damned lies, and statistics."

by Teri on Mar 31, 2009 10:59 PM CDT up reply actions

I'm thinking of making a 'Joakim Noah should get his minutes' fanshot

It’s getting ridiculous.

Joakim Noah: Better than you.

by Prevenge on Mar 30, 2009 1:35 PM CDT reply actions

Soon we will see VDN play his starters for an entire game

because hey they started off hot and we can’t break rhythm.

"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."

- fundamentallysound

by J Theory on Mar 30, 2009 1:58 PM CDT reply actions

Only if Kurt is starting

We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan

by snley on Mar 30, 2009 4:47 PM CDT up reply actions

someone should switch rose and hinrichs jersey

vdn will never know the difference!

On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!

by piccolomair on Mar 30, 2009 5:54 PM CDT up reply actions

Kirk?

by torch on Mar 30, 2009 7:33 PM CDT up reply actions

I can't believe the fucker is still calling him that.

BullsTwo

by Sports2 on Mar 31, 2009 7:18 AM CDT up reply actions

I'm so tired of seeing Brad Miller's old ass play entire 4th quaters

"Whenever Kirk/Ben are in together. Kirk turns into a crappy player, because he tries to freeze Gordon out of the offense." - Andrew7

by gobulls1124 on Mar 30, 2009 2:06 PM CDT reply actions

So is Brad from the looks of it.

He looked like he was going to fall over at one point thudding down the court.

Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.

by cranscape on Mar 30, 2009 5:01 PM CDT up reply actions

Thanks guys....didn't see the game.. but I can surely count of BaB for objective commentary regarding the failure to win this win-able game..

man up!

by exult463 on Mar 30, 2009 2:38 PM CDT reply actions

way too much Kurt and Miller...

…VDN’s lovefest for those two needs to stop.

http://awsomepeoplesearch.com/

by NormVanBeer on Mar 31, 2009 10:15 AM CDT reply actions

he at least needs to stop sending them in together

really its seems like a type of discrimination or something….

On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!

by piccolomair on Mar 31, 2009 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions

exactly...

…he’s discriminating against the GOOD players by putting in WEAK players.

http://awsomepeoplesearch.com/

by NormVanBeer on Mar 31, 2009 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs

i roll my eyes at you sir....

On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!

by piccolomair on Mar 31, 2009 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions

ditto

by sue369 on Mar 31, 2009 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions

ha!

figures…

http://awsomepeoplesearch.com/

by NormVanBeer on Mar 31, 2009 5:52 PM CDT up reply actions

Um, he plays 7 guys a night

He’s not discriminating against anyone. It’s just dumb that Hinrich and Miller always have to come in together, they don’t feed off each other’s whiteness.

Confusion breeds success. If they don't know each other, opponents can't have strategy. GENIUS.

by Ozzie Montana on Mar 31, 2009 5:42 PM CDT up reply actions