Are the Bulls better without Luol Deng?
by SickeyDimpkins on Mar 21, 2009 12:32 PM CDT
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PrintThe Bulls seem to be playing pretty well right now - as good as they've played all year. With Deng hurt, John Salmons has filled in nicely as the # 3 guard. In fact, I am pleasantly surprised by how well he's playing; I did not realize that he is this good. I'm not saying he's a superstar, but he certainly has played better than Luol Deng (especially as a scorer). Who knows if Deng will be back this year or not, but I'm inclined to think they are better off without him. I think he's too timid, too sensitive, and he doesn't do anything on the court particularly well (too bad about his contract). Anyway, I'm wondering what other people think: are the Bulls better without Luol Deng?
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I would not object to having Luol on the team
He’s not a bad player. The problem is, he’s extremely fragile and overpaid, which is a deadly combination in the NBA. So I guess I would say yes. If we could clear his contract right now without receiving anything in return I would probably do it.
"That's a spicy meatball-a!" - Vinny Del Negro
I'd be more inclined to put it as the Bulls can play fine without Lu
It’s hard to answer without knowing whether Lu can get healthy, and exactly what a healthy Lu looks like over a long stretch. Right now I’d say yes, because we know Lu’s not healthy and we know from experience that Lu trying to play while not healthy is ugly. Going forward, it depends on if Lu is healthy, if the whole jealous/unhappy Lu thing is overstated or accurate, and if Vinny and his “Lu-hindering” schemes are still here.
Man-slave, bring me my PB&J!
by wjb1492 on Mar 21, 2009 1:11 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
At the moment i am posting this
the vote is split 6:6
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
Count me in for a "no"
Remember when Luol was coming up? He was touted as the 2nd best player behind LeBron James in his draft class. I’d say that gap in talent has widened quite a bit, but when Lu is healthy and the Bulls aren’t just chucking up crap all game, he’s a very valuable member of the team.
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
by Ugh It Live! on Mar 21, 2009 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions
True. And he's completely misutilized in VDN's "system."
We always knew he’s not a great 1 on 1 guy. He thrives in a more disciplined system. Wait till we get a new coach and he gets healthy. We’ll definitely be better with him.
by Diz on Mar 21, 2009 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Not in his draft class.....
…but in his high school class. If Deng would have decided to go out of high school and be in LeBron’s class, there is NO WAY he’s rated higher than Carmelo, Bosh or D-Wade (or did you forget they were drafted the same year as LeBron).
As for the high school ranking, keep in mind that Felipe Lopez was touted as the number 1 player in his high school class…directly ahead of Allen Iverson. Ultimately, that high school ranking stuff doesn’t mean anything. What you do on the court IN THE LEAGUE is what really counts!!
by lexdiamonds0730 on Mar 21, 2009 7:07 PM CDT up reply actions
They're not better without him, they're just playing well in spite of his absence
It’s easy to admit he’s been having a poor season, but all the excuses we give Rose for his sometimes underwhelming play can be used for Luol Deng. Without structure, or a decided offensive philosophy, players like Deng just wont’ look good. He’s the kind of guy who would thrive in Utah, but probably look like crap in Golden State (or, as it is, Chicago). As long as Vinny is fired and a real head coach and offense are in place next season, I wouldn’t worry about Deng’s abilities. What is a cause for concern, is this idiotic insistence on playing for Great Britain over the summer. He could be rehabbing in the off season, but instead he is just giving management a reason to shop him around.
Confusion breeds success. If they don't know each other, opponents can't have strategy. GENIUS.
by Ozzie Montana on Mar 21, 2009 1:43 PM CDT reply actions 3 recs
Rose is a rookie whose rookie numbers are on par with great guards.
Deng is a FIFTH YEAR PLAYER who doesn’t look a whole lot different today then he did in 2005. Now if Rose is not far from being the same player in 5 years that he is now…hell if he’s the same player next year for that matter…then I’ll be ready to blast him.
All these excuses are ridiculous. He’s either gonna come with it or he isn’t…and at this point, over the past 5 years, the truth is he has not come with it far more than he has. Usually by year 5 in a guys career you know who he is. Not too many guys get noticeably better after this point (one exception being Steve Nash). At this point it may be what you see is what you get. But I agree COMPLETELY with you though Ozzie that Deng has got to stop worrying about the summer basketball and start worrying about being healthy and playing 82 games for the Bulls. You hit the nail right on the head. This whole Europe basketball savior thing may very well be the whole problem with Deng. I’ll stay tuned.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Mar 21, 2009 7:14 PM CDT up reply actions
Referring to Rose and great guards....
…I was saying he’s on par with the rookie seasons of great guards. In no way am I saying he’s on that level now. LONG way to go before we have that conversation.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Mar 21, 2009 7:23 PM CDT up reply actions
Salmons indeed. But if you pay close attention to Salmons' minutes you see...
… that his production increase coincided with his minute increase. But indeed Salmons got better after year 5….much better!!! There are others as well, but it doesn’t happen very often.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Mar 23, 2009 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions
He already does that here
Even hurt, he avg 17.5 pts and 5 double-doubles in December (his best mounth so far). And he didn’t played 5 games… The problem with Deng is that he can’t stay healthy and, like lexdiamonds likes to say, is not a factor in the 4th quarter
Bingo.
If the dude would stay consistent and stay healthy (which really isn’t his fault unless the summer GB circuit is causing him to be fragile) then he’d be one hell of a contributor.
As for the double double love, lets give Tyrus some for having 4 double doubles in a row in Feb. Averaging 18.5 ppg and 11.25 rpg against NO, Dallas, Detroit and Houston (all playoff teams) with another double double coming against Denver to the tune of 21 and 13.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Mar 23, 2009 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions
I think that a combination of Luol Deng and John Salmons at the starting SG and SF
positions will be a good combination. Luol defends OK and Salmons is an upgrade on Defense. Luol can also rebound. I think an advantage is that he and Salmons can take turns on the opposing teams best perimeter player and we don’t lose nothing scoring wise although they both score in different ways.
Deng should benefit from the play of Salmons as I think he is a more willing passer and team player than Ben Gordon is. Salmons is not a chucker to me.
The Bulls could use him, but understanding that he is a piece….a role player. If we can get a better player for Deng then trade him in a heartbeat.
When it comes down to it….Paxs move to get a hungry John Salmons has made it where he has some options now. If deng goes then it is clear that the Bulls will not miss a beat….in fact I would say the same about Ben Gordon as well.
The move to get Salmons may be the move that puts the Bulls on the road to progress finally. I honestly don’t see Deng in the Bulls future any more….the moves Pax is making is showing that he is no longer a homer for his favorite players.
Pax will move Deng in a heartbeat…thanks to Salmons.
I am hoping that Salmons play lights a fire under Dengs ass and he has a chip on his shoulder when he comes back. If Deng can play some inspired ball at SF and Salmons moves to SG then we have the makings of a good team with Derrick Rose at PG.
All we need is a post player and to me he does not have to be an all star PF or C…just someone who is a threat to score on the inside. With Noah and Tyrus energy If I was Pax I would try to go after Eddy Curry again….he is through in NY and he can score in the post…when he is focused.
Eddy Curry is what we could use…if we cannot get Bosh. I have been an Eddy Curry fan and I was disappointed that we let him go. I think he would get back into shape and I think he would have something to prove.
Sorry for going on a tangent but I think Deng can redeem himself. I think if he has any kind of pride he will play his ass off when he is healed.
by Bart71 on Mar 21, 2009 1:50 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Agreed.
Salmons provides a hedge against Gordon’s departure and the luxury of potentially moving Deng. We have another 18-20ppg guy who is an upgrade on defense and makes the Bulls a fairly big team if he’s starting at the 2 guard.
From my personal preference, ideally the Bulls will be able to resign BG and bring his 20ppg off the bench as firepower while trotting out Salmons and Deng in the starting lineup (assuming no blockbuster trades are to made). I would be interested in seeing how Deng’s play responds to playing with Salmons at the 2 as I suspect the ball movement will be a bit more fluid and conducive to his game.
Any more Salmons haters in the house?
by messwiththebull on Mar 22, 2009 8:41 AM CDT up reply actions
Just that Salmons should be seen as a short term option,
since he will likely decline about the time his current contract is up. Until then, he is a worthy starting player.
Maybe we can (but probably not)?
by Granny Waiters on Mar 22, 2009 9:47 AM CDT up reply actions
you could use eddy curry at the buffet
The guy plays no D, rebounds poorly, blocks no shots, has average hands and is slower than just about any other starting C in the league.
He is a health risk, and despite having a wide open starting spot in New York where he could throw up shots to his own detriment he has not shown the least inkling of getting fit.
When you are willing to play 7 people and not start a guy earning that much cash on a team that is struggling to make the playoffs you are defining the guys value very very clearly.
" Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes, that way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. "
I was going to rec this until
you said Eddy Curry.
Do you own a restaurant in Chicago?
"I can accept failure, but I can't accept not trying." -- Michael Jordan
by bennythebull on Mar 22, 2009 9:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Eddy Curry:
He’s almost as good as Michael Sweetney
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
Personally
I’d like to see what he can do when he comes back.
My gripe with Deng is that his game hasn’t expanded like I thought it would. I think he can shoot the 3 but he rarely does.
I thought he could have been a decent post player but I haven’t seen much more than set shots and his slashing to the basket.
I just thought he would develop better offensively. On defense I don’t expect much because he moves kinda slow laterally.
But I’d like to see him with the new guys.
Pool and a pond... Pond be good for you.
I was going to add that I think Salmons is more consistent in 4th quarters and maybe overall.
Deng seems to be MIA around money time. He doesn’t finish as well as Salmons either. Salmons makes the plays when it counts and for that reason I think he should be in over Deng.
Pool and a pond... Pond be good for you.
Good observations of Luol Deng.
Especially the part about the back to the basket game. He could change the dynamic of the Bulls entire team if he’d develop that. He’d add close to 10 ppg to his average if he developed that and at 6’9" he’d be a matchup nightmare at the 3 and would truly be one of the most dangerous players in the league.
This is why he pisses me off so much because he has the physical tools to be so much more than a jump shooting/slashing SF. He could be HELL for opposing players. He could MAKE the coach have to run the offense through him if he’d expand his game.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Mar 21, 2009 7:19 PM CDT up reply actions
there were a few times early in the season
where he was trying to post up and VDN did not like this behavior. i cant remember exactly but i read this.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
Yes
with the aforementioned caveat that he’d be much better than Salmons if we had any semblance of an offensive or defensive gameplan.
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
...Which is why Salmons is actually a better player.
He doesn’t need one particular system, whereas Luol does. That makes Luol seem extremely inflexible.
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
A player needs a good system to play well? I don’t get it. If Luol Deng is a good player, he is a good player. To say that the Bulls need a specific game plan for Luol to excel is to say that he is not a good player. I agree that some styles can improve a player’s performance (e.g., Nash and SSOL), but c’mon… Deng’s mediocre performances are attributable to his weaknesses as a player.
Luol doesn't need a PARTICULAR system.
He needs, like, a system. One that exists.
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
Luol doesn't need a particular one, either
It’s not like the Bulls were high-powered offense during the first 3 seasons of Luol’s career. They have always been a below average offensive team, yet Deng still made great strides in the simplistic Skiles offense.
Confusion breeds success. If they don't know each other, opponents can't have strategy. GENIUS.
by Ozzie Montana on Mar 22, 2009 11:15 PM CDT up reply actions
Hah,
beat you. But with less evidence.
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
Actually, Skiles instilled a very specific system.
It was a half-court system predicated on drive-and-kick, resulting in open jumpers, on offense, and team defense. It was designed to maximize the effectiveness of what the Bulls did well, which was shoot jumpers and exert more effort on defense than the opponent, while hiding the weaknesses of those teams, which was lack of inside presence on offense, and arguably lack of athleticism.
This system was methodical and allowed the Bulls to creep back into and ultimately win a number of games where teams with superior talent opened up sizable leads early, only to fall victim to the Bulls’ superior effort and patient execution.
It was effective, and it was actually fun to watch.
Many times Luol was on the receiving end of the final pass in the half court set, meaning open jumpers. if he was able to hit those open jumpers, then he should also theoretically be able to hit jumpers that come off of pick and rolls or pick and pops under Vinnie Del Negro. And the emphasis on fast breaks should also play to Luol’s strengths, as long as he is willing to run the floor and finish. The fact that he has wilted in VDN’s system is really discouraging.
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
They are better with out Deng period.
I’ve never seen a player get more assumptions of being good than Luol Deng. He hasn’t been a good player forTWO years in a row. God forbid if BG or Tyrus have two bad games in a row. I also don’t believe that Deng and Salmons can co-exist. Deng is a jumpshooting, non-athletc SF. When they did play together, I saw two players who are going to take their share of jumpshots. One has more range and is willing to take the ball to the hole. That’s Salmons. So why put a guy back at that position that you havre to plan a whole offense around? I can see if you have a dominant center that you’re trying to work into an offense or a great Point Guard but a Small Foward? Since When? I thought that was a position where a player is suppose to able to fit around what you’re doing and blend in and get his points in the flow of the offense like Salmons has? And become a factor in other parts of the game like Shawn Marion. Also why is it when a player is playing well at one position, we just assume he can play well at another one too? In other words, why move Salmons from SF to 2-guard if he’s playing well at SF. If the Bulls do this, then to me they are making bad moves just to validate others bad moves like paying Luol all that money. Deng has done nothing to prove he deserves to be on this team next year, let alone the Bulls starting SF.
by Dils on Mar 21, 2009 2:25 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
These are all the points in your rant where I "LOL"
God forbid if BG or Tyrus have two bad games in a row.
Deng is non-athletic.
Deng doesn’t take the ball to the hole.
Teams don’t build around the SF position.
"Whenever Kirk/Ben are in together. Kirk turns into a crappy player, because he tries to freeze Gordon out of the offense." - Andrew7
LOL!! Yeah I just had to get that out..
I’ve just had enough of a guy who got paid that much money getting the benefit of the doubt. " He’s been injured" “The offense isn’t set for his skills” “He’s a great guy”. I’m tired of it. Deng got a huge contract coming off a bad season, turns around and has a worse season before the injury and some people just assume we can throw him back out at SF next year and simply move Salmons over to 2guard. Unbelievable. I swear I’ve seen things out of Tyrus this season that have been better than anything I’ve seen out of Deng since like 2006! We slam Ben for turning the freaking ball over and dribbling too much but hey at least he managed to have a season deserving of some kind of contract. I’m big on what is actually happening on the court not what could be. The facts are he’s an injury prone, non athletic, run and hide when the game gets close SF. I mean COME ON I can’t be the only guy that gets a knot in my stomach when there’s a highlight of Igodala running thecourt, finishing around the basket, extending his arms in the passing lane going for a steal. That’s what a SF is suppose to play like. That’s not Deng.
I hear you Dils.
Deng has redeeming qualities…but I’m not certain he wants to be great. Also, like Ozzie mentioned earlier, the fact that he’s always spending his summers trying to play for England isn’t helping. It’s honorable, but it doesn’t help us at all. Not unless he gets over there and perfects some post moves and brings those back to the league…LOL.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Mar 21, 2009 7:21 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree 100%
As recent as a year ago, people were talking about Deng as a “potential All-Star.” Nobody is saying that anymore, but I never understood it in the first place. He exposed himself last season and this year he exposed the Bulls since they gave him a nice contract based on something other than on-court performance. I think there is some truth to the idea that the team rewarded him for being a nice guy. Every time Deng’s character is mentioned as a positive (which has nothing to do with his basketball ability), I am reminded of Alec Baldwin’s scene in Glengarry Glen Ross:
Nice guy? I don’t give a s***. Good father? F*** you! Go home and play with your kids. You wanna work here – close! You think this is abuse? You think this is abuse, you c***ks*****? You can’t take this, how can you take the abuse you get on a sit? You don’t like it, leave.
Given Dengdini’s patented fourth quarter disappearing acts, I cannot think of a more fitting quote.
I dislike the poll question as it is not specific enough.
I think the Bulls would be better off with Deng healthy and on the team OR Deng healthy and traded for a better player (e.g. Bosh – PLEASE, PLEASE PLEASE!!!).
Maybe we can (but probably not)?
I was listening to the Afternoon Saloon the other day
And Carmen brought up what I think is a good point. “At any time during the Bulls recent road losses did you think ‘Gosh, if only we had Luol Deng we would’ve won that game’?” Never, right?
Luol’s a solid player, but for $12 million a year, you’d think we’d be getting at least a slight difference maker. Yet I’m not sure we’ve got that.
I hate myself for randomly imagining what a real coach would be doing w/ this team.
It’s easily a 45+-win team w/ a healthy Hinrich all year.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
I hate the coach instead.
Easier that way.
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
I do suppose that if the Bulls decide to give up on Deng...
…it should require them to focus more on developing Thomas, Noah and Rose the next year or two while they try to find above-average to great SG & SF to replace Gordon and Deng. The sad thing is, if they did that anyway, and concentrated on making Rose and Thomas the two best players on the team (and potentially “great” players) and Noah a great complementary player, Gordon and Deng would be better than anything you’re likely to find in the 15-20 draft pick areas the Bulls are likely to be in.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
The Bulls should focus on developing...
…Thomas, Rose and Noah regardless of what happens and who else we have on the roster.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Mar 21, 2009 10:32 PM CDT up reply actions
In part, I agree.
Thomas and Rose becoming superstars, or at the very least, two Gilbert Arenas-Caron Butler level types*, is very important.
I know you’re not a fan of Deng, but I think he is a Top-10 type SF. Maybe he’s overpaid, but on a team willing to pay the tax (which I guess the Bulls aren’t), he’s perfectly acceptable.
Either they need to focus on those three and let Deng and Gordon and Hinrich go with Salmons and MIller on the back-burner, or they need to see what they have and work with it.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
I don't hate Deng.
I just don’t like him being mentioned in such high regard by some of you around here when in actuality he’s done next to nothing since the 2007 playoffs.
Truly, who among you can argue that Deng may be our 4th or 5th best player at this point (To this point Rose, Gordon, Salmons, and arguably Tyrus Thomas have all been better than Deng was this season) even if he was healthy?
And top 10 SF? I disagree.
1. LBJ
2. Carmelo
3. Paul Pierce
4. Kevin Durant
5. Danny Granger
6. Caron Butler
7. Andre Iguodala
8. Gerald Wallace
9. Ron Artest
10. Stephen Jackson
11. Josh Howard
12. Hedo Turkoglu
13. Richard Jefferson
14. Rudy Gay
15. JOHN SALMONS
etc….
I really don’t care what order you put them in, but the top 12 on this list are all better on a regular basis than Deng has ever been. And I don’t wanna hear anymore about how Deng is only 23 and he’s gonna get better. We don’t know that anymore. All we know is what he has given us on the court.
I’d rather focus on trying to see what Tyrus Thomas can become than worry about Deng at this point. Like I mentioned in a post above, Deng is in year 5 and by this time you can usually tell what kind of player a person is going to be (again, the NOTABLE exception being Steve Nash who went from good to great around year 9 or so). I think we’ve seen the best of Luol Deng. He may return to being the 18/8 guy he was and if he does then that will be fantastic. I think any of us would take that. But the fact remains that Salmons has filled in admirably for Deng.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Mar 22, 2009 9:05 PM CDT up reply actions
I can’t believe the company you guys put Tyrus in. The player player comparisons are so unrealistic.
The past day I’ve seen Sean Marion, Amare Stoudemire, and now Caron Butler. The stretch is just amazing for a guy thats not showing himself to be anything better than a solid pro who can shine on occasion.
Rose has all star potential. Salmons is a hard working utility belt type of guy, Miller is a smart vet in the twilight of his career. Deng is a solid SF who would start on most teams in the league.
Gordon is a brilliant scorer, Noah is a solid rebounding big with average scoring ability, kirk is…an enigma wrapped in poop, no idea what he is going to end up being.
The teams got talent but not all world and certainly not the personel to win it all. In my opinion you trade Deng if you get a better player back. You do the same with everyone on the team bar Rose.
" Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes, that way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. "
"an enigma wrapped in poop"
Best line I’ve read in a while… And pretty accurate, as were all your other descriptions. I want more.
by Bill Cartwright's Elbow on Mar 22, 2009 10:29 PM CDT up reply actions
If you're listening to people comparing Tyrus to Amare or Caron Butler then that's your problem
Shawn Marion….well that isn’t such a bad comparison, and it’s one that has been made since draft day.
Confusion breeds success. If they don't know each other, opponents can't have strategy. GENIUS.
by Ozzie Montana on Mar 22, 2009 10:51 PM CDT up reply actions
i think Marion is bad a comparison, but
not because Marion is too good. It’s just not a good comparison. There aren’t that many similarities in how they play offense or defense once you get past the superficial athletic stuff to the details.
not listening to them at all
just pointing out the hilarity of comparing rose & thomas to …arenas & butler.
or Tyrus to amare etc.
" Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes, that way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. "
Yeah, Caron Butler, that two-time reserve All Star. What a stretch!!!
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Don’t belittle butler, he is a hell of a player who has paid his dues and has an all roudn game that at its best can pick a team up and carry it on his shoulders.
It’s a massive stretch from an inconsistent pro who has yet to develop an outside jumper or “get” the X’s & O’s side of the game despite 3 years of constant training to a seasoned vet who has actually been to an All Star game and deservedly done so.
Marions a bad comparison in my opinion, just purely a tall guy who also is fast and jumps well. Their games are so different.
I forgot to mention the other hilarious Dennis Rodman comparison from a month or two back.
" Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes, that way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. "
Butler was 27 when he became an All Star.
Thomas is 22. Butler was a rookie putting up a worse TS% than Thomas this year. Suuuuuuuch a stretch that Thomas will ever be a one or two time All Star Reserve.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
I've felt that pretty much in any game without him
The slightest view of Tim Thomas makes me cry.
Confusion breeds success. If they don't know each other, opponents can't have strategy. GENIUS.
by Ozzie Montana on Mar 21, 2009 11:11 PM CDT up reply actions
any time
you have a player who can contribute and he is out we are not better off without him.
"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."
- fundamentallysound
thats kinda general.
Aaron Grey can contribute but he sucks. If he pulls down a rebound well then he’s contributed?
Deng may contribute but if someone does it better then you might have to play that someone else.
I’m just giving you a hard time. I just hope he contributes off the bench. If not then you have to sit BG and if that happens bye bye BG.
Pool and a pond... Pond be good for you.
The question is kinda general
Are we better off not having Deng? Should he be released, traded, placed inactive… A player who averages his numbers not playing is always better than him not playing at all… So not being specific of how we would be without Deng you get a general answer.
No.
"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."
- fundamentallysound
This is bad timing
Salmons coming off a 30 point game and Deng being hurt. Contracts not included nobody can honestly say they wouldn’t want to have Deng around.
No, we are not better
Deng in. Gordon out. That is if you want to focus on the better long term strategy.
Going forward I see far too many lapses in Gordon that will really hurt us than I do from a Luol Deng that only plays 65 games per.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
yea i would still rather have Deng and Salmons then Gordon
at least on this team with new coach
Ben Gordon is the most consistent player on this team. I know what he's good at and more times
than not he’s good at it. He’s a scorer. He’s a 20 pt per game scorer. He’s rarely injured and he starts every season in shape. What the heck is Luol Deng?
Well I'd like to see us resign Gordon and trade Deng and Hinrich
Look if someone told me that Deng would be the player he was 2 years ago and we could resign Ben and platoon him with Salmons at the 2 spot…Great. But the reality is that Deng hasn’t been that player and If I have a choice of Deng on and off games with a sprinkle of missed games because of injuries, compared to BG where I know he’s playing every game and I know what I’m getting from him, I’ll take BG. It’s not as easy as people think around here to replace 21pts a game from a volume shooter. That’s the important thing about BG that people don’t equate. He doesn’t need a million shots to get his points and that’s perfect for Rose. I dont know what I can hang my hat on with Deng.
Ben Gordon just does not deliver reliable production to offset the immense weaknesses
he carries on the defensive end. We’re never going to get anywhere when good teams can merely isolate Gordon to tear up our defense. If you didn’t see the Lakers dismantle the Bulls with Gordon on the floor on Saturday then you should download the game and watch it. Watch it again if you have to.
We’ll never make it beyond the 2nd round with Ben Gordon as our shooting guard. I love the scoring, but it needs to be 10 points more per game to counterbalance what Ben Gordon cannot do for on the defensive end.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Mar 23, 2009 9:05 AM CDT up reply actions
But he was guarding...Kobe.
Kobe does that to EVERYBODY. The problem with that assesment is that the Bulls had the best defense in basketball a few years back with BG at the 2. Ok so if we don’t have BG at the 2 then who? Honestly I think the rap on BG’s defense and how it effects everything else is overrated. I’ve watch Salmons get burned by guys like Richard Jefferson so what difference does it really make? Having the luxury of knowing what you’re getting from a guy is invaluable to a team’s success. I don’t know for sure if Salmons in going to go for 30 or for 12 in a given game. Also part of the reason Salmons is having huge games is because he’s playing with a spread floor with a PG and a 2-guard that have to be accounted for. My point is that I don’t think its as easy as people think to replace Ben. As oppose to replacing the irreplaceable Deng. It onlt took a couple of weeks to do that.
Ariza posted him up as well... not only Kobe
"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."
- fundamentallysound
And Ariza scored on or two buckets.
Let me see you go try to stop an NBA caliber player from scoring one or two baskets…I don’t care if he’s 6’1" or 6’10. You cannot stop everyone all the time. These guys are all simply too skilled for that.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Mar 23, 2009 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions
Yes Ben Gordon is great
Teams are going to take advantage of Ben Gordons lack of defense and his height. It doesn’t matter if it’s Kobe or Ariza.
You want me to stop an NBA caliber player then set it up and we’ll see what happens…. I mean I was just asking for that in my last post. You know me bragging that I can stop an NBA caliber player.
"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."
- fundamentallysound
Agreed again Dils.
A preseason list of the top 10 shooting guards had:
1. Kobe
2. D-Wade
3. Allen Iverson
4. T-Mac
5. Iguodala
6. Ray Allen
7. Joe Johnson
8. Corey Maggette
9. Jason Richardson
10. Kevin Martin
By my count, I see 3 guys who could be considered good defenders. Kobe, D-Wade and Iguodala. Honestly Kobe is overrated as a defender. Sure he’ll check somebody and get a big stop here and there but he’s no great defender all game long. And D-Wade takes a lot of chances. For every steal he gets playing the passing lanes, he gets burned 2 or 3 times trying. My point being, there aren’t many defensive juggernauts out there at the 2. Most guys in the league are very AVERAGE defenders and Gordon fits right in there.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Mar 23, 2009 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions
Brandon Roy
wouldn’t he be on a preseason Top 10 SG List?
He is a good defender.
Wade- I didn’t want to complain that Wade gets a lot of calls because he has won a Championship and if you lead your team to a Championship you deserve calls.
But I do agree more with all the fans that were mad during the last Bulls Heat game that complained that he reaches and gets arm a lot on most of his steals.
The end of the Det. Heat game yesterday was a joke. I was suprised that the biased ABC/ESPN announcers almost called Wade out for fouling Stucky on the last shot instead of praising his late game defense. I hope he stops getting these calls in the playoffs and the Heat find themselves with Wade having 3 early fould most games.
I just grabbed a random list to illustrate my point about how they're aren't...
….many great defenders at the 2 spot.
Here is the list I grabbed by the way.
http://thehoopdoctors.com/online2/2008/10/top-10-nba-shooting-guards-2008-09-season/
But certainly Brandon Roy belongs on that list. An oversight on my part for not noticing he was there. And I’d add Roy to the list of guys who defend. But that doesn’t change the fact that there aren’t many above average to great defenders at this spot.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Mar 23, 2009 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions
OK. So would you guys want to get rid of him too since...
…you don’t find him to be a good defender?
Whether you think he’s a good defender or not, it further illustrates my point. Gordon is not the liability people think he is because he doesn’t give up THAT much more than most other 2 guards in the league.
Yeah people will pick on him with some post ups here and there, but the overall end result isn’t much different than had most other shooting guards been on the floor.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Mar 23, 2009 9:32 PM CDT up reply actions
Dude, settle down.
Who said anything about getting rid of him? He’s a Top-10 offensive player. He’s a below-average defender. Those things do have some balancing to do, no? How you extrapolated what I said about Roy into some rant about Gordon… you have some things going on in your head.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
I think the point he was making
was that if there is an argument for guys like Brandon Roy and Ray Allen in terms of their value to teams despite shotty defense then then why can’t BG be given that same slack in terms of his value here. You know Dwayne Wade is great but correct me if I’m mistaken, wasn’t he doing a fair share of guarding BG when he was going off for 40? If so then why isn’t it pointed out that Wade and Chalmers did a terrible job defending BG and Rose in that game? Perception is BG’s problem with fans. He’s short so there is NO way he can be better than a guy 6’6. I made a comment a while back that if BG was 6’6 and played the same way, no one would complain about anything he does. We’d be comparing him to Micheal Redd, Gilbert Arenas, or Reggie Miller. Because that’s who and what he is but people just can’t get past his height to see it. When I start hearing comments that Hinrich should start ahead of BG, it makes no sense to anyone who’s looking at it objectively. I think Pax realizes that it’s going to be difficult to make up his production and I bet BG will be back next year.
Dils, you are a lot better than...
…me at hammering home these points. Thanks.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Mar 24, 2009 9:50 AM CDT up reply actions
great, but I've nevered knocked Gordon for his defense
I’m pretty sure I’m good at seeing him for what he is. But of course, we all think that. I just found it an unusual reply to myself. All I was pointing out was that Brandon Roy is not a good defender. That’s all. Nothing more. Anything else read into my state is projection, inference, whatever.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Tyger, you ask who said anything about getting rid of him???
You act like you don’t spend a lot of time here. You know full well there are plenty of people around here advocating getting rid of Gordon. In the end we may have no choice because he may not want to come back.
As for the “balance” you speak of in your post, this is exactly the point I make. That Ben Gordon is a balanced as you’re gonna get outside of guys like Kobe, Wade, etc… If you really look at it, you’ll notice that most guys are in the same boat. Outside of the superstar level players, it’s rare that guys offer up much more than they surrender at the other end…especially at the 2 and 3 positions. That’s why these “Gordon plays no defense” arguments trip me out.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Mar 24, 2009 9:48 AM CDT up reply actions
okay, I guess I meant, "Where did I say "get rid of him"?"
Although, while not here, I have said the best thing for this team might be to let Gordon go and make Thomas the No. 2 option. But that’s a 2 steps back, 3 steps forward sort of thing.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Again, it's not that you specifically said let him go.
It’s the inference by many here that we should let Gordon go. Now there are some who say that Salmons can replace him or whatever. That’s their right to feel that way. But for those who say we should let him go because of his “lack of defense”…now I have a problem with that. That’s why I point out that there are only a handful of 2’s in the league that play stellar defense (and even that is debatable). Most are average and Gordon fits right in that category.
Your Roy comment made me curious though. I wanted to see how Roy and Gordon matched up against one another. They have played each other fairly evenly with Gordon shooting a better overall fg% and averaging about 5 more ppg in head to head matchups (I guess he wasn’t a defensive liability there) but Roy has a few more rbds and assts. Ultimately though Roy’s team has won 3 times and Gordon’s only once in the head 2 head matchups.
Upon further review while comparing Roy to Dwyane Wade, Gordon has done a better job defensively on Roy than Wade has and Roy’s teams have gone 4-2 against Wade’s teams (Wade does average 29 ppg against Roy though).
http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=roybr01&p2=wadedw01
by lexdiamonds0730 on Mar 24, 2009 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions
Roy only looks like a good defender
He’s pretty atrocious in reality.
Confusion breeds success. If they don't know each other, opponents can't have strategy. GENIUS.
by Ozzie Montana on Mar 23, 2009 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions
I can.
Why is everyone holding out for hope and not saying the truth? Deng is not the player we thought he would be. Even with a guy that is currently playing his position better than he’s ever played it. The only thing Deng does better is rebound. Seriously. Let’s go by what’s in front of us here. The fact that the guy is now officially injury prone, should be enough for Pax to try to deal him. Let alone all the other things he has failed to improve at. I said on an earlier comment that Tyrus has showed me more than Deng and I stand by that. I can’t believe that so many people are here willing to give this guy that much slack. Why? What has this guy shown us in 2 years that gives anybody an idea that he will fit in and improve when he’s back?
If we made him available Bart, somebody would take a chance on him.
Look at how many people in here are blinded by the “potential” that Deng brings to the table. I often refer to the pre-season write up where the ESPN writers had Luol Deng listed as one of the top 5 SF in the league. The “superstar” kool-aid was being drank by a lot of folks. Some are still drinking it. Deng, when healthy, is indeed an asset and will be valuable to somebody. But as I alluded to before, he doesn’t do us much good with the team we have. He’s much better suited to play alongside a top tier player or two. That way his deficiencies aren’t as obvious.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Mar 23, 2009 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions
why does everyone hold out?
He has at least had good seasons?
Theres a zillion posts supporting Tyrus and he has never had more than a mediocre season peppered with potential.
" Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes, that way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. "
Deng looks to have peaked...and may be regressing, while....
…Tyrus Thomas looks to have finally grasped a bit of the understanding necessary to play at the pro level. He has clearly taken a step forward this year and the prospects are exciting of him coming back next year an even better player.
Deng has been solid, but has also been regressing for each of the past two seasons. He needs to follow Ozzie’s advice and not play in GB this summer and see if he can put together a healthy 2009-2010 campaign in Chicago.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Mar 23, 2009 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions
Who took Hughes, Noc, and Gooden? Go figure!
As Bret Maverick once said (yes, I go back a ways) “You can fool some of the people some of the time…and those are pretty good odds.”
In all fairness....
…Hughes has been much closer to being an all-star in his career than Deng has been. But you are right. Deng is a 6’9" SF with an array of skills. His skill set would be better for a team with more established top level talent…for example the Suns, Lakers, Pistons, Magic, Spurs, etc…
Teams that take the pressure off of him to be on top of his game nightly because these teams have guys who WILL be on top of their games pretty much nightly. On this Bulls team, we need far more than “regular” games out of Deng when he’s playing.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Mar 22, 2009 9:20 PM CDT up reply actions
i'm pretty sure Hughes made an all-star team
by Basketball Smurf on Mar 23, 2009 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions
No, he didn't
Confusion breeds success. If they don't know each other, opponents can't have strategy. GENIUS.
by Ozzie Montana on Mar 23, 2009 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions
I guess the Bulls are doing their job if they're going for PR blast.
2 to 1 against Deng.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
More condemnation of Nocioni
You are what you’re compared against, perhaps. This conversation shifted dramatically with the acquisition of Salmons and subtraction of Noc.
by Bill Cartwright's Elbow on Mar 22, 2009 10:32 PM CDT reply actions
Problem with Salmon is
That when it comes time to extend he is going to be in his 30’s and not going to be improving.
" Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes, that way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. "
And won't be nearly as good anymore
Unless he’s going to be a backup, I could care less if he’s affordable.
Confusion breeds success. If they don't know each other, opponents can't have strategy. GENIUS.
by Ozzie Montana on Mar 22, 2009 10:47 PM CDT up reply actions
Exactly
Johnny Salmons is pretty much peaking at present.
" Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes, that way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. "
so deal with it when he declines
There is a lot of money committed to Deng which may tie us up in trying to improve the team. We can get along fine without him, which is being proven right now. So what if Salmons is peaking? He’ll still be good for a few years. Let’s improve the team in other areas while Salmons is riding high.
Pretty much?
At 29, he doesn’t have much upside. But it’s very possible (and looking and more and more likely) that he’ll stay the way he is for another 3/4 years or so.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Mar 23, 2009 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Err... if he's playing 40 minutes and scoring 20+ a game, he's not going to cost 30% of what Deng does
Just like every other NBA player with a pulse, he’s going to take as much as he can get.
Let’s revisit this in a few years when Salmons’ deal is up and he’s over 30. If he gets half of what Deng has I’ll be shocked.
by Stay Chisel on Mar 23, 2009 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions
What are the general economic conditions?
I’d be surprised if Deng would get half of what Deng has now, and that’s without even looking at Deng the player.
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